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#16
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Alan,
I hear you about "fools rush in"! But I am very intrested in this point about the compost teas. Austin is very big on organics, and many nurseries are selling freshly brewed compost teas at $7/gal. It's being praised by a local garden guru as the very grail of gardening. This guru also promotes "paramagnetism" for more vigorous roots. So when he hands me Kool-Aid, I don't drink it; and when he pitches me compost tea, despite his beautiful plants, I'm reluctant to use it. And now I hear that the good stuff in compost can turn bad when give the chance. I recognize that it is largely a matter of hygiene, but not all of the plants in my collection have had good sub-surface hygiene before coming to my bench. In other words, many of my trees are in various stages of good potting culture, despite my best efforts. I'm just curious to know if this aerobiclly brewed compost tea people are selling is potentially dangerous. Cheers, Jim ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#18
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Austin is very big on organics, and many nurseries are selling freshly brewed compost teas at $7/gal. It's being praised by a local garden guru as the very grail of gardening. This guru also promotes "paramagnetism" for more vigorous roots. Yes, on Long Island you can buy homeopathic, magnetic compost tea! That's right, I said magnetic; it contains ground-up magnets. And I said homeopathic: one teaspoon of tea to 100 gallons of water, but be assured that the "vibrations" from the compost molecules are transforming the water, and making your lawn green and healthy. On Long Island, we had to understand compost tea because our growers were hypnotised by it (as well as electrostatic generators and cow horns that focussed bioenergy). We also had a lawn-waste compost industry that was pressuring us to come up with more uses for the stuff, so they could make a profit. So I can say a few things about it. 1) The source matters. The lawn waste compost was poor quality and it contained so many pesticide residues that it was inhibitory if used on tomatoes. Whereas composted malt and barley from out fledgling beer industry was GREAT STUFF that dramatically increased the percent organic material and improved the texture of agricultural soil. It also had a high microbial activity as measured by fluoroscein diacetate assays. 2) It's true: pathogens are largely killed by temperatures that won't kill beneficial bacteria. But it's hard for anything but a big, professional operation to get even, consistent heating. Most home-composters can't do it, and sloppy operations can't do it. The risk of getting disease by using poorly prepared compost is minimal, compared to using, say, regular soil. But it can happen. 3) I've got friends who study compost tea. They have found minimal benefits for disease control. But the quality of tea varies from batch to batch, and it's difficult to replicate anything. I can't say that *no* tea works, just that it's hard to study. Especially hard to study is "induced resistance", where mycorrhiza or compost tea or various other things are supposed to trigger the plant's natural defenses. You can find studies that say everything from "it works" to "it doesn't" to "it's detrimental". I've seen studies that show that a pathogen sets up induced resistance to itself in a host plant. Think about it. How well can that work, if it's a pathogen? I think everyone should have a compost heap, but I'm skipping the tea, the magnets and the cow-horns, thanks. |
#19
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I should probably stand by and let the experts run this
one, but fools rush in.... Who said that the heat kills only the bad things? Truth be told, I suspect that some of both survive and most of both are cooked. But that misses the bigger point. Dealing with root rot is a matter of prevention. Keeping a healthy tree in coarse, well draining soil with good aeration and nutrition are the way to go. A really healthy tree is not going to have a problem with these nasties in the first place. It's only when we ignore or neglect what we know about good horticulture that we have to deal with root rot in the first place. I should know. I've been guilty often enough myself more times than I'm comfortable acknowledging. Alan Walker http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org -----Original Message----- From: Jim Trahan "Compost tea uses a good deal of heat (in addition to the heat generated in the making of good garden-type compost) in the process of making it. It should be free of pathogens as a result." Jim, so how is it that heat kills the varmints but keeps the critters? That is, if both good and bad algae/fungi are exposed to heat, why is it that only the pathogenic forms are killed by this heat? Well, I replied privately to the effect that in the process of normal composting, it seems that the "baddies" are more susceptible to heat than the "good guys." Of course, this won't be 100%, but that's essentially why composting works and you don't kill (via root rot or other disease) whatever you plant in that "black gold" after you've made it. I don't KNOW, but assume, that the additional heat required to make useful compost tea -- and the stuff is barely useful at that! -- has a similar effect. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect - Aldo Leopold - A Sand County Almanac ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#20
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I'm just curious to know if this aerobiclly brewed compost tea people are
selling is potentially dangerous. Sure if it sits around and isn't used soon after it is made (or opened in the case of a commercial product). Mere exposure to air in a garden situation leaves it open to contamination, and the longer (or more often) the exposure that more likely there will be baddies getting in an fermenting in that nutrient soup. Buy (or make) it and use it! But again, benefits are small -- either as a fertilizer or a fungicide. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#21
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Nina wrote:
