Building companies KB Home and Hayward Lumber, as well as office supply
chain Staples Inc. -- all major consumers of wood products -- have lined up
with environmental groups trying to protect Alaska forests. The three
companies have sent letters to the U.S. Forest Service opposing a proposal that
would exempt Alaska's Tongass and Chugach national forests from a nationwide
prohibition against road building in national forests. Environmental
groups have targeted a number of companies that are major consumers or wood
products as pressure points as they campaign for stronger forest protections.
(08/26/03) Anchorage Daily News
http://www.adn.com/business/story/37...-3795179c.html
|| INFORAIN MAP: Timber Sales in Roadless Areas of the Tongass National
Forest
http://www.inforain.org/archive/tong...mber_sales.htm

POSTED IN alt.forestry
****************************
It's too bad that the battle always ends up sounding like "the forest rapers
vs. the forest protectors"- all because so many in the forestry/logging
world really are forest rapers.

What the enviros should be fighting for, in addition to locking up much old
growth and protecting other land which has special values- is much better
quality forestry.

That is- there are not 2 choices- there are 3 choices- land rapers,
protection (locking up) and GREAT forestry. Great forestry is great ecology
and good for recreation, aesthetics, economics and scientific value of
forests.

Unfortunately, I'd suggest, that 99% of all logging in North America has
been either mindless clearcutting or even more mindless high grading- and
it's all called FORESTRY- but it ain't forestry. The forestry establishment
are criminals in my opinion- they will surely burn in hell! G
--
Joe Zorzin


"Aozotorp" wrote in message
...

Building companies KB Home and Hayward Lumber, as well as office supply
chain Staples Inc. -- all major consumers of wood products -- have lined
up
with environmental groups trying to protect Alaska forests. The three
companies have sent letters to the U.S. Forest Service opposing a proposal
that
would exempt Alaska's Tongass and Chugach national forests from a
nationwide
prohibition against road building in national forests. Environmental
groups have targeted a number of companies that are major consumers or
wood
products as pressure points as they campaign for stronger forest
protections.
(08/26/03) Anchorage Daily News
http://www.adn.com/business/story/37...-3795179c.html
|| INFORAIN MAP: Timber Sales in Roadless Areas of the Tongass National
Forest
http://www.inforain.org/archive/tong...mber_sales.htm

Yep, Joe.

The politics and psychology these numbnuts use is amazing. The amount
of time they waste continues to
contribute to a decline of our capitilistic society. Well, nigga I
guess we best be gettin' back to woahk so
weez can make shore the mastes can waste some mo time makin' dem stories up!

**** em...

:-) Later,
Geoff

Joe Zorzin wrote:

POSTED IN alt.forestry
****************************
It's too bad that the battle always ends up sounding like "the forest rapers
vs. the forest protectors"- all because so many in the forestry/logging
world really are forest rapers.

What the enviros should be fighting for, in addition to locking up much old
growth and protecting other land which has special values- is much better
quality forestry.

That is- there are not 2 choices- there are 3 choices- land rapers,
protection (locking up) and GREAT forestry. Great forestry is great ecology
and good for recreation, aesthetics, economics and scientific value of
forests.

Unfortunately, I'd suggest, that 99% of all logging in North America has
been either mindless clearcutting or even more mindless high grading- and
it's all called FORESTRY- but it ain't forestry. The forestry establishment
are criminals in my opinion- they will surely burn in hell! G
--
Joe Zorzin


"Aozotorp" wrote in message
...


Building companies KB Home and Hayward Lumber, as well as office supply
chain Staples Inc. -- all major consumers of wood products -- have lined


up


with environmental groups trying to protect Alaska forests. The three
companies have sent letters to the U.S. Forest Service opposing a proposal


that


would exempt Alaska's Tongass and Chugach national forests from a


nationwide


prohibition against road building in national forests. Environmental
groups have targeted a number of companies that are major consumers or


wood


products as pressure points as they campaign for stronger forest


protections.


