Hello, Maddie here (otherwise known by some of the older residents of
this garden neighborhood as the olde madgardener) now that I'm
frantically gardening somewhere in Western Tennessee in a warmer zone,
moister climate, low-lands and farmland abounding.........I have a
very serious question: I have now encountered my first and not last,
black Widow spider. I know they're out there. Especially since last
late summer when I was turning over the raised brick garden to plunk
in the few remaining container gardens and perennials, soil and all
into the raised dirt. The first encounter was the HUGE wench that was
blatently obvious in the eastern corner which once James, me
Englishman tilled up the soil from my turning it over first by hand
with a shovel, she revealed herself. We put her in a glass gallon
pickle jar, but she eventually died. The second one, right afterwards
was a smaller one (the first was as large as a fifty cent Kennedy
piece, serious!) she was the size of a quarter. She had moved into the
hollow spot on the bottom of a three gallon nursery pot filled with
daylilies. She got squashed, quickly. The third encounter was back
in the raised bed. She had used the roots and soil of some perennials
to make her cave, and I just plunked the whole thing in with the
thought that she'd be overcome and I had buried her alive. I don't
know if she was able to work her way out of the soil since the depth
was a foot down with daylily toes and soil above her to get through.
She's the reason I now have to remember to wear garden gloves or at
least those awesome latex gloves I found where I used to work that we
weren't allowed to use.

Since I have now had my first encounter with the first of many black
widows, my question is this, knowing that I am benevolent and usually
encourage the beneficials in my gardens.....this one is spinning her
capture webs over my window box that is sitting on the end of the
brick sedum and sunny perennials garden. When I was watering the
columbine that had sprung up in the middle of the Turkish toes sedums
that are growing in that long pot, I disturbed her and she huffed into
the crack where the bricks were meeting the shed back. As much as I
know she'll keep out bad bugs, I need to know if I should allow her to
live her life there and have her many children....or should I spray
her now and keep an eye peeled for future inhabitants? I've also seen
and had it killed, my first serious encounter with a brown recluse. I
kill those. this one wasn't too close to me, the neighbor showed it to
me, and then upon my insistance, smashed it. I realize that the black
widow bite won't kill me but I would feel like I was having a heart
attack, and given my age now, it could mess me up. The recluse is a
no-brainer. Beneficial or not, one has to use common sense. The
widow isn't agressive, and only bites when cornered. Should I spray
her dead and make her tidy little perfect corner uninhabitable?

thanks in advance........

madgardener over in the flatlands, gardening in her new Western Faerie
Holler, zone 7b somewhere in West Tennessee

On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 11:19:35 -0700 (PDT), madgardener
wrote:

Hello, Maddie here (otherwise known by some of the older residents of
....

madgardener over in the flatlands, gardening in her new Western Faerie
Holler, zone 7b somewhere in West Tennessee


Black widow bites are a serious health risk. And you already know
what needs to be done if you choose to reduce the risk. The egg case
should be burned.

"madgardener" wrote
I realize that the black
widow bite won't kill me but I would feel like I was having a heart
attack, and given my age now, it could mess me up. The recluse is a
no-brainer. Beneficial or not, one has to use common sense. The
widow isn't agressive, and only bites when cornered. Should I spray
her dead and make her tidy little perfect corner uninhabitable?

Adrenaline is toxic to the heart; I'd remove her one way or another just to
avoid all the anxiety, whether from an actual bite or even the ongoing
perceived possibility of one.

"madgardener" wrote
I realize that the black
widow bite won't kill me but I would feel like I was having a heart
attack, and given my age now, it could mess me up. The recluse is a
no-brainer. Beneficial or not, one has to use common sense. The
widow isn't agressive, and only bites when cornered. Should I spray
her dead and make her tidy little perfect corner uninhabitable?




When we moved into this house we had black widows that created webs
all around the small front porch and in a nearby basement window well.
We managed to kill them off after a few years.

