"enigma" wrote
"brooklyn1" wrote:

Don't really need fiberglass septic tanks for collecting rain
water for irrigation.

of course not, but a damaged fiberglass septic tank is a hell of a
lot cheaper than a poly tank!

Punctured tires are a hell of a lot cheaper too. But service stations sell
hardly used repaired tires regularly for nearly the price of new. My
neighbor got a flat last week on a trip back from Montreal and decided to
buy a repaired hardly used tire on a rim to replace the stupid donut....
still paid $70 for a repaired tire and rim when it would have cost $70 for a
new tire with no rim. She now has two repaired tires and no stupid donut...
and she got lucky that the service station in the middle of the Adirondacks
had a rim with repaired tire to fit. She did the smart thing, I wouldn't
drive a car with a donut for a spare.

I doubt there is a ready supply of cracked fiberglass tanks for free. Just
because someone claims to have acquired a couple in no way means everyone
can. And actually fiberglass vessels are produced by layering fiberglasss
cloth and resin over a form ... so anyone dealing in that market would
repair a cracked tank better than new and sell it as new, because unless it
were used to contain some sort of contaminants that couldn't be removed in
fact it would be new, better than new. Brand new fiberglass hulled water
craft accidently fracture in transport all the time, they are easily
repaired and sold as new, a fiberglass patch, like a weld, is stronger than
new. Corvette automobile bodies are very often damaged in transit, they are
easily repaired and the patch is stronger than new. I have a very difficult
time believing that a seller of fiberglass septic tanks would give them away
rather than repair the cracks. Just because someone happened to be in the
right place at the right time and got lucky doesn't mean everyone can rely
on glomming onto cracked fiberglass tanks.

And I don't know why anyone would need more than 100 gallon tank to collect
rain water for watering some plants around ones abode, and that's more of a
head trip than a real money saver. Anyone who lives where they can keep say
a 1000 gallon tank filled with rain water doesn't really need to be
collecting rain water if it rains that much. This entire concept of
collecting rain water in huge tanks where it hardly rains is really pretty
silly... the point of diminishing returns is reached at about 100 gallons,
probably more like a 55 gallon drum... begins to cost more to transfer and
haul than to turn on the hose bib. When there's a need for large quantities
of water for commercial purposes in arid climes they drill a well. No one
is going to maintain a lawn in say Las Vegas with collected rain water no
matter a 5,000 gallon tank, a lawn will drink up water in the desert faster
than it rains.

Yet another book.

http://www.oasisdesign.net/water/storage/

http://www.amazon.com/Water-Storage-...ent/dp/0964343
363/ref=sr_11_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1234714756&sr=11-1

Last URL has some reviews.

Bill who has plenty of water however our aquifer is being tapped and
major super waste sites are all about.

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

"Phisherman" wrote in message
news


About these septic tanks... When set up are these placed underground
like a cistern, or left above ground for their beauty and all the
neighbors to enjoy?

I put the tanks up on 'cribs' built of some 4x4 beams salvaged when I tore
down an old tractor shed. My closest neighbors were about 4 miles away so
their yapping dogs, leaf blowers, music blasting from shitty outdoor
speakers duct taped to their trailer and any comments on my 'projects'
weren't really an issue. The tanks were on the backside of the barn and the
back corner of the house and wasn't seen from windows or during casual
meanderings about the 'estate' so I wasn't really worried about aesthetics.
I also built a sort of lean-to roof over them so they wouldn't get the sun
beating down on them. That was suggested by the guy I bought them from to
keep them from breaking down from UVs or whatever. I drained them completely
before winter set in since we had weather cold enough to freeze lakes thick
enough to park a camper on while ice fishing. When I set them up I just
drilled a hole at the bottom corner and put in a spigot. I just used a hole
saw and seated the spigot with silicone. The tank was set so it was about 4
inches lower at the spigot end.