SNIP I can't say that *no* tea works, just that it's hard to study. Especially hard to study is "induced resistance", where mycorrhiza or compost tea or various other things are supposed to trigger the plant's natural defenses. You can find studies that say everything from "it works" to "it doesn't" to "it's detrimental". I've seen studies that show that a pathogen sets up induced resistance to itself in a host plant. Think about it. How well can that work, if it's a pathogen? I think everyone should have a compost heap, but I'm skipping the tea, the magnets and the cow-horns, thanks. Yup. :-) Between us you get the ol' one-two punch -- and SHE adds magnetism! (I have a garden supply catalog in my possession which advertises a magnet that you fasten to your water pipes that "magnetizes" the calcium out of your water. Just $35.00. Beats the hell out of a water softening system! If you believe that . . . I have a bridge . . . or, 5,000 gallons of stuporthrive -- to sell you. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#22
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In article 425A8FEF.20130.63250A@localhost,
(Jim Lewis) wrote: Why? Compost tea uses a good deal of heat (in addition to the heat generated in the making of good garden-type compost) in the process of making it. It should be free of pathogens as a result. Compost tea is made using *unheated* water, according to all the instructions I've seen. It may get warm sitting in the sun, but nowhere near enough to kill any pathogens. The only significant heat involved is that which occurs during composting, before you make the tea. Here are some articles about making compost tea: http://www.taunton.com/finegardening/pages/g00030.asp http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/deputate/airwaste/wm/recycle/Tea/tea1.htm http://www.ann-mccormick.com/HerbNCowgirl/CompostTea.htm http://perc.ca/PEN/1997-12-01/king.html http://www.hgtv.com/hgtv/gl_soil_wat...3634_1369956,0 0.html Organic gardeners say that this tea does have some fungicidal uses, but they also admit it is very slight. Scientific opinion seems to be divided on the alleged fungicidal properties of compost tea. There probably hasn't been enough solid research to give a clear answer. |
#23
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In article 425A8FEF.20130.63250A@localhost,
(Jim Lewis) wrote: Why? Compost tea uses a good deal of heat (in addition to the heat generated in the making of good garden-type compost) in the process of making it. It should be free of pathogens as a result. Compost tea is made using *unheated* water, according to all the instructions I've seen. It may get warm sitting in the sun, but nowhere near enough to kill any pathogens. Well, around here you don't want to hold the bottle for any length of time after it's been in full sun all day. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plum full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you (that) the berries are just about all gone. -- Uncle Dave Macon, musician ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#24
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In article 425BD740.6334.17DC4EC@localhost,
(Jim Lewis) wrote: In article 425A8FEF.20130.63250A@localhost, (Jim Lewis) wrote: Why? Compost tea uses a good deal of heat (in addition to the heat generated in the making of good garden-type compost) in the process of making it. It should be free of pathogens as a result. Compost tea is made using *unheated* water, according to all the instructions I've seen. It may get warm sitting in the sun, but nowhere near enough to kill any pathogens. Well, around here you don't want to hold the bottle for any length of time after it's been in full sun all day. If you're referring to the smell, the instructions I found say that you shouldn't use it if it smells bad; it should smell sweet & earthy. Using aquarium equipment to keep it aerated supposedly inhibits the growth of the anaerobic bugs that cause bad smells. |
#25
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In article 425BD740.6334.17DC4EC@localhost,
(Jim Lewis) wrote: In article 425A8FEF.20130.63250A@localhost, (Jim Lewis) wrote: Why? Compost tea uses a good deal of heat (in addition to the heat generated in the making of good garden-type compost) in the process of making it. It should be free of pathogens as a result. Compost tea is made using *unheated* water, according to all the instructions I've seen. It may get warm sitting in the sun, but nowhere near enough to kill any pathogens. Well, around here you don't want to hold the bottle for any length of time after it's been in full sun all day. If you're referring to the smell, the instructions I found say that you shouldn't use it if it smells bad; it should smell sweet & earthy. Using aquarium equipment to keep it aerated supposedly inhibits the growth of the anaerobic bugs that cause bad smells. No. The bottle -- assuming it is clear glass -- gets hot! Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#26
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In article 425BFF22.13803.219962F@localhost,
(Jim Lewis) wrote: In article 425BD740.6334.17DC4EC@localhost, (Jim Lewis) wrote: In article 425A8FEF.20130.63250A@localhost, (Jim Lewis) wrote: Why? Compost tea uses a good deal of heat (in addition to the heat generated in the making of good garden-type compost) in the process of making it. It should be free of pathogens as a result. Compost tea is made using *unheated* water, according to all the instructions I've seen. It may get warm sitting in the sun, but nowhere near enough to kill any pathogens. Well, around here you don't want to hold the bottle for any length of time after it's been in full sun all day. If you're referring to the smell, the instructions I found say that you shouldn't use it if it smells bad; it should smell sweet & earthy. Using aquarium equipment to keep it aerated supposedly inhibits the growth of the anaerobic bugs that cause bad smells. No. The bottle -- assuming it is clear glass -- gets hot! Ah. Well, the instructions I've seen say to use a 2- to 5-gallon bucket or garbage pail, and the ones with photos show white plastic buckets. Even a black plastic bucket wouldn't get that hot just sitting in the sun. |
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