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Organic Gardening in a Hotter, Drier World
Tropic of Chaos: Climate Change and the New Geography of Violence by Christian Parenti (Jun 28, 2011) http://www.amazon.com/Tropic-Chaos-C...ce/dp/15685860 00/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1311984718&sr=1-1 (Available at a library near you.) 172 TROPIC OF CHAOS Welcome to the hot scrublands of the Nordeste and the tiny village of Boqueirao in Brazil's Ceara Province. The Nordeste is semiarid, receiving very little rain. Severe floods punctuate its frequent droughts. The majority of climate models find that northeast Brazil "is expected to experience more rapid warming than the global average during the 21st century." In more concrete terms, most forecasts predict northeastern Brazil will be a region of very severe water stress by 2050. Rio's favelas (slums) are largely populated by people from these dry lands. Despite its harsh climate, the Northeast is densely populated.43 As climate change grinds down subsistence farmers, more Nordestinos leave to search for work either in the depressed cities of their nearby coastal areas, like Fortaleza and Recife, or down south in the megacities of Sao Palo and Rio. Thus, the social dimensions of the ecological crisis in the Nordeste (a front-line region for climate change) are expressed in cities as unemployment, makeshift housing, the narcotrade and violence. This community has twenty-seven families, most of them related to each other. In face of drought and flooding, they have begun to adapt both technologically and politically. First, they switched from mono-cropping cotton and beans, which require burning the fallow fields and using expensive chemical inputs, to a form of mixed-crop agroecological farming, agroforestry, and integrated pest management that uses few or no chemical pesticides or fertilizers. They are also using inventive forms of low-impact water-capturing and rain-harvesting technologies. Osmar and some of his compatriots take me across the road to show me "the system" and some of their alternative water-harvesting techniques. RIO'S AGONY 175 One method involves building "underground dams." It goes like this: First the farmers find a dry streambed or natural area of drainage. At the bottom of this feature, below and away from the slope of the hill, they dig a long ditch across the natural path of drainage. The ditch maybe one hundred or three hundred feet long and deep enough to hit solid rock‹here, about five to ten feet down. Then, within the ditch, they build a cement and rock wall‹or dam‹lined with heavy plastic. Then the ditch is filled in, and the wall is buried. This underground dam greatly slows the natural drainage and creates a moist and fertile field "upstream." The agroforestry crops are a mix of fruit trees, corn, cover crops, and climbing-vine crops. The fields seem abandoned due to the tangled mix of plant species. This lush mesh captures moisture and creates a balance of competing insects, limiting or eliminating the need for chemical pesticides. During the first three to five years, yields decrease, but then they increase as soil health improves. And the produce, as organic, commands higher prices. For individual plants that need irrigation, they attach punctured empty plastic soda bottles to stakes above the thirsty plant. With this form of low-tech drip irrigation, a farmer can feed an individual plant little bits of water, allowing the precious liquid to drip out slowly and only onto the plant that needs it. The farmers' list of ingenious methods is long and evolving, thanks in part to groups like the Catholic NGO Caritas, which works to spread knowledge of best practices among the communities. Altogether, these agroforestry or agroecological methods, which revive and enhance old ways, are in use all over the world. The IPCC mentions them in the Fourth Assessment Report: "Agroforestry using agroecologi- cal methods offers strong possibilities for maintaining biological diversity in Latin America, given the overlap between protected areas and agricultural zones."44 "The system," as the farmers call it, preserves and enhances the land's fertility and moisture, and because the fields are never left as bare ground, it helps prevent erosion. In the village of Bueno, I met Antonio Braga Mota. "The system is a balanced system. I was really surprised that we actually did not need fertilizer and pesticides to do this," said Antonio as we tour his vine- and tree-covered crops. "The traditional method was destructive. Burning depletes the land. Unfortunately, I did a lot of that. "He said even tapirs and rare birds are returning. He could be passionate about the system because he owned his land. He was not rich but had enough land to make the transition from main-stream methods to green farming. -- - Billy Both the House and Senate budget plan would have cut Social Security and Medicare, while cutting taxes on the wealthy. Kucinich noted that none of the government programs targeted for elimination or severe cutback in House Republican spending plans "appeared on the GAO's list of government programs at high risk of waste, fraud and abuse." http://www.politifact.com/ohio/state...is-kucinich/re p-dennis-kucinich-says-gop-budget-cuts-dont-targ/ [W]e have the situation with the deficit and the debt and spending and jobs. And itąs not that difficult to get out of it. The first thing you do is you get rid of corporate welfare. Thatąs hundreds of billions of dollars a year. The second is you tax corporations so that they donąt get away with no taxation. - Ralph Nader http://www.democracynow.org/2011/7/19/ralph_naders_solution_to_debt_crisis |
