Alan,

I hear you about "fools rush in"! But I am very intrested in this point
about the compost teas.

Austin is very big on organics, and many nurseries are selling freshly
brewed compost teas at $7/gal. It's being praised by a local garden guru
as the very grail of gardening. This guru also promotes "paramagnetism"
for more vigorous roots. So when he hands me Kool-Aid, I don't drink it;
and when he pitches me compost tea, despite his beautiful plants, I'm
reluctant to use it. And now I hear that the good stuff in compost can
turn bad when give the chance.

I recognize that it is largely a matter of hygiene, but not all of the
plants in my collection have had good sub-surface hygiene before coming to
my bench. In other words, many of my trees are in various stages of good
potting culture, despite my best efforts.

I'm just curious to know if this aerobiclly brewed compost tea people are
selling is potentially dangerous.

Cheers,
Jim

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In a message dated 4/12/2005 1:41:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
writes:

I'm just curious to know if this aerobically brewed compost tea people are
selling is potentially dangerous.

The "real" organic gardeners are into "do it yourself because you know
the ingredients."
In theory compost tea is safe because of the heat generated by the
composting process, but what went into the compost?
If the compost was made from lawn clippings heavily treated with
herbicides, chemical fertilizers and insecticides how safe is it?
Or, if the compost tea was made from diseased material and the
temperature was not high enough?

Billy on the Florida Space Coast

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Austin is very big on organics, and many nurseries are selling
freshly
brewed compost teas at $7/gal. It's being praised by a local garden
guru
as the very grail of gardening. This guru also promotes
"paramagnetism"
for more vigorous roots.

Yes, on Long Island you can buy homeopathic, magnetic compost tea!
That's right, I said magnetic; it contains ground-up magnets. And I
said homeopathic: one teaspoon of tea to 100 gallons of water, but be
assured that the "vibrations" from the compost molecules are
transforming the water, and making your lawn green and healthy.

On Long Island, we had to understand compost tea because our growers
were hypnotised by it (as well as electrostatic generators and cow
horns that focussed bioenergy). We also had a lawn-waste compost
industry that was pressuring us to come up with more uses for the
stuff, so they could make a profit. So I can say a few things about
it.

1) The source matters. The lawn waste compost was poor quality and it
contained so many pesticide residues that it was inhibitory if used on
tomatoes. Whereas composted malt and barley from out fledgling beer
industry was GREAT STUFF that dramatically increased the percent
organic material and improved the texture of agricultural soil. It
also had a high microbial activity as measured by fluoroscein diacetate
assays.

2) It's true: pathogens are largely killed by temperatures that won't
kill beneficial bacteria. But it's hard for anything but a big,
professional operation to get even, consistent heating. Most
home-composters can't do it, and sloppy operations can't do it. The
risk of getting disease by using poorly prepared compost is minimal,
compared to using, say, regular soil. But it can happen.

3) I've got friends who study compost tea. They have found minimal
benefits for disease control. But the quality of tea varies from batch
to batch, and it's difficult to replicate anything. I can't say that
*no* tea works, just that it's hard to study. Especially hard to study
is "induced resistance", where mycorrhiza or compost tea or various
other things are supposed to trigger the plant's natural defenses. You
can find studies that say everything from "it works" to "it doesn't" to
"it's detrimental". I've seen studies that show that a pathogen sets
up induced resistance to itself in a host plant. Think about it. How
well can that work, if it's a pathogen?

I think everyone should have a compost heap, but I'm skipping the tea,
the magnets and the cow-horns, thanks.

I should probably stand by and let the experts run this
one, but fools rush in....
Who said that the heat kills only the bad things? Truth
be told, I suspect that some of both survive and most of both are
cooked.
But that misses the bigger point. Dealing with root rot
is a matter of prevention. Keeping a healthy tree in coarse, well
draining soil with good aeration and nutrition are the way to go.
A really healthy tree is not going to have a problem with these
nasties in the first place. It's only when we ignore or neglect
what we know about good horticulture that we have to deal with
root rot in the first place.
I should know. I've been guilty often enough myself more
times than I'm comfortable acknowledging.
Alan Walker
http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Trahan

"Compost tea uses a good deal of heat (in addition to the heat
generated in the making of good garden-type compost) in the
process of making it. It should be free of pathogens as a
result."

Jim, so how is it that heat kills the varmints but keeps the
critters? That
is, if both good and bad algae/fungi are exposed to heat, why is
it that
only the pathogenic forms are killed by this heat?

Well, I replied privately to the effect that in the process of
normal composting, it seems that the "baddies" are more
susceptible to heat than the "good guys." Of course, this won't
be 100%, but that's essentially why composting works and you
don't kill (via root rot or other disease) whatever you plant in
that "black gold" after you've made it.

I don't KNOW, but assume, that the additional heat required to
make useful compost tea -- and the stuff is barely useful at
that! -- has a similar effect.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - When we see
land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it
with love and respect - Aldo Leopold - A Sand County Almanac

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I'm just curious to know if this aerobiclly brewed compost tea people are
selling is potentially dangerous.


Sure if it sits around and isn't used soon after it is made (or
opened in the case of a commercial product). Mere exposure to
air in a garden situation leaves it open to contamination, and
the longer (or more often) the exposure that more likely there
will be baddies getting in an fermenting in that nutrient soup.

