In article ,
songbird wrote:

Billy wrote:
...
And my point was we don't need a specialist, we need a generalist who
can adapt to whatever.

Researchers have cross-bred modern wheat seed with "ancient wild"
grass (the generalist).

yes, so that means they still have the generalist
available. i was just looking at Einkorn. doesn't
look threatened.

some seed lines are so ancient we haven't
been able to find the exact sources yet (corn being
one), but the sources

may

still exist in some corner
of the world. a lot left to be known.


songbird

Whether homo sapiens become Borg, or readily malleable GMOs, humanity's
best chance to endure is to hold on to ALL of our survival tricks,
biological, and technological.
--
Palestinian Child Detained
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzSzH38jYcg

Remember Rachel Corrie
http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

Welcome to the New America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg

Billy wrote:
....
Whether homo sapiens become Borg, or readily malleable GMOs, humanity's
best chance to endure is to hold on to ALL of our survival tricks,
biological, and technological.

the idea that some base human stock will
supply a better path forwards is likely a
false one if the designer has the knowledge
it would take to redo organisms from scratch.

we are not there yet. we are still in
the baby-step stage.

the future will likely be vastly different
than you or i can imagine. but it is still
fun to try.


songbird

Billy wrote:
....
The point that you seem to be dancing around is that modern cultivars
have lost much of their genetic diversity, and to breed new cultivars to
resist present conditions the full genetic repertoire is needed.

sounds to me like an erronious assumption or
unsupportable claim.

if you know what genes/mutations are involved
then there's nothing keeping those from being
included in other seeds. i think GM technology
is heading that direction.

we have ancient seed lines to work with if
we need them.

there's nothing which prevents further mutations
from happening or other changes to be introduced
as needed. at least in theory...


The
repertoire that was lost because of selective breeding. Why would one
think that breeding humans would be any different?

we don't breed humans as much as we breed
other animals or plants, but that is likely
to change.

anywys, the basic human stock of DNA is
already sequenced in several ways, and more
copies are already being collected and
compared and worked with.

i don't think there is any danger of that
being "lost" as long as there is some kind of
technical society left to understand the meaning
of the sequences.

an active designed with a vast store of
knowledge and sequences is unlikely to worry
about losing something.

tell me what can be lost?

here is only one example of information
being collected:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...ncing-science/

i'm pretty sure it is not the only one...


songbird

In article ,
songbird wrote:

Billy wrote:
...
The point that you seem to be dancing around is that modern cultivars
have lost much of their genetic diversity, and to breed new cultivars to
resist present conditions the full genetic repertoire is needed.

sounds to me like an erronious assumption or
unsupportable claim.

if you know what genes/mutations are involved
then there's nothing keeping those from being
included in other seeds. i think GM technology
is heading that direction.

we have ancient seed lines to work with if
we need them.

there's nothing which prevents further mutations
from happening or other changes to be introduced
as needed. at least in theory...


The
repertoire that was lost because of selective breeding. Why would one
think that breeding humans would be any different?

we don't breed humans as much as we breed
other animals or plants, but that is likely
to change.

anywys, the basic human stock of DNA is
already sequenced in several ways, and more
copies are already being collected and
compared and worked with.

i don't think there is any danger of that
being "lost" as long as there is some kind of
technical society left to understand the meaning
of the sequences.

an active designed with a vast store of
knowledge and sequences is unlikely to worry
about losing something.

tell me what can be lost?

here is only one example of information
being collected:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...smithsonian-dn
a-sequencing-science/

i'm pretty sure it is not the only one...


songbird

Ah yes, in that great rising up morning, bye and bye, when we know
everything, then nothing will be too hard for humanity to fix. It will
be wonderful.

In the meantime, we walk in the dark, barking our shins on coffee
tables, and running into walls.


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...ths-species-8-
7-million-biology-planet-animals-science/
--
Palestinian Child Detained
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzSzH38jYcg

Remember Rachel Corrie
http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

Welcome to the New America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg

Billy wrote:
....
Ah yes, in that great rising up morning, bye and bye, when we know
everything, then nothing will be too hard for humanity to fix. It will
be wonderful.

In the meantime, we walk in the dark, barking our shins on coffee
tables, and running into walls.

....

well then tell me, what would you do knowing that in
some number of years the planet earth, the sun and most
of the local system will be gone or uninhabitable?

do you think that we are stuck on this planet forever
without recourse?

Mr. Fukuoka and his natural farming would say that
we are not meant to know nature, that science is
useless, that nature is perfect, etc. to be happy is
to be a farmer and doing as little as possible.
which is a nice way to go for some, but others like
to engineer and design and tinker. why is the way
of the tinker outlawed in nature?

yes, i know that only so much can be changed at a
time if nature is to continue in some forms and still
be able to function. i'm not talking about obliterating
nature or any species that currently exist. i just
wonder where those concerned about nature and sustainable
agriculture can find some common ground with the makers
and designers.

anyways, those are the thoughts of today...

in other news, got some of the turnip seeds and
buckwheat seeds scattered and watered in. starting
also to get tomatoes turning color. the weather this
week is forecast sunny, sunny, sunny and getting
warmer. so we'll have a chance of it. will have
to water.


cheers,


songbird

In article ,
songbird wrote:

Billy wrote:
...
Ah yes, in that great rising up morning, bye and bye, when we know
everything, then nothing will be too hard for humanity to fix. It will
be wonderful.

In the meantime, we walk in the dark, barking our shins on coffee
tables, and running into walls.

...

well then tell me,

Try and stop me ;O)

what would you do knowing that in
some number of years the planet earth, the sun and most
of the local system will be gone or uninhabitable?

Planning ahead is a good thing, but looking out some 5 billion years
might be pushing the envelope some.

What are you going to do in a few years when you're gone, or non-viable?
(I'll sign a petition, if you like. ;O)

do you think that we are stuck on this planet forever
without recourse?

The trouble with going away is where ever you go, there you are.

I've never really felt "stuck" on this planet, even if there is no way
for me to walk home.


Mr. Fukuoka and his natural farming would say that
we are not meant to know nature, that science is
useless, that nature is perfect, etc. to be happy is
to be a farmer and doing as little as possible.

Mr. Fukuoka is a wise man. You have your family and friends with
barbecues, and cheating at cards afterwards, on the week-ends. There are
the plants, and animals to know, and the smell that comes after the
rain, the flowers of spring, tending the garden, a cooling swim on a hot
day, stars to look at, the colors of harvest, the migrating geese, the
sound of rain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6OhIZODLDs

which is a nice way to go for some, but others like
to engineer and design and tinker. why is the way
of the tinker outlawed in nature?

It is?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_cognition#Tool_and_weapon_use

I doubt that people could be prevented from tinkering whether it's
crating and transporting fire, or making a sharp edge, or peering over
the edge of the Standard Model to see what else is out there.

yes, i know that only so much can be changed at a
time if nature is to continue in some forms and still
be able to function. i'm not talking about obliterating
nature or any species that currently exist. i just
wonder where those concerned about nature and sustainable
agriculture can find some common ground with the makers
and designers.

I don't see a contradiction, as long as I don't have to eat their
experiments before they are proved to be safe. But what of the day when
people only exist in the conceptual reality between their ears, as
"tweakers" do, and that "consciousness" can be transferred to a chip
(solid state drive) in a mechanical, inorganic, ageless being. The day
that humanity leaves nature behind.

Then we can talk about whether life is worth saving.


anyways, those are the thoughts of today...

in other news, got some of the turnip seeds and
buckwheat seeds scattered and watered in. starting
also to get tomatoes turning color. the weather this
week is forecast sunny, sunny, sunny and getting
warmer. so we'll have a chance of it. will have
to water.


cheers,


songbird

The squash has arrived in all its glory. One zucca, and one crookneck
are producing all we can eat, and the zuchs haven't started yet. The
cucumbers and lettuce are starting to hit their pace. We have tomatoes
most of the week, but it's only the nose of the camel. The peppers have
been sporadic, but now the heat is on us again, after a 6 week departure.
Our weather guesser keeps forecasting 80s F, and we keep getting 90s F.

Work starts in about 2 weeks, and I'm hustling to finish up my projects.

The thunder from the YouTube video posted above reminds me that it's too
bad those inorganic beings of the future aren't here yet. Chili beans
for dinner tonight, with the usual reaction products expected tomorrow.
;O)


"To forget how to dig the earth and to tend the soil is to forget
ourselves."
- Mahatma Gandhi
--
Palestinian Child Detained
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzSzH38jYcg

Remember Rachel Corrie
http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

Welcome to the New America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg

Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
...
Ah yes, in that great rising up morning, bye and bye, when we know
everything, then nothing will be too hard for humanity to fix. It will
be wonderful.

In the meantime, we walk in the dark, barking our shins on coffee
tables, and running into walls.

...

well then tell me,

Try and stop me ;O)

har!


what would you do knowing that in
some number of years the planet earth, the sun and most
of the local system will be gone or uninhabitable?

Planning ahead is a good thing, but looking out some 5 billion years
might be pushing the envelope some.

yes, but perhaps it's not 5 billion years ahead
when we face a planet busting asteriod that we
can't detect or dodge or the next ice-age (but
perhaps global warming will be good for something
after all)...

so you're answer so far is "do nothing" too?


What are you going to do in a few years when you're gone, or non-viable?
(I'll sign a petition, if you like. ;O)

if you like signing petitions and putting some
action behind it try the one at the National
Geographic newswatch website for restoring water
flow to the Colorado River Delta. also, Sandra
Postel and others have plenty of interesting
articles/reading at the Water Currents section.

as for me, not sure yet, the worms and other
soil critters get to digest me, beyond that i'm
not decided yet because a lot depends upon if i
stay here or move someplace else. the older i
get the more likely i'm not going to have the
energy to start all over again from scratch, but
that is what i would really like to do.


do you think that we are stuck on this planet forever
without recourse?

The trouble with going away is where ever you go, there you are.

i've always been happy with my own company.


I've never really felt "stuck" on this planet, even if there is no way
for me to walk home.

i don't feel stuck, but we are near the bottom of
a deep gravity well which costs a lot to escape.
it may not be stuck, but it's darned close if we
have to get away quick.

the question to be answered at present is if
humans can transfer enough of our environment to
another closed system (space-ship, colony on the
moon, mars, or asteroid) so that it can be self-
sustaining. if we cannot figure that out then we
are stuck or we must change to a different form which
does not require such an extensive support
environment.


Mr. Fukuoka and his natural farming would say that
we are not meant to know nature, that science is
useless, that nature is perfect, etc. to be happy is
to be a farmer and doing as little as possible.

Mr. Fukuoka is a wise man. You have your family and friends with
barbecues, and cheating at cards afterwards, on the week-ends. There are
the plants, and animals to know, and the smell that comes after the
rain, the flowers of spring, tending the garden, a cooling swim on a hot
day, stars to look at, the colors of harvest, the migrating geese, the
sound of rain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6OhIZODLDs

his form of happiness is not universal. not
everyone wants to be a farmer. some people find
their happiness in discovery or in other artistic
ways.

no matter what it doesn't get us into space
before lights out.


which is a nice way to go for some, but others like
to engineer and design and tinker. why is the way
of the tinker outlawed in nature?

It is?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_cognition#Tool_and_weapon_use

I doubt that people could be prevented from tinkering whether it's
crating and transporting fire, or making a sharp edge, or peering over
the edge of the Standard Model to see what else is out there.

yep, so he's not so wise after all?

one of his claims in the book of his i just
re-read (natural farming methods) was that the
earth could support 60 times the population
(around 5 billion when he wrote) if it would
eat grains and vegetables. can you imagine our
world of 300 billion people? even if you strip
things down to very basic support for water and
calories and force everyone under ground i still
don't think the earth can support that many of
us and still have wild areas. already we see
limits based upon fresh water availability for
the 7 billion and the future is looking very
interesting already just at this level of
ecosystem disruption and exploitation...


yes, i know that only so much can be changed at a
time if nature is to continue in some forms and still
be able to function. i'm not talking about obliterating
nature or any species that currently exist. i just
wonder where those concerned about nature and sustainable
agriculture can find some common ground with the makers
and designers.

I don't see a contradiction, as long as I don't have to eat their
experiments before they are proved to be safe.

while i agree with the general sentiment, previously
there were (and still are) plenty of things in the world
that are not safe to eat, yet we abide.

i'm looking forwards to the day when we know a lot
more about GMOs in food crops.


But what of the day when
people only exist in the conceptual reality between their ears, as
"tweakers" do, and that "consciousness" can be transferred to a chip
(solid state drive) in a mechanical, inorganic, ageless being. The day
that humanity leaves nature behind.

Then we can talk about whether life is worth saving.

enough people would argue it is no longer life
anyways (the current ancients complain that their
children don't have much of a life as it is and
i'm ancient enough that i see their point).


anyways, those are the thoughts of today...

in other news, got some of the turnip seeds and
buckwheat seeds scattered and watered in. starting
also to get tomatoes turning color. the weather this
week is forecast sunny, sunny, sunny and getting
warmer. so we'll have a chance of it. will have
to water.

The squash has arrived in all its glory. One zucca, and one crookneck
are producing all we can eat, and the zuchs haven't started yet. The
cucumbers and lettuce are starting to hit their pace. We have tomatoes
most of the week, but it's only the nose of the camel. The peppers have
been sporadic, but now the heat is on us again, after a 6 week departure.
Our weather guesser keeps forecasting 80s F, and we keep getting 90s F.

funny. we might hit 90 next week.

our own bit of humour is that we have cherry tomatoes
that are yellow to golden colored, i've been waiting for
them to get red... that is what happens when you plant
mystery tomato plants. we sure don't need six cherry
tomato plants (for two people). they will go into the
mix when canning juice for sure, and salsa if we make
any this season.


Work starts in about 2 weeks, and I'm hustling to finish up my projects.

don't freak out! deep breaths, in, out, slowly,
there ya go...


The thunder from the YouTube video posted above reminds me that it's too
bad those inorganic beings of the future aren't here yet. Chili beans
for dinner tonight, with the usual reaction products expected tomorrow.
;O)

simulations are often a necessary step in understanding
any suitably complex system.


"To forget how to dig the earth and to tend the soil is to forget
ourselves."
- Mahatma Gandhi

no-till wasn't popular then. there's a bit in
_Seven Years in Tibet_ which we enjoyed when they
were building the movie theatre and the people
digging would not dig any more until they found a
way to rescue each worm uncovered.


songbird

In article ,
songbird wrote:

Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
...
Ah yes, in that great rising up morning, bye and bye, when we know
everything, then nothing will be too hard for humanity to fix. It will
be wonderful.

In the meantime, we walk in the dark, barking our shins on coffee
tables, and running into walls.

...

well then tell me,

Try and stop me ;O)

har!


what would you do knowing that in
some number of years the planet earth, the sun and most
of the local system will be gone or uninhabitable?

Planning ahead is a good thing, but looking out some 5 billion years
might be pushing the envelope some.

yes, but perhaps it's not 5 billion years ahead
when we face a planet busting asteriod that we
can't detect or dodge or the next ice-age (but
perhaps global warming will be good for something
after all)...

so you're answer so far is "do nothing" too?

You taking lessons from tx.guns now? They love to tell you that you said
something (that you didn't), and then disprove it in they own,
inimitable, logic free fashion.

Seems that's where you'd be going after saying that perhaps global
warming will be good for something. I doubt that it will be good for the
starving, homeless refugees.


What are you going to do in a few years when you're gone, or non-viable?
(I'll sign a petition, if you like. ;O)

if you like signing petitions and putting some
action behind it try the one at the National
Geographic newswatch website for restoring water
flow to the Colorado River Delta. also, Sandra
Postel and others have plenty of interesting
articles/reading at the Water Currents section.

You want to kill Arizona's golf courses? TERRORIST!
It's a job killer.

as for me, not sure yet, the worms and other
soil critters get to digest me, beyond that i'm
not decided yet because a lot depends upon if i
stay here or move someplace else. the older i
get the more likely i'm not going to have the
energy to start all over again from scratch, but
that is what i would really like to do.

I'll probably be moving soon too. I hate to leave this hill, but we're
getting too old to live on a slope. Living on the flat makes so many
things easier.


do you think that we are stuck on this planet forever
without recourse?

The trouble with going away is where ever you go, there you are.

i've always been happy with my own company.


I've never really felt "stuck" on this planet, even if there is no way
for me to walk home.

i don't feel stuck, but we are near the bottom of
a deep gravity well which costs a lot to escape.
it may not be stuck, but it's darned close if we
have to get away quick.

the question to be answered at present is if
humans can transfer enough of our environment to
another closed system (space-ship, colony on the
moon, mars, or asteroid) so that it can be self-
sustaining. if we cannot figure that out then we
are stuck or we must change to a different form which
does not require such an extensive support
environment.

When you consider how much we (Homidea) have changed in the last 2
million years, if we are still around when the Sun goes "red giant" I'd
be surprised if we recognized our descendants.


Mr. Fukuoka and his natural farming would say that
we are not meant to know nature, that science is
useless, that nature is perfect, etc. to be happy is
to be a farmer and doing as little as possible.

Mr. Fukuoka is a wise man. You have your family and friends with
barbecues, and cheating at cards afterwards, on the week-ends. There are
the plants, and animals to know, and the smell that comes after the
rain, the flowers of spring, tending the garden, a cooling swim on a hot
day, stars to look at, the colors of harvest, the migrating geese, the
sound of rain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6OhIZODLDs

his form of happiness is not universal. not
everyone wants to be a farmer. some people find
their happiness in discovery or in other artistic
ways.

The Calvinist "work-ethic" can be over come.


no matter what it doesn't get us into space
before lights out.

Relax, your descendants may yet be able to transport to the star of
their choice, and tomorrow's science will indeed look like today's magic.


which is a nice way to go for some, but others like
to engineer and design and tinker. why is the way
of the tinker outlawed in nature?

It is?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_cognition#Tool_and_weapon_use

I doubt that people could be prevented from tinkering whether it's
crating and transporting fire, or making a sharp edge, or peering over
the edge of the Standard Model to see what else is out there.

yep, so he's not so wise after all?

We call it diversity. Life doesn't give me meaning. I give meaning to
life. YMMV

one of his claims in the book of his i just
re-read (natural farming methods) was that the
earth could support 60 times the population
(around 5 billion when he wrote) if it would
eat grains and vegetables. can you imagine our
world of 300 billion people? even if you strip
things down to very basic support for water and
calories and force everyone under ground i still
don't think the earth can support that many of
us and still have wild areas. already we see
limits based upon fresh water availability for
the 7 billion and the future is looking very
interesting already just at this level of
ecosystem disruption and exploitation...


yes, i know that only so much can be changed at a
time if nature is to continue in some forms and still
be able to function. i'm not talking about obliterating
nature or any species that currently exist. i just
wonder where those concerned about nature and sustainable
agriculture can find some common ground with the makers
and designers.

I don't see a contradiction, as long as I don't have to eat their
experiments before they are proved to be safe.

while i agree with the general sentiment, previously
there were (and still are) plenty of things in the world
that are not safe to eat, yet we abide.

That's why provenance has given us a liver, but it only protects against
what already exists, not the new toxin on the block.

i'm looking forwards to the day when we know a lot
more about GMOs in food crops.

I'll take that in a good way, and not when we find out what they may
have done to us.


But what of the day when
people only exist in the conceptual reality between their ears, as
"tweakers" do, and that "consciousness" can be transferred to a chip
(solid state drive) in a mechanical, inorganic, ageless being. The day
that humanity leaves nature behind.

Then we can talk about whether life is worth saving.

enough people would argue it is no longer life
anyways (the current ancients complain that their
children don't have much of a life as it is and
i'm ancient enough that i see their point).

The way I heard it is that there are hieroglyphics on the pyramids that
say that the world is going to hell in a hand basket, and it is proven
by the behavior of the young.


anyways, those are the thoughts of today...

in other news, got some of the turnip seeds and
buckwheat seeds scattered and watered in. starting
also to get tomatoes turning color. the weather this
week is forecast sunny, sunny, sunny and getting
warmer. so we'll have a chance of it. will have
to water.

The squash has arrived in all its glory. One zucca, and one crookneck
are producing all we can eat, and the zuchs haven't started yet. The
cucumbers and lettuce are starting to hit their pace. We have tomatoes
most of the week, but it's only the nose of the camel. The peppers have
been sporadic, but now the heat is on us again, after a 6 week departure.
Our weather guesser keeps forecasting 80s F, and we keep getting 90s F.

funny. we might hit 90 next week.

So are we, but if the weather gueser is true to form, it will closer to
100F.

our own bit of humour is that we have cherry tomatoes
that are yellow to golden colored, i've been waiting for
them to get red... that is what happens when you plant
mystery tomato plants. we sure don't need six cherry
tomato plants (for two people). they will go into the
mix when canning juice for sure, and salsa if we make
any this season.


Work starts in about 2 weeks, and I'm hustling to finish up my projects.

What a Pollyanna I am. Work starts Tue. at 9AM. So many projects still
to finish. I hope they have the AC cranked up.

don't freak out! deep breaths, in, out, slowly,
there ya go...

In this heat, it is more like panting ;O) The peppers are loving it
though.


The thunder from the YouTube video posted above reminds me that it's too
bad those inorganic beings of the future aren't here yet. Chili beans
for dinner tonight, with the usual reaction products expected tomorrow.
;O)

simulations are often a necessary step in understanding
any suitably complex system.

Prediction confirmed;O)


"To forget how to dig the earth and to tend the soil is to forget
ourselves."
- Mahatma Gandhi

To be fair, he did say "dig".

no-till wasn't popular then. there's a bit in
_Seven Years in Tibet_ which we enjoyed when they
were building the movie theatre and the people
digging would not dig any more until they found a
way to rescue each worm uncovered.

Oh, were the Jainists putting them on again? What a sense of humor.
Maybe they should have hired Confucianists.


songbird
--
Palestinian Child Detained
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzSzH38jYcg

Remember Rachel Corrie
http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

Welcome to the New America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg

Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
...
Ah yes, in that great rising up morning, bye and bye, when we know
everything, then nothing will be too hard for humanity to fix. It will
be wonderful.

In the meantime, we walk in the dark, barking our shins on coffee
tables, and running into walls.

...

well then tell me,

Try and stop me ;O)

har!


what would you do knowing that in
some number of years the planet earth, the sun and most
of the local system will be gone or uninhabitable?

Planning ahead is a good thing, but looking out some 5 billion years
might be pushing the envelope some.

yes, but perhaps it's not 5 billion years ahead
when we face a planet busting asteriod that we
can't detect or dodge or the next ice-age (but
perhaps global warming will be good for something
after all)...

so you're answer so far is "do nothing" too?

You taking lessons from tx.guns now? They love to tell you that you said
something (that you didn't), and then disprove it in they own,
inimitable, logic free fashion.

when you've had two chances to answer a
direct question and wander around it yet
again?


Seems that's where you'd be going after saying that perhaps global
warming will be good for something. I doubt that it will be good for the
starving, homeless refugees.

if an ice-age started in the next 30 years?
if the one offset the other?

perhaps there will not be the disruption and
refugees?

if we get hit by the cosmic/comet lotto the
whole exercise may become rather moot.


What are you going to do in a few years when you're gone, or non-viable?
(I'll sign a petition, if you like. ;O)

if you like signing petitions and putting some
action behind it try the one at the National
Geographic newswatch website for restoring water
flow to the Colorado River Delta. also, Sandra
Postel and others have plenty of interesting
articles/reading at the Water Currents section.

You want to kill Arizona's golf courses? TERRORIST!
It's a job killer.

if the golf courses were supplied with recycled
water and if they didn't use *cides i wouldn't say
much about them. better yet, if they were mowed
with sheep and green energy lawn mowers, then my
opposition goes down even further. i'm no big fan
of dead spaces and wasted water or energy, but in
contrast that green space may be less negative
impact on an area than leaving it as pavement,
parking lot or bare roof tops. if we could take
advantage of that green space (in the roughs and
the other edges) to provide habitat for bees and
other wildlife then we might actually gain some
level beyond what is liable to happen in an
otherwise arid region. take it up another notch
to using the space as a provider of green manure,
fodder, fruits, veggies and open to the poor for
free then you've got a bit more of my support.


the bad news:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...ater-scarcity/


and some good news:

http://environment.nationalgeographi...bazaar--india/


as for me, not sure yet, the worms and other
soil critters get to digest me, beyond that i'm
not decided yet because a lot depends upon if i
stay here or move someplace else. the older i
get the more likely i'm not going to have the
energy to start all over again from scratch, but
that is what i would really like to do.

I'll probably be moving soon too. I hate to leave this hill, but we're
getting too old to live on a slope. Living on the flat makes so many
things easier.

i hope you can find a good place to be.


do you think that we are stuck on this planet forever
without recourse?

The trouble with going away is where ever you go, there you are.

i've always been happy with my own company.


I've never really felt "stuck" on this planet, even if there is no way
for me to walk home.

i don't feel stuck, but we are near the bottom of
a deep gravity well which costs a lot to escape.
it may not be stuck, but it's darned close if we
have to get away quick.

the question to be answered at present is if
humans can transfer enough of our environment to
another closed system (space-ship, colony on the
moon, mars, or asteroid) so that it can be self-
sustaining. if we cannot figure that out then we
are stuck or we must change to a different form which
does not require such an extensive support
environment.

When you consider how much we (Homidea) have changed in the last 2
million years, if we are still around when the Sun goes "red giant" I'd
be surprised if we recognized our descendants.

my guess is we'll have split into thousands of
new variants by then. some recognisable and others
not.


Mr. Fukuoka and his natural farming would say that
we are not meant to know nature, that science is
useless, that nature is perfect, etc. to be happy is
to be a farmer and doing as little as possible.

Mr. Fukuoka is a wise man. You have your family and friends with
barbecues, and cheating at cards afterwards, on the week-ends. There are
the plants, and animals to know, and the smell that comes after the
rain, the flowers of spring, tending the garden, a cooling swim on a hot
day, stars to look at, the colors of harvest, the migrating geese, the
sound of rain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6OhIZODLDs

his form of happiness is not universal. not
everyone wants to be a farmer. some people find
their happiness in discovery or in other artistic
ways.

The Calvinist "work-ethic" can be over come.

Calvinist or Protestant?

i've actually done a decent job of it myself.
at a fairly young age i decided i wanted off the
common treadmill and made consistent choices
after that to get there. i made the leap off
at age 33.5


no matter what it doesn't get us into space
before lights out.

Relax, your descendants may yet be able to transport to the star of
their choice, and tomorrow's science will indeed look like today's magic.

no decendents of me. i'm a genetic dead end.


which is a nice way to go for some, but others like
to engineer and design and tinker. why is the way
of the tinker outlawed in nature?

It is?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_cognition#Tool_and_weapon_use

I doubt that people could be prevented from tinkering whether it's
crating and transporting fire, or making a sharp edge, or peering over
the edge of the Standard Model to see what else is out there.

yep, so he's not so wise after all?

We call it diversity. Life doesn't give me meaning. I give meaning to
life. YMMV

like many i would like to think that i provide
meaning too, but a hundred years from now the
likelyhood of being remembered or understood is
faint. so i don't get a big head.


one of his claims in the book of his i just
re-read (natural farming methods) was that the
earth could support 60 times the population
(around 5 billion when he wrote) if it would
eat grains and vegetables. can you imagine our
world of 300 billion people? even if you strip
things down to very basic support for water and
calories and force everyone under ground i still
don't think the earth can support that many of
us and still have wild areas. already we see
limits based upon fresh water availability for
the 7 billion and the future is looking very
interesting already just at this level of
ecosystem disruption and exploitation...


yes, i know that only so much can be changed at a
time if nature is to continue in some forms and still
be able to function. i'm not talking about obliterating
nature or any species that currently exist. i just
wonder where those concerned about nature and sustainable
agriculture can find some common ground with the makers
and designers.

I don't see a contradiction, as long as I don't have to eat their
experiments before they are proved to be safe.

while i agree with the general sentiment, previously
there were (and still are) plenty of things in the world
that are not safe to eat, yet we abide.

That's why provenance has given us a liver, but it only protects against
what already exists, not the new toxin on the block.

always a good idea to let someone else go
first. "yeah, you eat all those GMOs you
want and i'll try to avoid them and keep an
eye peeled for toxic effects in you and your
children."


i'm looking forwards to the day when we know a lot
more about GMOs in food crops.

I'll take that in a good way, and not when we find out what they may
have done to us.

yes, i sure hope it works out ok, that we've not
crossed some point of no return.


But what of the day when
people only exist in the conceptual reality between their ears, as
"tweakers" do, and that "consciousness" can be transferred to a chip
(solid state drive) in a mechanical, inorganic, ageless being. The day
that humanity leaves nature behind.

Then we can talk about whether life is worth saving.

enough people would argue it is no longer life
anyways (the current ancients complain that their
children don't have much of a life as it is and
i'm ancient enough that i see their point).

The way I heard it is that there are hieroglyphics on the pyramids that
say that the world is going to hell in a hand basket, and it is proven
by the behavior of the young.

haha, that would be funny indeed.


anyways, those are the thoughts of today...

in other news, got some of the turnip seeds and
buckwheat seeds scattered and watered in. starting
also to get tomatoes turning color. the weather this
week is forecast sunny, sunny, sunny and getting
warmer. so we'll have a chance of it. will have
to water.

The squash has arrived in all its glory. One zucca, and one crookneck
are producing all we can eat, and the zuchs haven't started yet. The
cucumbers and lettuce are starting to hit their pace. We have tomatoes
most of the week, but it's only the nose of the camel. The peppers have
been sporadic, but now the heat is on us again, after a 6 week departure.
Our weather guesser keeps forecasting 80s F, and we keep getting 90s F.

funny. we might hit 90 next week.

So are we, but if the weather gueser is true to form, it will closer to
100F.

today was a prime example. forecast to go into the
mid 80s, but it didn't make it to 80. still the
sunshine is appreciated. gotta water some bit every
day to keep everything happy. better to spread it
out so that we don't have to draw on the well so
heavily at any one time.


our own bit of humour is that we have cherry tomatoes
that are yellow to golden colored, i've been waiting for
them to get red... that is what happens when you plant
mystery tomato plants. we sure don't need six cherry
tomato plants (for two people). they will go into the
mix when canning juice for sure, and salsa if we make
any this season.


Work starts in about 2 weeks, and I'm hustling to finish up my projects.

What a Pollyanna I am. Work starts Tue. at 9AM. So many projects still
to finish. I hope they have the AC cranked up.

get your pipettes ready!


don't freak out! deep breaths, in, out, slowly,
there ya go...

In this heat, it is more like panting ;O) The peppers are loving it
though.

yes, the peppers are coming along well here too.

finally was able to pick about 10lbs of tomatoes
today. some BER in the smaller romas that were
developing about a month ago in that heat wave we
had. this round of heat there is much more cover
and mulch to help.


The thunder from the YouTube video posted above reminds me that it's too
bad those inorganic beings of the future aren't here yet. Chili beans
for dinner tonight, with the usual reaction products expected tomorrow.
;O)

simulations are often a necessary step in understanding
any suitably complex system.

Prediction confirmed;O)

my condolences to all affected.

ever since we started growing more dry beans
i've gradually increased fiber and while it has
special moments of regret the overall improvement
is well worth it.


"To forget how to dig the earth and to tend the soil is to forget
ourselves."
- Mahatma Gandhi

To be fair, he did say "dig".

i can dig it.


no-till wasn't popular then. there's a bit in
_Seven Years in Tibet_ which we enjoyed when they
were building the movie theatre and the people
digging would not dig any more until they found a
way to rescue each worm uncovered.

Oh, were the Jainists putting them on again? What a sense of humor.
Maybe they should have hired Confucianists.

just a movie, but amusing anyways as it happened
we first watched it when i was starting with the
small scale worm farm.


songbird

In article ,
songbird wrote:

Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
...
Ah yes, in that great rising up morning, bye and bye, when we know
everything, then nothing will be too hard for humanity to fix. It
will
be wonderful.

In the meantime, we walk in the dark, barking our shins on coffee
tables, and running into walls.

...

well then tell me,

Try and stop me ;O)

har!


what would you do knowing that in
some number of years the planet earth, the sun and most
of the local system will be gone or uninhabitable?

Planning ahead is a good thing, but looking out some 5 billion years
might be pushing the envelope some.

yes, but perhaps it's not 5 billion years ahead
when we face a planet busting asteriod that we
can't detect or dodge or the next ice-age (but
perhaps global warming will be good for something
after all)...

so you're answer so far is "do nothing" too?

You taking lessons from tx.guns now? They love to tell you that you said
something (that you didn't), and then disprove it in they own,
inimitable, logic free fashion.

when you've had two chances to answer a
direct question and wander around it yet
again?

You've projected a self-serving answer into a question that on its merit
is, at best, a rhetorical question. Bottom feeders will also tell you
that a smile is implied consent. Debating the point while your being
raped seems, somehow, pointless.

You want a straight answer to your silly question? (And the peanut
gallery moans.) The best thing we can do about the Sun going to a red
giant in 5 BILLION YEARS is to stay alive for the event. That represents
staying alive for 2,500 times longer than our Family, Hominidea, or
25,000 times longer than our species, Homo sapiens, has existed.

As you say, I'm happy playing in the mud, but bends in the road have
always held a fascination for me.

Western science lost a 1000 years with the fall of Rome. Given the
increase in information, I would expect our species to be doing some
impressive manipulation of space and time within a couple of hundred
years, IF baser human instincts like greed can be reined in. Our
greatest threat is from our selves. Ever see that experiment where they
put a couple of rats in a large cage, and then let nature take its
course? Over population drove the rats crazy. Some went catatonic. Some
chewed on themselves, and most just became aggressive.

Ice Age canceling Dante's Inferno? Let's look at the science.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...culation-may-h
ave-released-co2-at-end-of-ice-ages
At the end of each ice age, the ocean exhales carbon dioxide. Scientists
believe this explains the difference in atmospheric CO2 concentrations
between

ice ages, which have lower concentrations of carbon dioxide, and

warmer, more CO2-saturated periods like the one we're living in now.
-----

I'm sure you know that even if we stop burning fossil fuel now, it will
take some hundreds of years, with present technology, to return to 390
ppm CO2.
-----

A comet collision, a MASSIVE volcanic eruption, or a nuclear war could
throw enough particulate matter high enough into the atmosphere to block
the sun, perhaps for decades, and give us an ice age, and there would
also be human suffering on an unimaginable scale.

What do you see as triggering this joyous convergence of Ice Age/Inferno?




Seems that's where you'd be going after saying that perhaps global
warming will be good for something. I doubt that it will be good for the
starving, homeless refugees.

if an ice-age started in the next 30 years?
if the one offset the other?

perhaps there will not be the disruption and
refugees?

if we get hit by the cosmic/comet lotto the
whole exercise may become rather moot.

Yes, with a bang or a whimper, in fire or in ice, we all die, some,
damned, inconvenient day.

You may get hit in the cross walk. There are no guarantees, the best you
can do is to minimize risk, which we aren't doing.

On a daily basis, the best I can do for the world is to keep a few
hundred sq. ft. of soil alive, buy organic, buy locally, and try to find
a politician who isn't a corporation whore to vote for.


What are you going to do in a few years when you're gone, or non-viable?
(I'll sign a petition, if you like. ;O)

if you like signing petitions and putting some
action behind it try the one at the National
Geographic website for restoring water
flow to the Colorado River Delta. also, Sandra
Postel and others have plenty of interesting
articles/reading at the Water Currents section.

I see being facetious with you is a lost cause. Petitions are are near
worthless. If you're not out in the street making a nuisance of
yourself, nothing will happen. Beat those pots, and block those
intersections.

You want to kill Arizona's golf courses? TERRORIST!
It's a job killer.

if the golf courses were supplied with recycled
water and if they didn't use *cides i wouldn't say
much about them. better yet, if they were mowed
with sheep and green energy lawn mowers, then my
opposition goes down even further. i'm no big fan
of dead spaces and wasted water or energy, but in
contrast that green space may be less negative
impact on an area than leaving it as pavement,
parking lot or bare roof tops. if we could take
advantage of that green space (in the roughs and
the other edges) to provide habitat for bees and
other wildlife then we might actually gain some
level beyond what is liable to happen in an
otherwise arid region. take it up another notch
to using the space as a provider of green manure,
fodder, fruits, veggies and open to the poor for
free then you've got a bit more of my support.

Do you know what the temp is today in Phoenix? 107F. What grows well in
100F+ heat, bird? You gonna give the sheep T-shirts and caps to wear?

The area also sucks up fossil-fuel-made electricity for AC. There are
better uses for Colorado River water, and Global Warming coal fires. Use
the resources sensibly and return Phoenix to the "snow birds".


the bad news:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...o-river-drough
t-lake-powell-mead-water-scarcity/
Freshwater sources around the world have been used at rates faster than
they can replenish themselves. Pipelines for freshwater from Canada or
Greenland make more sense than KeystoneXL.


and some good news:

http://environment.nationalgeographi...er/l/lessons-f
rom-the-field-rainwater-harvesting-in-hiware-bazaar--india/

Rationing may make sense to you or me, but Capitalism wants to turn
water into a commodity, i.e. you get what you can afford. Can't afford
it it? Tough!

Watch the Guardians of Privilege come out to fight this.


as for me, not sure yet, the worms and other
soil critters get to digest me, beyond that i'm
not decided yet because a lot depends upon if i
stay here or move someplace else. the older i
get the more likely i'm not going to have the
energy to start all over again from scratch, but
that is what i would really like to do.

I'll probably be moving soon too. I hate to leave this hill, but we're
getting too old to live on a slope. Living on the flat makes so many
things easier.

i hope you can find a good place to be.

We won't go far. We can go to the boonies, if need be. Back roads aren't
as bad as the freeways around here.


do you think that we are stuck on this planet forever
without recourse?

The trouble with going away is where ever you go, there you are.

i've always been happy with my own company.


I've never really felt "stuck" on this planet, even if there is no way
for me to walk home.

i don't feel stuck, but we are near the bottom of
a deep gravity well which costs a lot to escape.
it may not be stuck, but it's darned close if we
have to get away quick.

the question to be answered at present is if
humans can transfer enough of our environment to
another closed system (space-ship, colony on the
moon, mars, or asteroid) so that it can be self-
sustaining. if we cannot figure that out then we
are stuck or we must change to a different form which
does not require such an extensive support
environment.

When you consider how much we (Homidea) have changed in the last 2
million years, if we are still around when the Sun goes "red giant" I'd
be surprised if we recognized our descendants.

my guess is we'll have split into thousands of
new variants by then. some recognisable and others
not.

Mammals didn't really get going until after the Chicxulub event, some 66
million years ago. Look how much mammals have changed to take advantage
of the empty niches that the dinosaurs left.


Mr. Fukuoka and his natural farming would say that
we are not meant to know nature, that science is
useless, that nature is perfect, etc. to be happy is
to be a farmer and doing as little as possible.

Mr. Fukuoka is a wise man. You have your family and friends with
barbecues, and cheating at cards afterwards, on the week-ends. There are
the plants, and animals to know, and the smell that comes after the
rain, the flowers of spring, tending the garden, a cooling swim on a hot
day, stars to look at, the colors of harvest, the migrating geese, the
sound of rain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6OhIZODLDs

his form of happiness is not universal. not
everyone wants to be a farmer. some people find
their happiness in discovery or in other artistic
ways.

The Calvinist "work-ethic" can be over come.

Calvinist or Protestant?
All Cavinists are Protestant. I'm not sure if all Protestants are
Calvinist. (I lost interest.) But yes, it normally is cast as the
"Protestant Work Ethic". The belief that if your work was successful,
then you were one of God's chosen. Made most famous by the sociologist
Max Weber in his seminal work,"The Protestant Work Ethic, and the Spirit
of Capitalism".

Calvinism is perfect for those who want to suffer stoically, and
contemptuously.

If you haven't seen it, get Babbette's Feast". It says it all. A
wonderful movie.


i've actually done a decent job of it myself.
at a fairly young age i decided i wanted off the
common treadmill and made consistent choices
after that to get there. i made the leap off
at age 33.5


no matter what it doesn't get us into space
before lights out.

Relax, your descendants may yet be able to transport to the star of
their choice, and tomorrow's science will indeed look like today's magic.

no decendents of me. i'm a genetic dead end.
If more people had that attitude, there would be more hope for humanity.
As it is, it looks like the plutocrates are herding us towards lemming's
leap. I hope you're enjoying the trip, because I think that is all that
there is to it.



which is a nice way to go for some, but others like
to engineer and design and tinker. why is the way
of the tinker outlawed in nature?

It is?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_cognition#Tool_and_weapon_use

I doubt that people could be prevented from tinkering whether it's
crating and transporting fire, or making a sharp edge, or peering over
the edge of the Standard Model to see what else is out there.

yep, so he's not so wise after all?

We call it diversity. Life doesn't give me meaning. I give meaning to
life. YMMV

like many i would like to think that i provide
meaning too, but a hundred years from now the
likelyhood of being remembered or understood is
faint. so i don't get a big head.

Leave Mayayana to the messiahs. Hinayana is all I can deal with.



one of his claims in the book of his i just
re-read (natural farming methods) was that the
earth could support 60 times the population
(around 5 billion when he wrote) if it would
eat grains and vegetables. can you imagine our
world of 300 billion people? even if you strip
things down to very basic support for water and
calories and force everyone under ground i still
don't think the earth can support that many of
us and still have wild areas. already we see
limits based upon fresh water availability for
the 7 billion and the future is looking very
interesting already just at this level of
ecosystem disruption and exploitation...

Let ye among you without typos cast the first stone.



yes, i know that only so much can be changed at a
time if nature is to continue in some forms and still
be able to function. i'm not talking about obliterating
nature or any species that currently exist. i just
wonder where those concerned about nature and sustainable
agriculture can find some common ground with the makers
and designers.

I don't see a contradiction, as long as I don't have to eat their
experiments before they are proved to be safe.

while i agree with the general sentiment, previously
there were (and still are) plenty of things in the world
that are not safe to eat, yet we abide.

That's why provenance has given us a liver, but it only protects against
what already exists, not the new toxin on the block.

always a good idea to let someone else go
first. "yeah, you eat all those GMOs you
want and i'll try to avoid them and keep an
eye peeled for toxic effects in you and your
children."

Too much enthusiasm. I would never recommend for someone to be a guinea
pig. If there is a problem, I trust the government that as been
encouraging us to spend our money to be the test animals for GMO feeding
studies, will step in and offer assistance to those who took their
advice.


i'm looking forwards to the day when we know a lot
more about GMOs in food crops.

I'll take that in a good way, and not when we find out what they may
have done to us.

yes, i sure hope it works out ok, that we've not
crossed some point of no return.


But what of the day when
people only exist in the conceptual reality between their ears, as
"tweakers" do, and that "consciousness" can be transferred to a chip
(solid state drive) in a mechanical, inorganic, ageless being. The day
that humanity leaves nature behind.

Then we can talk about whether life is worth saving.

enough people would argue it is no longer life
anyways (the current ancients complain that their
children don't have much of a life as it is and
i'm ancient enough that i see their point).

The way I heard it is that there are hieroglyphics on the pyramids that
say that the world is going to hell in a hand basket, and it is proven
by the behavior of the young.

haha, that would be funny indeed.


anyways, those are the thoughts of today...

in other news, got some of the turnip seeds and
buckwheat seeds scattered and watered in. starting
also to get tomatoes turning color. the weather this
week is forecast sunny, sunny, sunny and getting
warmer. so we'll have a chance of it. will have
to water.

The squash has arrived in all its glory. One zucca, and one crookneck
are producing all we can eat, and the zuchs haven't started yet. The
cucumbers and lettuce are starting to hit their pace. We have tomatoes
most of the week, but it's only the nose of the camel. The peppers have
been sporadic, but now the heat is on us again, after a 6 week
departure.
Our weather guesser keeps forecasting 80s F, and we keep getting 90s F.

funny. we might hit 90 next week.

So are we, but if the weather gueser is true to form, it will closer to
100F.

today was a prime example. forecast to go into the
mid 80s, but it didn't make it to 80. still the
sunshine is appreciated. gotta water some bit every
day to keep everything happy. better to spread it
out so that we don't have to draw on the well so
heavily at any one time.


our own bit of humour is that we have cherry tomatoes
that are yellow to golden colored, i've been waiting for
them to get red... that is what happens when you plant
mystery tomato plants. we sure don't need six cherry
tomato plants (for two people). they will go into the
mix when canning juice for sure, and salsa if we make
any this season.


Work starts in about 2 weeks, and I'm hustling to finish up my projects.

What a Pollyanna I am. Work starts Tue. at 9AM. So many projects still
to finish. I hope they have the AC cranked up.

get your pipettes ready!

They were calibrated 2 weeks ago. We start of with juice samples, which
is pretty basic, pH, Total Acidty (TA), sugar (by refractometer), and
the accursed potassium. Fun starts when we have wine, AND juice samples.
This is the nobody leaves until all the work is done stage. When
fermentation is over, it quickly becomes "no overtime".


don't freak out! deep breaths, in, out, slowly,
there ya go...

In this heat, it is more like panting ;O) The peppers are loving it
though.

yes, the peppers are coming along well here too.

finally was able to pick about 10lbs of tomatoes
today. some BER in the smaller romas that were
developing about a month ago in that heat wave we
had. this round of heat there is much more cover
and mulch to help.

Most of our tomatoes are still holding back, but we are close.


The thunder from the YouTube video posted above reminds me that it's too
bad those inorganic beings of the future aren't here yet. Chili beans
for dinner tonight, with the usual reaction products expected tomorrow.
;O)

simulations are often a necessary step in understanding
any suitably complex system.

Prediction confirmed;O)

my condolences to all affected.

The survivor thank you for your wishes.


ever since we started growing more dry beans
i've gradually increased fiber and while it has
special moments of regret the overall improvement
is well worth it.


"To forget how to dig the earth and to tend the soil is to forget
ourselves."
- Mahatma Gandhi

To be fair, he did say "dig".

i can dig it.
Mahatma dug it.



no-till wasn't popular then. there's a bit in
_Seven Years in Tibet_ which we enjoyed when they
were building the movie theatre and the people
digging would not dig any more until they found a
way to rescue each worm uncovered.

Oh, were the Jainists putting them on again? What a sense of humor.
Maybe they should have hired Confucianists.

just a movie, but amusing anyways as it happened
we first watched it when i was starting with the
small scale worm farm.


songbird

Probably won't be back 'till the week-end.

Try not to get into trouble without me.
--
Palestinian Child Detained
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzSzH38jYcg

Remember Rachel Corrie
http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

Welcome to the New America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg

Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
...
Ah yes, in that great rising up morning, bye and bye, when we know
everything, then nothing will be too hard for humanity to fix. It
will
be wonderful.

In the meantime, we walk in the dark, barking our shins on coffee
tables, and running into walls.

...

well then tell me,

Try and stop me ;O)

har!


what would you do knowing that in
some number of years the planet earth, the sun and most
of the local system will be gone or uninhabitable?

Planning ahead is a good thing, but looking out some 5 billion years
might be pushing the envelope some.

yes, but perhaps it's not 5 billion years ahead
when we face a planet busting asteriod that we
can't detect or dodge or the next ice-age (but
perhaps global warming will be good for something
after all)...

so you're answer so far is "do nothing" too?

You taking lessons from tx.guns now? They love to tell you that you said
something (that you didn't), and then disprove it in they own,
inimitable, logic free fashion.

when you've had two chances to answer a
direct question and wander around it yet
again?

You've projected a self-serving answer into a question that on its merit
is, at best, a rhetorical question. Bottom feeders will also tell you
that a smile is implied consent. Debating the point while your being
raped seems, somehow, pointless.

You want a straight answer to your silly question? (And the peanut
gallery moans.)

if i dint want an answer i wunt have asked. and
yes, i am interested in your particular take on
what we'd need to do.


The best thing we can do about the Sun going to a red
giant in 5 BILLION YEARS is to stay alive for the event. That represents
staying alive for 2,500 times longer than our Family, Hominidea, or
25,000 times longer than our species, Homo sapiens, has existed.

well, yes, stay alive is a good answer, to survive
as we currently exist, in this form, with all the
faults and foibles... that would be quite a feat.

i just finished reading a book on the Kirtland's
Warbler, by Rappai (or just one p) published this
year. very good, quick read. anyways, they've
managed to survive about 2 million years (through
several ice-ages, massive shifting of breeding
grounds and climates) yet they are very finicky
about their nesting sites (jack pines, not too old,
some clearings, some edges, plenty of space). still
quite the bird.

but anyways, back to the topic at hand. how to
stay alive for long enough, but then also not only
just existing, but being able to still have enough
resources to be able to move on when needed. i
suspect though that to get to that far in the future
without getting hit by a large asteroid or running
out of resources might be too difficult even for a
large-brained mammal... are we meant to be the
builder of the ark to get life beyond this one
planet or are we doomed and all life with us? would
seem a shame to lose such wonders as this planet, but
other planets will have their own wonders too.


As you say, I'm happy playing in the mud, but bends in the road have
always held a fascination for me.

if we didn't like playing in the mud it wouldn't
be much fun.


Western science lost a 1000 years with the fall of Rome. Given the
increase in information, I would expect our species to be doing some
impressive manipulation of space and time within a couple of hundred
years,

yeah, i'd like to sleep for a few hundred years
and wake up to see what's happened.


IF baser human instincts like greed can be reined in. Our
greatest threat is from our selves.

seems like it. and not just at the obvious violent
level, but also at the social organizational level.
if the society gets too saturated with people and
those needs are so great that we never have anything
extra to put into space exploration then we are as
sunk as we'd be if we'd just nuked ourselves or
poisoned ourselves.

that is why i'm a big fan of population control
at some point going even lower in population than
the carrying capacity of the planet (along with me
wanting wild spaces to still exist). it gives a
buffer for using some resources to explore beyond
the planet surface, but also having a lower population
also gives us more room for errors in judging what
the planet can actually support.


Ever see that experiment where they
put a couple of rats in a large cage, and then let nature take its
course? Over population drove the rats crazy. Some went catatonic. Some
chewed on themselves, and most just became aggressive.

i've read different versions of the experiment
and never actually desired to see it happen.
again, population control, self-control is a
requirement for long-term survival. we're not
going to make it if we do not exercise some
sort of discipline with regards to population
and consumption of non-renewable resources.

some sciences can improve what is and isn't
a renewable resource, so i do have some amount
of optimism there (along with digging up and
recycling old dump-sites for metals, glass,
plastics, ...).


Ice Age canceling Dante's Inferno? Let's look at the science.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...culation-may-h
ave-released-co2-at-end-of-ice-ages
At the end of each ice age, the ocean exhales carbon dioxide. Scientists
believe this explains the difference in atmospheric CO2 concentrations
between

ice ages, which have lower concentrations of carbon dioxide, and

warmer, more CO2-saturated periods like the one we're living in now.

an ice age is going to be pretty CO2 limited,
so yes, the oceans will be a source of CO2
replenishment. take away most of the living
ecosystem and a lot of CO2 emissions are
going to disappear too.

the colder water temperatures will put more
gasses in solution, though i think the real
impetus for the ocean giving off more CO2
would be the return of sunlight on the water
so that more algae will grow, that and the
added warmth, the big breathing out...

does all of that ice cause more earth-quakes
and volcanoes in the end? with the poles
getting all of that ice, it might be that the
earth does get more active and in some manner
that helps reverse things again in time.


-----

I'm sure you know that even if we stop burning fossil fuel now, it will
take some hundreds of years, with present technology, to return to 390
ppm CO2.

i don't really know, it depends upon how many
plants we can get going like trees which can soak
up tons of carbon, if we can get many areas of
the planet reforested that may soak up more CO2
than expected. already there is some slight
evidence appearing that plants are already
increasing their absorption of carbon... if we
can stop over-grazing and get areas reforested
and replanted then we can use good land management
to soak up several tons of CO2 per acre per year.
just that we have to stop adding so much more.


-----

A comet collision, a MASSIVE volcanic eruption, or a nuclear war could
throw enough particulate matter high enough into the atmosphere to block
the sun, perhaps for decades, and give us an ice age, and there would
also be human suffering on an unimaginable scale.

true.


What do you see as triggering this joyous convergence of Ice Age/Inferno?

a freaking huge amount of luck.


Seems that's where you'd be going after saying that perhaps global
warming will be good for something. I doubt that it will be good for the
starving, homeless refugees.

if an ice-age started in the next 30 years?
if the one offset the other?

perhaps there will not be the disruption and
refugees?

if we get hit by the cosmic/comet lotto the
whole exercise may become rather moot.

Yes, with a bang or a whimper, in fire or in ice, we all die, some,
damned, inconvenient day.

You may get hit in the cross walk. There are no guarantees, the best you
can do is to minimize risk, which we aren't doing.

i know, that's what irks me, that while the
individual citizen can act faster than the
government to reduce their carbon footprint
we still can't seem to get through to the
policy makers and destroyers that yes indeed we
do want a change large enough to stop the
damage from continuing. i don't see big-oil,
or now, big-gas going away without a fight, so
really we have to put energy into doing things
that will actually soak up CO2 no matter what
else happens. to me that is replanting trees
and putting more carbon in the soil in any
way i can.


On a daily basis, the best I can do for the world is to keep a few
hundred sq. ft. of soil alive, buy organic, buy locally,

ever look for a CSA?


and try to find
a politician who isn't a corporation whore to vote for.

i'm sure there are some, but it's not just corporate
whores that are blocking things but others with views
about "the end-times" or "god's plan". somehow we have
to be able to work around such obstructionists or
delusionists.


What are you going to do in a few years when you're gone, or non-viable?
(I'll sign a petition, if you like. ;O)

if you like signing petitions and putting some
action behind it try the one at the National
Geographic website for restoring water
flow to the Colorado River Delta. also, Sandra
Postel and others have plenty of interesting
articles/reading at the Water Currents section.

I see being facetious with you is a lost cause.

heehee. i do my best to not be distracted by such
things.


Petitions are are near
worthless. If you're not out in the street making a nuisance of
yourself, nothing will happen. Beat those pots, and block those
intersections.

a pledge is worth something if you actually make
a change.

the folks in Boston have made a lot of changes so
it can be done. if folks out west can do similarly
then the water needed can be reduced enough to restore
a flow to the Colorado River Delta, some flow is better
than none (as a few rainy seasons did show).


You want to kill Arizona's golf courses? TERRORIST!
It's a job killer.

if the golf courses were supplied with recycled
water and if they didn't use *cides i wouldn't say
much about them. better yet, if they were mowed
with sheep and green energy lawn mowers, then my
opposition goes down even further. i'm no big fan
of dead spaces and wasted water or energy, but in
contrast that green space may be less negative
impact on an area than leaving it as pavement,
parking lot or bare roof tops. if we could take
advantage of that green space (in the roughs and
the other edges) to provide habitat for bees and
other wildlife then we might actually gain some
level beyond what is liable to happen in an
otherwise arid region. take it up another notch
to using the space as a provider of green manure,
fodder, fruits, veggies and open to the poor for
free then you've got a bit more of my support.

Do you know what the temp is today in Phoenix? 107F. What grows well in
100F+ heat, bird? You gonna give the sheep T-shirts and caps to wear?

they'll be much thinner sheep without as much
fur perhaps. i dunno. yet, i bet it is cooler
on those green spaces than it is on the cement,
parking lots and rooftops.

one of the needed things for permaculture is a
tree that does survive such temperatures to give
shade and protection from dessicating winds and
there are trees that can survive those conditions.
it's not hopeless.


The area also sucks up fossil-fuel-made electricity for AC. There are
better uses for Colorado River water, and Global Warming coal fires. Use
the resources sensibly and return Phoenix to the "snow birds".

yes, AC could be reduced quite a bit if people would
go underground or use geothermal cooling/heating and
other passive cooling techniques, even if it only shaves
off a little of the demand, every little bit can make
a difference. both solar and wind are coming along
and making a difference too.


the bad news:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...o-river-drough
t-lake-powell-mead-water-scarcity/

Freshwater sources around the world have been used at rates faster than
they can replenish themselves. Pipelines for freshwater from Canada or
Greenland make more sense than KeystoneXL.

i'm pretty sure that those won't happen either
as Canada will likely need all the water it can
come up with too. wouldn't make any sense to
dry out the tundra and to turn that into yet
another desert if we drain too much water away.
instead we should be happy to have it return to
forested land.


and some good news:

http://environment.nationalgeographi...er/l/lessons-f
rom-the-field-rainwater-harvesting-in-hiware-bazaar--india/

Rationing may make sense to you or me, but Capitalism wants to turn
water into a commodity, i.e. you get what you can afford. Can't afford
it it? Tough!

Watch the Guardians of Privilege come out to fight this.

how will they fight an actual working villiage
and system? i think it is a great example of
what needs to be done on a much larger scale.
like the Oglalla Aquifer water pumping should
be limited in areas where the rainfall has not
met replenishment rates.


as for me, not sure yet, the worms and other
soil critters get to digest me, beyond that i'm
not decided yet because a lot depends upon if i
stay here or move someplace else. the older i
get the more likely i'm not going to have the
energy to start all over again from scratch, but
that is what i would really like to do.

I'll probably be moving soon too. I hate to leave this hill, but we're
getting too old to live on a slope. Living on the flat makes so many
things easier.

i hope you can find a good place to be.

We won't go far. We can go to the boonies, if need be. Back roads aren't
as bad as the freeways around here.

still will be a challenge to find a good
site at a decent price.


do you think that we are stuck on this planet forever
without recourse?

The trouble with going away is where ever you go, there you are.

i've always been happy with my own company.


I've never really felt "stuck" on this planet, even if there is no way
for me to walk home.

i don't feel stuck, but we are near the bottom of
a deep gravity well which costs a lot to escape.
it may not be stuck, but it's darned close if we
have to get away quick.

the question to be answered at present is if
humans can transfer enough of our environment to
another closed system (space-ship, colony on the
moon, mars, or asteroid) so that it can be self-
sustaining. if we cannot figure that out then we
are stuck or we must change to a different form which
does not require such an extensive support
environment.

When you consider how much we (Homidea) have changed in the last 2
million years, if we are still around when the Sun goes "red giant" I'd
be surprised if we recognized our descendants.

my guess is we'll have split into thousands of
new variants by then. some recognisable and others
not.

Mammals didn't really get going until after the Chicxulub event, some 66
million years ago.

yep. we're short-timers compared to many
other species.


Look how much mammals have changed to take advantage
of the empty niches that the dinosaurs left.

yes, that's what i mean, but instead of undirected
changes brought about by chance mutations and rather
random forces of selection it might be even more quick
of a change once we understand what is needed, what is
acceptable and desired, etc.


Mr. Fukuoka and his natural farming would say that
we are not meant to know nature, that science is
useless, that nature is perfect, etc. to be happy is
to be a farmer and doing as little as possible.

Mr. Fukuoka is a wise man. You have your family and friends with
barbecues, and cheating at cards afterwards, on the week-ends. There are
the plants, and animals to know, and the smell that comes after the
rain, the flowers of spring, tending the garden, a cooling swim on a hot
day, stars to look at, the colors of harvest, the migrating geese, the
sound of rain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6OhIZODLDs

his form of happiness is not universal. not
everyone wants to be a farmer. some people find
their happiness in discovery or in other artistic
ways.

The Calvinist "work-ethic" can be over come.

Calvinist or Protestant?

All Cavinists are Protestant. I'm not sure if all Protestants are
Calvinist. (I lost interest.) But yes, it normally is cast as the
"Protestant Work Ethic". The belief that if your work was successful,
then you were one of God's chosen. Made most famous by the sociologist
Max Weber in his seminal work,"The Protestant Work Ethic, and the Spirit
of Capitalism".

Calvinism is perfect for those who want to suffer stoically, and
contemptuously.

If you haven't seen it, get Babbette's Feast". It says it all. A
wonderful movie.

no, i have heard of it, but i haven't seen it. i'll
have to add it to the list.


i've actually done a decent job of it myself.
at a fairly young age i decided i wanted off the
common treadmill and made consistent choices
after that to get there. i made the leap off
at age 33.5


no matter what it doesn't get us into space
before lights out.

Relax, your descendants may yet be able to transport to the star of
their choice, and tomorrow's science will indeed look like today's magic.

no decendents of me. i'm a genetic dead end.

If more people had that attitude, there would be more hope for humanity.

for me it was the simple recognition that i
have no desire to be a father and i thought
from a young age that wild spaces and other
resources were meant to be for other creatures
besides people. i really disliked the idea that
man was meant to multiply and subdue the earth.
to me that's about as false an idea as so many
others in religion that drove me out of it.


As it is, it looks like the plutocrates are herding us towards lemming's
leap. I hope you're enjoying the trip, because I think that is all that
there is to it.

pollutocrats.


which is a nice way to go for some, but others like
to engineer and design and tinker. why is the way
of the tinker outlawed in nature?

It is?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_cognition#Tool_and_weapon_use

I doubt that people could be prevented from tinkering whether it's
crating and transporting fire, or making a sharp edge, or peering over
the edge of the Standard Model to see what else is out there.

yep, so he's not so wise after all?

We call it diversity. Life doesn't give me meaning. I give meaning to
life. YMMV

like many i would like to think that i provide
meaning too, but a hundred years from now the
likelyhood of being remembered or understood is
faint. so i don't get a big head.

Leave Mayayana to the messiahs. Hinayana is all I can deal with.


one of his claims in the book of his i just
re-read (natural farming methods) was that the
earth could support 60 times the population
(around 5 billion when he wrote) if it would
eat grains and vegetables. can you imagine our
world of 300 billion people? even if you strip
things down to very basic support for water and
calories and force everyone under ground i still
don't think the earth can support that many of
us and still have wild areas. already we see
limits based upon fresh water availability for
the 7 billion and the future is looking very
interesting already just at this level of
ecosystem disruption and exploitation...

Let ye among you without typos cast the first stone.

i don't think it was a typo.


yes, i know that only so much can be changed at a
time if nature is to continue in some forms and still
be able to function. i'm not talking about obliterating
nature or any species that currently exist. i just
wonder where those concerned about nature and sustainable
agriculture can find some common ground with the makers
and designers.

I don't see a contradiction, as long as I don't have to eat their
experiments before they are proved to be safe.

while i agree with the general sentiment, previously
there were (and still are) plenty of things in the world
that are not safe to eat, yet we abide.

That's why provenance has given us a liver, but it only protects against
what already exists, not the new toxin on the block.

always a good idea to let someone else go
first. "yeah, you eat all those GMOs you
want and i'll try to avoid them and keep an
eye peeled for toxic effects in you and your
children."

Too much enthusiasm. I would never recommend for someone to be a guinea
pig. If there is a problem, I trust the government that as been
encouraging us to spend our money to be the test animals for GMO feeding
studies, will step in and offer assistance to those who took their
advice.

well i'm in favor of a free society to some large
extent. so if they could raise GMOs to be non-contaminating
to other plants and people wanted to eat them when
clearly labelled then i'm ok with that. the stumbling
block i have is that the GMOs are not contained and
we have no choice about eating them if we eat food that
isn't produced by us.


.... - i snipped some

anyways, those are the thoughts of today...

in other news, got some of the turnip seeds and
buckwheat seeds scattered and watered in. starting
also to get tomatoes turning color. the weather this
week is forecast sunny, sunny, sunny and getting
warmer. so we'll have a chance of it. will have
to water.

The squash has arrived in all its glory. One zucca, and one crookneck
are producing all we can eat, and the zuchs haven't started yet. The
cucumbers and lettuce are starting to hit their pace. We have tomatoes
most of the week, but it's only the nose of the camel. The peppers have
been sporadic, but now the heat is on us again, after a 6 week
departure.
Our weather guesser keeps forecasting 80s F, and we keep getting 90s F.

funny. we might hit 90 next week.

So are we, but if the weather gueser is true to form, it will closer to
100F.

today was a prime example. forecast to go into the
mid 80s, but it didn't make it to 80. still the
sunshine is appreciated. gotta water some bit every
day to keep everything happy. better to spread it
out so that we don't have to draw on the well so
heavily at any one time.


our own bit of humour is that we have cherry tomatoes
that are yellow to golden colored, i've been waiting for
them to get red... that is what happens when you plant
mystery tomato plants. we sure don't need six cherry
tomato plants (for two people). they will go into the
mix when canning juice for sure, and salsa if we make
any this season.


Work starts in about 2 weeks, and I'm hustling to finish up my projects.

What a Pollyanna I am. Work starts Tue. at 9AM. So many projects still
to finish. I hope they have the AC cranked up.

get your pipettes ready!

They were calibrated 2 weeks ago. We start of with juice samples, which
is pretty basic, pH, Total Acidty (TA), sugar (by refractometer), and
the accursed potassium. Fun starts when we have wine, AND juice samples.
This is the nobody leaves until all the work is done stage. When
fermentation is over, it quickly becomes "no overtime".

why "accursed" potassium? i mean why do you call
it accursed? difficult to measure or just trouble
when it is too high in the juice and not easy to
remove?


don't freak out! deep breaths, in, out, slowly,
there ya go...

In this heat, it is more like panting ;O) The peppers are loving it
though.

yes, the peppers are coming along well here too.

finally was able to pick about 10lbs of tomatoes
today. some BER in the smaller romas that were
developing about a month ago in that heat wave we
had. this round of heat there is much more cover
and mulch to help.

Most of our tomatoes are still holding back, but we are close.

we have picked another 10-15 lbs and more are
turning orange.

just a few sprinkles last night (a tease, all the
rain went north and south of us again). so i have
to water regularly now. we've not had any measurable
rain for a week and a half now and before that it
was several weeks too, so we are well behind a normal
season.

which is actually ok as i have to keep on digging
the project i'm working on and it would be a mess to
work in the clay if it rains. another 10ft today
(late start, got too hot and humid), tomorrow will
be another day and i can get a much earlier start.
after another 30 ft i get into the interesting end
of things (tying in to the existing drainage set
up for the garden and putting down the drain tubes
and back filling and then leveling and reshaping the
surrounding area to finish). i have all my seeds
ready too (10 lbs of winter rye, 10 lbs of winter
wheat, 10 lbs of oats, white clover, buckwheat,
turnips, trefoil, alfalfa, peas, beans, ...) i was
glad to finally find a local source of the oats,
wheat and rye. 30lbs of grain for $11 and a few $
for gas. most the rest of the seeds i had before or
am growing my own.

now i just need to find a good barley source and
i'll be set for this project.


The thunder from the YouTube video posted above reminds me that it's too
bad those inorganic beings of the future aren't here yet. Chili beans
for dinner tonight, with the usual reaction products expected tomorrow.
;O)

simulations are often a necessary step in understanding
any suitably complex system.

Prediction confirmed;O)

my condolences to all affected.

The survivor thank you for your wishes.




ever since we started growing more dry beans
i've gradually increased fiber and while it has
special moments of regret the overall improvement
is well worth it.


"To forget how to dig the earth and to tend the soil is to forget
ourselves."
- Mahatma Gandhi

To be fair, he did say "dig".

i can dig it.

Mahatma dug it.

i've yet to read a biography of him.

Tagore was an interesting character too.
i didn't know until the other day that
there exists an organisation of his
followers still going (with aims of
global governmental unity or destruction
i'm not sure yet as i have to read up
on them now)...


no-till wasn't popular then. there's a bit in
_Seven Years in Tibet_ which we enjoyed when they
were building the movie theatre and the people
digging would not dig any more until they found a
way to rescue each worm uncovered.

Oh, were the Jainists putting them on again? What a sense of humor.
Maybe they should have hired Confucianists.

just a movie, but amusing anyways as it happened
we first watched it when i was starting with the
small scale worm farm.

Probably won't be back 'till the week-end.

cheers, all is well. pretty quiet on the eastern
front.


Try not to get into trouble without me.

i'll save a seat on the bench here.


songbird

Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:

....
IF baser human instincts like greed can be reined in. Our
greatest threat is from our selves.

seems like it. and not just at the obvious violent
level, but also at the social organizational level.
if the society gets too saturated with people and
those needs are so great that we never have anything
extra to put into space exploration then we are as
sunk as we'd be if we'd just nuked ourselves or
poisoned ourselves.

You're making me nervous here. Do you mean that the cost of human
services would limit R & D, or do you mean the continued financial
predation of the many by the few would limit R & D?

the cost of human services is already a limit
on R&D and will continue to be one.

the other social disparity is a different
beast entirely and i'm not going to get into
that topic...


....
There has been less discretionary money for a long time. Even after
spending Billion$ to build the International Space Station, it is now
scheduled to be allowed to re-enter the atmosphere, and burn up.

which is stupidity magnified, but no big surprise
given both Skylab and Hubble experiences. that is
why we need an actual colony on the moon or a large
enough asteroid going, why keep wasting resources
on projects that are just going to destroy themselves
as their orbits decay?


Cutting social services wouldn't be my first choice.

nor mine either, but if we reduce population gradually,
restore the environment so that the people that remain
are well fed and have a clean and decent home and that
their children will have likewise, then we have room
for eventually getting out of this gravity well.

among the other alternatives is that the corporation
will take over (private or public, non-profit or for-
profit won't make much difference to me as long as it
gets us into space and heading to other planets, stars,
etc. in some form of viability).

you may say that the price would not be worth it if
you are selling your soul or being a slave, but i'm
quite sure that many people currently living on this
planet see life as quite limited and would be glad to
sign on. 100,000+ want to go to Mars even if it is
a one way trip (that's a lot of labor potential and
that may be what it takes to get a viable colony
started well enough that it could take more people
later).


that is why i'm a big fan of population control
at some point going even lower in population than
the carrying capacity of the planet (along with me
wanting wild spaces to still exist). it gives a
buffer for using some resources to explore beyond
the planet surface, but also having a lower population
also gives us more room for errors in judging what
the planet can actually support.

As with crime, there seems to be a proportional relationship between
poverty, and over population. Affluent, countries are seeing their birth
rates drop. On the other hand, regions that depend on subsistence
farming have high birth rates. Making peoples lives better, makes them
less dependent on their children, and they have fewer of them.

yes, seems to be happening, but no guarantee
that it will continue. some changes or a war or some
other event and all that could shift into higher
gear again.


By all means, let humanity return to 30 to 300 million more highly
nurtured people, but we are all going to have to survive a peak of at
least 9 billion, living underneath a more menacing sky, astroids are
gratuitous.

i don't think we have any existing government
that can really survive with a declining population
of that magnitude.

i would think that it almost impossible to get
back to 30 million because the wild lands already
in existance likely hold many more times than that
population.

also i think for the longer term it won't be
a lower overall population because as we get
established in space and on other planets then
the population starts expanding again (hopefully
with more forethought and control and better
policies about land use and wild-spaces).


Ever see that experiment where they
put a couple of rats in a large cage, and then let nature take its
course? Over population drove the rats crazy. Some went catatonic. Some
chewed on themselves, and most just became aggressive.

i've read different versions of the experiment
and never actually desired to see it happen.
again, population control, self-control is a
requirement for long-term survival. we're not
going to make it if we do not exercise some
sort of discipline with regards to population
and consumption of non-renewable resources.

We could do the opposite of what they do in France, and give tax breaks
to those who don't have children, and maybe for reduced consumption. Use
less, pay less. Maybe "durability", or "easily repaired" could replace
planned obsolescence.

i'm all in favor of taxes which discourage
non-recyclable or resource depleting or
polluting... but that's a whole different
conversation too.


some sciences can improve what is and isn't
a renewable resource, so i do have some amount
of optimism there (along with digging up and
recycling old dump-sites for metals, glass,
plastics, ...).


Ice Age canceling Dante's Inferno? Let's look at the science.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...culation-may-h
ave-released-co2-at-end-of-ice-ages
At the end of each ice age, the ocean exhales carbon dioxide. Scientists
believe this explains the difference in atmospheric CO2 concentrations
between

ice ages, which have lower concentrations of carbon dioxide, and

warmer, more CO2-saturated periods like the one we're living in now.

an ice age is going to be pretty CO2 limited,
so yes, the oceans will be a source of CO2
replenishment. take away most of the living
ecosystem and a lot of CO2 emissions are
going to disappear too.

Replenishment??? Our problem now is getting rid of CO2, not replenishing
it. As the oceans absorb more and more CO2, they are getting more and
more acidic. Take away phytoplankton, and we are in real trouble.

i've recently gone into the writings of Margulis
and Lovelock (about Gaia). Margulis's book on
the Microcomos was interesting if a repeat of many
things i've already read in other places. so it
was far enough back, but i would have liked to have
had more time and energy to write down more notes
of things to look into more.

Lovelock's Gaia is much more interesting from
the atmospheric chemistry perspective, but i
still have a pile of books to read by him so
we'll see how the story changes.

one thing that surprised me was the claim that
without life that Nitrogen gas would end up
turned into a nitrogen compound said to be more
stable than the gas, but surprising to me as i
figured the reason we had so much Nitrogen
gas in the atmosphere to begin with was because
it was more stable than any other version.

but as i said, we're still in the early stages
of this bout of reading...

ok, back to ice-ages and CO2. the sub-topic
was that the oceans would be a sink of CO2 and
a source of replenishment, and i was agreeing
with you that they would be a source of
replenishment.

to help offset an on-coming ice-age

[which takes
much less than i imagined as Lovelock claims a
reduction in just 2% of sunlight would do it, but
at the same time he claims the percentage of
energy given off by the sun has increased some
30+% since the earth formed -- hmmmm...]

the existing CO2 overload in the oceans would
finally have a chance of gradually reducing (as
the oceans cooled they can store more gas) both
the level and the acidity. also the cooler
temperature shrinks the volume too. lower water
levels in time.


the colder water temperatures will put more
gasses in solution, though i think the real
impetus for the ocean giving off more CO2
would be the return of sunlight on the water
so that more algae will grow, that and the
added warmth, the big breathing out...

Water adsorbs more CO2 as it gets colder. I'm losing your thread. What?
Warmer water evaporates more water vapor, which is also a greenhouse gas.

it is only a greenhouse gas if the water
vapor does not contribute to cloud formation
(higher planetary albedo) and likely some
other things too which we don't really
understand as of yet.


does all of that ice cause more earth-quakes
and volcanoes in the end? with the poles
getting all of that ice, it might be that the
earth does get more active and in some manner
that helps reverse things again in time.

More water vapor in the atmosphere means more and nastier storms as that
water vapor turns to rain, it releases heat. More warm air rising means
faster air speeds. All in all, a really bad deal for everyone.

which doesn't say anything about my point
about the effect that the weight of more ice
might have on the crust and an increase in
volcanism.

yes, warmer temperatures increase evaporation
and the energy available to forming larger
storms. do those larger storms start causing
so much damage that they start killing off
enough people, plants, animals, destroying
wetlands, farm fields, forests, etc. that it
starts showing up in how much CO2 is being
emitted? maybe. maybe not.


-----

I'm sure you know that even if we stop burning fossil fuel now, it will
take some hundreds of years, with present technology, to return to 390
ppm CO2.

http://arstechnica.com/science/2012/...tinue-to-rise-
even-if-we-cut-emissions/

for some period of time, then it levels off
and then it declines (if we've managed to go
back to where glaciers recover, snows and ice
cover at the poles increase again).

[i'm offline when i read-write most of these
notes, so it doesn't do me any good to include
links to articles that i have to guess their
meaning from the title in the link]


i don't really know, it depends upon how many
plants we can get going like trees which can soak
up tons of carbon, if we can get many areas of
the planet reforested that may soak up more CO2
than expected. already there is some slight
evidence appearing that plants are already
increasing their absorption of carbon... if we
can stop over-grazing and get areas reforested
and replanted then we can use good land management
to soak up several tons of CO2 per acre per year.
just that we have to stop adding so much more.

I hope those trees are being planted quickly.

it doesn't take long for trees to cover an
area if it gets above a certain temperature and
there is enough water.

around here any area left bare for 10-30 years
will be covered by tons of new growth, trees,
shrubs, etc. i have to weed, cut them down on
a regular basis.

poplar trees go to 40ft in 7 years and they
blow seeds around for miles. the white pine
will hit 40ft in about twice that time and
spreads seeds more slowly, but the CO2 tied
up is in a much more durable form (poplar
rots rather quickly even as it grows).


India to Eclipse China as World's Coal Power
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...china-as-world
-s-coal-power-buoying-bhp.html

Everybody wants to be 1st World.

and the first world is now changing and
improving in various ways. those new coal
burning plants are not going to be as horrible
as the old versions were. maybe they'll
include plans for carbon sequestration? i
dunno. i do know that the world will continue
to exert pressure on CO2 polluters. nobody
will be immune.

if the situation gets bad enough individual
citizens might even start going commando to
disrupt the polluters. it has happened before
and may happen in the future.

in the meantime, buy land, plant forests,
that at least is the most certain way of tying
up CO2.


-----

A comet collision, a MASSIVE volcanic eruption, or a nuclear war could
throw enough particulate matter high enough into the atmosphere to block
the sun, perhaps for decades, and give us an ice age, and there would
also be human suffering on an unimaginable scale.

true.


What do you see as triggering this joyous convergence of Ice Age/Inferno?

a freaking huge amount of luck.

You're a candidate for a little town with a replica of the Eifel Tower
in the Nevada desert. What you bring to Lost Wages, usually stays in
Lost Wages.

the trend is continuing (a declining demand
of 1% per year) in water use for the SW even
including all the growth and that is without
dealing with the largest user of the water
(agriculture) in a high-priority manner. if
instead they put a lot more resources into
turning those current farmers into more water
efficient users (drip irrigation, recycling
water, dry farming, etc.) that water diversion
needed could be reduced by quite a large
amount.

i don't see either California or Nevada
going without water from the Colorado River
completely, but if you can reduce the draw
down enough then you can then restore something
of a natural flow once in a while. any returned
flow turns the river delta back into a productive
wetland again and you've also regained a CO2 sink
and fresh water source for thousands of square
miles... starts to recharge aquifers. gets
plants and life going again.


Seems that's where you'd be going after saying that perhaps global
warming will be good for something. I doubt that it will be good for the
starving, homeless refugees.

if an ice-age started in the next 30 years?
if the one offset the other?

perhaps there will not be the disruption and
refugees?

if we get hit by the cosmic/comet lotto the
whole exercise may become rather moot.

Yes, with a bang or a whimper, in fire or in ice, we all die, some,
damned, inconvenient day.

You may get hit in the cross walk. There are no guarantees, the best you
can do is to minimize risk, which we aren't doing.

i know, that's what irks me, that while the
individual citizen can act faster than the
government to reduce their carbon footprint
we still can't seem to get through to the
policy makers and destroyers that yes indeed we
do want a change large enough to stop the
damage from continuing. i don't see big-oil,
or now, big-gas going away without a fight, so
really we have to put energy into doing things
that will actually soak up CO2 no matter what
else happens. to me that is replanting trees
and putting more carbon in the soil in any
way i can.

It appears that fossil fuel producers are trying to segway to clean
energy, but making maximum profits in the mean time. Fossil fuel makes a
good profit, if you don't count the clean up. and they don't.

they're starting to get the bill. that
will only increase as CO2 goes up and people
start seeing the damage.


In any
event, my efforts are like a tinkers dam in compared to Noah's flood.
Perennial crops make a lot of sense though.

every little bit helps, every person can make
a difference.

perennial crops would make a huge difference
if they could be used in arid areas. just to
not have to leave bare dirt for any period of
time is a huge difference to the quality of the
soil.


On a daily basis, the best I can do for the world is to keep a few
hundred sq. ft. of soil alive, buy organic, buy locally,

ever look for a CSA?

Sure, we have them everywhere, plus several farmers markets. Local, and
foreign produce is marked in local stores.

the farms around here are larger and
monocultures of corn or soybeans most of
the time. other than working with one
neighbor in trading a few items we don't
have CSA options close enough.


Right now, apples from Chile
taste better than last years local harvest does right now.

i can get all the apples i could process for
free this season. i have no free time or energy
to do it. i think Ma is in a similar boat as
we still have about half the tomatoes to pick and
process and i have other things to do too.


and try to find
a politician who isn't a corporation whore to vote for.

i'm sure there are some, but it's not just corporate
whores that are blocking things but others with views
about "the end-times" or "god's plan". somehow we have
to be able to work around such obstructionists or
delusionists.

But it is the corporate whores who feed the craziness for their own ends.
http://naturalsociety.com/monsanto-b...kids-caught-br
ainwashing-children/
http://www.businessweek.com/investin...ves/2007/05/ex
xons_climate.html
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Heartland_Institute

in all cases those companies have people who
work for them who are not whores or environmentally
ignorant. in time their voices are making a
difference. in the global scale of things given
enough time most people will come around and make
the changes needed.

in the meantime what do you do with Monsanto
employees? are they all evil?


....
Petitions are are near
worthless. If you're not out in the street making a nuisance of
yourself, nothing will happen. Beat those pots, and block those
intersections.

a pledge is worth something if you actually make
a change.

the folks in Boston have made a lot of changes so
it can be done. if folks out west can do similarly
then the water needed can be reduced enough to restore
a flow to the Colorado River Delta, some flow is better
than none (as a few rainy seasons did show).

Southern California is desert and semi-desert, and has 2 major
metropolitan areas, as well as extensive agriculture (lettuce, tomatoes,
dates). I don't see wasting water on golf courses, and swimming pools.
Water rationing really should be imposed. A standard allotment, and then
very high prices for any excess consumption.

yes, it's long past time when rationing and
taxes should reflect the actual lack of water
out there.


You want to kill Arizona's golf courses? TERRORIST!
It's a job killer.

if the golf courses were supplied with recycled
water and if they didn't use *cides i wouldn't say
much about them. better yet, if they were mowed
with sheep and green energy lawn mowers, then my
opposition goes down even further. i'm no big fan
of dead spaces and wasted water or energy, but in
contrast that green space may be less negative
impact on an area than leaving it as pavement,
parking lot or bare roof tops. if we could take
advantage of that green space (in the roughs and
the other edges) to provide habitat for bees and
other wildlife then we might actually gain some
level beyond what is liable to happen in an
otherwise arid region. take it up another notch
to using the space as a provider of green manure,
fodder, fruits, veggies and open to the poor for
free then you've got a bit more of my support.

Do you know what the temp is today in Phoenix? 107F. What grows well in
100F+ heat, bird? You gonna give the sheep T-shirts and caps to wear?

they'll be much thinner sheep without as much
fur perhaps. i dunno. yet, i bet it is cooler
on those green spaces than it is on the cement,
parking lots and rooftops.

one of the needed things for permaculture is a
tree that does survive such temperatures to give
shade and protection from dessicating winds and
there are trees that can survive those conditions.
it's not hopeless.

This is also a very fragile ecosystem that only needs one ATV, or dune
buggy to mess it all up. It would also be a good location for a solar
farm.

i'm talking about an area already covered by
trees or growth, like a golf course. dune buggy
or ATVs are not going to be a frequent happening.


Certain areas of southern California do a good business with date palams.

within some level of density they may even be
water neutral, but i think it unlikely any
producer is planting that sparsely. at least
Southern CA does get some rain here or there.
it's not quite as bad as it could be.


An area called Fountain Valley is found in the middle of the old Santa
Ana River bed. It's called Fountain Valley, because way back when there
were artesian wells. By the time the farmers got done exploiting it,
their pumps could barely reach the water that was left.

are they doing anything to restore the
aquifer?


The area also sucks up fossil-fuel-made electricity for AC. There are
better uses for Colorado River water, and Global Warming coal fires. