Social Security recipients pain in to that system. It's not free.

I know - I pay into the system. And they take my money and give it someone
else. If the system still exists when I retire, they will take someone
else's money and give it to me. It's called a pyramid, and since the
government runs it, it's legal. It has very little difference from any other
Ponzy scheme. I don't like it and I would be much happier if I could that
the money and invest/save it in whatever ways I think best.

So
you must be writhing with the over 800 BILLION just given to the
financial sector because the deregulation of our current
administration opened the door to this near financial depression.

1) I'm not writhing, but I think it was over the top. I think they should
allow a certain level of crash and burn.

2) It has not been established that deregulation caused this. You don't
shoot the doctor because the patient dies, and you don't scrap an
unregulated market because it hiccups. This so-called "crisis" will pass,
and the markets will stabalize again.

You
must also be ****ed off at the ten billion dollars a month for an
illegal war.

It has not been established that the war is illegal. I am not ****ed about
it, but I do believe we should have abandoned the Iraqis a long time ago.

So you must think we're better off after the Bush crime
masters took hold of your money.

I'm not sure what this statement means, so I'm not sure how to respond.

And what roads do you propose we
drive around on; dirt paths?

Again - your question makes no sense.

I think you need to stop repeating the
blather you hear on Rush and Hannity.

I don't listen to Rush and Hannity.


Socialistic states? Where are those? Hmmm, I dare say the only
industrialized nation which doesn't have socialized medicine is the
United States. I recently had knee replacement surgery. It cost
43,000 dollars. Don't you think the medical community is a little out
of control?

Yes, I think the medical community is more then a little out of control. But
socializing it is not the answer - it is like using hand grenades to hunt
rabbits. It's a severe, over the top reaction that won't solve the problem
and will likely create more. Neither McCain nor Obama have a solution that
will fix this problem. I'm not sure I do either.

I suppose you could go to Canada, wait five years for your "free" surgery,
and hope the doctor that does it doesn't botch it. You get what you pay
for...I'd rather pay 43.000 dollars for a knee replacement done in the USA
then get it done at the tax payers expense somewhere else.


There is something that many people just can't quite seem to grasp. Who
employs most of the middle class? Bingo! The wealthy! What happens when
you
raise taxes on the wealthy? I leave the answer to this question as an
exercise in economics 101.

This is more blather you are repeating which Limbaugh and Hannity lie
about.

I made this up on my own, though you are welcome to consider it blather if
you wish :-)

I repeat - Economics 101. Anyone that thinks you can increases taxes on the
rich and that it won't come out of the pockets of the middle and lower class
is woefully ignorant about how businesses work.

Hmm...funny. I remember The big oil boys want you to think this. Obama
proposes to
built 5 million jobs in the alternative energy sector, alone. All the
R&D engineers, the manufacture of solar, wind and geo thermal energy
discovery and placement will all take many, many people to build.

And where is Obama going to get the money to do this? I'm not saying that
these are bad things - I would love to see this happen, but Democrats think
the solution to funding things like this is to simply increase taxes. I
don't think they realize how limited a resource that is.

What do we build here in the United States? Some plastic shit into
molds? What? Can you name ten things made in the USA? As far as I
can see, we build fake money and buy more fake money with it. We are
in financial ruin owing trillions of dollars to China...where
EVERYTHING is made; including dog food and it's all de-regulated.

I can name ten things made in USA, but I don't disagree with what you are
saying except unlike you I don't believe the deregulation caused the mess,
and I don't believe regulation will fix it.


Take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth and learn a
thing or two.
I actually heard someone on Laura Ingrams radio show last week. He
called it trickle UP poverty! What the **** is that supposed to mean?

Stop being a parrot, repeating everything you hear from the grow ups.

Grow up and loose the insults. If you can't say something nice, keep your
mouth shut.

