Nad R writes:

David Hare-Scott wrote:

If the way you defend it says anything I don't think your dour world
view is of a very rational origin. Anyway I don't want to get too
personal so let's not go any further in that direction.

The old saying "Who said that the human race was rational" actually the
correct word was "logical" from star trek. Yes, religion does play into an
optimist view point. A god would not let this happen. One more reason I see
no hope for the human race.

Don't agree. More of a personality thing. Religion certainly plays no
part in my case. Remember the Sunshine Makers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tZKZiIn1Yg

Do you really want to be sad?


--
Dan Espen

On Mon, 30 May 2011 14:24:26 -0700, Billy wrote:

The Ogalla Aquifer in Nebraska and Kansas seems OK, but it is running
dry in Texas and New Mexico. Aquifers in Yemen, India, northern China,
Afghanistan, Mexico, and Pakistan are being pumped faster than they can
recharge. There is fossil water aquifers in Saudi Arabia, which are
close to running dry. One fifth of the American grain, 3/5 Indian grain,
and 4/5 of China's grain comes from irrigation. India and China account
for 40% of the worlds population. These 3 countries account for 50% of
the world's annual grain harvest. Half the world's population live in
countries with falling aquifers. Forty percent of the world's grain
comes from irrigated land, and 70% of the worlds fresh water is used for
irrigation.

Snip of rest.

Billy, have you seen the movie, "Home" from the Home Project.

You might like it, if you can stay awake. ( I had to watch it twice,
fell asleep the first time.)

Why worry about the future? There are NO guarantees in life when it
comes to anything! Live one day at a time and be happy. The future
will take care of itself just as it has since time began.

In article ,
jellybean stonerfish wrote:

On Mon, 30 May 2011 14:24:26 -0700, Billy wrote:

The Ogalla Aquifer in Nebraska and Kansas seems OK, but it is running
dry in Texas and New Mexico. Aquifers in Yemen, India, northern China,
Afghanistan, Mexico, and Pakistan are being pumped faster than they can
recharge. There is fossil water aquifers in Saudi Arabia, which are
close to running dry. One fifth of the American grain, 3/5 Indian grain,
and 4/5 of China's grain comes from irrigation. India and China account
for 40% of the worlds population. These 3 countries account for 50% of
the world's annual grain harvest. Half the world's population live in
countries with falling aquifers. Forty percent of the world's grain
comes from irrigated land, and 70% of the worlds fresh water is used for
irrigation.

Snip of rest.

Billy, have you seen the movie, "Home" from the Home Project.

You might like it, if you can stay awake. ( I had to watch it twice,
fell asleep the first time.)

No, I haven't seen it, yet. I just looked at the trailer and the
photography is magnificent. Thanks.
http://www.youtube.com/homeproject#p/a/f/0/jqxENMKaeCU

I presume that most people would rather stick their heads in the sand
rather than know what's going on. That may be a reasonable thing to do
since there doesn't seem to be much of anything that we can do about the
destruction of habitat on our planet that we, and other species, require
to survive. It has been calculated that to continue consuming natural
resources, sustainably, at our present rate, we would need one and a
half Earths. In a reasonable world, ****ed-off, irate citizens would be
in the streets with pitchfork and torches, insisting on our world back,
but Americans aren't Egyptians. By the time we are, it may be too late.

World wide water and food shortages by 2020 - 30 (The federal government
says that thirty-six states face water shortages in the next five
years.), 12 billion people by 2065, and our 400 Mubaraks salt away
billions of dollars against the coming hard times. Billionaires can't be
too careful in protecting themselves. They need our money. It is the
billionaires who own the corporations that buy the politicians, who need
a billion dollars to run for president. ($1,000,000,000)

Taxes
Citizen$ --- Government --- Corporations --- Top 1% --Where our
money went

but I digress.
--
- Billy

Mad dog Republicans to the right. Democratic spider webs to the left. True conservatives, and liberals not to be found anywhere in the phantasmagoria
of the American political landscape.

