On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 09:04:00 +0100, newsb wrote:

In article , sarah
writes

Blue Ice! :-)


And beware the yellow snow...

"Watch out where those Huskies go,
and don't you eat that yellow snow."
--
Tim C.

Dan Welch wrote:

"sarah" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher wrote:

"sarah" wrote in message
...
Franz Heymann wrote:

"The Reids" wrote in message
...
As I negotiated the north circular this morning a voice on the


[..]

Manure is used by both organic and conventional systems.

Do they really use manure in 'conventional' systems?

Absolutely. Human as well as everything else -- when they can get it.
And, to be fair, as far as I know Organic producers are allowed a
certain proportion of manure from non-organic systems, provided it's
composted and doesn't contain prohibited substances.

Ummm... that's not actually true for organic *or* conventional growers.

Disproven not only by your own admission (see below), but by the
published regulations and standards for both types of farming, and a
conversation this morning with the Soil Association.

As regards organic growers, I suggest you review the Organic Standards,
and use some common sense. Organic farmers must maintain soil fertility;
traditional mixed farms utilising rotations -- and even those that buy
in manure -- rely on animal manures to add nutrients to the soil of
particular fields. It's a basic principle of organic farming. The Soil
Association Organic Standards permit the use of animal manures, even on
fields used to grow salad crops *PROVIDED* that the manures are
composted (which markedly reduces the population of undesirable
organisms as well as improving the quality of the manure), AND the
manured crops are left for the specified time before harvest. Organic
regs require these delays; the same are recommended for conventional
systems by the FSA (see below).

As regards conventional growers, just contemplate the piles of manure
and sewage sludge going onto arable. The Animal By-Products legislation
specifically *permits* the application of manure (fresh or composted) to
agricultural lands, unless the local authority considers said manure to
be hazardous for some particular reason.

I work for a salad processor, mainly dealing with our suppliers, and none*
of our suppliers use any kind of manure on their fields - animal or human.
It's simply not worth it from a cost (in terms of lost sales / bad
publicity) / benefit terms. Manure has to be heated to a high temperature
to kill off all pathogens and it's not easy to ensure even heating to this
temperature, particularly with the weather we've been having recently!
It's not legal to spread human sewage sludge on fields where crops are
grown, hasn't been for some years now.

I beg your pardon? 'crops' as in salad crops, or other arable? I think
you'll find composted sewage sludge is perfectly acceptable as a soil
improver on standard arable, and a brief google finds no record of a ban
on its use on salads, although I'd think it inadvisable given the likely
number of pathogens and parasites. The Soil Association does not permit
its use anywhere because of this and the likely loading of heavy metals
and other contaminants.

I have been unable to find any record of a ban on the use of other
animal manures on salad crops. The 2002 draft *guidelines for the use of
manures* 'managingfarmmanures.pdf' from the FSA website
(www.food.gov.uk) advises against the application of fresh manures
within 6 months of harvest of a 'ready to eat crop'; 4 months from the
last presence of livestock on the land, and 2 months from the last
application of a composted manure. That certainly does not suggest a
ban.


*actually we buy from an Italian organic supplier who use composted cow
muck, but have so many records of composting temperature etc etc etc that
they are sure it doesn't pose a threat, but they really are the only
supplier.

So why on earth did you say no organic or conventional growers use
manure? Use of animal manures is standard practice for arable crops, and
reasonably common, with due care and attention to standards, for
saladings. And long may it continue to be so.

regards
sarah


--
Think of it as evolution in action.

Tim Challenger wrote:

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 09:04:00 +0100, newsb wrote:

In article , sarah
writes

Blue Ice! :-)


And beware the yellow snow...

"Watch out where those Huskies go,
and don't you eat that yellow snow."

Yellow snow is the least of it. If you don't clean up after the dog in a
snowy winter, spring brings unpleasant surprises.

regards
sarah

--
Think of it as evolution in action.

Martin wrote:

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 08:08:39 +0100, (sarah)
wrote:

Martin wrote:

On Wed, 6 Oct 2004 17:41:55 +0100, (sarah)
wrote:

Mary Fisher wrote:

"sarah" wrote in message
...
[-]
Manure is used by both organic and conventional systems.