(08/26/03) Anchorage Daily News
http://www.adn.com/business/story/37...-3795179c.html
|| INFORAIN MAP: Timber Sales in Roadless Areas of the Tongass National
Forest
http://www.inforain.org/archive/tong...mber_sales.htm

(Aozotorp) wrote in message ...
Building companies KB Home and Hayward Lumber, as well as office supply
chain Staples Inc. -- all major consumers of wood products -- have lined up
with environmental groups trying to protect Alaska forests. The three
companies have sent letters to the U.S. Forest Service opposing a proposal that
would exempt Alaska's Tongass and Chugach national forests from a nationwide
prohibition against road building in national forests.

snip

Since when was there a nationwide prohibition on roadbuilding in
National Forests? (Yup, it's gotta be true if it's in the newspaper)
G Another example of the tactics used by "preservationists"
manipulating the media. "Clinton's Folly" gave designated roadless
areas an insignificantly higher level of protection than they already
had had, hence the term "Designated Roadless Area" from before
Clinton. I certainly wouldn't exempt the Alaska National Forests from
controls and conditions concerning new roadbuilding. Any new road must
first serve the land well AND be able to be installed without serious
hydrological problems. We cannot ignore the other big issue of whether
ANY roads SHOULD be built in that particular spot. "Preservationists"
rightly claim that the mere presence of roads significantly affect
wildlife habitats. However, proof is elusive and powerful people still
cling to their religious beliefs concerning our natural world.
Logging, solely to get logs, should be left to the private timber
lands. For the next 20 years, we should be practicing eco-forestry on
our Federal timber lands.

Larry, forest sculptor

POSTED IN alt.forestry

"Geoff Kegerreis" wrote in message ...
Yep, Joe.

The politics and psychology these numbnuts use is amazing. The amount of time they waste continues to
contribute to a decline of our capitilistic society.

The idiots who run the forestry world would have us believe that they are the good, red blooded, conservative Americans, in tune with American history and values, good businessmen who understand the value of the dollar and good investments- so they pulverize the forests and pretend doing so is intelligent.

Really good forestry is GREAT capitalism. Leaving the best trees (here in the very mixed species east) to grow to full economic maturity is almost unheard of and unseen- because it's so rare. Cutting premium black cherry, red oak, hard maple when they are only 16-17" DBH is NOT good capitalism since those trees are earning a very high rate of return- far higher than you can now get in typical "safe" investments like your local bank and municipal bonds. As Karl Davies has pointed out, loggers and mill foresters and corrupt consultants often lie to forest owners that their trees are not growing so most should be cut- "we'll just cut all the big trees- those over 12 in. DBH and leave the little ones to grow into big ones". The slightly more intelligent ones wil core a tree, then look in the idiot SAF table showing relationships between rings-per-inch and rate of growth- which table only indicates rate of growth of diameter. Karl has shown that we also must look at height growth and growth of the tree into better grades, along with the general rate of inflation inherent in the wood industry (above and beyond the nation's general inflation rate)- all of which must be added to what is in that idiot SAF table. The wood industry criminal could "prove" by that table that trees are only growing 3-5% but which may actually be growing 2-4 times as fast- in terms of rate of return on existing value. The SAF doesn't clarify this, our idiot forestry academics don't clarify this, the burreacracies don't clarify this, the SAF doesn't clarify this- all either too stupid or too lazy or too sold-out to clarify this basic means by which the industry rips off NIPF forest owners.

That is, great forestry is GREAT CAPITALISM- not some kind of "sissy, left-wing, tree hugging socialism". And, because great forestry will grow bigger trees, with more diverse species- it's also great ecology, better aesthetics, better recreation, better wildlife. This corruption of forestry in our "leading circles" is also a corruption of the meaning of capitalism and an insult to American history.

At one foresters meeting here in Mass., the head of the largest consulting firm in the state, after hearing some of us rant against high grading, said- "it's better for forest owners to remove their investment in trees and put it in the stock market". This was a few years ago before the market went bust. Anyone listening to that clown took a bath- anyone leaving their premium trees to grow some more is now earning a fantastic rate of return- which can only get better as we lose more forest and as the population continues to grow rapidly- thanks to the clowns who have let American be overun by immigrants, all in order to get cheap labor- after all, the rich need servants.


Well, nigga I guess we best be gettin' back to woahk so
weez can make shore the mastes can waste some mo time makin' dem stories up!

**** em...

:-) Later,
Geoff

Joe Zorzin wrote:

POSTED IN alt.forestry
****************************
It's too bad that the battle always ends up sounding like "the forest rapers
vs. the forest protectors"- all because so many in the forestry/logging
world really are forest rapers.

What the enviros should be fighting for, in addition to locking up much old
growth and protecting other land which has special values- is much better
quality forestry.

That is- there are not 2 choices- there are 3 choices- land rapers,
protection (locking up) and GREAT forestry. Great forestry is great ecology
and good for recreation, aesthetics, economics and scientific value of
forests.

Unfortunately, I'd suggest, that 99% of all logging in North America has
been either mindless clearcutting or even more mindless high grading- and
it's all called FORESTRY- but it ain't forestry. The forestry establishment
are criminals in my opinion- they will surely burn in hell! G
--
Joe Zorzin


"Aozotorp" wrote in message
...

Building companies KB Home and Hayward Lumber, as well as office supply
chain Staples Inc. -- all major consumers of wood products -- have lined

up

with environmental groups trying to protect Alaska forests. The three
companies have sent letters to the U.S. Forest Service opposing a proposal

that

would exempt Alaska's Tongass and Chugach national forests from a

nationwide

prohibition against road building in national forests. Environmental
groups have targeted a number of companies that are major consumers or

wood

products as pressure points as they campaign for stronger forest

protections.

(08/26/03) Anchorage Daily News
http://www.adn.com/business/story/37...-3795179c.html
|| INFORAIN MAP: Timber Sales in Roadless Areas of the Tongass National
Forest
http://www.inforain.org/archive/tong...mber_sales.htm

Joe, I think you hit the nail on the head there but I do see one problem
with
your statement. The remark about clowns letting all of these immigrants in
is
very mistaken because unless you are a Native American whose land was raped
and taken from him, then you are among the immigrants also, as am I an
immigrant. So before you start blaming the influx of immigrants, which
include you and I, the real problem here is the overpopulation caused by
couples having too many children and immigrants coming to this country for a
better life.




===== Original Message From "Joe Zorzin" xxxx@zzzz =====
POSTED IN alt.forestry

"Geoff Kegerreis" wrote in message
...
Yep, Joe.

The politics and psychology these numbnuts use is amazing. The amount of
time they waste continues to
contribute to a decline of our capitilistic society.

The idiots who run the forestry world would have us believe that they are the
good, red blooded, conservative Americans, in tune with American history and
values, good businessmen who understand the value of the dollar and good
investments- so they pulverize the forests and pretend doing so is
intelligent.

Really good forestry is GREAT capitalism. Leaving the best trees (here in the
very mixed species east) to grow to full economic maturity is almost unheard
of and unseen- because it's so rare. Cutting premium black cherry, red oak,
hard maple when they are only 16-17" DBH is NOT good capitalism since those
trees are earning a very high rate of return- far higher than you can now
get
in typical "safe" investments like your local bank and municipal bonds. As
Karl Davies has pointed out, loggers and mill foresters and corrupt
consultants often lie to forest owners that their trees are not growing so
most should be cut- "we'll just cut all the big trees- those over 12 in. DBH
and leave the little ones to grow into big ones". The slightly more
intelligent ones wil core a tree, then look in the idiot SAF table showing
relationships between rings-per-inch and rate of growth- which table only
indicates rate of growth of diameter. Karl has shown that we also must look
at
height growth and growth of the tree into better grades, along with the
general rate of inflation inherent in the wood industry (above and beyond
the
nation's general inflation rate)- all of which must be added to what is in
that idiot SAF table. The wood industry criminal could "prove" by that table
that trees are only growing 3-5% but which may actually be growing 2-4 times
as fast- in terms of rate of return on existing value. The SAF doesn't
clarify
this, our idiot forestry academics don't clarify this, the burreacracies
don't
clarify this, the SAF doesn't clarify this- all either too stupid or too
lazy
or too sold-out to clarify this basic means by which the industry rips off
NIPF forest owners.

