Andy Rutledge wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Cowing"
Andy:
Let me ask the $5 question. Do you personally know of anyone who is in
this
desperate situation you describe, being a wealthy person who pays someone
else to
style and completely maintain their trees, and who is suffering terribly
because
nobody will allow them to display their trees in competitions? I guess
I'd like to
hear from this shy group of people myself.
Craig Cowing
-----------------------------

Alas, I cannot help you. You see, this "group of people" does no exist in
the U.S. community because our organizations have worked to make them
unwelcome and provide nothing of interest to them through their publications
and activities. How sad. In the world of American bonsai, if you ain't a
hobbyist, you ain't nuthin'.

It's foolish to blame the national bonsai organizations for this, Andy. In
fact, you have provided the answer to your own concern in a myriad of posts
concerning the whole issue of whether or not bonsai is an art. This country
doesn't have the depth of tradition in bonsai--there is a longer tradition in
California because of the Asian-American population, but out here on the east
coast I get the impression that a bonsai club is old if it's over 25 years
old. Someday this may become a pertinent issue because there will be a larger
number of collector/non-hobbyists in the country. Right now there aren't.

The president of BCI has already weighed in on this issue on the IBC:

"And once again, Andy, I would like to point out that it is not
"the large organizations who are creating this requirement. We are only
"following the wishes of the persons who sponsor the competitions and ask
"us to administer them. If you can find someone who will put up the
"money to sponsor the type of competition you are espousing or can
"persuade one of the current sponsors to change their requirements, there
"will be no problem with getting us to administer it that way.

In order to advance bonsai as an art, not merely a hobby (and personally, I
don't see the highest manifestation of the bonsai owner as someone who owns the
trees and pays someone else to maintain them--that's unnecessarily elitist)
then we're going to have to work at it. There are still plenty of people in
this country who still think of a bonsai as those little juniper cuttings with
rocks glued on the soil that appear in November at Walmart and Home Depot. I
meet them all the time. As you know it's a long ride from that to the sort of
thing you're suggesting. Please see my separate post from earlier today on my
own gradual effort to have a local bonsai exhibit sponsored by a local arts
society.

In partial answer to your request, I can tell you that I know of one
collector in this country who has a talented professional maintain his
collection. This person has some of the best bonsai in this country, but
has exhibited them only once - when a small company hosted a judged exhibit
where the entry criteria were based on size and species (rather than how
long he has been training them or how long he's been in bonsai or how long
he has owned the trees). Getting to see his bonsai was a wonderful
experience and certainly inspiring. He's not a member of any club because
no club or national organization is even slightly concerned with individuals
like him - a collector.

Is that the only reason he's not a member of a club? I can't believe it's the
only one. I can't honestly belive that a person who has made a financial
commitment to pay someone to maintain a bonsai collection would have no
interest in watching demos, hearing lectures on various aspects of bonsai,
etc. Maybe if he did he would learn something--like how to pinch a juniper,
perhaps.

Perhaps this guy could put on a garden party and have his own exhibition at his
home, or for security purposes, at another venue. Maybe do it as a fundraiser
for a charity. Why not? I'd love to be able to do that someday.

Also, why is competing in a contest the highest level of bonsai for some?

Yes, this is a "single" instance that I know of - and for good reason.
Surely I don't have to explain the reason.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.andyrutledge.com/palaver/main.htm

Well, you've already given your reason, but don't assume that it is
crystal-clear to everyone else. For me, I just don't agree.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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If this is the case in USA I really feel very sorry for all of those people
not beeing able to enjoy the sometimes overwhelming appearance of those
great trees which would otherwise be totally out of reach to most of us
normal mortals.
It is the generosity of those collectors who allow us for a little while to
share in the greatness of their treasures.

And being a struggling hobbyist myself I feel very much joy and admiration
for the look of a perfect branchstructure that has been worked on by
generations of bonsaiprofessionals.

I think instead of the envie I sense(If I am wrong I am sorry for that), a
little appreciation or even gratitude would be more in place toward the
generosity of the collectors.

I just think that the world of bonsai is a little bigger as just the irst
few years of trees in training.
Nothing wrong with that........just there is more and nothing wrong with a
little awareness on that part too.

My 2 cents,
elize
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Rutledge"
To:
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 4:22 PM
Subject: [IBC] '03 award programs


----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Cowing"
Andy:
Let me ask the $5 question. Do you personally know of anyone who is in
this
desperate situation you describe, being a wealthy person who pays
someone
else to
style and completely maintain their trees, and who is suffering terribly
because
nobody will allow them to display their trees in competitions? I guess
I'd like to
hear from this shy group of people myself.
Craig Cowing
-----------------------------

Alas, I cannot help you. You see, this "group of people" does no exist in
the U.S. community because our organizations have worked to make them
unwelcome and provide nothing of interest to them through their
publications
and activities. How sad. In the world of American bonsai, if you ain't a
hobbyist, you ain't nuthin'.

In partial answer to your request, I can tell you that I know of one
collector in this country who has a talented professional maintain his
collection. This person has some of the best bonsai in this country, but
has exhibited them only once - when a small company hosted a judged
exhibit
where the entry criteria were based on size and species (rather than how
long he has been training them or how long he's been in bonsai or how long
he has owned the trees). Getting to see his bonsai was a wonderful
experience and certainly inspiring. He's not a member of any club
because
no club or national organization is even slightly concerned with
individuals
like him - a collector.

Yes, this is a "single" instance that I know of - and for good reason.
Surely I don't have to explain the reason.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Cowing"
snip
In order to advance bonsai as an art, not merely a hobby (and personally,
I
don't see the highest manifestation of the bonsai owner as someone who
owns the
trees and pays someone else to maintain them--that's unnecessarily
elitist)
then we're going to have to work at it.
--------------

Craig, I have never said nor even suggested that wealthy collectors are the
hightest manifestation of bonsai owner. Are you now making things up in
order to paint my thrust in a negative light? That's rather malevolent,
isn't it? I hope you realize that we're not political opponents and there's
no need for demagoguery.

In reference to affluent arts patrons, I have lamented the fact that our
community does not welcome them - a significant reason for the fact that
there are few of them. One kind of enthusiast is no "better" than another.
The fact that affluent collectors can contribute more to the economy of an
endeavor and expand the scope of enthusiasm (from a different direction) is
a simple fact. This sort of participation is something that the endeavor in
the U.S. does not currently enjoy to any significant degree. This facet of
the community need not be "better" than the rest in order for us to welcome
it. Please don't misconstrue my observations on this issue.
--------------

Please see my separate post from earlier today on my
own gradual effort to have a local bonsai exhibit sponsored by a local
arts
society.
--------------

Excellent. I hope it works out well. Keep us updated.
--------------

I can't honestly belive that a person who has made a financial
commitment to pay someone to maintain a bonsai collection would have no
interest in watching demos, hearing lectures on various aspects of bonsai,
etc. Maybe if he did he would learn something--like how to pinch a
juniper,
perhaps.
---------------

Ha! You mean the way that other art collectors join clubs where they learn
the techniques of painting and scultpting? Craig, you are mistakenly
applying your brand of enthusiasm upon them. This is part of the problem -
too many of us can't understand how someone would not be interested in
learning the craft/creation aspects of bonsai. Art collectors don't
necessarily have any interest in learning how to "do" the art. They instead
COLLECT the art. What about this is so difficult for you to understand?
Why must we all be bonsai participants for the same reasons and in the same
manner? There's nothing "wrong" with these people. They simply have a
different mode of involvement in the community. I hope you can rewire your
mind with regard to this concept.
---------------


Also, why is competing in a contest the highest level of bonsai for some?
---------------