Here's just a thought. Since you have a good water source with the pond,
albeit somewhat inconvenient, maybe you could pump from the pond when you
need it to a water barrel placed a bit above ground level right in your
garden. If you put a water barrel on a platform, had a hose attached to the
bottom of the barrel you could water by gravity feed. The barrels sold as
water barrels already have a spigot attached just for this purpose. If you
don't have an electrical source for a pump a solar pump
http://www.solarpumps.com/ could bring the water from the pond to the
barrel. A wire cage at the suction end of the pump hose would keep the fish
out. You also might want to check with the local authorities to see if it's
legal to pump from that pond if you decide to do something like this.
There's all kinds of regulations about that, depending on where you live,
even if the pond is on private property.

Val

"Jangchub" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 01:52:31 -0600, "Dioclese" NONE wrote:
I live in Austin, Texas where the soil is either deep or 5" deep with
solid limestone and caliche and there are a ton of fiberglass pools
installed every year all over the place. Those fiberglass structures
are many times more resilient than metal and aren't little flimsy,
thinly made tanks. They are very strong.
Victoria


Yes, you are absolutely right Victoria, they are *very* strong. It's also
not legal to install a 'damaged or repaired' fiberglass septic tank for it's
originally intended purpose even if they are technically as good as new so
there goes ol brooklyn1's flat tire theory. I only told about the salvaged
septic tanks to suggest that people need to look around and see what's
available to do the job. I found a very workable and relatively inexpensive
solution to my water problem by doing a little thinking outside the box.
When I saw "water barrels" selling for $75 a pop I figured there HAD to be a
better way. Gardening, if done properly, is conducive to percolating and
pondering solutions to problems.

Val

brooklyn1 wrote:

And I don't know why anyone would need more than 100 gallon tank to
collect rain water for watering some plants around ones abode, and
that's more of a head trip than a real money saver.

Some people have gardens rather than a few plants.

Anyone who lives
where they can keep say a 1000 gallon tank filled with rain water
doesn't really need to be collecting rain water if it rains that
much.

Not true, you haven't thought this through. There are places where annual
rainfall is quite high but very seasonal or very erratic. You need to save
when it rains to water when it doesn't.

This entire concept of collecting rain water in huge tanks
where it hardly rains is really pretty silly... the point of
diminishing returns is reached at about 100 gallons, probably more
like a 55 gallon drum... begins to cost more to transfer and haul
than to turn on the hose bib.

What if there is no hose bib connected to mains supply? What if due to
drought watering gardens from the mains supply is forbidden?

Consider the cost and time of replacing a garden that has turned to dust
compared the cost of a watering system. Of course if you live in an area
where it hardly rains you would have to consider if you can grow a "normal"
garden at all before installing water tanks that will never fill.

When there's a need for large
quantities of water for commercial purposes in arid climes they drill
a well.

What if you are not in an area that has subterranean water?

No one is going to maintain a lawn in say Las Vegas with
collected rain water no matter a 5,000 gallon tank, a lawn will drink
up water in the desert faster than it rains.

Watering lawns will indeed require huge investment in a desert, I for one
would not attempt to grow a lawn in a desert.

David

"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
...
brooklyn1 wrote:

And I don't know why anyone would need more than 100 gallon tank to
collect rain water for watering some plants around ones abode, and
that's more of a head trip than a real money saver.

Some people have gardens rather than a few plants.

Anyone who lives
where they can keep say a 1000 gallon tank filled with rain water
doesn't really need to be collecting rain water if it rains that
much.

Not true, you haven't thought this through. There are places where annual
rainfall is quite high but very seasonal or very erratic. You need to
save when it rains to water when it doesn't.

That's true of most any area, no one can accurately predict weather. But no
matter how much it rains in any one period if it hasn't rained in awhile adn
likely won't rain anytime soon then you couldn't collect water at the rate
it needs to used for any but container gardening. Watering the ground where
it rains sporadically will literally be fruitless.

This entire concept of collecting rain water in huge tanks
where it hardly rains is really pretty silly... the point of
diminishing returns is reached at about 100 gallons, probably more
like a 55 gallon drum... begins to cost more to transfer and haul
than to turn on the hose bib.

What if there is no hose bib connected to mains supply?

Now I know you're not serious.

No one is going to maintain a lawn in say Las Vegas with
collected rain water no matter a 5,000 gallon tank, a lawn will drink
up water in the desert faster than it rains.