Do they really use manure in 'conventional' systems?

Absolutely. Human as well as everything else -- when they can get it.
And, to be fair, as far as I know Organic producers are allowed a
certain proportion of manure from non-organic systems, provided it's
composted and doesn't contain prohibited substances.

It's truly amazing. Read the Defra website about what is allowed in
certain circumstance, it's in the derogation appendix.

I don't need to :-)
I've got a copy of the old Organic Standards (they were revised
recently, but a new copy costs serious money),

UK Govt. and EU regulations controlling Organic food production are
all available free on the web.

Members of the Soil Association are bound by additional rules in the
Organic Standards published by the Soil Association. Members of Demeter
(the biodynamic standard) have different additional standards; members
of Organic Farmers and Growers may have additional standards (I don't
know). Having skimmed briefly through some of the UK gov Organic
Standards in the May)4 Compendium, the SA Standards at least are far
more detailed. As a single example, they specify the length of time
various manures must be composted before application; I can find no
requirement that manures be composted in the UK Gov regs, although
composting is known to reduce the numbers of pathogenic organisms.

plus memories of several
conversations with the Soil Association about it. Be fair -- as a
general rule, bear in mind the Organic Standards are a sort of common
denominator, intended to encourage a reasonable number of farmers on a
wide range of soils to get into organic production,
plus the Standards
cannot under any circumstances permit anything that might lower animal
welfare standards.

Do organic standards/regulations cover animal welfare?

It's worth taking care to distinguish between the different standards
:-) For example, my understanding is that the Soil Association Standards
set higher, er, standards (in terms of density of birds/acre,
birds/pop-hole/building, that sort of thing) for the definition of
'free-range' than do the Organic Farmer and Grower standards. Certainly
the Soil Association Standards make it clear that no SA producer is
permitted actions/inactions that result in lower livestock welfare. For
example, while they would rather producers did not rely on
vaccination/prophylaxis to prevent various livestock ailments, they do
not ban them entirely, but require a producer to satisfy the committee
that no other method will serve the purpose on their holding.


I know of producers who have not joined the SA
because they feel the Organic Standards are too low; other, conventional
farmers feel the Standards are too restrictive.

It all depends on what one understands organic to mean. My wife grows
veg. in an allotment AKA gardening club, where no chemicals are
allowed. In my opinion that is real SRA organic gardening. I can also
see that to produce food in bulk this way is not a practical
proposition. Incidentally the land was originally used for bulb
production, samples of the ground were taken and analysed in a lab.
before it was used for veg production as there was a fear that the
land might be contaminated with heavy metals used in bulb production,
it wasn't.

Sensible, as bulb production made much use of OCs, if I recall. As far
as it goes, I tend to take small-o 'organic' to mean any producer
avoiding the use of chemicals they think are harmful. Which is fair
enough. Large-o 'Organic' producers work to published standards based on
research thought to indicate which chemicals/techniques are harmful,
plus, probably, a large dollop of personal opinion :-)

regards
sarah


--
Think of it as evolution in action.

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 12:03:01 +0100, sarah wrote:

Tim Challenger wrote:

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 09:04:00 +0100, newsb wrote:

In article , sarah
writes

Blue Ice! :-)


And beware the yellow snow...

"Watch out where those Huskies go,
and don't you eat that yellow snow."

Yellow snow is the least of it. If you don't clean up after the dog in a
snowy winter, spring brings unpleasant surprises.

regards
sarah

I know.
You ever been to Austria in the early Spring?

--
Tim C.

Following up to Franz Heymann

What interests me is any precautions that might (or not) be
appropriate to the use of horse manure on allotments?

There is a reason why the cooking of foods was invented.

I do sometimes cook lettuce, but not often.
--
Mike Reid
Wasdale-Lake district-Thames path-London "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

Tim Challenger wrote:

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 12:03:01 +0100, sarah wrote:

Tim Challenger wrote:

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 09:04:00 +0100, newsb wrote:

In article , sarah
writes

Blue Ice! :-)


And beware the yellow snow...