Again, you're misconstruing the point. It is not "the highest" level of
bonsai. It is simply a facet of our endeavor that here in the U.S. is done
very poorly and with ridiculous methods. I merely ask that we redefine our
approach. Why is this so difficult to consider?
---------------

Well, you've already given your reason, but don't assume that it is
crystal-clear to everyone else. For me, I just don't agree.
Craig Cowing
---------------

Now this I can understand and take at face value. Yes, perhaps you simply
disagree with my thrust. Fair enough. But please don't deform my arguments
so that you can more easily argue against them. Thanks.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.andyrutledge.com/palaver/main.htm
zone 8, Texas

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Andy Rutledge wrote:

snip
--------------
Craig, I have never said nor even suggested that wealthy collectors are the
hightest manifestation of bonsai owner. Are you now making things up in
order to paint my thrust in a negative light?

Not at all. But I at least see this implied, and in my view it's a short walk
from your position to explicitly stating the above. But no, you didn't state
it explicitly, and I'm sorry if you took it that I was saying so.

That's rather malevolent,
isn't it? I hope you realize that we're not political opponents and there's
no need for demagoguery.

Of course not. I don't engage in demagoguery, I have no interest in purposely
antagonizing you or anyone else, and I don't see you as an opponent or a bad
person, just someone with whom I have some disagreements. I like to debate,
Andy, and this is something I have an opinion on.

In reference to affluent arts patrons, I have lamented the fact that our
community does not welcome them - a significant reason for the fact that
there are few of them.

You see, this is where I find the fallacy--a simple cause and effect argument.
You seem to see this dearth of collectors/non-enthusiasts as being caused by a
blindspot in the vision of bonsai organizations. I see it as a function of the
extreme youth of the bonsai community in this country and in the West in
general. I also see it as a function of our society and it's rampant
individualism, which at times, I must admit, irritates me.

One kind of enthusiast is no "better" than another.
The fact that affluent collectors can contribute more to the economy of an
endeavor and expand the scope of enthusiasm (from a different direction) is
a simple fact. This sort of participation is something that the endeavor in
the U.S. does not currently enjoy to any significant degree.

See my comments above. It will undoubtedly happen in time, but hasn't happened
yet. As parents we both know that six-month old babies are not ready to walk.

snip
--------------
Please see my separate post from earlier today on my
own gradual effort to have a local bonsai exhibit sponsored by a local
arts
society.
--------------

Excellent. I hope it works out well. Keep us updated.

Will do. As I explained in the other post, I don't have the wherewithal to put
on a bonsai exhibit on my own, but I may be able to persuade a couple of Yama
Ki members to put on an exhibition with me, perhaps later this year if I can
swing it. Mike Pollock, are you out there??? The viewing stone exhibit I saw
as a way of testing the water for a general view of seeing natural art as real
art. As you have pointed out in previous comments, there seems to be, in at
least a part of the arts community, a prejudice against something natural being
art. So, this will be a way of taking advantage of what seems to be a
favorable environment.
--------------

I can't honestly belive that a person who has made a financial
commitment to pay someone to maintain a bonsai collection would have no
interest in watching demos, hearing lectures on various aspects of bonsai,
etc. Maybe if he did he would learn something--like how to pinch a
juniper,
perhaps.
---------------

snip

Art collectors don't
necessarily have any interest in learning how to "do" the art. They instead
COLLECT the art.

No, they don't, but it seems to me that a person who is more that just someone
who picks up interesting stuff at a yard sale might also be interested in
learning about the art. Are you honestly saying that art collectors are people
who blindly buy up art because someone else says that it's good art? I
certainly hope not. People are drawn to a particular style of art, or even the
work of a particular artist, because of the way they do something.

In terms of bonsai, when people see my trees, or even if they haven't seen them
but know I do bonsai as a hobby, they are interested in two things--what's my
oldest tree and how do you do bonsai. Very little variation.