That is, great forestry is GREAT CAPITALISM- not some kind of "sissy,
left-wing, tree hugging socialism". And, because great forestry will grow
bigger trees, with more diverse species- it's also great ecology, better
aesthetics, better recreation, better wildlife. This corruption of forestry
in
our "leading circles" is also a corruption of the meaning of capitalism and
an
insult to American history.

At one foresters meeting here in Mass., the head of the largest consulting
firm in the state, after hearing some of us rant against high grading, said-
"it's better for forest owners to remove their investment in trees and put
it
in the stock market". This was a few years ago before the market went bust.
Anyone listening to that clown took a bath- anyone leaving their premium
trees
to grow some more is now earning a fantastic rate of return- which can only
get better as we lose more forest and as the population continues to grow
rapidly- thanks to the clowns who have let American be overun by immigrants,
all in order to get cheap labor- after all, the rich need servants.


Well, nigga I guess we best be gettin' back to woahk so
weez can make shore the mastes can waste some mo time makin' dem stories
up!

**** em...

:-) Later,
Geoff

Joe Zorzin wrote:

POSTED IN alt.forestry
****************************
It's too bad that the battle always ends up sounding like "the forest rapers
vs. the forest protectors"- all because so many in the forestry/logging
world really are forest rapers.

What the enviros should be fighting for, in addition to locking up much old
growth and protecting other land which has special values- is much better
quality forestry.

That is- there are not 2 choices- there are 3 choices- land rapers,
protection (locking up) and GREAT forestry. Great forestry is great ecology
and good for recreation, aesthetics, economics and scientific value of
forests.

Unfortunately, I'd suggest, that 99% of all logging in North America has
been either mindless clearcutting or even more mindless high grading- and
it's all called FORESTRY- but it ain't forestry. The forestry establishment
are criminals in my opinion- they will surely burn in hell! G
--
Joe Zorzin


"Aozotorp" wrote in message
...

Building companies KB Home and Hayward Lumber, as well as office supply
chain Staples Inc. -- all major consumers of wood products -- have lined

up

with environmental groups trying to protect Alaska forests. The three
companies have sent letters to the U.S. Forest Service opposing a proposal

that

would exempt Alaska's Tongass and Chugach national forests from a

nationwide

prohibition against road building in national forests. Environmental
groups have targeted a number of companies that are major consumers or

wood

products as pressure points as they campaign for stronger forest

protections.

(08/26/03) Anchorage Daily News
http://www.adn.com/business/story/37...-3795179c.html
|| INFORAIN MAP: Timber Sales in Roadless Areas of the Tongass National
Forest
http://www.inforain.org/archive/tong...mber_sales.htm

John Wernet wrote:

Joe, I think you hit the nail on the head there but I do see one problem
with
your statement. The remark about clowns letting all of these immigrants in
is
very mistaken because unless you are a Native American whose land was raped
and taken from him, then you are among the immigrants also, as am I an
immigrant. So before you start blaming the influx of immigrants, which
include you and I, the real problem here is the overpopulation caused by
couples having too many children and immigrants coming to this country for a
better life.


I have a modest proposal...

Short of that, Joe's statement is right on. Just looking at this end of
the continent, west coast immigration has ALWAYS been set up for the
benefit of industry (ag and garments especially). That includes a steady
supply of illegals.

Anyone who looks into the floral brush industry, or precommercial
thinning and tree planting realizes that these would come to a sudden
halt if not for fresh immigrants and illegals. The ones without green
cards run the risk of being turned out at any time, likely without their
last paycheck, but they're right back again.

I know several self employed friends who happen to be legal immigrants;
one's a PhD, one's a pre-school teacher, anothers in real estate and
one's a landscaper. Nothing wrong with legal immigration if there's
really a job for them. It's different when, say, a very large timber
company prices PCT contracts so low that only recent immigrant and
illegal crews can ever win a bid.

Joe, ever read up on ecological economics? You're already sound like a
convert. There are some intriguing theories about pricing reproductive
rights as a way of self limiting population. Some could say we're doing
that already, pushing average home prices over 200K!

