In article om,
Sheldon wrote:

Billy Six Toes mumbles:
Pennyaline wrote:
Omelet wrote:
Shel' dear. I always have put gravel in the bottom of pots to facilitate
good pot drainage. I was taught to do that by my Botany professor when I
used to work for him and take care of the class greenhouse. He also
always put a pot sherd over the hole or holes.

But, I use really big pots when I do that. 1 gallon on up to 25 gallon
depending on what I am planting. ;-)

But did you put in enough gravel or pot shards to hold the containers
down in a high wind? That is the OPs problem.

Actually, Omlet was responding to another of Shelly's ill conceived
constructions of reality, which by the way didn't address OP's problem
either.

To answer OP's question, you would need to know the size of the pot, and
its weight with soil and plant, and the height of the plant and how much
surface area opposed the wind, and most importantly an upper limit to
wind gusts. Obviously, Hurricane Dean would have blown the plant over,
if not away. Relatively speaking, lowering the center of gravity is
advantageous to the verticality of the pot.

Why don't you ask Shelly? He is full of . . . answers, of varying
quality. Maybe you'll get lucky.

The more you attempt to sound intelligent the more apparent how dumb
you are.

Placing pot shards and/or stones in a pot will add no more weight
than the soil it displaces, and will in time create air pockets as
the plant roots develop.

And if you weren't functionally illiterate you'd have comprehended the
concept of obtaining heavier/larger pots... and the warning to bring
all potential missles indoors during periods of high wind. Seems most
everyone else can comprehend the written word, but not the inbred
Hilly Billy

Will lowering the center of gravity make the pot more stable? Yes. Is
rock or sand, heavier than potting soil? Yes. Will rock or sand in the
bottom of a pot make the pot more stable? Yes. Did Shelly's response
address any of these points? No.

Additionally, Shelly is abusive and mean spirited. He must be having
trouble with his forest pansy again.
--
FB - FFF

Billy
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/

In article om,
Sheldon wrote:

Billy Six Toes mumbles:
Pennyaline wrote:
Omelet wrote:
Shel' dear. I always have put gravel in the bottom of pots to facilitate
good pot drainage. I was taught to do that by my Botany professor when I
used to work for him and take care of the class greenhouse. He also
always put a pot sherd over the hole or holes.

But, I use really big pots when I do that. 1 gallon on up to 25 gallon
depending on what I am planting. ;-)

But did you put in enough gravel or pot shards to hold the containers
down in a high wind? That is the OPs problem.

Actually, Omlet was responding to another of Shelly's ill conceived
constructions of reality, which by the way didn't address OP's problem
either.

To answer OP's question, you would need to know the size of the pot, and
its weight with soil and plant, and the height of the plant and how much
surface area opposed the wind, and most importantly an upper limit to
wind gusts. Obviously, Hurricane Dean would have blown the plant over,
if not away. Relatively speaking, lowering the center of gravity is
advantageous to the verticality of the pot.

Why don't you ask Shelly? He is full of . . . answers, of varying
quality. Maybe you'll get lucky.

The more you attempt to sound intelligent the more apparent how dumb
you are.

Placing pot shards and/or stones in a pot will add no more weight
than the soil it displaces, and will in time create air pockets as
the plant roots develop.

And if you weren't functionally illiterate you'd have comprehended the
concept of obtaining heavier/larger pots... and the warning to bring
all potential missles indoors during periods of high wind. Seems most
everyone else can comprehend the written word, but not the inbred
Hilly Billy

Larger heavier pots certainly would help but since JS is growing "trees"
in the pots, I'll take a wild guess that they are larger than a gallon
in size. So, I presume, we already have large heavy pots. A larger
heavier pot with a higher center of gravity would worsen the situation.
Another approach would be to widen the base but that may depend on the
material that the pot is made of but a drain hole at the bottom "might"
be a place where a nut and bolt and a couple of washers, could be used
to attach to a horizontal frame under the plant, thereby spreading it's
base. It would also be helpful to reduce the height of the trees to
reduce the leverage the wind can generate on your trees. Pruning the
leaves would reduce the pressure the wind can apply to your trees. It is
up to you to decide the esthetic - stability balance that works for you.

--
Billy
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/

In article ,
Billy wrote:

Larger heavier pots certainly would help but since JS is growing "trees"
in the pots, I'll take a wild guess that they are larger than a gallon
in size. So, I presume, we already have large heavy pots. A larger
heavier pot with a higher center of gravity would worsen the situation.
Another approach would be to widen the base but that may depend on the
material that the pot is made of but a drain hole at the bottom "might"
be a place where a nut and bolt and a couple of washers, could be used
to attach to a horizontal frame under the plant, thereby spreading it's
base. It would also be helpful to reduce the height of the trees to
reduce the leverage the wind can generate on your trees. Pruning the
leaves would reduce the pressure the wind can apply to your trees. It is
up to you to decide the esthetic - stability balance that works for you.

--
Bil

Y'know, bolting the pot to some boards to widen the base is something
I'd not thought of.

Excellent idea!

If you put wheels on those boards, it would make them easier to move too.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

In article ,
"JS" wrote:

Bill,

If you don't mind, can we stick with my original question,
whether it is OK or not to put some landscape rocks
on the surface of a pot to make it heavier? It is just a
simple YES or NO answer !!

JIMMY
Well, actually, the original question that you wanted answered was would
the rocks hurt your trees. If used as Omlet suggested, the answer is no.

"I always have put gravel in the bottom of pots to facilitate
good pot drainage. I was taught to do that by my Botany professor when I
used to work for him and take care of the class greenhouse. He also
always put a pot shard over the hole or holes." - Omlet

Sometimes these post take on the aspect of the whispering game where a
sentence is whispered around a circle and by the time it returns to the
original whisperer, it has changed significantly. Something happens with
news browsers. The old are deleted to avoid clutter, and sometimes the
original question gets swept-out as well. Sorry it took so much time to
give a clear response but at least it is thoroughly vetted.

Good luck with the tress.

"JS" wrote:

I would like to ask the experts in the forum.
I live in Dallas, TX area where strong wind
and/or thunder storm is very common.
In order to keep my backyard tree pots
from being blown away by the strong wind,
I put rocks (draining type) to make the pots
heavier, that way they can withstand the
strong wind.
Is this OK? am I not going to cause any harm
to the trees (mainly Plumeria and some fruit trees)

Thanks in advance,


JIMMY

No expert here, but ever consider of staking a pot.
Drive a stake and get heavy duty electrical ties and put one or two
about. I'd also look at micro climate possible fixes like a low wall.

Bill who brings his plants onto his porch when it really blows.

--

S Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade

This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with
Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational
and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit.

http://www.ocutech.com/ High tech Vison aid


Ever hear of a star drill ?

Bill

--

S Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade

This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with
Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational
and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit.

http://www.ocutech.com/ High tech Vison aid


--
Billy
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/

On Aug 15, 10:04 pm, Omelet wrote:

Shel' dear. I always have put gravel in the bottom of pots to facilitate
goodpotdrainage. I was taught to do that by my Botany professor when I
used to work for him and take care of the class greenhouse. He also
always put apotsherd over the hole or holes.

Gravel doesn't improve drainage. Drilling holes in the
pot does that. Gravel does help aerate the soil, getting
more oxygen to roots and beneficial bugs.

In article . com,
Father Haskell wrote:

On Aug 15, 10:04 pm, Omelet wrote:

Shel' dear. I always have put gravel in the bottom of pots to facilitate
goodpotdrainage. I was taught to do that by my Botany professor when I
used to work for him and take care of the class greenhouse. He also
always put apotsherd over the hole or holes.

Gravel doesn't improve drainage.

I respectfully disagree.
Did some googling and found LOTS of references.
Here is just one:

http://garden.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Bulbs_in_Containers

"Drainage

Good drainage is essential! Make sure the pot has plenty of drainage
holes in its bottom. Enlarge the holes or drill more if necessary.

Place a layer of drainage material at the bottom of the container.
Old-fashioned gardeners called this "crocking" because they used pieces
of broken pots or crocks for this layer. If you'll be moving the
container, you may choose to use packaging peanuts, which do not
disintegrate but are much lighter in weight. "

I have also used packing peanuts to cut weight in really large pots.
Just don't use the biodegradable ones. G


Drilling holes in the
pot does that.

It helps, but graveling the bottom of a large pot also is beneficial.

Gravel does help aerate the soil, getting
more oxygen to roots and beneficial bugs.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Pennyaline wrote:

Omelet wrote:
Shel' dear. I always have put gravel in the bottom of pots to facilitate
good pot drainage. I was taught to do that by my Botany professor when I
used to work for him and take care of the class greenhouse. He also
always put a pot sherd over the hole or holes.

But, I use really big pots when I do that. 1 gallon on up to 25 gallon
depending on what I am planting. ;-)
But did you put in enough gravel or pot shards to hold the containers
down in a high wind? That is the OPs problem.

Actually, Omlet was responding to another of Shelly's ill conceived
constructions of reality, which by the way didn't address OP's problem
either.

I stated that keeping the containers in place during high winds is the
OP's problem. Neither Omelet nor I was trying to solve the OP's problem
through Omelet's response. She was responding to Sheldon, and I was
responding to her. No more, no less.

Billy wrote:
In article ,
"JS" wrote:

Bill,

If you don't mind, can we stick with my original question,
whether it is OK or not to put some landscape rocks
on the surface of a pot to make it heavier? It is just a
simple YES or NO answer !!

JIMMY
Well, actually, the original question that you wanted answered was would
the rocks hurt your trees. If used as Omlet suggested, the answer is no.

It is a crying shame that the OP became so incensed, as each response
was in one way or another made in an attempt to solve his problem albeit
not with pat Yes or No answers. I have actually tied large container
plants to fixed trellises or posts and kept them upright in high winds.
I haven't had the opportunity to stake down patio containers as I'm able
to move mine behind windward walls, but it's a damn good idea! Too bad
he didn't want to hear about things like that.

In article ,
Pennyaline wrote:

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Pennyaline wrote:

Omelet wrote:
Shel' dear. I always have put gravel in the bottom of pots to facilitate
good pot drainage. I was taught to do that by my Botany professor when I
used to work for him and take care of the class greenhouse. He also
always put a pot sherd over the hole or holes.

But, I use really big pots when I do that. 1 gallon on up to 25 gallon
depending on what I am planting. ;-)
But did you put in enough gravel or pot shards to hold the containers
down in a high wind? That is the OPs problem.

Actually, Omlet was responding to another of Shelly's ill conceived
constructions of reality, which by the way didn't address OP's problem
either.

I stated that keeping the containers in place during high winds is the
OP's problem. Neither Omelet nor I was trying to solve the OP's problem
through Omelet's response. She was responding to Sheldon, and I was
responding to her. No more, no less.

Well, I've not routinely had pots blow over in a high wind, but I put
them in a protected spot. Close to a building on the lee side of where
the wind is coming from.

Or I tie them to something if it becomes a regular problem.

The larger pots (5 gallon or larger) with a gravel lining never do blow
over, but that was not why I put the gravel in there. It's just a side
benefit. ;-)

I think my original point was that if they want to try weighting the
pots with gravel to prevent blow-overs, put the gravel in the _bottom_
of the pot instead of on top of the soil.

That way you avoid soil compaction, make the center of gravity lower in
the pot which should work better, and benefit pot drainage.

A win-win situation.

But if you are dealing with really high winds, say, 30 mph on up,
setting up some sort of tie ups for top heavy or top bushed plant pots
might be your only hope.

Or, as someone else suggested, bolting them to boards to widen the base.
I thought that was a very cool idea.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

In article ,
Pennyaline wrote:

Billy wrote:
In article ,
"JS" wrote:

Bill,

If you don't mind, can we stick with my original question,
whether it is OK or not to put some landscape rocks
on the surface of a pot to make it heavier? It is just a
simple YES or NO answer !!

JIMMY
Well, actually, the original question that you wanted answered was would
the rocks hurt your trees. If used as Omlet suggested, the answer is no.

It is a crying shame that the OP became so incensed, as each response
was in one way or another made in an attempt to solve his problem albeit
not with pat Yes or No answers. I have actually tied large container
plants to fixed trellises or posts and kept them upright in high winds.
I haven't had the opportunity to stake down patio containers as I'm able
to move mine behind windward walls, but it's a damn good idea! Too bad
he didn't want to hear about things like that.

In that case, can putting rocks on top of the soil hurt his trees, the
answer is YES.

It can cause soil compaction which causes a host of problems.

Consider other suggested alternatives.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

[apologies for the length, but if the subject interests you, it's a worthy
read]

[flup set to a.h.l.g.]

Omelet said:

In article . com,
Father Haskell wrote:

On Aug 15, 10:04 pm, Omelet wrote:

Shel' dear. I always have put gravel in the bottom of pots to facilitate
goodpotdrainage. I was taught to do that by my Botany professor when I
used to work for him and take care of the class greenhouse. He also
always put apotsherd over the hole or holes.

Gravel doesn't improve drainage.

I respectfully disagree.

And, you'd be wrong. This subject has come up on a lot of forums, over the
years. It's a myth, and can be proved with simple experiments. An
acquaintance explained it best (long, copied/pasted from a davesgarden
forum on container gardening):


Water Movement in Soils

Consider this if you will:

Soil need fill only a few needs in plant culture. Anchorage - A place for
roots to extend, securing the plant and preventing it from toppling.
Nutrient Sink - It must retain sufficient nutrients to sustain plant
systems. Gas Exchange - It must be sufficiently porous to allow air to the
root system. And finally, Water - It must retain water enough in liquid
and/or vapor form to sustain plants between waterings. Most plants could be
grown without soil as long as we can provide air, nutrients, and water,
(witness hydroponics). Here, I will concentrate primarily on the movement
of water in soil(s).

There are two forces that cause water movement through soil - one is
gravity, the other capillary action. Gravity needs little explanation, but
for this writing I would like to note: Gravitational flow potential (GFP)
is greater for water at the top of the pot than it is for water at the
bottom of the pot. I'll return to that later. Capillarity is a function of
the natural forces of adhesion and cohesion. Adhesion is water's tendency
to stick to solid objects like soil particles and the sides of the pot.
Cohesion is the tendency for water to stick to itself. Cohesion is why we
often find water in droplet form - because cohesion is at times stronger
than adhesion, water¢s bond to itself can be stronger than the bond to the
object it might be in contact with; in this condition it forms a drop.
Capillary action is in evidence when we dip a paper towel in water. The
water will soak into the towel and rise several inches above the surface of
the water. It will not drain back into the source. It will stop rising when
the GFP equals the capillary attraction of the fibers in the paper.

There is, in every pot, what is called a "perched water table" (PWT). This
is water that occupies a layer of soil that is always saturated & will not
drain at the bottom of the pot. It can evaporate or be used by the plant,
but physical forces will not allow it to drain. It is there because the
capillary pull of the soil at some point will equal the GFP; therefore, the
water does not drain, it is "perched". If we fill five cylinders of varying
heights and diameters with the same soil mix and provide each cylinder with
a drainage hole, the PWT will be exactly the same height in each container.
This is the area of the pot where roots seldom penetrate & where root
problems begin due to a lack of aeration. From this we can draw the
conclusion that: Tall growing containers are a superior choice over squat
containers when using the same soil mix. The reason: The level of the PWT
will be the same in each container, with the taller container providing
more usable, air holding soil above the PWT. Physiology dictates that
plants must be able to take in air at the roots in order to complete
transpiration and photosynthesis.

A given volume of large soil particles have less overall surface area in
comparison to the same volume of small particles and therefore less overall
adhesive attraction to water. So, in soils with large particles, GFP more
readily overcomes capillary attraction. They drain better. We all know
this, but the reason, often unclear, is that the PWT is lower in coarse
soils than in fine soils. The key to good drainage is size and uniformity
of soil particles. Large particles mixed with small particles will not
improve drainage because the smaller particles fit between the large,
increasing surface area which increases the capillary attraction and thus
the water holding potential. Water and air cannot occupy the same space at
the same time. Contrary to what some hold to be true, sand does not improve
drainage. Pumice (aka lava rock), or one of the hi-fired clay products like
Turface are good additives which help promote drainage and porosity because
of their irregular shape.

Now to the main point: When we use a coarse drainage layer under our soil,
it does not improve drainage. It does conserve on the volume of soil
required to fill a pot and it makes the pot lighter. When we employ this
exercise in an attempt to improve drainage, what we are actually doing is
moving the level of the PWT higher in the pot. This reduces available soil
for roots to colonize, reduces total usable pot space, and limits potential
for beneficial gas exchange. Containers with uniform soil particle size
from top of container to bottom will yield better drainage and have a lower
PWT than containers with drainage layers. The coarser the drainage layer,
the more detrimental to drainage it is because water is more (for lack of a
better scientific word) reluctant to make the downward transition because
the capillary pull of the soil above the drainage layer is stronger than
the GFP. The reason for this is there is far more surface area in the soil
for water to be attracted to than there is in the drainage layer.

I know this goes against what most have thought to be true, but the
principle is scientifically sound, and experiments have shown it as so.
Many nurserymen are now employing the pot-in-pot or the pot-in-trench
method of growing to capitalize on the science.

If you discover you need to increase drainage, insert a wick into the pot &
allow it to extend from the PWT to several inches below the bottom of the
pot. This will successfully eliminate the PWT & give your plants much more
soil to grow in as well as allow more, much needed air to the roots.

Uniform size particles of fir, hemlock or pine bark are excellent as the
primary component of your soils. The lignin contained in bark keeps it
rigid and the rigidity provides air-holding pockets in the root zone far
longer than peat or compost mixes that rapidly break down to a soup-like
consistency. Bark also contains suberin, a lipid sometimes referred to as
nature¢s preservative. Suberin is what slows the decomposition of
bark-based soils. It contains highly varied hydrocarbon chains and the
microorganisms that turn peat to soup have great difficulty cleaving these
chains.

In simple terms: Plants that expire because of drainage problems either die
of thirst because the roots have rotted and can no longer take up water, or
they starve to death because they cannot obtain sufficient air at the root
zone for the respiratory or photosynthetic processes.

To confirm the existence of the PWT and the effectiveness of using a wick
to remove it, try this experiment: Fill a soft drink cup nearly full of
garden soil. Add enough water to fill to the top, being sure all soil is
saturated. Punch a drain hole in the bottom of the cup & allow to drain.
When the drainage stops, insert a wick several inches up into the drain
hole . Take note of how much additional water drains. This is water that
occupied the PWT before being drained by the wick. A greatly simplified
explanation of what occurs is: The wick "fools" the water into thinking the
pot is deeper, so water begins to move downward seeking the "new" bottom of
the pot, pulling the rest of the PWT along with it.

Having applied these principles in the culture of my containerized plants,
both indoors and out, for many years, the methodology I have adopted has
shown to be effective and of great benefit to them. I use many amendments
when building my soils, but the basic building process starts with screened
bark and perlite. Peat usually plays a very minor role in my container
soils because it breaks down rapidly and when it does, it impedes drainage.

My Soil

I'll give two recipes. I usually make big batches.

3 parts pine bark fines
1 part sphagnum peat (not reed or sedge peat)
1-2 parts perlite
garden lime
controlled release fertilizer
micro-nutrient powder (substitute: small amount of good, composted manure

Big batch:

3 cu ft pine bark fines (1 big bag)
5 gallons peat
5 gallons perlite
1 cup lime (you can add more to small portion if needed)
2 cups CRF
1/2 cup micro-nutrient powder or 1 gal composted manure

Small batch:

3 gallons pine bark
1/2 gallon peat
1/2 gallon perlite
handful lime (careful)
1/4 cup CRF
1 tsp micro-nutrient powder or a dash of manure ;o)

I have seen advice that some highly organic soils are productive for up to
5 years. I disagree. Even if you were to substitute fir bark for pine bark
in this recipe (and this recipe will far outlast any peat based soil) you
should only expect a maximum of three years life before a repot is in
order. Usually perennials, including trees (they're perennials too, you
know ;o)) should be repotted more frequently to insure vigor closer to
genetic potential. If a soil is desired that will retain structure for long
periods, we need to look to inorganic components. Some examples are crushed
granite, pea stone, coarse sand (no smaller than BB size in containers,
please), Haydite, lava rock, Turface or Schultz soil conditioner.


--
Eggs

-If you must choose between two evils, pick the one you've never tried
before.

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 18:03:43 -0600, Eggs Zachtly wrote:

[apologies for the length, but if the subject interests you, it's a worthy
read]

[flup set to a.h.l.g.]

Omelet said:

In article . com,
Father Haskell wrote:

On Aug 15, 10:04 pm, Omelet wrote:

Shel' dear. I always have put gravel in the bottom of pots to facilitate
goodpotdrainage. I was taught to do that by my Botany professor when I
used to work for him and take care of the class greenhouse. He also
always put apotsherd over the hole or holes.

Gravel doesn't improve drainage.

I respectfully disagree.

And, you'd be wrong.

No. In a large pot with just one hole on the bottom, a good layer of
gravel covered with landscape cloth, then potting mix on top. You can
water too much and the pot can sit in a puddle without worrying about root
rot.

sf

On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 02:55:59 -0500, Omelet wrote:

Y'know, bolting the pot to some boards to widen the base is something
I'd not thought of.

Excellent idea!

If you put wheels on those boards, it would make them easier to move too.

When you come home you may find all your plants on the downwind side of
the patio, upright.

sf

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 13:49:28 -0700, randygress wrote:

If you are having trouble visualizing what I have in mind just think
of a regular flowerpot with the bottom cut off and then turned over.
The pot with the tree would then fit into the other pot.

How about just making the pot with the base wider than the top?

jellybean stonerfish said:

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 18:03:43 -0600, Eggs Zachtly wrote:

[apologies for the length, but if the subject interests you, it's a worthy
read]

[flup set to a.h.l.g.]

Omelet said:

In article . com,
Father Haskell wrote:

On Aug 15, 10:04 pm, Omelet wrote:

Shel' dear. I always have put gravel in the bottom of pots to facilitate
goodpotdrainage. I was taught to do that by my Botany professor when I
used to work for him and take care of the class greenhouse. He also
always put apotsherd over the hole or holes.

Gravel doesn't improve drainage.

I respectfully disagree.

And, you'd be wrong.

No. In a large pot with just one hole on the bottom, a good layer of
gravel covered with landscape cloth, then potting mix on top. You can
water too much and the pot can sit in a puddle without worrying about root
rot.


You don't understand perched water tables, do you?

--

Eggs

My weight is perfect for my height.... which varies.