What about this is so difficult for you to understand?
Why must we all be bonsai participants for the same reasons and in the same
manner? There's nothing "wrong" with these people. They simply have a
different mode of involvement in the community. I hope you can rewire your
mind with regard to this concept.
---------------



My mind doesn't need rewiring, Andy, except in the area of improving my
short-term memory so I can remember where I last put my checkbook or car keys.
We all have frameworks within which we think, and I see nothing wrong with the
way I think. Now who is engaging in demagoguery or malevolence? ;0}

My general, underlying opinion in this whole area is this: In order to advance
the art of bonsai, I feel it is necessary for it *not* to be elitist. The more
people who are involved, the better. The more we can do to dispell the still
commonly-held view that there is an Asian "secret" to bonsai that only
initiates know, the better off we all are. This is related to the separate
thread on Zen, and Peter Aradi's concern that "Zen" is heavily misused as a
term to describe something sublime. There is no mystery or "zen" in bonsai in
terms of how to do it. I think we agree on that. The difficulty in our
understanding each other's positions is that we may be approaching from
different directions.

Also, why is competing in a contest the highest level of bonsai for some?
---------------
Again, you're misconstruing the point. It is not "the highest" level of
bonsai.

You missed the "for some."

It is simply a facet of our endeavor that here in the U.S. is done
very poorly and with ridiculous methods. I merely ask that we redefine our
approach. Why is this so difficult to consider?
---------------

Well, you've already given your reason, but don't assume that it is
crystal-clear to everyone else. For me, I just don't agree.
Craig Cowing
---------------

Now this I can understand and take at face value. Yes, perhaps you simply
disagree with my thrust. Fair enough. But please don't deform my arguments
so that you can more easily argue against them. Thanks.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.andyrutledge.com/palaver/main.htm
zone 8, Texas

I don't intend to deform your arguments, Andy, just point out the garden path
that they can lead us down. There is a difference.

One last statement: I see nothing wrong with a person who collects bonsai but
has them maintained by someone else. To my mind this is no different than a
well-off person hiring someone to do their gardening for them. But when it
comes to exhibiting a bonsai, especially in a competitive exhibition, I feel
the attribution should be given to the artist who maintains the tree as well as
the owner. This is no different than an art collector loaning his/her
Rembrandt to the Metropolitan, and having the attribution go to Rembrandt, not
the collector. This can also advance the art of bonsai by making that
particular artist's work better-known, and give them more clients.

Besides, who wouldn't want to show off a tree styled by John Naka or Nick Lenz
or Colin Lewis?

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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Craig,

I appreciate your responses here. Perhaps we can begin to clear up some of
our misunderstanding and discriminatory views... (the last point at the end
of this page is the most important, IMO)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Cowing"
You see, this is where I find the fallacy--a simple cause and effect
argument.
You seem to see this dearth of collectors/non-enthusiasts as being caused
by a
blindspot in the vision of bonsai organizations. I see it as a function
of the
extreme youth of the bonsai community in this country and in the West in
general. I also see it as a function of our society and it's rampant
individualism, which at times, I must admit, irritates me.
-------------

Okay, I'm not addressing the fullness of the issues surrounding the dearth
of bonsai art collectors. Rather, I'm addressing/discussing the one issue
that we have control over. It is ridiculous to believe that any one factor
is currently responsible for this situation. Of course our endeavor is
young in this country. However, unless we address "our house," no amount of
time will be enough for collectors to find a comfortable place in our
community. Please don't mistake my discussion focus for blinders. I've
never said that these things I cite are "the" reason. They are just what
"we" can do. I hope this helps to better explain my thrust.
-------------

No, they don't, but it seems to me that a person who is more that just
someone
who picks up interesting stuff at a yard sale might also be interested in
learning about the art. Are you honestly saying that art collectors are
people
who blindly buy up art because someone else says that it's good art? I
certainly hope not. People are drawn to a particular style of art, or
even the
work of a particular artist, because of the way they do something.