America is not broke. The country is awash in wealth and cash.
It's just that it's not in your hands. It has been transferred, in the
greatest heist in history, from the workers and consumers to the banks
and the portfolios of the uber-rich.
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/.../michael-moore
/michael-moore-says-400-americans-have-more-wealth-/

wrote:
Nad R writes:

David Hare-Scott wrote:

If the way you defend it says anything I don't think your dour world
view is of a very rational origin. Anyway I don't want to get too
personal so let's not go any further in that direction.

The old saying "Who said that the human race was rational" actually the
correct word was "logical" from star trek. Yes, religion does play into an
optimist view point. A god would not let this happen. One more reason I see
no hope for the human race.

Don't agree. More of a personality thing. Religion certainly plays no
part in my case. Remember the Sunshine Makers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tZKZiIn1Yg

Do you really want to be sad?


I am happy as can be since my retirement... I am enjoying this life at this
moment...
Could not be better... Well I could use great looking chick half my age


--
Enjoy Life... Nad R (Garden in zone 5a Michigan)

In article ,
David Hare-Scott wrote:

On Tue, 31 May 2011 15:24:14 +1000, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given
wrote:

"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message

Because you cannot get people to do something they believe is
impossible and you cannot get them to work their hardest if they don't
see a positive outcome at some time now or in the future.

Positive feelings don't allow you to do things that are physically
impossible but they a degree of faith allows you to get towards doing
your best. This is the basis of sport psychology, any kind of
leadership and one of the better aspects of religion. It is a
question of motivating people, you cannot motivate people well if they
feel hopeless.

That sort of 'leadership' approach has always given me a case of the squits.
I never watch team sports because of all that jolly hockey sticks coaching
stuff which makes me want to gag. Such an approach doesn't allow for more
than one mode of motivation and I believe that individuals can be motivated
by many and varied techniques/approaches. Give me a rationale rather than
that warm and fuzzy fluff stuff.


I am no team sport fan and the rah rah stuff is no good to me
personally but it does work on most people, especially groups of
males.

Likewise a leader is no use to me unless I have a rational reason for
going where they are going but that ought to be part of the package
anyway by my definition of good leader.

Forget about my examples, let's go back to the original topic. How
are you going to get humanity to change their energy, transport and
food systems?

The approach of rational persuasion based on evidence has been a
conspicuous failure so far. Why? It has been successfully countered
by an irrational denial campaign. Bullshit baffles brains. Or at
least has done this far.

Fear will jog people out of their apathy and get things moving. Once
you have done that what will motivate them to accept the transitional
hardships? Hope for the future. If they feel hopeless they will not
act as effectively, it will take longer and the consequences will be
harsher.

David

Fear may jog people out of their apathy and get things moving, but first
they have to know that a problem exists. In the US 90% of the news is
controlled by 5 corporations, and because they are interlocked, they all
give us pretty much the same pablum.

* 83 percent of all U.S. stocks are in the hands of 1 percent of the
people.

* 66 percent of the income growth between 2001 and 2007 went to the
top 1% of all Americans.

* The top 1 percent of U.S. households own nearly twice as much of
America's corporate wealth as they did 15 years ago.

* Despite the financial crisis, the number of millionaires in the
United States rose 16 percent to 7.8 million in 2009.



* As of 2007, the bottom 80 percent of American households held about
7% of the liquid financial assets.

* The bottom 50 percent of income earners in the United States now
collectively own less than 1 percent of the nation's wealth.

Giant Sucking Sound

Obviously, the top 1% of income earners think business is right on
target, and we shouldn't change a thing, despite the 16,000 children who
will die today from hunger and related illnesses.

If we do get out of line, Haliburton has built new detention centers for
us, and it won't be the friendly face of the National Guard who arrests
us, it will be the Xe (Black Water) mercenaries, as in New Orleans.
--
- Billy

Mad dog Republicans to the right. Democratic spider webs to the left. True conservatives, and liberals not to be found anywhere in the phantasmagoria
of the American political landscape.

America is not broke. The country is awash in wealth and cash.
It's just that it's not in your hands. It has been transferred, in the
greatest heist in history, from the workers and consumers to the banks
and the portfolios of the uber-rich.
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/.../michael-moore
/michael-moore-says-400-americans-have-more-wealth-/

In article ,
Nad R wrote:

As an atheist, I know it is an impossible task to change people's view
point on many things.

Foxholes can be dangerous to your atheism :O)
--
- Billy

Mad dog Republicans to the right. Democratic spider webs to the left. True conservatives, and liberals not to be found anywhere in the phantasmagoria
of the American political landscape.

America is not broke. The country is awash in wealth and cash.
It's just that it's not in your hands. It has been transferred, in the
greatest heist in history, from the workers and consumers to the banks
and the portfolios of the uber-rich.
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/.../michael-moore
/michael-moore-says-400-americans-have-more-wealth-/

On Tue, 31 May 2011 19:02:38 +0000 (UTC), Nad R
wrote:

wrote:
Nad R writes:

David Hare-Scott wrote:

If the way you defend it says anything I don't think your dour world
view is of a very rational origin. Anyway I don't want to get too
personal so let's not go any further in that direction.

The old saying "Who said that the human race was rational" actually the
correct word was "logical" from star trek. Yes, religion does play into an
optimist view point. A god would not let this happen. One more reason I see
no hope for the human race.

Don't agree. More of a personality thing. Religion certainly plays no
part in my case. Remember the Sunshine Makers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tZKZiIn1Yg

Do you really want to be sad?


I am happy as can be since my retirement... I am enjoying this life at this
moment...
Could not be better... Well I could use great looking chick half my age

She'd kill you, and get all your stuff... you're better off with three
year old Bessy.

Billy writes:

In article ,
jellybean stonerfish wrote:

On Mon, 30 May 2011 14:24:26 -0700, Billy wrote:

The Ogalla Aquifer in Nebraska and Kansas seems OK, but it is running
dry in Texas and New Mexico. Aquifers in Yemen, India, northern China,
Afghanistan, Mexico, and Pakistan are being pumped faster than they can
recharge. There is fossil water aquifers in Saudi Arabia, which are
close to running dry. One fifth of the American grain, 3/5 Indian grain,
and 4/5 of China's grain comes from irrigation. India and China account
for 40% of the worlds population. These 3 countries account for 50% of
the world's annual grain harvest. Half the world's population live in
countries with falling aquifers. Forty percent of the world's grain
comes from irrigated land, and 70% of the worlds fresh water is used for
irrigation.

Snip of rest.

Billy, have you seen the movie, "Home" from the Home Project.

You might like it, if you can stay awake. ( I had to watch it twice,
fell asleep the first time.)

No, I haven't seen it, yet. I just looked at the trailer and the
photography is magnificent. Thanks.
http://www.youtube.com/homeproject#p/a/f/0/jqxENMKaeCU

I presume that most people would rather stick their heads in the sand
rather than know what's going on. That may be a reasonable thing to do
since there doesn't seem to be much of anything that we can do about the
destruction of habitat on our planet that we, and other species, require
to survive.

Actually, most of the resource issues can be solved easily.
One child per family and in a few centuries we'd be back at sustainable
levels.

Right now that doesn't seem to be in the cards but there is a small
chance we'll learn.

The habitat will come back even if we to wait for plate subduction.

--
Dan Espen

In article , wrote:

Billy writes:

In article ,
jellybean stonerfish wrote:

On Mon, 30 May 2011 14:24:26 -0700, Billy wrote:

The Ogalla Aquifer in Nebraska and Kansas seems OK, but it is running
dry in Texas and New Mexico. Aquifers in Yemen, India, northern China,
Afghanistan, Mexico, and Pakistan are being pumped faster than they can
recharge. There is fossil water aquifers in Saudi Arabia, which are
close to running dry. One fifth of the American grain, 3/5 Indian grain,
and 4/5 of China's grain comes from irrigation. India and China account
for 40% of the worlds population. These 3 countries account for 50% of
the world's annual grain harvest. Half the world's population live in
countries with falling aquifers. Forty percent of the world's grain
comes from irrigated land, and 70% of the worlds fresh water is used for
irrigation.

Snip of rest.

Billy, have you seen the movie, "Home" from the Home Project.

You might like it, if you can stay awake. ( I had to watch it twice,
fell asleep the first time.)

No, I haven't seen it, yet. I just looked at the trailer and the
photography is magnificent. Thanks.
http://www.youtube.com/homeproject#p/a/f/0/jqxENMKaeCU

I presume that most people would rather stick their heads in the sand
rather than know what's going on. That may be a reasonable thing to do
since there doesn't seem to be much of anything that we can do about the
destruction of habitat on our planet that we, and other species, require
to survive.

Actually, most of the resource issues can be solved easily.
One child per family and in a few centuries we'd be back at sustainable
levels.

Right now that doesn't seem to be in the cards but there is a small
chance we'll learn.

The habitat will come back even if we to wait for plate subduction.

Another REALLY excellent book:
The World Without Us (Paperback)
by Alan Weisman
http://www.amazon.com/World-Without-...2427905/ref=sr
_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1274206221&sr=1-1
--
- Billy

Mad dog Republicans to the right. Democratic spider webs to the left. True conservatives, and liberals not to be found anywhere in the phantasmagoria
of the American political landscape.

America is not broke. The country is awash in wealth and cash.
It's just that it's not in your hands. It has been transferred, in the
greatest heist in history, from the workers and consumers to the banks
and the portfolios of the uber-rich.
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/.../michael-moore
/michael-moore-says-400-americans-have-more-wealth-/

Brooklyn1 Gravesend1 wrote:
On Tue, 31 May 2011 19:02:38 +0000 (UTC), Nad R
wrote:

wrote:
Nad R writes:

David Hare-Scott wrote:

If the way you defend it says anything I don't think your dour world
view is of a very rational origin. Anyway I don't want to get too
personal so let's not go any further in that direction.

The old saying "Who said that the human race was rational" actually the
correct word was "logical" from star trek. Yes, religion does play into an
optimist view point. A god would not let this happen. One more reason I see
no hope for the human race.

Don't agree. More of a personality thing. Religion certainly plays no
part in my case. Remember the Sunshine Makers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tZKZiIn1Yg

Do you really want to be sad?


I am happy as can be since my retirement... I am enjoying this life at this
moment...
Could not be better... Well I could use great looking chick half my age

She'd kill you, and get all your stuff... you're better off with three
year old Bessy.

I really do wish prostitution was legal in Michigan. However for
companionship there is the dog which is probably better than a wife. Also I
read somewhere I am now in the majority... Only 48 percent of Americans are
married, an all time low.

--
Enjoy Life... Nad R (Garden in zone 5a Michigan)

Growing aliment on the bounds of a person's akin is aswell rising. From Michigan anesthetized a medical edger law, now there are abounding shops and hydroponic Garden on anniversary artery corner. There are all kinds of shops abound lights, ample pots and fertilizers to abound alone about that's all.

"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 31 May 2011 15:24:14 +1000, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given
wrote:

"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message

Because you cannot get people to do something they believe is
impossible and you cannot get them to work their hardest if they don't
see a positive outcome at some time now or in the future.

Positive feelings don't allow you to do things that are physically
impossible but they a degree of faith allows you to get towards doing
your best. This is the basis of sport psychology, any kind of
leadership and one of the better aspects of religion. It is a
question of motivating people, you cannot motivate people well if they
feel hopeless.

That sort of 'leadership' approach has always given me a case of the
squits.
I never watch team sports because of all that jolly hockey sticks coaching
stuff which makes me want to gag. Such an approach doesn't allow for more
than one mode of motivation and I believe that individuals can be
motivated
by many and varied techniques/approaches. Give me a rationale rather
than
that warm and fuzzy fluff stuff.


I am no team sport fan and the rah rah stuff is no good to me
personally but it does work on most people, especially groups of
males.

Yeah. Sad ain't it? :-))

Likewise a leader is no use to me unless I have a rational reason for
going where they are going but that ought to be part of the package
anyway by my definition of good leader.

Forget about my examples, let's go back to the original topic. How
are you going to get humanity to change their energy, transport and
food systems?

I wish I knew. I suspect that there are few people who actually spend time
thinking and unless/until that happens, how on earth can any change take
place? There has to be a scintilla of thought that there is in fact a
problem before there is either recognition that something has to be done
(and by individuals as much as governments).

People still don't even seem to have made the connection between excess
speed and fuel consumption and yet they still complain that fuel costs are
inordinate but don't seem capable of driving at less than 10 km/hour OVER
the speed limit. If they can't grasp that simple concept, how is anything
more complex going to percolate to the surface in those dim brains?

The approach of rational persuasion based on evidence has been a
conspicuous failure so far. Why? It has been successfully countered
by an irrational denial campaign. Bullshit baffles brains. Or at
least has done this far.

Yup. Too few brains around being used I suspect.

Fear will jog people out of their apathy and get things moving.

Or keep them frozen like a bunny in the headlights.

Once
you have done that what will motivate them to accept the transitional
hardships? Hope for the future. If they feel hopeless they will not
act as effectively, it will take longer and the consequences will be
harsher.

Hope must be a realistic possibility I would have thought. Have you looked
at people's houses and gardens lately? Not enough space to do anything
useful except park the 2 cars, the boat/jet ski/caravan trailer and have a
rim of decorative plants around the edge of the pool. A wasted and wastrel
existence TMWOT. I wouldn't let such ******* near my veggie garden because
they wouldn't know a plantain from a tomato.

"Nad R" wrote in message
...
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:
"Nad R" wrote in message

If the Earths environment gets real bad due to global warming, it will
not
be the end of human life. Nature itself will be destroyed, but humans
and
selected animals may continue in a controlled indoor environment. Like
living on another planet like Mars or Eaarth.

How do you see this as being a possibility where nature itself has been
destroyed?

I believe the human race can go on without nature. Food stuff probably can
be completely manufactured from basic elements. Quality of life may not be
there, but humans could continue. It may be true that I watch to much
science fiction also.
Way too much...

LOL. I suspect you might be right about too much SF.

"Nad R" wrote in message
...
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:
"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message

Because you cannot get people to do something they believe is
impossible and you cannot get them to work their hardest if they don't
see a positive outcome at some time now or in the future.

Positive feelings don't allow you to do things that are physically
impossible but they a degree of faith allows you to get towards doing
your best. This is the basis of sport psychology, any kind of
leadership and one of the better aspects of religion. It is a
question of motivating people, you cannot motivate people well if they
feel hopeless.

That sort of 'leadership' approach has always given me a case of the
squits.
I never watch team sports because of all that jolly hockey sticks
coaching
stuff which makes me want to gag. Such an approach doesn't allow for
more
than one mode of motivation and I believe that individuals can be
motivated
by many and varied techniques/approaches. Give me a rationale rather
than
that warm and fuzzy fluff stuff.

I agree with that FarmI. I hate team sports and never watch them. I prefer
to watch individuals sports, if i actually ever watch sport of any kind,
like running or biking.

I was going to comment on that also. The key word here is "Religion".
People who believe are those of a "team" like mind. Very difficult to
change those mind sets.

Opiate of the masses and all that jazz. There never was a more apt
description of religious zeal IMHO.