Now we have some kind of spider that looks like a recluse and appears
spring and fall in the bathtub. I used to squash them, now I just
use the shower spray to flush them down the drain.

Ordinary garden spiders don't bother me. Venomous ones do.

gloria p

In article ,
"Nelly Wensdow" wrote:

"madgardener" wrote
I realize that the black
widow bite won't kill me but I would feel like I was having a heart
attack, and given my age now, it could mess me up. The recluse is a
no-brainer. Beneficial or not, one has to use common sense. The
widow isn't agressive, and only bites when cornered. Should I spray
her dead and make her tidy little perfect corner uninhabitable?

Adrenaline is toxic to the heart; I'd remove her one way or another just to
avoid all the anxiety, whether from an actual bite or even the ongoing
perceived possibility of one.

If you don't have flies (enteric bacteria), or mosquitos (malaria, or
heartworm [in dogs]) no problem.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

Blackwidow spiders will not bother you. One of the more beneficial
arthroposds you can have in the garden. You wont find many and will not harm
you if you just evade them. I've picked tomatos right by them. Just do it
slowly.

On Apr 16, 2:01*pm, Bud wrote:
Blackwidow spiders will not bother you. One of the more beneficial
arthroposds you can have in the garden. You wont find many and will not harm
you if you just evade them. I've picked tomatos right by them. Just do it
slowly.

I wanted to thank all of you for your input. Knowing I still have
more than two or three out there, I went to make the final decision,
and because I had disturbed her web that she'd cast over my sedums and
baby plants from the open crack in the bricks, she huffed off and
didn't replace it. I believe she moved. Where is a ponder. I will
have to be cautious now as I have temporairly moved the larger cactus
to the edge of the carport where they can get the benefit of the full
southern sun until I can position them out where they'll get rain and
such. This black widow has moved on somewhere else. (I have to remind
James that the tarp he's stretched over his tools on the back of the
carport is VERRRRY inviting.........not only for widows but
unfortunately for recluse. Although I don't think they'd tolerate each
other. it would be one or the other. But knowing that if I am
cautious and aware of them, I can let them be is a better solution.
I'd not do this if my grand babies were in my gardens. But I'm too
far for them to visit. I'm still going to have to become diligent
about wearing gloves only because I have too many wonderful places for
widows to make a home. Thanks for your input! (I love rattlesnake, by
the way......it's not bad as I remember. didn't really taste like
chicken, but it was a white meat that I recall. My great uncle Az
cooked a few when we visited him and his wife in Texas when I was a
young child. Aunt Hattie fried it and it wasn't bad.

thanks guys! I'll crank out a garden ramble soon. slipping behind
the willow oaks............

madgardener in west faerie holler somewhere in far West Tennessee,
zone 7b, Sunset zone 33

"madgardener" wrote in message
...
Hello, Maddie here (otherwise known by some of the older residents of
this garden neighborhood as the olde madgardener) now that I'm
frantically gardening somewhere in Western Tennessee in a warmer zone,
moister climate, low-lands and farmland abounding.........I have a
very serious question: I have now encountered my first and not last,
black Widow spider. I know they're out there. Especially since last
snip

Hello Maddie and others,

This is my first foray into rec.gardens and I thought I'd start here with my
introduction. Just planted my one pot grown tomato, (yes 1 tomato of the
year), 'Better Bush'.
When ground reaches 70F I will plant my 3 Okra plants, from there I don't
know.
I had a 20 x 40 foot garden patch in South Carolina on 4.2 acres, but
recently moved into a "gag" subdivision in North Carolina (near Charlotte)
and have yet to set up a tiny garden spot.

What I learned about spiders, wasps and snakes in SC was to be diligent
about keeping a neat trimmed grass, remove debris often around home and
buildings, my philosophy is I will defend my home from all critters with
fierceness! They, the critters can have the rest of the world but none will
survive within 50 feet of My home! Any time an interloper comes crawling
around they are quickly dispatched with extreme prejudice! I had lots of
little snakes around the house as it was unkempt for quite a while and I
relocated those to the woods, wasps get an immediate dose of wasp spray and
treat windows around outside with crawling insect spray. Tiny frogs and
lizards get relocated too.

To stay on topic here, I pulled this up on Wiki about, Latrodectus mactans,
the (southern) Black widow at,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_black_widow#Range

See also: Spider bite
Although these spiders are not especially large, their venom is extremely
potent. Compared to many other species of spiders, their chelicerae are not
very large or powerful. In the case of a mature female, the hollow, needle
shaped part of each chelicera, the part that penetrates the skin, is
approximately 1.0 millimeters (about 0.04 in) long, long enough to inject
the venom to a point where it can be harmful. The males, being much smaller,
inject far less venom with smaller chelicerae. The actual amount injected,
even by a mature female, is very small in physical volume. When this small
amount of venom is diffused throughout the body of a healthy, mature human,
it usually does not amount to a fatal dose (though it can produce the very
unpleasant symptoms of latrodectism). Deaths in healthy adults from
Latrodectus bites are relatively rare in terms of the number of bites per
thousand people. Sixty-three deaths were reported in the United States
between 1950 and 1959[16]. On the other hand, the geographical range of the
widow spiders is very great. As a result, far more people are exposed,
worldwide, to widow bites than to bites of more dangerous spiders, so the
highest number of deaths worldwide are caused by members of their genus.
Widow spiders have more potent venom than most spiders, and prior to the
development of antivenin, 5%[17] of reported bites resulted in fatalities.
The venom can cause a swelling up to 15 cm. Improvements in plumbing have
greatly reduced the incidence of bites and fatalities in areas where outdoor
privies have been replaced by flush toilets.
There are a number of active components in the venom:
Latrotoxins
A number of smaller polypeptides - toxins interacting with cation channels
which display spatial structure homology - which can affect the functioning
of calcium, sodium, or potassium channels.
Adenosine
Guanosine
Inosine
2,4,6-trihydroxypurine.
The venom is neurotoxic.

madgardener over in the flatlands, gardening in her new Western Faerie
Holler, zone 7b somewhere in West Tennessee



--
regards, piedmont (michael)
The Practical BBQ'r - http://sites.google.com/site/thepracticalbbqr/
(mawil55) Hardiness Zone 7-8

In article ,
"piedmont" wrote:

"madgardener" wrote in message
...
Hello, Maddie here (otherwise known by some of the older residents of
this garden neighborhood as the olde madgardener) now that I'm
frantically gardening somewhere in Western Tennessee in a warmer zone,
moister climate, low-lands and farmland abounding.........I have a
very serious question: I have now encountered my first and not last,
black Widow spider. I know they're out there. Especially since last
snip

Hello Maddie and others,

This is my first foray into rec.gardens and I thought I'd start here with my
introduction. Just planted my one pot grown tomato, (yes 1 tomato of the
year), 'Better Bush'.
When ground reaches 70F I will plant my 3 Okra plants, from there I don't
know.
I had a 20 x 40 foot garden patch in South Carolina on 4.2 acres, but
recently moved into a "gag" subdivision in North Carolina (near Charlotte)
and have yet to set up a tiny garden spot.

What I learned about spiders, wasps and snakes in SC was to be diligent
about keeping a neat trimmed grass, remove debris often around home and
buildings, my philosophy is I will defend my home from all critters with
fierceness! They, the critters can have the rest of the world but none will
survive within 50 feet of My home! Any time an interloper comes crawling
around they are quickly dispatched with extreme prejudice! I had lots of
little snakes around the house as it was unkempt for quite a while and I
relocated those to the woods, wasps get an immediate dose of wasp spray and
treat windows around outside with crawling insect spray. Tiny frogs and
lizards get relocated too.

