Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:

The message
from (sarah) contains these words:

We lived at the top of a hill just north of Edmonton. My mother (who
learned to drive in England) regularly had to reverse her Mini up to our
drive when the roads were icy, which was most of the winter; she told us
it was standard practice in such circumstances. I think she kept a sack
of sand or something to put in the boot in the winter to increase
traction.

Wow! A woman who can reverse!

ducks and runs awaaaaayyy...

No point. I can use all available gears :-)

regards
sarah


--
Think of it as evolution in action.

Martin wrote:

On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 08:40:49 +0100, (sarah)
wrote:

Martin wrote:

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 20:51:23 +0100, (sarah)
wrote:

Martin wrote:

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 16:53:48 +0100, (sarah)
wrote:

Martin wrote:

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 15:28:38 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:
[-]
In that case I have been an organic gardener all my life. And
yet, I still do not go along with much of the strictures of the
cult.

Are you referring to the self flagellation on the midden bit?

There's a lot I didn't know. Perhaps that explains the plague of
caterpillars...

... and frogs?

Haven't had a plague of frogs. I guess the regular sacrifices of slugs
was satisfactory. Must start a midden for next year.

We have a plague of frogs.

Ah, well. You know what to do :-)

I do?

Sacrifice molluscs. Worth a try, and easier than foreskins ;-)

It must be Friday...

regards
sarah


--
Think of it as evolution in action.

The message
from Martin contains these words:

It will make you feel really good to know that all public
transport is on strike in NL next Thursday.

It won't. The news might filter through to our lot...

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from Martin contains these words:
On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 17:08:36 +0100, (sarah)
wrote:

We have a plague of frogs.

Ah, well. You know what to do :-)

I do?

Sacrifice molluscs. Worth a try, and easier than foreskins ;-)

It must be Friday...

.... not battered foreskins again?

You been to Pirbright Camp too?

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from (sarah) contains these words:

We were talking about Edmonton. I assumed the real one, in London, I meant
the real Enfield, next door to Edmonton, London, GB.

Ah. There are many Edmontons; the original must be attractive, wherever
it is. Seem to be fewer Enfields, though.

Then why did so many Edmontonians spread so far abroad and in so many
directions?

ITWSBT

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

"sarah" wrote in message
k...
Dan Welch wrote:

"sarah" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher wrote:

"sarah" wrote in message
...
Franz Heymann wrote:

"The Reids" wrote in message
...
As I negotiated the north circular this morning a voice on the


[..]

Manure is used by both organic and conventional systems.

Do they really use manure in 'conventional' systems?

Absolutely. Human as well as everything else -- when they can get it.
And, to be fair, as far as I know Organic producers are allowed a
certain proportion of manure from non-organic systems, provided it's
composted and doesn't contain prohibited substances.

Ummm... that's not actually true for organic *or* conventional growers.

Disproven not only by your own admission (see below), but by the
published regulations and standards for both types of farming, and a
conversation this morning with the Soil Association.

My comment re the Italian growers was meant - as I thought would be
obvious - to show that they were the exception rather than the rule. Whilst
the Soil Association say that growers *can* use animal manures it's a simple
truth that organic growers do not use them for salads which are bought by
processors. The Soil Association are involved in organic standards and not
food safety standards. All produce for bagged salads are bought on the
assurance of crop- and land use history. This includes non usage of animal
manures - with very few exceptions. This is true for organic and
conventional crops; conventional (which this thread was originally debating)
even more than organic as the relatively low nutrienet status and high bulk
of composted manure makes for an expensive soil conditioner when chemicals
are cheaper and easier to apply.

As regards organic growers, I suggest you review the Organic Standards,
and use some common sense. Organic farmers must maintain soil fertility;
traditional mixed farms utilising rotations -- and even those that buy
in manure -- rely on animal manures to add nutrients to the soil of
particular fields. It's a basic principle of organic farming.

Perhaps you should use some "common sense" and realise that organic farmers
have to conform to both organic and food safety standards. Again, I am only
speaking from an area I know: bagged salads. Organic farmers who supply us
are not mixed farms, they are salad producers only. They use chemicals and
processed green manures (ie, rotted vegetable products) rather than animal
manures. All applications are approved by their organic approval body. The
sanitising tecniques available to processors are not as effective for
organic as they are for conventional products and that could leave a serious
hazard produced over the shelf life of the product if Salmonella or E.coli,
or any one of the other intestinal bacteria, were not initially eradicated.
Eradication can never be as effective as the absence of bacteria in the
first place and so we aim to avoid sources of contamination on the land: in
other words, not using animal manures.
It's true that well-rotted animal manures should not have pathogens as the
composting process should raise the temperature to a level where the compost
is effectively Pasteurised. However, it's hard to ensure that this happens
in use and safer / easier to use alternatives.


The Soil
Association Organic Standards permit the use of animal manures, even on
fields used to grow salad crops *PROVIDED* that the manures are
composted (which markedly reduces the population of undesirable
organisms as well as improving the quality of the manure), AND the
manured crops are left for the specified time before harvest. Organic
regs require these delays; the same are recommended for conventional
systems by the FSA (see below).

Soil Association standards and the Food Standards Agency do allow the use of
animal manures. I never said they didn't. As discussed above, though, they
are not used by suppliers to processors or the supermarkets in general in
this country. I forget the exact parameters - my notes on this are at work -
but it's something like the compost must be at least six months matured,
should have reached a certain internal temperature, then should be
incorporated into the soil and some time - I think it's around six months
for salad crops - should elapse before cropping.



As regards conventional growers, just contemplate the piles of manure
and sewage sludge going onto arable. The Animal By-Products legislation
specifically *permits* the application of manure (fresh or composted) to
agricultural lands, unless the local authority considers said manure to
be hazardous for some particular reason.

I work for a salad processor, mainly dealing with our suppliers, and
none*
of our suppliers use any kind of manure on their fields - animal or
human.
It's simply not worth it from a cost (in terms of lost sales / bad
publicity) / benefit terms. Manure has to be heated to a high temperature
to kill off all pathogens and it's not easy to ensure even heating to
this
temperature, particularly with the weather we've been having recently!
It's not legal to spread human sewage sludge on fields where crops are
grown, hasn't been for some years now.

I beg your pardon? 'crops' as in salad crops, or other arable? I think
you'll find composted sewage sludge is perfectly acceptable as a soil
improver on standard arable, and a brief google finds no record of a ban
on its use on salads, although I'd think it inadvisable given the likely
number of pathogens and parasites. The Soil Association does not permit
its use anywhere because of this and the likely loading of heavy metals
and other contaminants.

I don't know why you've brought arable crops into the discussion: they are
of a much lower microbiological risk than salad crops and so are subject to
different standards. I think you may also be mistaking legal applicationto
industry best practises, and confusing Soil Association regs with other
organic certification body regulations or organic guidelines in general.


I have been unable to find any record of a ban on the use of other
animal manures on salad crops. The 2002 draft *guidelines for the use of
manures* 'managingfarmmanures.pdf' from the FSA website
(www.food.gov.uk) advises against the application of fresh manures
within 6 months of harvest of a 'ready to eat crop'; 4 months from the
last presence of livestock on the land, and 2 months from the last
application of a composted manure. That certainly does not suggest a
ban.


It's not illegal to use animal manures; it is illegal to use human manure on
salad crops.


*actually we buy from an Italian organic supplier who use composted cow
muck, but have so many records of composting temperature etc etc etc that
they are sure it doesn't pose a threat, but they really are the only
supplier.

So why on earth did you say no organic or conventional growers use
manure? Use of animal manures is standard practice for arable crops, and
reasonably common, with due care and attention to standards, for
saladings. And long may it continue to be so.

I wouldn't be suprised to see their use on arable crops - it's something I
know little about, but as I've said several times, the use of animal manure
on conventional salad crops is something I've never come across and
certainly wouldn't expect to see in Europe for crops grown for processing /
supermarket supply, and the use is extremely rare in organic farming for the
same crops - the Italian supplier being the exception that proves the rule.

regards
sarah


--
Think of it as evolution in action.

Martin wrote:
On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 12:36:28 +0100, "Mike Lyle"
wrote:

Tim Challenger wrote:
On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 09:59:20 +0200, Martin wrote:

On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 08:40:49 +0100,
(sarah)
wrote:

Martin wrote:

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 20:51:23 +0100,
(sarah)
wrote:

Martin wrote:

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 16:53:48 +0100,
(sarah) wrote:

Martin wrote:

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 15:28:38 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:
[-]
In that case I have been an organic gardener all my life.
And yet, I still do not go along with much of the
strictures
of the cult.