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Organic Gardening in a Hotter, Drier World
Billy wrote:
Tropic of Chaos: Climate Change and the New Geography of Violence by Christian Parenti (Jun 28, 2011) northeastern Brazil will be a region of very severe water stress by 2050. .... One method involves building "underground dams." It goes like this: First the farmers find a dry streambed or natural area of drainage. At the bottom of this feature, below and away from the slope of the hill, they dig a long ditch across the natural path of drainage. The ditch maybe one hundred or three hundred feet long and deep enough to hit solid rock‹here, about five to ten feet down. Then, within the ditch, they build a cement and rock wall‹or dam‹lined with heavy plastic. Then the ditch is filled in, and the wall is buried. This underground dam greatly slows the natural drainage and creates a moist and fertile field "upstream." all very interesting. in other arid climates with no severe drains/gullies you can line rocks across the ground and they will act as a water catch when it rains to slow down the water so that more soaks in. within a few years these rocks will become a line of plants and then small trees (if you can keep the goats/sheep from grazing it down). a tree line that gives shade and harbors birds/wildlife all from a simple thing like a line of rocks on the dirt. songbird |
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Organic Gardening in a Hotter, Drier World
On Sep 5, 2:27*pm, Billy wrote:
Tropic of Chaos: Climate Change and the New Geography of Violence by Christian Parenti (Jun 28, 2011) What a poorly written piece you present as evidence of organic best practices. Do you really know about the hydrology or even the geology of the area in this cherry picked book writers sociologist article? Seems to me you know even less about the anthropology of the region. So plastic coke bottles with holes in them are organic best practices? Sure glad the Catholic relief groups helped in the translation of this organic wonderment so as to better help us understand what your trying to say, It sounds so, I don't know...like so much gringo speak, further translated into something resembling your organic rants. How about telling us about the many droughts in that area, should man keep trying to build in that environment just because " He was not rich but had enough land to make the transition from main-stream methods to green farming". What was his main stream methods prior ? Slash and burn? I feel you need a better understand of the sciences. You really think green farming and some dam idea is going to keep him from starving in the next drought? Perhaps you really think that the dam idea is somehow unique to your book writer's organo POV on that area and that give them some special advantage? Do you even know some of the many other areas in the world that technique is used? The author neglects to mention that it is the surface dams that allow the many tribes to live in the region today. Bet ya didn't even know that there is a vast river under the Amazon a little further south, just as large at a depth of ~4000 ft? Also not a lot of nutrients going into that poor soil, which is worse than the soils in the Colorado and American River basins. The fate of these folks reads very similar to the Anasazi and the Maya. Do you know how many died in the last big drought there and when was it? Like your BS rants about C. Mann and his discovery of biochar that never was. You know nothing about the area, the people, or the land, much less the hydrology. Sure seem like your buying into this writer's book marketing scheme in the same way. Cherry picked doom and gloom , being oppressed by the " Man", escaping a world of violence and depression through the enlightenment of the world of Organic Superiority. ( cue the harps! down the lights, main spot center stage on coke bottles dripping water!). This one is a pathetic leap to organo is best, even for you billy boy. |
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Organic Gardening in a Hotter, Drier World
Gunner wrote:
Billy wrote: Tropic of Chaos: Climate Change and the New Geography of Violence by Christian Parenti (Jun 28, 2011) What a poorly written piece you present as evidence of organic best practices. Do you really know about the hydrology or even the geology of the area in this cherry picked book writers sociologist article? do you? Seems to me you know even less about the anthropology of the region. So plastic coke bottles with holes in them are organic best practices? Sure glad the Catholic relief groups helped in the translation of this organic wonderment so as to better help us understand what your trying to say, It sounds so, I don't know...like so much gringo speak, further translated into something resembling your organic rants. How about telling us about the many droughts in that area, should man keep trying to build in that environment just because " He was not rich but had enough land to make the transition from main-stream methods to green farming". What was his main stream methods prior ? Slash and burn? I feel you need a better understand of the sciences. the obvious trouble in many drought stricken areas is that the soil is being stripped bare by animal over grazing and then the winds remove the fertile topsoil and there goes their fertility. my readings over the years see the same cycle repeat in many areas (both historical and some evidence available for prehistoric events too). if you can keep the ground covered then it retains water, stays cooler. if you have a variety of covers then that increases diversity. are you arguing against either of these approaches being good things for any land? You really think green farming and some dam