Polly want a cracker...?
Victoria


OK, I'll bite. Where did I say something that is insulting? Where did I say
something that isn't nice? You like to insult people like a child that isn't
getting their way. Does it make you feel better? Does it make you feel
superior? Does your usage of profanity make you think you are making a
stronger point? Grow up, little girl, and learn how to converse like an
adult. Stop acting like a foul mouthed child, and learn how mature
reasonable people converse.

"Jangchub" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 18:20:35 -0700, "Zoot" wrote:

I agree that it is peculiar. I think a certain amount of crash and burn
should be allowed to happen. If a company can't meet its payroll without
borrowing money, payday after payday, they deserve to go belly up. If a
city
can't run their busses without borrowing money, they should shut them
down.
The current financial "crisis" in the USA will pass, and as a result the
weaker businesses will be gone. You don't shoot the Doctor because you
loose
a patient. And you don't scrap capitalism because it hiccups. I say keep
the
government out of it. It will recover, the stock market will recover, and
America will be stronger because of it.

I've always been an advocate for government taking on the role of an
educator, not an enforcer. Educated people tend to make better decisions.
A
lot of people took out a mortgage that was a really stupid idea, and
didn't
know better. I have a close relative in bankruptcy right now because he
bought a house on an interest only loan, and now he couldn't afford the
payments. Duh! A little education about home loans and mortgages could
have
prevented a lot of this.


At least your contradiction is consistent. Duh, deregulation is the
cause of this downturn. You put crisis in quotes. Does that mean
there is no crisis?

Can you substantiate the claim the deregulation caused the current downturn?
I know many people think so, but it's not the case unless you can establish
that regulation would have prevented it. There is the key - if you can't
prove that regulation would have prevented this, you can't blame it on
deregulation. I'm not sure that anyone can prove this - for one, we don't
really know. We could make hypothetical cases, we can discuss how if we
regulated this or that, then this or that might not have happened. We would
have to isolate the top causes of the current financial downturn, analyze
them, and then come up with some form of regulation that would actually work
to prevent it. Not pie-in-the-sky politician promise level regulation - real
regulation, regulation what actually works. It is easy to say "Regulation
the economy!". But details, give me details! How are you going to implement
this? Exactly what are you going to regulate, and how?

I suppose that from an extremist point of view, deregulation caused this.
But that is only if you think that extreme levels of regulation are
necessary to prevent things like this from happening. Most people don't want
that level of regulation.

In another week we will find out if American voters want extreme levels of
regulation or not. Our country is at a fork in the road, and the pathways
the different presidential candidates will take us down are very different
paths. It has not been established where these pathways will take us - both
have their ideals, but I don't think anyone really knows what will happen
next, regardless of who we elect president.

My conclusion, you are a know nothing.

My conclusion is that you like to insult people. I'm guessing it makes you
feel superior. I've already commented on your lack of maturity, so I don't
think I'll say any more.

"Zoot" wrote in
:


Vote for Obama is cutting off your nose to spite your
face.

You want four more years of a Republican administration?
Man, you're a glutton for punishment.
snip

Yes. Because what Obama would do to this country scares me
to death. Regardless of what Bush has done, Obama will do
worse. Can you say "Socialism"?

a better question would be, can *you* define "Socialism"?
because i bet it isn't what you think.

lee not liberal, but not stupid either
--
Last night while sitting in my chair
I pinged a host that wasn't there
It wasn't there again today
The host resolved to NSA.

wrote in message
...
My garden is limited by being really very small. I just "did" a 12" x 48"
bed next
to our "sidewalk" and filled it with bulbs. In summer I will overplant
with arabis
that looks great over bulbs.
http://weloveteaching.com/landscape/10-25-2008.jpg
not much to see yet. I gotta find the mulch for it.

weekends are set to putting the gardens and fish "to bed". gotta drag my
figs into
the heated garage before the first freeze maybe tomorrow.

getting ready for Halloween today handing out organic suckers to kids
(tasty!) and
sugar free candy.