In terms of bonsai, when people see my trees, or even if they haven't seen
them
but know I do bonsai as a hobby, they are interested in two things--what's
my
oldest tree and how do you do bonsai. Very little variation.
--------------

Yes. Let me put it this way: I know several art collectors - people who
collect a particular art or style of art or works from a specific artist.
In every case, even though they are enamored of this work/art/medium, they
possess no inclination to try and acquire the skills/knowledge needed to
produce such things. They're enthusiastic collectors, not artists. This
would seem to be a very common tale in the arts world. Just because the
medium in question here is bonsai is no reason to think that everything
about the collectors is somehow different.
--------------

My mind doesn't need rewiring, Andy, except in the area of improving my
short-term memory so I can remember where I last put my checkbook or car
keys.
We all have frameworks within which we think, and I see nothing wrong with
the
way I think. Now who is engaging in demagoguery or malevolence? ;0}
--------------

:-) Yes. I'm being particularly pointed in my responses (today) because of
what I perceive attacks on my effort and my words. I'm quite happy to
discuss things in a civil and logical manner, but not in the face of
distortions and misapplied quotes/characterizations. I'll be happy to
respond in kind to your end. I hope that we're done with the pointedness.
-------------

My general, underlying opinion in this whole area is this: In order to
advance
the art of bonsai, I feel it is necessary for it *not* to be elitist. The
more
people who are involved, the better.
-------------

This is great, but I again hope that you're not suggesting that anything
I've put forth has anything at all to do with elitism. You are in fact
contradicting yourself. You say "The more people who are involved, the
better," but you seem fully prepared to ignore/segregate collectors. Why?

I hope that you realize the important distinction between elite and elitist.
If you do not, you're not qualified to have this discussion. If you do, why
do you insist on characterizing the ADDITION of a group of enthusiasts to
our community as an elitist effort? By your own admission, the addition of
more enthusiasts is better. Does the fact that affluent enthusiasts can
afford to participate at a level different from your own or can purchase
bonsai art of a quality higher than someone else can bother you so much that
you lose perspective? "Elite" is great. "Elitist" is bad, derogatory and
inflamatory. There has been no mention of elitism here - except by you.

Class / income envy has no place in this discussion.
-------------

I don't intend to deform your arguments, Andy, just point out the garden
path
that they can lead us down. There is a difference.
-------------

Let me point out that whether or not you intend it, you've not so much
pointed out the logical path of what I've mentioned as you have pointed out
the logical path of what you've made up. Again, you've addressed your own
distorted view of my posit - not my actual posits. There's a difference.

I'm addressing your finishing statement in another message (Judged exhibit
lunacy)

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.andyrutledge.com/palaver/main.htm
zone 8, Texas

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Gents,

Looks like it's time for you two to settle this off list. Please.

Shelly Hurd Central CA - List Manager.

----- Original Message -----
From: Andy Rutledge
To:
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 10:39 AM
Subject: [IBC] '03 award programs


Craig,

I appreciate your responses here. Perhaps we can begin to clear up some of
our misunderstanding and discriminatory views... (the last point at the end
of this page is the most important, IMO)

SNIP

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Andy Rutledge wrote:

Craig,

I appreciate your responses here. Perhaps we can begin to clear up some of
our misunderstanding and discriminatory views... (the last point at the end
of this page is the most important, IMO)

snip

Let me put it this way: I know several art collectors - people who
collect a particular art or style of art or works from a specific artist.
In every case, even though they are enamored of this work/art/medium, they
possess no inclination to try and acquire the skills/knowledge needed to
produce such things. They're enthusiastic collectors, not artists. This
would seem to be a very common tale in the arts world. Just because the
medium in question here is bonsai is no reason to think that everything
about the collectors is somehow different.
-

No--not acquiring the skills--learning *about* the skills. Watching someone
else do it. That's all. What else would you do at a bonsai club meeting?

snip

This is great, but I again hope that you're not suggesting that anything
I've put forth has anything at all to do with elitism. You are in fact
contradicting yourself. You say "The more people who are involved, the
better," but you seem fully prepared to ignore/segregate collectors. Why?

I'm not prepared to ignore them at all. As I said at the end of my last post,
I have no problem with people who collect trees but have someone else maintain
them. I just don't like it when someone wants to put a tree in an exhibition
under their name when they don't deserve the credit for it's production.
That's it.

I hope that you realize the important distinction between elite and elitist.
If you do not, you're not qualified to have this discussion.

Andy, after 4 years of college, 6 years of graduate study and 2 of postgraduate
study I think I am qualified for this discussion and can understand the
difference between the terms.

If you do, why
do you insist on characterizing the ADDITION of a group of enthusiasts to
our community as an elitist effort?

The addition of such people to the community is not elitist.

By your own admission, the addition of
more enthusiasts is better.

Yep.

Does the fact that affluent enthusiasts can
afford to participate at a level different from your own or can purchase
bonsai art of a quality higher than someone else can bother you so much that
you lose perspective?

Not a bit.

"Elite" is great. "Elitist" is bad, derogatory and
inflamatory. There has been no mention of elitism here - except by you.

Class / income envy has no place in this discussion.

Right. Except in reference to the above. It is insulting (and I've heard of
this happening in club shows) for a person who has the financial wherewithal to
go out and buy a tree two weeks before an exhibit and put the tree in the
exhibit under their name, when generally most of the trees in such an exhibit
have been produced by the individuals themselves.

I don't intend to deform your arguments, Andy, just point out the garden
path
that they can lead us down. There is a difference.
-------------

Let me point out that whether or not you intend it, you've not so much
pointed out the logical path of what I've mentioned as you have pointed out
the logical path of what you've made up. Again, you've addressed your own
distorted view of my posit - not my actual posits. There's a difference.

No, it's not necessarily the logical path, but a danger.


I'm addressing your finishing statement in another message (Judged exhibit
lunacy)

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.andyrutledge.com/palaver/main.htm
zone 8, Texas

:-) !!
Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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I wonder if one of you two could summarize this too long thread.




On Tuesday, January 13, 2004, at 02:14 PM, Craig Cowing wrote:

Andy Rutledge wrote:

Craig,

I appreciate your responses here. Perhaps we can begin to clear up
some of
our misunderstanding and discriminatory views... (the last point at
the end
of this page is the most important, IMO)

Bob Seele
Nicely outside of Chicago
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler :
Albert Einstein

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I am pretty certain that I have seen/heard about antique or collectable car
shows with various contests. I know that several I have heard about had
contests for the restorers of a car, judges at least partially on
before/after pictures, difficulty of repair or fabrication, etc. (maybe
this would be an analog of the hobbyist contest). They also had contests
(which I don't understand how they were judged) for best cars in various
categories or vintages - regardless if the owner was the restorer, or an
owner/collector.

Then again, there are "Show and Shine" get-togethers, where people who are
into restoring or collecting vintage cars just get together, show each other
their babies and enjoy a mutual love.

This might be pretty off-topic, but it seems that it at least touches upon
some of the issues that have been mentioned. In this case it appears there
are contests for "best work done by an enthusiast", AND there is judging
done for particularly fine examples or specimens. This isn't a hobby I am
into, but my father-in-law restores early model Fords, and has mentioned
some of the shows and awards several times.

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Art collectors don't
necessarily have any interest in learning how to "do" the art.
They instead
COLLECT the art.

Yeahbut . . . ART collectors as most people understand the term
only have to dust their collection occasionally.

Bonsai are unlike other "art" forms (I'm assuming something here
that I don't necessarily think applies to all bonsai) in that if
the collector doesn't at least water them, the investment in the
"art" will dry up and blow away. Since, unless the collector has
live-in staff whose job is solely to maintain his collection
(unlikely) rather than contract help who drop by every so often
or on a schedule, he should (I'd think) want to be able to at
least take emergency actions if someone dumps a martini or spills
toilet-bowl cleaner on the roots of a Kimura pine.

Even if a collector's paintings get slashed, she can wait to get
them restored at the convenience of the restorer. That option
isn't available for a drunken or poisoned pine. The Collector
needs to be able to repot -- and NOW!

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The ignorant
man marvels at the exceptional; the wise man marvels at the
common; the greatest wonder of all is the regularity of
nature. -- George Dana Bordman

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Craig: You pretty much had me up to here. I can see and agree how Andy
would see this as a sort of reverse snobbery, if you "merely" bought it,
you have no right to claim it or any other assumption someone might have
by seeing the owner's name.
Frankly, when it comes to exhibits, people who own very nice
bonsai do NOT want their name publicized due to security concerns.
Since bonsai need to be grown outdoors, security is always an issue, and
having your name appended to a fine specimen subjects you to the same
risks of theft as having your name in the obituary column. There have
always been schmucks who will exploit this.
I really haven't heard a lot of clamor for the sort of
competition for which Andy is lobbying, but I know that if a clamor
develops, the need will be fulfilled. Simple supply and demand
economics.
Andy is spot on, however, that there is a lot of snobbery in the
bonsai community towards "collectors" (as opposed to hobbyists). I
believe he errs in ascribing this to bonsai organizations rather than to
individuals within those organizations. While his rhetoric is drawing
attention to the problem, I just hope it doesn't counterproductively
alienate with its intensity and personalizations.
Alan Walker
http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org

-----Original Message-----
SNIP
This is great, but I again hope that you're not suggesting that
anything
I've put forth has anything at all to do with elitism. You are in
fact
contradicting yourself. You say "The more people who are involved,
the
better," but you seem fully prepared to ignore/segregate collectors.
Why?

I'm not prepared to ignore them at all. As I said at the end of my last
post, I have no problem with people who collect trees but have someone
else maintain them. I just don't like it when someone wants to put a
tree in an exhibition under their name when they don't deserve the
credit for its production. That's it.
SNIP
Craig Cowing

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Walker"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 8:43 PM
Subject: [IBC] '03 award programs

Snip:
I
believe he errs in ascribing this to bonsai organizations rather than to
individuals within those organizations. While his rhetoric is drawing
attention to the problem, I just hope it doesn't counterproductively
alienate with its intensity and personalizations.
Alan Walker

Too late!
No one likes a world wide web rhetorical browbeating if they don't agree
with something.
It seems ( to me anyway) this is happening a lot with this author and
subject lately. It makes discussion of it to much hassle to bother!
Dale

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I have leaped into this discussion with the thought in
mind that there is no new information stated just more
clever rhetoric.

Why do we have to agree? Are we into Bonsai or just
all frustrated linguists belaboring a semantic
difference? I mean, you are taking phrases out of
eiach othere text and trying to make them wrong. What
about the whole message. Can't we appreciate the
differences? Can we supply new information if we must
continue?

What I hear Andy say is if clubs and or their memebers
or govening board would seek out collectors as
members, then this problem of not seeing wonderous
privately collected trees would go away. To me it is
a wish and not a demand and I don't see anything wrong
with that.

Kitsune Miko
--- dalecochoy wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Walker"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 8:43 PM
Subject: [IBC] '03 award programs

Snip:
I
believe he errs in ascribing this to bonsai
organizations rather than to
individuals within those organizations. While his
rhetoric is drawing
attention to the problem, I just hope it doesn't
counterproductively
alienate with its intensity and personalizations.
Alan Walker

Too late!
No one likes a world wide web rhetorical browbeating
if they don't agree
with something.
It seems ( to me anyway) this is happening a lot
with this author and
subject lately. It makes discussion of it to much
hassle to bother!
Dale


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