Buy (or make) it and use it! But again, benefits are small --
either as a fertilizer or a fungicide.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature
encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Nina wrote:


SNIP

I can't say that
*no* tea works, just that it's hard to study. Especially hard to study
is "induced resistance", where mycorrhiza or compost tea or various
other things are supposed to trigger the plant's natural defenses. You
can find studies that say everything from "it works" to "it doesn't" to
"it's detrimental". I've seen studies that show that a pathogen sets
up induced resistance to itself in a host plant. Think about it. How
well can that work, if it's a pathogen?

I think everyone should have a compost heap, but I'm skipping the tea,
the magnets and the cow-horns, thanks.

Yup. :-)

Between us you get the ol' one-two punch -- and SHE adds
magnetism!

(I have a garden supply catalog in my possession which
advertises a magnet that you fasten to your water pipes that
"magnetizes" the calcium out of your water. Just $35.00. Beats
the hell out of a water softening system!

If you believe that . . . I have a bridge . . . or, 5,000
gallons of stuporthrive -- to sell you.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature
encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson

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In article 425A8FEF.20130.63250A@localhost,
(Jim Lewis) wrote:

Why? Compost tea uses a good deal of heat (in addition to the heat
generated in the making of good garden-type compost) in the process of
making it. It should be free of pathogens as a result.

Compost tea is made using *unheated* water, according to all the
instructions I've seen. It may get warm sitting in the sun, but nowhere
near enough to kill any pathogens. The only significant heat involved is
that which occurs during composting, before you make the tea.

Here are some articles about making compost tea:

http://www.taunton.com/finegardening/pages/g00030.asp
http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/deputate/airwaste/wm/recycle/Tea/tea1.htm
http://www.ann-mccormick.com/HerbNCowgirl/CompostTea.htm
http://perc.ca/PEN/1997-12-01/king.html
http://www.hgtv.com/hgtv/gl_soil_wat...3634_1369956,0
0.html


Organic gardeners say that this tea does have some fungicidal uses, but
they also admit it is very slight.

Scientific opinion seems to be divided on the alleged fungicidal properties
of compost tea. There probably hasn't been enough solid research to give a
clear answer.

In article 425A8FEF.20130.63250A@localhost,
(Jim Lewis) wrote:

Why? Compost tea uses a good deal of heat (in addition to the heat
generated in the making of good garden-type compost) in the process of
making it. It should be free of pathogens as a result.

Compost tea is made using *unheated* water, according to all the
instructions I've seen. It may get warm sitting in the sun, but nowhere
near enough to kill any pathogens.

Well, around here you don't want to hold the bottle for any
length of time after it's been in full sun all day.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - People,
when Columbus discovered this country, it was plum full of nuts
and berries. And I'm right here to tell you (that) the berries
are just about all gone. -- Uncle Dave Macon, musician

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In article 425BD740.6334.17DC4EC@localhost,
(Jim Lewis) wrote:

In article 425A8FEF.20130.63250A@localhost,
(Jim Lewis) wrote:

Why? Compost tea uses a good deal of heat (in addition to the heat
generated in the making of good garden-type compost) in the process of
making it. It should be free of pathogens as a result.

Compost tea is made using *unheated* water, according to all the
instructions I've seen. It may get warm sitting in the sun, but nowhere
near enough to kill any pathogens.

Well, around here you don't want to hold the bottle for any
length of time after it's been in full sun all day.

If you're referring to the smell, the instructions I found say that you
shouldn't use it if it smells bad; it should smell sweet & earthy. Using
aquarium equipment to keep it aerated supposedly inhibits the growth of the
anaerobic bugs that cause bad smells.

In article 425BD740.6334.17DC4EC@localhost,
(Jim Lewis) wrote:

In article 425A8FEF.20130.63250A@localhost,
(Jim Lewis) wrote:

Why? Compost tea uses a good deal of heat (in addition to the heat
generated in the making of good garden-type compost) in the process of
making it. It should be free of pathogens as a result.

Compost tea is made using *unheated* water, according to all the
instructions I've seen. It may get warm sitting in the sun, but nowhere
near enough to kill any pathogens.

Well, around here you don't want to hold the bottle for any
length of time after it's been in full sun all day.

If you're referring to the smell, the instructions I found say that you
shouldn't use it if it smells bad; it should smell sweet & earthy. Using
aquarium equipment to keep it aerated supposedly inhibits the growth of the
anaerobic bugs that cause bad smells.


No. The bottle -- assuming it is clear glass -- gets hot!

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature
encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson

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In article 425BFF22.13803.219962F@localhost,
(Jim Lewis) wrote:

In article 425BD740.6334.17DC4EC@localhost,
(Jim Lewis) wrote:

In article 425A8FEF.20130.63250A@localhost,
(Jim Lewis) wrote:

Why? Compost tea uses a good deal of heat (in addition to the
heat generated in the making of good garden-type compost) in the
process of making it. It should be free of pathogens as a
result.

Compost tea is made using *unheated* water, according to all the
instructions I've seen. It may get warm sitting in the sun, but
nowhere near enough to kill any pathogens.

Well, around here you don't want to hold the bottle for any length
of time after it's been in full sun all day.

If you're referring to the smell, the instructions I found say that
you shouldn't use it if it smells bad; it should smell sweet & earthy.
Using aquarium equipment to keep it aerated supposedly inhibits the
growth of the anaerobic bugs that cause bad smells.


No. The bottle -- assuming it is clear glass -- gets hot!

Ah. Well, the instructions I've seen say to use a 2- to 5-gallon bucket or
garbage pail, and the ones with photos show white plastic buckets. Even a
black plastic bucket wouldn't get that hot just sitting in the sun.