the elections have me so nervous I am eating carbs... desserts just to
calm my nerves
and ease the knot in my stomach. I have gone back to listening to
Olbermann and now
added Maddow and compulsively reading serveral newspapers and blogs. I
dont think I
could stand it if Obama didnt win. I had a hard time accepting Hilary
didnt get the
nomination. Happily all our money is in the 3 homes we own. One was
inherited and we
bought the other 2 low and arent selling. Housing prices where we live are
moderate
but stable. Our jobs are secure and even our renters have secure jobs.
Even tho
the urge to stop buying anything is strong I feel somebody in this economy
needs to
continue spending some money. So we go out to eat once a week as usual.
I buy
second hand on eBay. I am even going to adopt another dog that needs a
home from a
pound. Lots of people are turning them in when they lose their homes. We
will see
how it goes, if we can give our neighbor work (carpenter). Try to spread
whatever
extra we have around to hire people who have worked on our houses in the
past.

Ingrid

Shop Goodwill Stores. Keep the challenged working and save money. First
Saturday of the month everything is 50% off.


On Fri, 24 Oct 2008 13:36:07 -0700 (PDT), Artful Dodger
wrote:
Hardly anybody posting. Is it the change in seasons? The advent of
(sob) the early dark? Or -- the elections?
I am so tense, I feel it affecting me not only psychologically, but
perhaps even physically.

a better question would be, can *you* define "Socialism"?
because i bet it isn't what you think.

lee not liberal, but not stupid either
--


Socialism is a wide range of governmental and economic policies and theories
that aim to implement various levels of control of the economy and the
assets of a country by the government. It usually involves the government
siezing the assets of private citizens (aka taxes, at least that is all our
government is doing right now) and either redistributing it or retaining it.
The government will frequently administer a wide range of social programs,
and exercise control of the economy to varying degrees. The US does this to
some extent today. Under Obama, the level of this control will escalate
dramatically. How far down this road will Obama take us? The US government
already authorized the usage of billions of dollars to purchase financial
assest - socialism in action, and we didn't even have to elect Obama to do
this LOL.

"Zoot" wrote in message
I agree that it is peculiar. I think a certain amount of crash and burn
should be allowed to happen. If a company can't meet its payroll without
borrowing money, payday after payday, they deserve to go belly up. If a
city can't run their busses without borrowing money, they should shut them
down. The current financial "crisis" in the USA will pass, and as a result
the weaker businesses will be gone. You don't shoot the Doctor because you
loose a patient. And you don't scrap capitalism because it hiccups. I say
keep the government out of it. It will recover, the stock market will
recover, and America will be stronger because of it.

The US is not the only place experiencing a financial crisis - it's spread
worlwide and I strongly suspect the worst of it hasn't hit yet.
Additionally it isn't only the financial crisis that has stuffed the US -
the cost of going to war in Iraq has yet to hit home too. I think the US is
is a far worse situation than most people have yet realised.

I've always been an advocate for government taking on the role of an
educator, not an enforcer. Educated people tend to make better decisions.
A lot of people took out a mortgage that was a really stupid idea, and
didn't know better. I have a close relative in bankruptcy right now
because he bought a house on an interest only loan, and now he couldn't
afford the payments. Duh! A little education about home loans and
mortgages could have prevented a lot of this.

The US certainly has huge educational needs. Last night we were watching
interviews of people in (Iowa I think - at least were McCain has been in the
last coupe of days) and we were both mortified at the comments these poeple
made. They were unbelievably naive and ignorant when it came to politics -
and we'd always thought the US was reasonably good about teaching it's kids
civics. These people all sounded like they'd come out of a brain washing
factory - very scary.

"Jangchub" wrote in message
Hmmm, I dare say the only
industrialized nation which doesn't have socialized medicine is the
United States. I recently had knee replacement surgery. It cost
43,000 dollars. Don't you think the medical community is a little out
of control?