Watering lawns will indeed require huge investment in a desert, I for one
would not attempt to grow a lawn in a desert.

Nor should one attempt to grow a garden in a dessert, not unless they have a
constant piped in water source... like the Colorado River.

With all your theoretical "what-ifs" you ought not to be gardening period.

"Val" wrote in message
...

"Jangchub" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 01:52:31 -0600, "Dioclese" NONE wrote:
I live in Austin, Texas where the soil is either deep or 5" deep with
solid limestone and caliche and there are a ton of fiberglass pools
installed every year all over the place. Those fiberglass structures
are many times more resilient than metal and aren't little flimsy,
thinly made tanks. They are very strong.
Victoria


Yes, you are absolutely right Victoria, they are *very* strong. It's also
not legal to install a 'damaged or repaired' fiberglass septic tank for
it's originally intended purpose even if they are technically as good as
new so there goes ol brooklyn1's flat tire theory.

You can prove your theory?

Certainly you can't install an obviously damaged tank but you certainly can
install one that's been properly repaired, the same as one can drive down
the interstate on a patched tire. Fiberglass vessels are of laid up
constructrion, there is no way to tell whether they're patched... the entire
thing brand new is one big patch upon patch upon patch. And if a fiberglass
septic tank is damaged so badly that it can't be patched well enough to use
as a septic tank than it can't be patched well enough to hold liquid for any
purpose. And most all fiberglass septic tanks are designed to rely on the
rigidity afforded by being buried totally or in part, brand new they're not
safe to use totally above ground... they also need to be buried to protect
them from UV and freezing. Typically fiberglass septic tanks don't get
buried below grade, preferably a berm is built, of specified materials, that
covers and supports the tank. Just two years ago my neighbor across the
road built a new house and tried every which way to get around paying the
$40,000 it cost to place the tank and leach field etc. into a berm above
grade. Where I live the codes have recently become very strict regarding
septic system installation but I've never seen any code that says a
fiberglass tank cannot have been repaired before installation or after
installation. In many instances cesspools are installed, laid up block
cesspools are still permited in some areas... many folks still install
drywells, you can still buy a simple plastic dry well at Home Depot or make
one of a 55 gallon steel drum, or whatever. You can't make a blanket
statement saying what the laws are regarding septic systems, every
jurisdiction has different codes, and every installation is different...
every municipality has different building codes (some have none) so don't go
making stuff up.

Where I live there are lots of wetlands, most everyone including moi has
more than a few acres of wetlands, talk about strict, now we're taking
Federal laws. I never saw a word about repaired fiberglass septic tanks and
I happen to keep up on that stuff. I love living with wet lands, not five
minutes ago I looked out my window and this is why:
http://i43.tinypic.com/334oiur.jpg

In article ,
"brooklyn1" wrote:

"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
...
brooklyn1 wrote:

And I don't know why anyone would need more than 100 gallon tank to
collect rain water for watering some plants around ones abode, and
that's more of a head trip than a real money saver.

Some people have gardens rather than a few plants.

Anyone who lives
where they can keep say a 1000 gallon tank filled with rain water
doesn't really need to be collecting rain water if it rains that
much.

Not true, you haven't thought this through. There are places where annual
rainfall is quite high but very seasonal or very erratic. You need to
save when it rains to water when it doesn't.

That's true of most any area, no one can accurately predict weather. But no
matter how much it rains in any one period if it hasn't rained in awhile adn
likely won't rain anytime soon then you couldn't collect water at the rate
it needs to used for any but container gardening. Watering the ground where
it rains sporadically will literally be fruitless.

Not if you are running greenhouses and would have to have a retention
pond, if you did not store the water. Many malls now have retention
ponds and use the water from it to water the grounds of the mall. The
rain runs off the parking lots and into the pond - there is pump in the
pond to move the water into a separate watering system to water the
grounds.


This entire concept of collecting rain water in huge tanks
where it hardly rains is really pretty silly... the point of
diminishing returns is reached at about 100 gallons, probably more
like a 55 gallon drum... begins to cost more to transfer and haul
than to turn on the hose bib.