"mike hagen" wrote in message
...
John Wernet wrote:

Joe, I think you hit the nail on the head there but I do see one problem
with
your statement. The remark about clowns letting all of these immigrants
in
is
very mistaken because unless you are a Native American whose land was
raped
and taken from him, then you are among the immigrants also, as am I an
immigrant. So before you start blaming the influx of immigrants, which
include you and I, the real problem here is the overpopulation caused by
couples having too many children and immigrants coming to this country
for a
better life.


I have a modest proposal...

Short of that, Joe's statement is right on. Just looking at this end of
the continent, west coast immigration has ALWAYS been set up for the
benefit of industry (ag and garments especially). That includes a steady
supply of illegals.

Anyone who looks into the floral brush industry, or precommercial
thinning and tree planting realizes that these would come to a sudden
halt if not for fresh immigrants and illegals.


Too bad that the powers that be consider such work only worthy of fresh
slaves, rather than forestry professionals. At least here in the east, with
our multi species all aged forests, doing precommercial thinning calls for a
lot of talent. I love doing the work- we used to get "costs shares" and I'd
do the work for a lot less than I'm worth- not any more! Of course the local
forestry burros and academics keep getting raises- but no money for forestry
improvement work.


The ones without green
cards run the risk of being turned out at any time, likely without their
last paycheck, but they're right back again.

I know several self employed friends who happen to be legal immigrants;
one's a PhD, one's a pre-school teacher, anothers in real estate and
one's a landscaper. Nothing wrong with legal immigration if there's
really a job for them.

I once thought of moving to New Zealand. I found out that NZ only allows in
people that the country really needs. They do have a good forestry world, so
I probably could have gone if I had decided to.


It's different when, say, a very large timber
company prices PCT contracts so low that only recent immigrant and
illegal crews can ever win a bid.

All part of the new "two- tiered economy"- both industry and government love
to outsource work they can't export to slave nations- to save money in order
to pay more to those who survive the cuts. This is a disgrace- it's
UnAmerican- the public shouldn't tolerate it- but hey, the American
proletariat voted for the Republican scumballs- millions of auto and steel
workers voted for Reagan- after he got in, many lost their jobs- they never
learn- all the Republicans have to do is say that they're against gun
control and pro family values, and the country and its wealth is theirs.




Joe, ever read up on ecological economics? You're already sound like a
convert. There are some intriguing theories about pricing reproductive
rights as a way of self limiting population. Some could say we're doing
that already, pushing average home prices over 200K!

"mike hagen" wrote in message
...

(snipped)



Joe, ever read up on ecological economics? You're already sound like a
convert. There are some intriguing theories about pricing reproductive
rights as a way of self limiting population. Some could say we're doing
that already, pushing average home prices over 200K!


You mean factoring in all the true values produced by the ecosystem and all
the real costs not now counted- known as externalities? Karl Davies wrote
something about this issue- I have a copy at
http://forestmeister.com/global-onli...ys/Davies.html

If we really had an economics that looked intelligently at the ecosystem, we
foresters would be up there with top corporate executives- in terms of our
professional prestige and pay. I won't hold my breath.

Unfortunately, high home prices don't stop people from being horny. G

Instead, they just have lots of kids, but can't afford to raise them,
because the jobs that should be theirs are now in slave nations- like China,
which is smart enough to take all those profits and build a huge military
complex which will soon threaten us far more than a few towel heads. G

--
Joe Zorzin

"What Liberal Media" by Erik Alterman
http://www.whatliberalmedia.com

snip
You mean factoring in all the true values produced by the ecosystem and all
the real costs not now counted- known as externalities? Karl Davies wrote
something about this issue- I have a copy at
http://forestmeister.com/global-onli...ys/Davies.html

snip


Yep. The externalities always bite somebody in the arse sooner or
later and it's the community that pays the price, just after the
developers finish their project. To quote Robert Heinlein, "There
ain't no such thing as a free lunch!" Otherwise known as "TANSTAAFL!"


We got rain at last. Almost .3 inch. Still fires all over the place
though.