Dale:

Each pot was assigned to a bonsai artists. It was
his "problem" to solve. I am certain he was well
compensated for his efforts as Mr. Takagi is a
known "benefactor."

Peter Aradi
Tulsa, Oklahoma
----- Original Message -----
From: "dalecochoy"
To:
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 2:45 PM
Subject: [IBC] BT#84 Takagi pot comp wonderings


----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Boyd"
Subject: [IBC] BT#84 Takagi pot comp wonderings


Dale,
Don't you think that the more individual stances toward
bonsai style has to be considered along with the that of pots?
If there is something non-classic in bonsai there has to be
the same in pots.

Yep! You know, I'd have loved to been a fly on the wall when Takagi's
group
was picking out trees to go into some of the pots. I like them all, but,
I
can imagine a lot of chin-scratching...."OK, we have these winner pots,
now
how can we pot them so everyone will be happy"?
Dale


On the gallery I was looking at Walter's post "Bear" and
the first question I had in my mind was, "How would one find a
pot without a potter's help?" I think instead of virtuals of
trees sometimes there needs to be virtuals of pots.
Lynn


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Too many factors affect our perception of beauty for me to try to recite them
here. But new ways of expressing beauty always seem to meet resistance. Whether it is
the distaste for expressionism many had when it emerged in the late 19th century or
simply a new hair color or style, most of us initially tend to react negatively.
Sometimes we do this with good reason. Other times our tastes evolve to acceptance or
even preference.
Some of this will be affected by one's stage of development as an artist.
Novices tend to quickly become rather polarized in their viewpoint, much like young
people tend to be more passionate and polarized in politics (regardless of affiliation)
than older, more experienced people. Exceptions abound, but that's the way we tend to
evolve.
Very few of us are blessed with the passion, talent, and vision, the soul if
you will, of great artists. And you can tell they are different when you meet them.
While they are different from each other and express in different ways, you usually
notice this when you meet them, right from the start. Kobayashi, Kimura, Liporace,
Invernizzi, Naka, Banting, Guidry, Marchal, Valavanis. They all challenge you,
stimulate your creative juices and get you more excited about what you are doing with
your art.
Well, my next patient just showed up. ;-)
Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA
http://LCBSBonsai.org http://bonsai-bci.com
================================
Andy Rutledge wrote:
As I see it, the problem with this whole thing is that many of the pots are
wonderful by themselves. Matched with a tree, however, the two elements compete or do
not compliment each other harmoniously - which is antithetical to our art.
Look at the utter artistic failure of the last "Artful Environments" put on
by the Pacific Rim Collection. There, excellent individual works of art
were combined in an awful mishmash of chaos that was neither beautiful nor
artistic. This same thing generally characterizes the combination of
"innovative" pottery and bonsai tree art.
How this is resolved is beyond me.
Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/ zone 8, Texas
Craig Cowing wrote:
Maybe I'm getting to be an old fart ahead of my time, but I generally like a
more serene, classically styled pot. Something that doesn't compete with the tree.
Some of the pots that appear in these competitions, as Andy points out, are nice as
pieces of pottery but would look terrible with trees in them.
Just my $.02 worth.
Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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From: "Craig Cowing"
Maybe I'm getting to be an old fart ahead of my time, but I
generally like a more
serene, classically styled pot. Something that doesn't
compete with the tree.
Some of the pots that appear in these competitions, as Andy
points out, are nice as
pieces of pottery but would look terrible with trees in
them.

------------------------

A good point, Craig, to think on, that of non-competitive
pots:
But, is that all we want of managing an artful bonsai?
Non-competitive is a negative position IF one can have a pot
that in some manner has "flow" with the tree, either in form
or line suggests it was made especially for that tree. As
trees have gained some individuality, and I am thinking
mostly of the European trees, so has pottery - but they each
are going their own way, growing and experimenting yet as they
must.
It is not always so, of course, Potters are working with
individuals, and the result can be strongly Opposite of
non-competitive elements; these combined efforts may
sometime surpass the classic usage by being of a form, texture
or with lines that have such unity that it is obviously
intended to be singly paired. I think that is a goal that
gives the present freedom of design a good face. It is
possible to work outside the traditional conventions of an art
and be acceptable only if enough universal elements remain to
give an emphasis to Art form. One thing we can do is
emphasize that element of unity between pot and tree more than
it has been done in the past.
Lynn

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Andy, and others,
How do you feel about this springs "Bonsai InSites" display
at the national
arboretum where selected famous potters were asked to design
a pot for a
tree selected up front as one to be used for each potter. In
other words,
the potter had pictures and measurements of the trees he was
creating the pot for. SNIP
However,Some matched wonderfully to the chosen tree.
Regards,
Dale
-----------------------------

Dale,
I was very interested, too. One thought went
through my mind continually as I kept studying them. I wished
some of them had thought more "organically" then geometricly.
As these newer designed trees seem to have less formality of
shape than classic they appear more organic in nature and the
pot needs to do so, too - for my wish.
In the Takagi exhibit I recall being turned off by some
colorings, where, again, I would prefer they remain earthen
colors- which can still be other than brown, but neutralized
to such terms as sienna, ochre - the natural earthen shades,
just another unity of design with the tree.
Lynn

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Dale...