What if there is no hose bib connected to mains supply?

Now I know you're not serious.

I am sure in the area you live and work in you are absolutely correct -
this is silly, and that you may even have been in enough other areas to
have built a general rule for why you think this is silly however...

In some areas there are now code requirements that prohibit a hose bib
from being installed on new construction. I just reviewed the new code
for one community in Australia, it was in that code. I have looked at
codes for Morocco and for other cities and seen similar restrictions.
The drier the area, the more likely the restriction is either in place
or being considered. Even Los Angeles and Los Vegas have considered this
in their building codes. So far they have not put it in - but if water
stays tight - they may be forced to if only to control swimming pool top
ups and yard watering.

There are parts of the world, where cisterns for rain water are very
common - in many cases a single home might have 1000 or more gallons -
it is not so much for watering as for living - I have been to houses in
Arizona with cisterns and tanks connected to the whole roof area - to
capture as much rain water as possible.


No one is going to maintain a lawn in say Las Vegas with
collected rain water no matter a 5,000 gallon tank, a lawn will drink
up water in the desert faster than it rains.

Watering lawns will indeed require huge investment in a desert, I for one
would not attempt to grow a lawn in a desert.

Nor should one attempt to grow a garden in a dessert, not unless they have a
constant piped in water source... like the Colorado River.

With all your theoretical "what-ifs" you ought not to be gardening period.

I have a good friend in Vegas who runs a hobby green house (mostly a
shade house, there is little need for glass most of the year) and he and
his wife has an extensive rain collection system - every time it rains
an inch - they put about 2500 gallons in their tanks - this is not only
roof run off, but run off from the road behind and above their
house...surprising how much water can be collected off a hard surface.

The rules in the US and Canada - even in Europe are not the rules the
world over - I have done work in more than 40 countries and am
constantly surprised by things that I would take for granted at home,
that I can not elsewhere - I am a pretty good traveler and read the
travel customs, but I have learned they only scratch the surface of the
things you need to know to work on conservation and energy efficiency in
most countries.

"Doug Houseman" wrote
What if there is no hose bib connected to mains supply?

Now I know you're not serious.

I am sure in the area you live and work in you are absolutely correct -
this is silly, and that you may even have been in enough other areas to
have built a general rule for why you think this is silly however...

In some areas there are now code requirements that prohibit a hose bib
from being installed on new construction. I just reviewed the new code
for one community in Australia, it was in that code. I have looked at
codes for Morocco

Anustrailia, Morocco... you're not serious... they don't even have indoor
plumbing. I've been to Morocco, they relieve themselves directly into the
street... the raw effluence runs downhill to who knows where. And Morrocans
never heard of TP, and they go from birth to grave never having bathed
either.

On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 16:28:42 -0800, "Val"
wrote:

[..]

BTW, if you are looking for a very inexpensive holding tank check out
septic tank companies. I got two 500 gallon septic tanks for $20 each.
They had been cracked when delivered to this company so couldn't be used
for the intended purpose but I just got a patch kit and fixed the cracks
when I got them home. Worked great.

[..]

I did email one company, but they didn't have any unsaleable ones for
low price.

Maybe after Pres.Day I will call/email a few more. Or maybe cheaper
just to get a few more trash barrels. Or maybe the whole thing will
be moot because we won't get any more rain. But some more coming up
next week; yay!

Persephone

On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 01:25:45 GMT, "brooklyn1"
wrote:


"Val" wrote in message
...

"Dioclese" NONE wrote in message
news
I'm guessing you meant the company that made a septic tank from those
individual tanks is where you got those 2 tanks.

--
Dave

They were two individual tanks, not even close to matching. Doubt if they
were even made by the same company by the looks of them. These come in
many shapes and sizes. No concrete is involved. I got them from a company
that installed septic systems, not manufacture tanks. Do a little perusing
of fiberglass septic tanks and it may become more clear to you.

Don't really need fiberglass septic tanks for collecting rain water for
irrigation.

http://www.watertanks.com/

I had checked that Web site, but the prices were more than I want to
pay.

Persephone.

On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 00:35:58 GMT, "brooklyn1"
wrote:


"Doug Houseman" wrote
What if there is no hose bib connected to mains supply?

Now I know you're not serious.

I am sure in the area you live and work in you are absolutely correct -
this is silly, and that you may even have been in enough other areas to
have built a general rule for why you think this is silly however...

In some areas there are now code requirements that prohibit a hose bib
from being installed on new construction. I just reviewed the new code
for one community in Australia, it was in that code. I have looked at
codes for Morocco

Anustrailia, Morocco... you're not serious... they don't even have indoor
plumbing. I've been to Morocco, they relieve themselves directly into the
street... the raw effluence runs downhill to who knows where. And Morrocans
never heard of TP, and they go from birth to grave never having bathed
either.

I don't know when you were in Morocco and where -- the cities or the
boonies -- Arab country or Berber?

I just came back from a two-week trip based around the Four Imperial
Cities, plus some others. Long bus rides in between, broken by
numerous interesting stops.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I never saw anyone relieve themselves in
the streets. Although our tour stayed in pretty nice -- some very
nice -- hotels, even the little curio shops or restaurants/coffee
shops along the highways had clean restrooms, with soap and TP and all
the usual amenities.

I speak French, so interacted with local people freely. Nobody stank
from not bathing.

You certainly have a, shall we say, one-sided view of the country.
Any more exact details to back up your contentions? Time? Place?
Extent of contact?

Persephone

brooklyn1 wrote:
"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
...
brooklyn1 wrote:

And I don't know why anyone would need more than 100 gallon tank to
collect rain water for watering some plants around ones abode, and
that's more of a head trip than a real money saver.

Some people have gardens rather than a few plants.

Anyone who lives
where they can keep say a 1000 gallon tank filled with rain water
doesn't really need to be collecting rain water if it rains that
much.

Not true, you haven't thought this through. There are places where
annual rainfall is quite high but very seasonal or very erratic. You need
to save when it rains to water when it doesn't.

That's true of most any area, no one can accurately predict weather. But
no matter how much it rains in any one period if it hasn't rained
in awhile adn likely won't rain anytime soon then you couldn't
collect water at the rate it needs to used for any but container
gardening. Watering the ground where it rains sporadically will
literally be fruitless.

1000 gallons US is about 4000l. Say you have a modest vege garden, 20
square metres (22sq yards) which would provide quite a lot for a family,
such a tank will allow you put on 25mm (an inch) once a week for 8 weeks
which keeps your veges growing. Or you could water say 5 fruit trees for 16
weeks and keep them alive until it rains. In my original post where 1000
gallons was mentioned I actually said 1000 plus and suggested a ground tank
(dam) might be better. Clearly the sums are different for each garden but
this doesn't mean you can generalise and say it is fruitless or that it
cannot be done.


This entire concept of collecting rain water in huge tanks
where it hardly rains is really pretty silly... the point of
diminishing returns is reached at about 100 gallons, probably more
like a 55 gallon drum... begins to cost more to transfer and haul
than to turn on the hose bib.

What if there is no hose bib connected to mains supply?

Now I know you're not serious.

Perfectly serious. Not every house in the world has mains water. I don't.
You jumped at the "no hose bib" part and didn't notice the "connected to
mains supply" part. This was not intended to trap you at all but does
illustrate your thinking is a little narrow.


No one is going to maintain a lawn in say Las Vegas with
collected rain water no matter a 5,000 gallon tank, a lawn will
drink up water in the desert faster than it rains.

Watering lawns will indeed require huge investment in a desert, I
for one would not attempt to grow a lawn in a desert.

Nor should one attempt to grow a garden in a dessert, not unless they
have a constant piped in water source... like the Colorado River.


I am not talking about gardening in a desert but a place with erratic or
seasonal rainfall where a water tank or dam may be a great help. In a
desert I would give up on veges and fruit trees (as well as lawn) unless I
had a source of water not rainfall dependent.

With all your theoretical "what-ifs" you ought not to be gardening
period.

I am using "what if" to try to get you to think about situations that you
haven't thought about. To suggest what I am describing is unreal or
irrelevant only shows you are making unwarranted assumptions. You should
stop being so parochial and not assume that the whole world is like your
back yard. This is an international forum.

David

brooklyn1 wrote:
"Doug Houseman" wrote
What if there is no hose bib connected to mains supply?

Now I know you're not serious.

I am sure in the area you live and work in you are absolutely
correct - this is silly, and that you may even have been in enough
other areas to have built a general rule for why you think this is
silly however... In some areas there are now code requirements that
prohibit a hose
bib from being installed on new construction. I just reviewed the
new code for one community in Australia, it was in that code. I have
looked at codes for Morocco

Anustrailia, Morocco... you're not serious... they don't even have
indoor plumbing. I've been to Morocco, they relieve themselves
directly into the street... the raw effluence runs downhill to who
knows where. And Morrocans never heard of TP, and they go from birth
to grave never having bathed either.

I haven't been to Morocco but we do actual have indoor plumbing in
Australia, at least since grandpa fell down the pit and grandma couldn't
pull him out without getting the tractor.

But don't knock the thunder box, some people used to have two-holers or even
more seats. It allows for converstion and somebody to hand you the
catalogue the travelling salesman leaves when you cannot reach it. Did you
know that was the reason that people prefered matt paper and glossy printed
catalogues didn't really take off?

David

"brooklyn1" wrote in message
...

"Val" wrote in message
...

"Jangchub" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 01:52:31 -0600, "Dioclese" NONE wrote:
I live in Austin, Texas where the soil is either deep or 5" deep with
solid limestone and caliche and there are a ton of fiberglass pools
installed every year all over the place. Those fiberglass structures
are many times more resilient than metal and aren't little flimsy,
thinly made tanks. They are very strong.
Victoria


Yes, you are absolutely right Victoria, they are *very* strong. It's also
not legal to install a 'damaged or repaired' fiberglass septic tank for
it's originally intended purpose even if they are technically as good as
new so there goes ol brooklyn1's flat tire theory.

You can prove your theory?

Certainly you can't install an obviously damaged tank but you certainly
can install one that's been properly repaired, the same as one can drive
down the interstate on a patched tire. Fiberglass vessels are of laid up
constructrion, there is no way to tell whether they're patched... the
entire thing brand new is one big patch upon patch upon patch. And if a
fiberglass septic tank is damaged so badly that it can't be patched well
enough to use as a septic tank than it can't be patched well enough to
hold liquid for any purpose. And most all fiberglass septic tanks are
designed to rely on the rigidity afforded by being buried totally or in
part, brand new they're not safe to use totally above ground... they also
need to be buried to protect them from UV and freezing. Typically
fiberglass septic tanks don't get buried below grade, preferably a berm is
built, of specified materials, that covers and supports the tank. Just
two years ago my neighbor across the road built a new house and tried
every which way to get around paying the $40,000 it cost to place the tank
and leach field etc. into a berm above grade. Where I live the codes have
recently become very strict regarding septic system installation but I've
never seen any code that says a fiberglass tank cannot have been repaired
before installation or after installation. In many instances cesspools
are installed, laid up block cesspools are still permited in some areas...
many folks still install drywells, you can still buy a simple plastic dry
well at Home Depot or make one of a 55 gallon steel drum, or whatever.
You can't make a blanket statement saying what the laws are regarding
septic systems, every jurisdiction has different codes, and every
installation is different... every municipality has different building
codes (some have none) so don't go making stuff up.

Where I live there are lots of wetlands, most everyone including moi has
more than a few acres of wetlands, talk about strict, now we're taking
Federal laws. I never saw a word about repaired fiberglass septic tanks
and I happen to keep up on that stuff. I love living with wet lands, not
five minutes ago I looked out my window and this is why:
http://i43.tinypic.com/334oiur.jpg


If using any material exposed to direct sunlight that's sensitive to UV, an
appropriate coat of paint will suffice.

To address the fiberglas septic tank installation issues you discuss, and
someone else infers not a problem with rocky terrain -
http://www.loomistank.com/download/i...SS_INSTALL.PDF

--
Dave

CDOs are how we got here.
A modified version, new taxes in the future, is how Congress will get us
out?