We went to Vietnam in May of this year and as you'd know, it's a Communist
country. There is no free anything. You pay to send your kids to school or
to get any form of medical help and if you don't work, you starve.

Since that's supposed to be 'Communism', I'd like to know what that makes
the US.

All this blather about socialism and communism is totally meaningless. All
sides of politics in most western countries are middle of the road
moderates.

"Zoot" wrote in message

I suppose you could go to Canada, wait five years for your "free" surgery,
and hope the doctor that does it doesn't botch it. You get what you pay
for...I'd rather pay 43.000 dollars for a knee replacement done in the USA
then get it done at the tax payers expense somewhere else.

Ouch! I wonder if you realise how xenophobic that comment sounds?

"Zoot" wrote in message

Socialism is a wide range of governmental and economic policies and
theories that aim to implement various levels of control of the economy
and the assets of a country by the government.

Surely you don't think that "Capitalist" governments don't do this????? If
they didn't they wouldn't be a government.

It usually involves the government
siezing the assets of private citizens (aka taxes, at least that is all
our government is doing right now) and either redistributing it or
retaining it.

Surely you don't think that "Capitalist" governments don't do this????? If
they didn't they wouldn't be a government.

The government will frequently administer a wide range of social programs,
and exercise control of the economy to varying degrees.

Surely you don't think that "Capitalist" governments don't do this????? If
they didn't they wouldn't be a government.

The US does this to
some extent today. Under Obama, the level of this control will escalate
dramatically. How far down this road will Obama take us? The US government
already authorized the usage of billions of dollars to purchase financial
assest - socialism in action, and we didn't even have to elect Obama to do
this LOL.

"Purchase financial assets?" What assets are you thinking of?

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...
"Zoot" wrote in message

I suppose you could go to Canada, wait five years for your "free"
surgery, and hope the doctor that does it doesn't botch it. You get what
you pay for...I'd rather pay 43.000 dollars for a knee replacement done
in the USA then get it done at the tax payers expense somewhere else.

Ouch! I wonder if you realise how xenophobic that comment sounds?


The level of xenophobia equals my level of exaggeration

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...
"Zoot" wrote in message

Socialism is a wide range of governmental and economic policies and
theories that aim to implement various levels of control of the economy
and the assets of a country by the government.

Surely you don't think that "Capitalist" governments don't do this?????
If they didn't they wouldn't be a government.

It usually involves the government
siezing the assets of private citizens (aka taxes, at least that is all
our government is doing right now) and either redistributing it or
retaining it.

Surely you don't think that "Capitalist" governments don't do this?????
If they didn't they wouldn't be a government.

The government will frequently administer a wide range of social
programs, and exercise control of the economy to varying degrees.

Surely you don't think that "Capitalist" governments don't do this?????
If they didn't they wouldn't be a government.


1) Of course they do.
2) Of course they do. My comment states that the US does exactly that.
3) Of course they do.

BUT! Just because governments do these things does not automatically make
that government a socialistic government. It is how much they do these
things that earns them the title of Socialistic or not. There is a line
drawn, past which you would consider the government to be a socialist
government. On the other side, you don't consider them to be so. Where is
that line drawn right now? Where will that line move to if McCain is
president? If Obama is president?

On 10/28/08 9:17 AM, in article ,
"Jangchub" wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:09:25 -0700, "Zoot" wrote:

...

BUT! Just because governments do these things does not automatically make
that government a socialistic government. It is how much they do these
things that earns them the title of Socialistic or not. There is a line
drawn, past which you would consider the government to be a socialist
government. On the other side, you don't consider them to be so. Where is
that line drawn right now? Where will that line move to if McCain is
president? If Obama is president?

Let's forget the election for a minute. Where does Bush drawthis
line? Did you know the bail out had no contingency plan? The banks
did not have to list out what they were going to do with the billions
of dollars and now they are just sitting on it instead of using it to
help people with the mortgage debacle. Oop, I made a mistake. It's
not 700 billion, it's 850 billion, not to mention the trillions spent
on the war by the capitalist government.