Personally I would be very interested in seeing a potter or several
potters presented with a tree and allow them to each develop their
pottery vision for the same tree. I think in my mind that would do more
to push the boundaries of bonsai pottery while still remaining
complimentary to the tree and true to the art. In other words the pot
was developed for the sake of the tree and not for the sake of the pot
itself. Don't get me wrong I love non-bonsai pottery but this concept
of developing from the ground up a pot for a specific tree I think is
very exciting. Makes me want to take up the art of pottery.

With that in mind I'd rather see the potters pushing into pots that
relate to one another in a 3-point display and especially as Andy
outlined a "new" type of display. I may be giving up an original idea
or perhaps someone has already done it but I always thought a cypress
swamp in pot would be incredible. Andy mentioned Spanish moss...imagine
the whole swamp with stumps and knees poking out of the water and
spanish moss in the style of a land and water pot but with most or all
water....sort of a swampy water-filled forest style. The pot created
for such a display as well as some of the other displays to me is more
interesting than some of the original pots of this thread.

Bil



== Andy, and others,
== How do you feel about this springs "Bonsai InSites" display at the
== national
== arboretum where selected famous potters were asked to design a pot
for a
== tree selected up front as one to be used for each potter. In other
== words,
== the potter had pictures and measurements of the trees he was
creating
== the
== pot for. A couple of them did wind up getting other trees planted in
== them
== at a later date after original pics were taken.
== I was VERY interested in this. All of the pots were great
technically
== challenging works, although I didn't like a couple of the designs,
and
== I
== thought a few just in no way were made with planting a living tree
in
== mind.
== However,Some matched wonderfully to the chosen tree.
== Regards,
== Dale

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From Jim L.:
And then, of course, isn't it plausible that you might have
a
tree that sets off the POT? I know we do bonsai, but the
tree
doesn't have to be king all the time, does it?
------------

No, there could be a serendipitous occasion when that
happens.
It is the difference in mediums - bonsai is so much less
flexible since a tree guides our styling with its natural
form, but a pot medium is very flexible; in fact, there is
nothing saying that pots are always ceramic.
Lynn

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Good Day to All,

speaking as potter,I would say,let the pot remain
separate to the tree if one is going to show off
the art of the pot.

Isn't this the problem with Westerners,we always
want to leave our mark on the wrong aspect of
something from another culture ?

It's the tree[in this case]which is important and the
pot must serve the tree.Not compete.

I collect the YiXing pottery catalogues,where some of
the finest and most innovative shapes are shown.It
would be a waste of a beautiful pot to put a tree in it.

I see nothing wrong with making and buying pots for
their individual beauty.They do not need trees to stand
on their own.
It's like buying the original YiXing teapots.They need no
explanation or reasoning.

Obviously the greater the grace and beauty of the tree,
the more you can refine the pot.
Perhaps what your eyes are having problems with,is
the unrefined tree in an excellent pot ?

This is materialising itself as novelty,as opposed to true
growth and change ????
Khaimraj
[West Indies/Caribbean,
the drier lands.]



-----Original Message-----
From: Lynn Boyd
To:
Date: 31 July 2003 23:43
Subject: [IBC] BT#84 Takagi pot comp wonderings


From Jim L.:
And then, of course, isn't it plausible that you might have
a
tree that sets off the POT? I know we do bonsai, but the
tree
doesn't have to be king all the time, does it?
------------

No, there could be a serendipitous occasion when that
happens.
It is the difference in mediums - bonsai is so much less
flexible since a tree guides our styling with its natural
form, but a pot medium is very flexible; in fact, there is
nothing saying that pots are always ceramic.
Lynn

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Humm... Interesting thread. I like pottery and have done some also but not
for bonsai. Maybe later. But has anyone thought about what you are to do
with these special and specific pots when the tree grows, changes or
(shudder!) dies?

Think I'll go back to trying to find an appropriate background/pot for my
trees. Just a thought. Have fun - jay

Jay Beckenbach - Melrose, FL - Zone 8b/9a

-----Original Message-----
From: Corcoran. Bil ]
---------- CLIP ----------
Personally I would be very interested in seeing a potter or several
potters presented with a tree and allow them to each develop their
pottery vision for the same tree....
---------- CLIP ----------

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Bonsai trees die??

Simple...just make another of the exact same tree...

;]

Bil

== Subject: [IBC] BT#84 Takagi pot comp wonderings
==
== Humm... Interesting thread. I like pottery and have done some also
but
== not
== for bonsai. Maybe later. But has anyone thought about what you are
to
== do
== with these special and specific pots when the tree grows, changes or
== (shudder!) dies?
==
== Think I'll go back to trying to find an appropriate background/pot
for
== my
== trees. Just a thought. Have fun - jay
==
== Jay Beckenbach - Melrose, FL - Zone 8b/9a

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This thread has taken some interesting twists and
turns.