"Watch out where those Huskies go,
and don't you eat that yellow snow."

Yellow snow is the least of it. If you don't clean up after the dog in a
snowy winter, spring brings unpleasant surprises.

I know.
You ever been to Austria in the early Spring?

No -- is it worse than our backyard in Edmonton the first year we had a
dog? We live and learn. Fast, if we're lucky :-)

regards
sarah


--
Think of it as evolution in action.

Following up to Martin

There is a reason why the cooking of foods was invented.

I do sometimes cook lettuce, but not often.

Do you eat mushrooms uncooked in salads?

Rarely. I eat raw beef sometimes.
Do you eat raw cucumbers?
--
Mike Reid
Wasdale-Lake district-Thames path-London "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

Following up to sarah

You ever been to Austria in the early Spring?

No -- is it worse than our backyard in Edmonton the first year we had a
dog? We live and learn. Fast, if we're lucky :-)

Freind of mine used to live in Edmonton.
--
Mike Reid
Wasdale-Lake district-Thames path-London "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

The message
from newsb contains these words:
In article , sarah
writes

Blue Ice! :-)


And beware the yellow snow...

Husband to wife:

"Our lass' new boyfriend is a bit forward. Have you seen the lawn this
morning?"

"No: what's he done on it, made a snowman or something?"

"I wish! Our lass' name is all across it in yellow snow..."

"Well, you were young once. I find it sort-of touching."

"Maybe, but it's in her handwriting."

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 13:43:00 +0100, sarah wrote:

Tim Challenger wrote:

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 12:03:01 +0100, sarah wrote:

Tim Challenger wrote:

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 09:04:00 +0100, newsb wrote:

In article , sarah
writes

Blue Ice! :-)


And beware the yellow snow...

"Watch out where those Huskies go,
and don't you eat that yellow snow."

Yellow snow is the least of it. If you don't clean up after the dog in a
snowy winter, spring brings unpleasant surprises.

I know.
You ever been to Austria in the early Spring?

No -- is it worse than our backyard in Edmonton the first year we had a
dog?

Oh I dunno. I lived in Enfield for a while.
Almost 6 months of winter and 3 months of continuous snow cover... it all
adds up. Yuck.


--
Tim C.

"sarah" wrote in message
. ..

[snip]

As far
as it goes, I tend to take small-o 'organic' to mean any producer
avoiding the use of chemicals they think are harmful.

In that case I have been an organic gardener all my life. And yet, I
still do not go along with much of the strictures of the cult.

[snip]

Franz

The Reids wrote:

Following up to sarah

You ever been to Austria in the early Spring?

No -- is it worse than our backyard in Edmonton the first year we had a
dog? We live and learn. Fast, if we're lucky :-)

Freind of mine used to live in Edmonton.

Indeed :-)

regards
sarah


--
Think of it as evolution in action.

Tim Challenger wrote:

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 13:43:00 +0100, sarah wrote:

Tim Challenger wrote:

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 12:03:01 +0100, sarah wrote:

Tim Challenger wrote:
[-]
"Watch out where those Huskies go,
and don't you eat that yellow snow."

Yellow snow is the least of it. If you don't clean up after the dog in a
snowy winter, spring brings unpleasant surprises.

I know.
You ever been to Austria in the early Spring?

No -- is it worse than our backyard in Edmonton the first year we had a
dog?

Oh I dunno. I lived in Enfield for a while.
Almost 6 months of winter and 3 months of continuous snow cover... it all
adds up. Yuck.

Connecticut? I was in Alberta. Further north, longer winter, still would
prefer it to six damp grey months that smell of rotting leaves :-))

regards
sarah


--
Think of it as evolution in action.

Martin wrote:

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 15:28:38 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"sarah" wrote in message
...

[snip]

As far
as it goes, I tend to take small-o 'organic' to mean any producer
avoiding the use of chemicals they think are harmful.

In that case I have been an organic gardener all my life. And yet, I
still do not go along with much of the strictures of the cult.

Are you referring to the self flagellation on the midden bit?

There's a lot I didn't know. Perhaps that explains the plague of
caterpillars...

regards
sarah


--
Think of it as evolution in action.