idea is going to keep him from starving in the next drought? if he can make enough in the wetter years then perhaps he can get through a drought. if he keeps the land covered then the soil will not be stripped by the winds in the next drought, so that when the rains return his land will be in much better shape than those who farm their land down to bare soil and leave it vacant (as they do here quite often all winter). Perhaps you really think that the dam idea is somehow unique to your book writer's organo POV on that area and that give them some special advantage? the advantage was stated plainly. they get more moisture retention and a higher water table for the area upslope from the dam. likely making for better crops and thus more production. also it likely keeps erosion in check a lot better than letting the gullies run at full torrent. Do you even know some of the many other areas in the world that technique is used? The author neglects to mention that it is the surface dams that allow the many tribes to live in the region today. Bet ya didn't even know that there is a vast river under the Amazon a little further south, just as large at a depth of ~4000 ft? Also not a lot of nutrients going into that poor soil, which is worse than the soils in the Colorado and American River basins. The fate of these folks reads very similar to the Anasazi and the Maya. Do you know how many died in the last big drought there and when was it? thousands to hundreds of thousands, but even more likely many more were killed by diseases than by drought (millions more). Like your BS rants about C. Mann and his discovery of biochar that never was. You know nothing about the area, the people, or the land, much less the hydrology. Sure seem like your buying into this writer's book marketing scheme in the same way. Cherry picked doom and gloom , being oppressed by the " Man", escaping a world of violence and depression through the enlightenment of the world of Organic Superiority. ( cue the harps! down the lights, main spot center stage on coke bottles dripping water!). This one is a pathetic leap to organo is best, even for you billy boy. . your rants miss the target quite often so Gunner i'd wish you'd sharpen it up too. talking about an underground river by the Amazon does nothing for the drought stricken parts of Africa. oh well, better luck next time, songbird |
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Organic Gardening in a Hotter, Drier World
Derald wrote:
What gets me is that advocates always seem to be so sure of themselves that "unintended consequences" never occurs to them despite millennia of human history that is filled with them. I fail to understand how a 21st-century "educated" citizen cannot recognize narrow-minded, ideological, pedantry and advocacy disguised as science or journalism and give it precisely the credence it deserves: Roughly the same credence we all give to someone else's religion. i dunno, the benefits seem pretty obvious to me. keeps the ground covered more and holds the water better. reduces the temperature as there is more shading. provides a variety of habitats instead of just the one. what are you seeing that is religious here? this is all basic multicropping that used to be done on small scale farms before. it's not particularly new it is more a return to what used to work just fine that was disrupted. i can imagine a few drawbacks, but nothing that cannot be mitigated. the more growth that is about during the wet years means there will be more fuel for wildfires in the dry years. a good design of the homestead using a big enough open space and materials that won't ignite could mitigate that problem. sure the dead stuff burns, but otherwise the ground is protected the rest of the time. selectively cutting and burying the dead stuff to increase the organic content of the soil (to hold moisture better and insulate the soil from the heat even further) could also go a long ways towards dealing with the fire hazard. as it is i think a lot of burning that is currently done is sending a lot of material into the air that could be more useful if buried and burned and turned into charcoal (however, the darker the soil the hotter it will get when exposed to the sun so that's going to be a trade off of sorts in places). unintended consequence of diversity or keeping water from running off too quickly? sure, the downstream folks aren't going to get as much runoff all at once, but they might get a smaller amount over a longer period of time. this is the same sort of effect that forests and prairies provide. invasive species? perhaps some dangers there, but we are talking semi-arid places aren't we? so i can't imagine this being a huge risk as compared to what the wetter areas of the world contend with (kudzu!). songbird |
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Organic Gardening in a Hotter, Drier World
"songbird" wrote in message
... Billy wrote: Tropic of Chaos: Climate Change and the New Geography of Violence by Christian Parenti (Jun 28, 2011) northeastern Brazil will be a region of very severe water stress by 2050. ... One method involves building "underground dams." It goes like this: First the farmers find a dry streambed or natural area of drainage. At the bottom of this feature, below and away from the slope of the hill, they dig a long ditch across the natural path of drainage. The ditch maybe one hundred or three hundred feet long and deep enough to hit solid rock‹here, about five to ten feet down. Then, within the ditch, they build a cement and rock wall‹or dam‹lined with heavy plastic. Then the ditch is filled in, and the wall is buried. This underground dam greatly slows the natural drainage and creates a moist and fertile field "upstream." all very interesting. in other arid climates with no severe drains/gullies you can line rocks across the ground and they will act as a water catch when it rains to slow down the water so that more soaks in. Standard practice in permaculture and other forms of land management but usually it's contour forming on farmland using a tractor/dozer and uses earth. They're called swales. within a few years these rocks will become a line of plants and then small trees (if you can keep the goats/sheep from grazing it down). a tree line that gives shade and harbors birds/wildlife all from a simple thing like a line of rocks on the dirt. songbird |
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Organic Gardening in a Hotter, Drier World
"Billy" wrote in message
Osmar and some of his compatriots take me across the road to show me "the system" and some of their alternative water-harvesting techniques. RIO'S AGONY 175 One method involves building "underground dams." It goes like this: First the farmers find a dry streambed or natural area of drainage. At the bottom of this feature, below and away from the slope of the hill, they dig a long ditch across the natural path of drainage. The ditch maybe one hundred or three hundred feet long and deep enough to hit solid rock‹here, about five to ten feet down. Then, within the ditch, they build a cement and rock wall‹or dam‹lined with heavy plastic. Tribal Aboriginals did a similar form of water storing in arid zones of Australia before the white man arrived here. IIRC, there are photos of such stores at the base of huge rock formation in the big Permaculture 'bible'. |
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Organic Gardening in a Hotter, Drier World
"Derald" wrote in message
What gets me is that advocates always seem to be so sure of themselves that "unintended consequences" never occurs to them despite millennia of human history that is filled with them. I fail to understand how a 21st-century "educated" citizen cannot recognize narrow-minded, ideological, pedantry and advocacy disguised as science or journalism and give it precisely the credence it deserves: Roughly the same credence we all give to someone else's religion. I do agree. It astounds me that so many people can be so narrow minded and remain so ignorant when faced with a world full of easily accessible information. Sadly most of the most vocal of those ignorant and uninformed seem to be your own fellow countrymen. Their comments often make me wonder why it is that many Americans know so little of the world outside their own borders. I guess when they face the same sorts of problems as little countries like Tuvalu and The Maldives they might open their eyes and/or use their brains. |
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Organic Gardening in a Hotter, Drier World
FarmI wrote:
songbird wrote: .... all very interesting. in other arid climates with no severe drains/gullies you can line rocks across the ground and they will act as a water catch when it rains to slow down the water so that more soaks in. Standard practice in permaculture and other forms of land management but usually it's contour forming on farmland using a tractor/dozer and uses earth. They're called swales. ah, the usage i'm familiar with for those is a sometimes marshy ground, not a particularly made structure -- though i can see how the term would be adapted/adopted for them too. the made structures i would call dams. here i call places seeps are catches where i gather water from a harder rain. i wouldn't call them swales because they are not marshy. songbird |
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Organic Gardening in a Hotter, Drier World
On Sep 7, 11:22 pm, songbird wrote: Gunner wrote: Billy wrote: Tropic of Chaos: Climate Change and the New Geography of Violence by Christian Parenti (Jun 28, 2011) Gunner writes What a poorly written piece you present as evidence of organic best practices. Do you really know about the hydrology or even the geology of the area in this cherry picked book writers sociologist article? To which the Birds reply: oh well, better luck next time, songbird Better luck, Bird? You got a C- on your test questions and a D for the essay defending stupid think. You generalize but you have no clue as to the specific regional area billy's book writer is talking about. Kinda like billy BSing about Mann and Biochar. Africa? Well if you’re talking about the fact the two areas were once one? Ok. If you’re talking about the effects of the Trade Winds from Africa on that region? Ok. But the two drought/people are not anywhere near similar. As for the cattle and disease problems unless you wish to just split hairs on white man's guilt not relevant. Still you do the math; 1.2 mil people living on very eco fragile land that would realistically support 500K subsiding with assistance of a government seed and stipend program. The water used in the primitive drip irrigation the Catholic church is “translating” as some Organic salvation is coming from some of the 7000 dams usually filled to ~50% cap., most dry up in the many droughts they experience or some of the many wells drilled by the government. The underground damming? Yes, An old trick used in many lands for subsidence farming and basic survival of a small number of people. A basic desert survival technique I also taught . Try looking up the qanat for one such trick. Farml’s one statement about her Country’s Aborigines using such a trick is most likely true in their world of living off the land but again, relevant how? I think there is a better land/people distro as well as a different societal culture there. It is a given that area of Brazil will continue to experience more severe droughts as well as erratic dry seasons in their march to desertification. Oh another small detail, much of the water is trucked in the varying dry spells and droughts. So much for reducing the carbon footprint. As for the three sisters adaptation for ground cover? Temporary as best. Building the soil bank. Ok! Still how long will that last w/o water in that type sand, little to no clay there. I will assume you’re not very familiar with desert life and primitive cultures. As Farml also inferred you can get a lot of information off of the internet these days, just how much is true. I much prefer dot.edu rather than the many book writers living off of “we are the world”.coms that billy pretends is organo. As for your do you? Yes, I really do bird, geology/hydrology is in the family. My interest was in archaeology and anthropology but was talked out of it by a Prof before I went the military route. No regrets, all set up & retired @ 48, been enjoying life since. I've lived in in three countries and every state west of the Mississippi before I was 11 because of geology. Now days, 4 continents and 15-16 countries. My interest today in anthropology, particularly in the Amerindians and desert living stems from that. Hence my interest in hydroponics also. I really have a pretty good idea of how the hunter gatherer societies work (ed) than many and how the transition to farming takes place. This area is just delaying the inevitable. Man is but a dust speck on Nature's watch. But for you and billy et al? You boys ever actually been anywhere, done anything or seen anything besides the day trips on the Internet to give you actual life experiences? As for the inference from the Aussie that Americans are not well schooled in worldly affairs and her continuous inference that Americans are stupid SOBs??? Well I would hope she realizes billy is but one of 380 Mil and pretty much of a Walter Mitty. You ? Don't know but I assume you have not traveled from from your nest either . Perhaps Farml is very well traveled and properly papered, yet I seriously doubt her myopic view is based on much more than her internet travels she talks about. so Birds, I hope you also have good luck in your next time. Gunner |
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Organic Gardening in a Hotter, Drier World
Gunner wrote:
songbird wrote: Gunner wrote: Billy wrote: Tropic of Chaos: Climate Change and the New Geography of Violence by Christian Parenti (Jun 28, 2011) Gunner writes What a poorly written piece you present as evidence of organic best practices. Do you really know about the hydrology or even the geology of the area in this cherry picked book writers sociologist article? To which the Birds reply: oh well, better luck next time, Better luck, Bird? You got a C- on your test questions and a D for the essay defending stupid think. You generalize but you have no clue as to the specific regional area billy's book writer is talking about. Kinda like billy BSing about Mann and Biochar. um, i never admitted to reading the book did i? i can only base my replies upon what was quoted. Africa? Well if you’re talking about the fact the two areas were once one? Ok. If you’re talking about the effects of the Trade Winds from Africa on that region? Ok. But the two drought/people are not anywhere near similar. As for the cattle and disease problems unless you wish to just split hairs on white man's guilt not relevant. ? cattle, disease problems? white man's guilt? do you mean the fact that millions of natives were killed by diseases brought from the old world to the new world? i don't think there's much splitting of hairs to be done there. Still you do the math; 1.2 mil people living on very eco fragile land that would realistically support 500K subsiding with assistance of a government seed and stipend program. The water used in the primitive drip irrigation the Catholic church is “translating” as some Organic salvation is coming from some of the 7000 dams usually filled to ~50% cap., most dry up in the many droughts they experience or some of the many wells drilled by the government. i'm still not seeing a negative from encouraging a system which keeps the land covered with multiple crops instead of a monoculture. The underground damming? Yes, An old trick used in many lands for subsidence farming and basic survival of a small number of people. A basic desert survival technique I also taught . Try looking up the qanat for one such trick. Farml’s one statement about her Country’s Aborigines using such a trick is most likely true in their world of living off the land but again, relevant how? I think there is a better land/people distro as well as a different societal culture there. the natives are not farmers there, they are hunter-gatherers. It is a given that area of Brazil will continue to experience more severe droughts as well as erratic dry seasons in their march to desertification. desertification because of what? Oh another small detail, much of the water is trucked in the varying dry spells and droughts. So much for reducing the carbon footprint. i believe that the droughts would be much worse when the land is monocultured and left bare as compared to a system which keeps the land covered and shaded as much as possible from different plants. yes, any shipping of water would be a negative on the carbon footprint, but i don't think it would be better under any other method of farming either. overall population reduction to be more in line with the area's capacity to support them is closer to sustainable agricultural principles as far as i'm concerned. As for the three sisters adaptation for ground cover? Temporary as best. Building the soil bank. Ok! Still how long will that last w/o water in that type sand, little to no clay there. i'm not talking three sisters for ground cover i'm talking native plants that will grow if given and chance and protected from overgrazing. this is already a proven method in arid regions, but you do need the people to cooperate in keeping their animals from destroying the growth and you need the people to not hack it apart for firewood or fencing more than it can bear. if the region is stable enough (has some form of government strong enough to keep wars from breaking out and ruining longer term projects) then it can do a lot. from a simple thing like a line of rocks. I will assume you’re not very familiar with desert life and primitive cultures. ok, and you criticize me for jumping off from points unsubstatiated? heheh, ok... As Farml also inferred you can get a lot of information off of the internet these days, just how much is true. I much prefer dot.edu rather than the many book writers living off of “we are the world”.coms that billy pretends is organo. i don't mind questioning information and challenging it and talking about it to see what might make sense and what might not. what i do mind is calling people religious fanatics just because they do things differently. As for your do you? ? no idea what you mean. when i write my gardening stuff here i write what i am actually doing. if i have a failure i admit it and keep working at it. Yes, I really do bird, geology/hydrology is in the family. My interest was in archaeology and anthropology but was talked out of it by a Prof before I went the military route. No regrets, all set up & retired @ 48, been enjoying life since. I've lived in in three countries and every state west of the Mississippi before I was 11 because of geology. Now days, 4 continents and 15-16 countries. My interest today in anthropology, particularly in the Amerindians and desert living stems from that. Hence my interest in hydroponics also. I really have a pretty good idea of how the hunter gatherer societies work (ed) than many and how the transition to farming takes place. This area is just delaying the inevitable. Man is but a dust speck on Nature's watch. good deal, and i'm glad you've had a full and happy life in those many places and are now retired. i'm retired too at the same age you speak of. can't say i've lived in that many places, but i have lived in more than one region of the states and i've travelled most of the country with the car, tent and sleeping bag being my only home. i'm quite sure many others travel on vacation and see things, but i think my perspective was different from a tourist because as i travelled i was continually asking myself "is this a place i want to live?" But for you and billy et al? You boys ever actually been anywhere, done anything or seen anything besides the day trips on the Internet to give you actual life experiences? *shrug* i've spent a fair amount of time in Canada and vacationed in a handful of other countries. also i have a number of friends who did time in the service or were in the peace corps and spent a lot of time talking about what the saw/did. like you some of my college interest was anthropology, but also like you i went a different route to make a living and it was good, but that didn't mean i never read a decent book about another culture since then or never looked at a peer reviewed journal. As for the inference from the Aussie that Americans are not well schooled in worldly affairs and her continuous inference that Americans are stupid SOBs??? Well I would hope she realizes billy is but one of 380 Mil and pretty much of a Walter Mitty. You ? Don't know but I assume you have not traveled from from your nest either . seen all but a handful of the states (Rhode Island, Maine, Alaska, Nevada, Arizona, Louisiana, and Arkansas) and most of Canada that can be driven to other than the far North East coast. Perhaps Farml is very well traveled and properly papered, yet I seriously doubt her myopic view is based on much more than her internet travels she talks about. so Birds, I hope you also have good luck in your next time. "properly papered" makes me crack up. peace, songbird |
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Organic Gardening in a Hotter, Drier World
"songbird" wrote in message
... FarmI wrote: songbird wrote: ... all very interesting. in other arid climates with no severe drains/gullies you can line rocks across the ground and they will act as a water catch when it rains to slow down the water so that more soaks in. Standard practice in permaculture and other forms of land management but usually it's contour forming on farmland using a tractor/dozer and uses earth. They're called swales. ah, the usage i'm familiar with for those is a sometimes marshy ground, not a particularly made structure -- though i can see how the term would be adapted/adopted for them too. the made structures i would call dams. Absolutley not a dam. They are just earthwork contour gutters (for want of a better word to describe them). here i call places seeps are catches where i gather water from a harder rain. i wouldn't call them swales because they are not marshy. But swales don't have to be marshy and in fact I don't think I've ever seen one that could be called marshy. The function of swales is to slow down rain run off and let the water soak in and recharge the soil with moisture. Thus swales work well in both arid and dry temperate zones where the rainfall can come in fast and furious bursts (like from passing storms) but where the rain is not sustainedfor a long time. They probably also work in high rainfall areas to slow the flow of water across a clandscape but where they arent' necesarrily needed to give much needed soil moisture. |
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Organic Gardening in a Hotter, Drier World
In article ,
songbird wrote: Gunner wrote: songbird wrote: Gunner wrote: Billy wrote: Tropic of Chaos: Climate Change and the New Geography of Violence by Christian Parenti (Jun 28, 2011) Gunner writes What a poorly written piece you present as evidence of organic best practices. Do you really know about the hydrology or even the geology of the area in this cherry picked book writers sociologist article? To which the Birds reply: oh well, better luck next time, Better luck, Bird? You got a C- on your test questions and a D for the essay defending stupid think. You generalize but you have no clue as to the specific regional area billy's book writer is talking about. Kinda like billy BSing about Mann and Biochar. um, i never admitted to reading the book did i? i can only base my replies upon what was quoted. Africa? Well if you’re talking about the fact the two areas were once one? Ok. If you’re talking about the effects of the Trade Winds from Africa on that region? Ok. But the two drought/people are not anywhere near similar. As for the cattle and disease problems unless you wish to just split hairs on white man's guilt not relevant. ? cattle, disease problems? white man's guilt? do you mean the fact that millions of natives were killed by diseases brought from the old world to the new world? i don't think there's much splitting of hairs to be done there. Still you do the math; 1.2 mil people living on very eco fragile land that would realistically support 500K subsiding with assistance of a government seed and stipend program. The water used in the primitive drip irrigation the Catholic church is “translating” as some Organic salvation is coming from some of the 7000 dams usually filled to ~50% cap., most dry up in the many droughts they experience or some of the many wells drilled by the government. i'm still not seeing a negative from encouraging a system which keeps the land covered with multiple crops instead of a monoculture. The underground damming? Yes, An old trick used in many lands for subsidence farming and basic survival of a small number of people. A basic desert survival technique I also taught . Try looking up the qanat for one such trick. Farml’s one statement about her Country’s Aborigines using such a trick is most likely true in their world of living off the land but again, relevant how? I think there is a better land/people distro as well as a different societal culture there. the natives are not farmers there, they are hunter-gatherers. It is a given that area of Brazil will continue to experience more severe droughts as well as erratic dry seasons in their march to desertification. desertification because of what? Oh another small detail, much of the water is trucked in the varying dry spells and droughts. So much for reducing the carbon footprint. i believe that the droughts would be much worse when the land is monocultured and left bare as compared to a system which keeps the land covered and shaded as much as possible from different plants. yes, any shipping of water would be a negative on the carbon footprint, but i don't think it would be better under any other method of farming either. overall population reduction to be more in line with the area's capacity to support them is closer to sustainable agricultural principles as far as i'm concerned. As for the three sisters adaptation for ground cover? Temporary as best. Building the soil bank. Ok! Still how long will that last w/o water in that type sand, little to no clay there. i'm not talking three sisters for ground cover i'm talking native plants that will grow if given and chance and protected from overgrazing. this is already a proven method in arid regions, but you do need the people to cooperate in keeping their animals from destroying the growth and you need the people to not hack it apart for firewood or fencing more than it can bear. if the region is stable enough (has some form of government strong enough to keep wars from breaking out and ruining longer term projects) then it can do a lot. from a simple thing like a line of rocks. I will assume you’re not very familiar with desert life and primitive cultures. ok, and you criticize me for jumping off from points unsubstatiated? heheh, ok... As Farml also inferred you can get a lot of information off of the internet these days, just how much is true. I much prefer dot.edu rather than the many book writers living off of “we are the world”.coms that billy pretends is organo. i don't mind questioning information and challenging it and talking about it to see what might make sense and what might not. what i do mind is calling people religious fanatics just because they do things differently. As for your do you? ? no idea what you mean. when i write my gardening stuff here i write what i am actually doing. if i have a failure i admit it and keep working at it. Yes, I really do bird, geology/hydrology is in the family. My interest was in archaeology and anthropology but was talked out of it by a Prof before I went the military route. No regrets, all set up & retired @ 48, been enjoying life since. I've lived in in three countries and every state west of the Mississippi before I was 11 because of geology. Now days, 4 continents and 15-16 countries. My interest today in anthropology, particularly in the Amerindians and desert living stems from that. Hence my interest in hydroponics also. I really have a pretty good idea of how the hunter gatherer societies work (ed) than many and how the transition to farming takes place. This area is just delaying the inevitable. Man is but a dust speck on Nature's watch. good deal, and i'm glad you've had a full and happy life in those many places and are now retired. i'm retired too at the same age you speak of. can't say i've lived in that many places, but i have lived in more than one region of the states and i've travelled most of the country with the car, tent and sleeping bag being my only home. i'm quite sure many others travel on vacation and see things, but i think my perspective was different from a tourist because as i travelled i was continually asking myself "is this a place i want to live?" But for you and billy et al? You boys ever actually been anywhere, done anything or seen anything besides the day trips on the Internet to give you actual life experiences? *shrug* i've spent a fair amount of time in Canada and vacationed in a handful of other countries. also i have a number of friends who did time in the service or were in the peace corps and spent a lot of time talking about what the saw/did. like you some of my college interest was anthropology, but also like you i went a different route to make a living and it was good, but that didn't mean i never read a decent book about another culture since then or never looked at a peer reviewed journal. As for the inference from the Aussie that Americans are not well schooled in worldly affairs and her continuous inference that Americans are stupid SOBs??? Well I would hope she realizes billy is but one of 380 Mil and pretty much of a Walter Mitty. You ? Don't know but I assume you have not traveled from from your nest either . seen all but a handful of the states (Rhode Island, Maine, Alaska, Nevada, Arizona, Louisiana, and Arkansas) and most of Canada that can be driven to other than the far North East coast. Perhaps Farml is very well traveled and properly papered, yet I seriously doubt her myopic view is based on much more than her internet travels she talks about. so Birds, I hope you also have good luck in your next time. "properly papered" makes me crack up. peace, songbird As usual, gunny has lots of opinions, but no citations to back up his wacky assertions. Poor gunny tries to justify himself, but with so many book writers (sociologists, don't ya know) disagreeing with him, all he can do is to say that he is right and everybody else is wrong. What he needs to do is to submit countervailing opinions from his own persuasion, but sadly for gunny, there are few who agree with him. Why would that be??! Could it be (gasp) that gunny is wrong? Very likely. -- - Billy Both the House and Senate budget plan would have cut Social Security and Medicare, while cutting taxes on the wealthy. Kucinich noted that none of the government programs targeted for elimination or severe cutback in House Republican spending plans "appeared on the GAO's list of government programs at high risk of waste, fraud and abuse." http://www.politifact.com/ohio/state...is-kucinich/re p-dennis-kucinich-says-gop-budget-cuts-dont-targ/ [W]e have the situation with the deficit and the debt and spending and jobs. And it’s not that difficult to get out of it. The first thing you do is you get rid of corporate welfare. That’s hundreds of billions of dollars a year. The second is you tax corporations so that they don’t get away with no taxation. - Ralph Nader http://www.democracynow.org/2011/7/19/ralph_naders_solution_to_debt_crisis |
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Organic Gardening in a Hotter, Drier World
I leave the wacky to you, it seems to be your forte.
However, do show me anywhere that Parenti is a anything more than a writer, his bona fides read like he is a book writer. http://www.christianparenti.com/bio/ Perhaps you have some other information to contradict this that you wish to share? As for “citations”, here is a few to skim through since I know you don’t ever read much of what you cherry pick for your BS propaganda. If you still pretend you need some more I will be visiting the PLU Library here in a few weeks and will get you some of those as well. However you will need to get either academic or paid access to those. Do note these are not the dot coms fringe political editorial references you always posting , so again, be cautious in your cherry picking to support your propaganda without actually reading, like you did recently with Mann, etc. . That pattern shows a proclivity towards lying to support your political activism agenda. http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstr...ant_thesis.pdf http://spot.colorado.edu/~carpenh/Magkos.pdf http://www.ajcn.org/content/90/3/680.full.pdf http://water.columbia.edu/?id=Brazil&navid=Ceara http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1.../hysj.51.1.157 http://iahs.info/hsj/495/hysj_49_05_0901.pdf http://www.wamis.org/agm/meetings/emndp11/S4-Brazil.pdf https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/in...ticle/.../1935 https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/br.html Just for you billy boy, I will include a googly since you avoid any .edu “citations”: http://books.google.com/ebooks?id=zq4_AAAAYAAJ |
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Organic Gardening in a Hotter, Drier World
I really do not have the time today to wrestle the pig, but I promise
I will address your points if there really are any bird. The first time I read I did not see any but still. Meantime go read some of the references I gave billy below as well as Milpa & swidden Understand you are talking about monoculture. Don't know where native plants came in. Still subsidies are subsidies regardless of who they go to. Get the people a real job instead of giving them water, seed and money to continue to screwing up the fragile eco system of this arid regions. |
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