I think the ideal would be that the "artist" would do
both tree and pot as a single unit establishing
balance where the "artist" though most necessary to
the composition. There are times when a beautiful
rock is planted with a small tree used to set off the
stone. Isn't this what art is all about? Self
expression? the last qustion then being whether the
art you have created in a contemporay situation is
still bonsai.

Sandy

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Lynn,
I agree with both your statements below. I found the Bonsai InSites pots to
be less "Wild" in colors than some of Takagi's pot winners, but I rarely see
a Takagi winner that I don't think would have a nice look if correct tree
was placed in it, but, some of the InSites pots just NEVER would . I keep
thinking of the two of which one looked like a smashed cardboard box and the
other looked like a ...I hate to say it but....Trash can!-----
But, some matched VERY nice.

Getting back to size consideration. MANY of Takagi's pots would make
wonderful accent plant pots if smaller. I think MOST would agree with this?
But, it's the SIZE of many and the thought of a styled "classical"
important word here) tree in them that turns most off. I'd love to see
some "off the wall" trees virtualy potted in some of the "off the wall"
Takagi pots. or, some more "off the wall" trees virtually planted in some of
the Bonsai InSites pots.
Dale

Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Boyd"
To: "dalecochoy"
Cc: "BONSAI"
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 5:12 PM
Subject: [IBC] BT#84 Takagi pot comp wonderings



Andy, and others,
How do you feel about this springs "Bonsai InSites" display
at the national
arboretum where selected famous potters were asked to design
a pot for a
tree selected up front as one to be used for each potter. In
other words,
the potter had pictures and measurements of the trees he was
creating the pot for. SNIP
However,Some matched wonderfully to the chosen tree.
Regards,
Dale
-----------------------------

Dale,
I was very interested, too. One thought went
through my mind continually as I kept studying them. I wished
some of them had thought more "organically" then geometricly.
As these newer designed trees seem to have less formality of
shape than classic they appear more organic in nature and the
pot needs to do so, too - for my wish.
In the Takagi exhibit I recall being turned off by some
colorings, where, again, I would prefer they remain earthen
colors- which can still be other than brown, but neutralized
to such terms as sienna, ochre - the natural earthen shades,
just another unity of design with the tree.
Lynn


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----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Rutledge"
Subject: [IBC] BT#84 Takagi pot comp wonderings


Hi Dale,

I thought that all but 2 of them were pretty bad. One was okay (Ah Leon
and
Mike Ramina's pine)

Yes, nice. Looks like a "bonsai pot" including a ceramic stand.

and one was pretty good (Brett Thomas and Jack Sustic's
Buttonwood).

At the show this tree had been replaced with Ron Langs blooming wisteria. I
thought it was MUCH nicer than the photo of the buttonwood in pot. BTW, this
pot was pretty big!

A couple others were repotted with different trees and I think Ron added one
more of his own pots/trees to the display that was not in photo book. I
think I have a pic of the pot with wisteria. If so I'll post on gallery
today.

Earlier when I mentioned a couple that just didn't "go" with living
trees...I forgot about the one that was made like stacked dresser drawers!
Dale Cochoy

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Rutledge"
Subject: [IBC] BT#84 Takagi pot comp wonderings


Hi Dale,

one was pretty good (Brett Thomas and Jack Sustic's
Buttonwood
Andy and all,
I posted a few changed trees or new pots/trees to the gallery.
These tree/pots were different shots in the booklet or not in it at all.
Dale

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Dale...thanks for posting the photos.

I really like the 2nd photo. I find the balance very pleasing at least
from a visual sense. I also like the tree and how the colors of the
"pot" compliment it. It is certainly not what I would call a
traditional or natural pot but it works for me. I would like to have
seen the rectangular elements, especially the smaller one have a more
rough or less perfect rectangular shape at the top.

The fist picture is actually an interesting pot in that as much as my
first impression was that they left it in the sun too long my long-term
impression was that of a rocky hillside on the edge of a small stream.
I'm not sure the Wisteria works for me but then again I'm not a big fan
of Wisteria. I would love to see a willow potted in that pot and see it
sitting in a large unglazed brown ceramic tray perhaps even with a blue
glaze inside the tray only. I think this would add to its appeal. I
also would like to see the back of the pot continue the upward slop to
get more of the hillside/streamside feel.

The third photo just reminds me of those old 70's "hand" chairs. I
wasn't crazy about them then and I'm still no big fan. I do like the
Azalea.

Bil

== Andy and all,
== I posted a few changed trees or new pots/trees to the gallery.
== These tree/pots were different shots in the booklet or not in it at
all.
== Dale

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Kitsune Miko"
Subject: [IBC] BT#84 Takagi pot comp wonderings


This thread has taken some interesting twists and
turns.

I think the ideal would be that the "artist" would do
both tree and pot as a single unit establishing
balance where the "artist" though most necessary to
the composition.
Sandy

This certainly is the best idea, of course, but, strays from the original
intent of the first question in the thread.
Regards,
Dale

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