Are you referring to the self flagellation on the midden
bit?

There's a lot I didn't know. Perhaps that explains the
plague
of caterpillars...

... and frogs?

Haven't had a plague of frogs. I guess the regular sacrifices
of
slugs was satisfactory. Must start a midden for next year.

We have a plague of frogs.

Ah, well. You know what to do :-)

I do?

Become a Jew and leave the country?

Where do I sign? I'm rather attached to my first-born.

and the snippy bit?

Horses and stable doors, since you ask.

Mike.

In article ,
Martin wrote:
On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 16:47:55 +0100, (sarah)
wrote:

Ah. There are many Edmontons; the original must be attractive, wherever
it is. Seem to be fewer Enfields, though.

There are at least to Harry Enfields and in my youth there were plenty
of Royal Enfields.

Not to say Lee Enfields.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Martin wrote:
On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 16:47:55 +0100, (sarah)
wrote:

Ah. There are many Edmontons; the original must be attractive,
wherever
it is. Seem to be fewer Enfields, though.

There are at least to Harry Enfields and in my youth there were
plenty
of Royal Enfields.

Not to say Lee Enfields.

And Lee Metfords.

Franz

"Martin" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 17:08:36 +0100, (sarah)
wrote:


We have a plague of frogs.

Ah, well. You know what to do :-)

I do?

Sacrifice molluscs. Worth a try, and easier than foreskins ;-)

It must be Friday...

... not battered foreskins again?

Calamari?

Franz

The message
from Martin contains these words:
On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 21:46:34 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:
"Martin" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 17:08:36 +0100, (sarah)
wrote:


We have a plague of frogs.

Ah, well. You know what to do :-)

I do?

Sacrifice molluscs. Worth a try, and easier than foreskins ;-)

It must be Friday...

... not battered foreskins again?

Calamari?

exactly :-((

Squid rides? Mutato nomine de te fabula narratur....

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:
In article ,
Martin wrote:
On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 16:47:55 +0100, (sarah)
wrote:

Ah. There are many Edmontons; the original must be attractive, wherever
it is. Seem to be fewer Enfields, though.

There are at least to Harry Enfields and in my youth there were plenty
of Royal Enfields.

Not to say Lee Enfields.

I have one of its precursors, an Enfield musket. (Dum Dum Armoury pattern)

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these words:
"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Martin wrote:
On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 16:47:55 +0100, (sarah)
wrote:

Ah. There are many Edmontons; the original must be attractive,
wherever
it is. Seem to be fewer Enfields, though.

There are at least to Harry Enfields and in my youth there were
plenty
of Royal Enfields.

Not to say Lee Enfields.

And Lee Metfords.

Are we having a competition for lateral movement?

Martini Enfield.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from Martin contains these words:

Cassa Bianco?

New Shrub product? Or would that be Casa Bianca?

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

"sarah" wrote in message
. ..
Franz Heymann wrote:

"sarah" wrote in message
...
Mike Lyle wrote:
[-]

Has it perhaps not crossed some minds round here that Franz
was
just
conceivably not posting without having placed at least the
extremity
of his lingual organ in something like the general area of one
of
the
more buccal regions of his oral anatomy?

Which is why I enquired about the sarcasm. But he is rather
anti-organic at the best of times.

Not quite.
I am strongly anti-organic *faddism*.
The world would be starving if all foods had to be produced along
the
strict lines laid down by the organic faddists.

Possibly. There are any number of facts and figures hurled about by
pros
and antis, but the only real way to disprove that particular
hypothesis
is by doing it. Note that comment and others like it, including your
remark about organic gardening, appear with such frequency that you
seem
to be speaking from ignorance and prejudice rather than a measured
disregard for fads.

I repeat with more emphasis than befo

The world would be starving if all foods had to be produced along the
strict lines laid down by the organic faddists. It is an undisputed
fact that most of the food is at present produced without paying much
attention to the rules of organic faddism. It is also a fact that
organic farming gives smaller yields than common farming. It is a
third fact that the world does not produce enough food to allow all of
its population to enjoy nutritionally adequate meals.

Franz