Welcome to "wrecked gardens", personally, I hope you find the site
informative.

You may wish to look up "Biodiversity"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiversity
#Human_benefits, and #Destruction_of_habitat

The simplest model would be the wolf and the rabbit, when their
populations are in balance, neither are a nuisance to humans, but let
the wolf population drop and the rabbits eat everything in sight. Let
the rabbit population drop, and hungry wolves become a menace to people.

Kill spiders, and you invite mosquitos and/or flies. The other resort is
polluting the environment with insecticides (see
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...guins-ddt.html)
.. You will find many gardeners here who will grant wildlife, a portion
of their crops, beyond that, you need to look into "integrated pest
management".

I'm not suggesting that you let Black Widows into your bed, but you may
want to cut non-venomous critters some slack, as they are probably
performing an indispensable service for you.

To stay on topic here, I pulled this up on Wiki about, Latrodectus mactans,
the (southern) Black widow at,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_black_widow#Range

See also: Spider bite
Although these spiders are not especially large, their venom is extremely
potent. Compared to many other species of spiders, their chelicerae are not
very large or powerful. In the case of a mature female, the hollow, needle
shaped part of each chelicera, the part that penetrates the skin, is
approximately 1.0 millimeters (about 0.04 in) long, long enough to inject
the venom to a point where it can be harmful. The males, being much smaller,
inject far less venom with smaller chelicerae. The actual amount injected,
even by a mature female, is very small in physical volume. When this small
amount of venom is diffused throughout the body of a healthy, mature human,
it usually does not amount to a fatal dose (though it can produce the very
unpleasant symptoms of latrodectism). Deaths in healthy adults from
Latrodectus bites are relatively rare in terms of the number of bites per
thousand people. Sixty-three deaths were reported in the United States
between 1950 and 1959[16]. On the other hand, the geographical range of the
widow spiders is very great. As a result, far more people are exposed,
worldwide, to widow bites than to bites of more dangerous spiders, so the
highest number of deaths worldwide are caused by members of their genus.
Widow spiders have more potent venom than most spiders, and prior to the
development of antivenin, 5%[17] of reported bites resulted in fatalities.
The venom can cause a swelling up to 15 cm. Improvements in plumbing have
greatly reduced the incidence of bites and fatalities in areas where outdoor
privies have been replaced by flush toilets.
There are a number of active components in the venom:
Latrotoxins
A number of smaller polypeptides - toxins interacting with cation channels
which display spatial structure homology - which can affect the functioning
of calcium, sodium, or potassium channels.
Adenosine
Guanosine
Inosine
2,4,6-trihydroxypurine.
The venom is neurotoxic.

madgardener over in the flatlands, gardening in her new Western Faerie
Holler, zone 7b somewhere in West Tennessee
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

"Billy" wrote in message
...
snip

Welcome to "wrecked gardens", personally, I hope you find the site
informative.

You may wish to look up "Biodiversity"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiversity
#Human_benefits, and #Destruction_of_habitat

The simplest model would be the wolf and the rabbit, when their
populations are in balance, neither are a nuisance to humans, but let
the wolf population drop and the rabbits eat everything in sight. Let
the rabbit population drop, and hungry wolves become a menace to people.

Kill spiders, and you invite mosquitos and/or flies. The other resort is
polluting the environment with insecticides (see
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...guins-ddt.html)
. You will find many gardeners here who will grant wildlife, a portion
of their crops, beyond that, you need to look into "integrated pest
management".

I'm not suggesting that you let Black Widows into your bed, but you may
want to cut non-venomous critters some slack, as they are probably
performing an indispensable service for you.

snip
--
- Billy

I hear what your saying and do try to leave a small footprint, here in the
Carolina's wasp can be over whelming and try to set up nests everywhere. If
I see a nest on my front or back porch they are dispatched, anywhere else
they aren't a bother, oh I forgot under the raised back deck where I stored
my lawn tractor.

As far as spiders a strongly suggest wearing gloves at all times working in
a garden and especially if picking up rocks. I totally understand and have
personally observed tampering with the thread. I worked at a shop when one
day a mouse was seen in an office trash can after the weekend, big deal,
dump it out , but because the ladies in the office freaked the mgr had rat
bait put out to kill all the mice. Well guess what, after all the mice where
killed there was a gross invasion of hundreds of roaches that the mice ate
and kept at bay. It was indeed better to have the mice!




--
regards, piedmont (michael)
The Practical BBQ'r - http://sites.google.com/site/thepracticalbbqr/
(mawil55) Hardiness Zone 7-8

On Apr 19, 6:00*pm, "piedmont" wrote:
"Billy" wrote in message

....
snip







Welcome to "wrecked gardens", personally, I hope you find the site
informative.

You may wish to look up "Biodiversity"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiversity
#Human_benefits, and #Destruction_of_habitat

The simplest model would be the wolf and the rabbit, when their
populations are in balance, neither are a nuisance to humans, but let
the wolf population drop and the rabbits eat everything in sight. Let
the rabbit population drop, and hungry wolves become a menace to people..

Kill spiders, and you invite mosquitos and/or flies. The other resort is
polluting the environment with insecticides (see
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...guins-ddt.html)
. You will find many gardeners here who will grant wildlife, a portion
of their crops, beyond that, you need to look into "integrated pest
management".

I'm not suggesting that you let Black Widows into your bed, but you may
want to cut non-venomous critters some slack, as they are probably
performing an indispensable service for you.

snip
--
- Billy

I hear what your saying and do try to leave a small footprint, here in the
Carolina's wasp can be over whelming and try to set up nests everywhere. If
I see a nest on my front or back porch they are dispatched, anywhere else
they aren't a bother, oh I forgot under the raised back deck where I stored
my lawn tractor.

As far as spiders a strongly suggest wearing gloves at all times working in
a garden and especially if picking up rocks. I totally understand and have
personally observed tampering with the thread. I worked at a shop when one
day a mouse was seen in an office trash can after the weekend, big deal,
dump it out , but because the ladies in the office freaked the mgr had rat
bait put out to kill all the mice. Well guess what, after all the mice where
killed there was a gross invasion of hundreds of roaches that the mice ate
and kept at bay. It was indeed better to have the mice!

--
regards, piedmont (michael)
The Practical BBQ'r -http://sites.google.com/site/thepracticalbbqr/
(mawil55) Hardiness Zone 7-8- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

loved the imput and responses concerning the more serious aspects of
the widow's bite. I've spotted three more recently. At least they ARE
easy to spot. I had no idea the recluse were so large and ugly
though! euck! I don't like them in the least. The widow I happened
across was in the same place as the toad I relocated onto my property.
And then two days later I found I had toads of my own! woo hoo! I
wear gloves now as a matter of habit. My footprint in regards to the
critters is light. wasp are so good to deter catepillars, I let them
alone. I do have a habit of watching out for the red bodied black
winged bitches in early Spring and Fall when they're hungry after long
Winter and trying to find their own place to nest and then Fall when
they're grumpy and preparing. They don't sometimes need provocation.
But seeing the piece on the "yellow jackets" that were accidentally
introduced from the Pacific Northwest into Hawaii freaked me out.
WOW.....now I know what my girlfriend has encountered three times and
had to go to hospital for! holy crap! and my English husband was
watching the show with me and casually remarked that they looked a lot
like the yellow jackets they have in the UK. eeek! made killer bees
seem like sweet little honey bees.

I have a long garden ramble coming. so some can comment and critique
at hearts content. good to see folks are throwing out questions. I've
miss it. again, thanks for the banter on this. a great chat!
madgardener now in the Mississippi River Delta region in Western
Tennessee in her new Delta Faerie Holler bogs zone 7b, Sunset zone 33
(we survived the floods and tornado's! )