Hey - don't forget the Democrats had a hand in the "bail out" and Obama and
Barney Frank took lots of money from Freddie and Fannie.


Cheryl

In article
,
Artful Dodger wrote:

Hardly anybody posting. Is it the change in seasons? The advent of
(sob) the early dark? Or -- the elections?

I am so tense, I feel it affecting me not only psychologically, but
perhaps even physically.

If I were a praying person, I would pray that my beloved country
doesn't fall back into the hands of the villains who
have been running it into the ground for more than the last 8 years.


Some root veggies simmer
Bit of celery, carrot and onion
Frozen chicken parts frying

Broth and noodles on stand bye
Mix it all

And the first glimpse of winter appears
no big deal

But sugar maple glory
Fading as I type

Yea I know of return
Still

.....


Bill

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

In article , Cheryl Isaak
wrote:

On 10/28/08 9:17 AM, in article ,
"Jangchub" wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:09:25 -0700, "Zoot" wrote:

...

BUT! Just because governments do these things does not automatically make
that government a socialistic government. It is how much they do these
things that earns them the title of Socialistic or not. There is a line
drawn, past which you would consider the government to be a socialist
government. On the other side, you don't consider them to be so. Where is
that line drawn right now? Where will that line move to if McCain is
president? If Obama is president?

Let's forget the election for a minute. Where does Bush drawthis
line? Did you know the bail out had no contingency plan? The banks
did not have to list out what they were going to do with the billions
of dollars and now they are just sitting on it instead of using it to
help people with the mortgage debacle. Oop, I made a mistake. It's
not 700 billion, it's 850 billion, not to mention the trillions spent
on the war by the capitalist government.


Hey - don't forget the Democrats had a hand in the "bail out" and Obama and
Barney Frank took lots of money from Freddie and Fannie.


Cheryl

There are enough valid criticisms of Obama one wonders why the loonies go
for lies and racism. Obama -- relative to most politicians I've
reluctantly supported for lack of better -- is not as imperfect as the
rest. But from two great idealistic poetic speeches that indicated a
capacity for humanity and leadership, he's fallen a few pegs as a mere
politician guarded about what he stands for this week, and as much in the
pockets of the invested as every other politician. He still plans to carry
on the war, but mostly in Afghanistan instead of mostly in Iraq; he
unfortunately supports the very "trickle down" economics of bailing out
wallstreet while home forclosures continue to skyrocket; and for the
abjectly impoverished, he's remained as quiet as a mouse. I still "hope"
for he's a bit more than the lesser of two evils, which is all I've been
able to vote for in the past. Time will tell.

-paghat the ratgirl
--
visit my temperate gardening website:
http://www.paghat.com
visit my film reviews website:
http://www.weirdwildrealm.com

On Oct 25, 6:58*am, Frank frankdotlogullo@comcastperiodnet wrote:
Cheryl Isaak wrote:
On 10/24/08 6:08 PM, in article
, "Frank"
frankdotlogullo@comcastperiodnet wrote:

Plants are dead or dying from frost. *As Gibbons said, "Time for the
meat course." *I'm hunting.

Send some venison my way please.

A bout of achy knee and achy shoulder has kept me from doing my fall clean
up. *Never did re-do the iris bed or weed out more garlic chives. I will go
cut the seed heads off and throw them on the "lawn".

Cheryl

My freezer's filling up and my adult sons have turned there nose up at
venison in the past but, now with current economy, their tastes are
changing.

The other day, I had a bowl of chestnut soup from my chestnuts and a
venison steak from doe contributor for lunch. Life could not be better.

I only had venizon once, and that was in New Zealand, at one of their
Maori "barbecues"
called a Hongi (sp?). They roast the meat in a pit. I didn't like the
taste at all, and am
wondering if venizon from different climates//zones/ hemispheres
would taste different.
Does it depend on
area, or or what they eat, or what?

Frank- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -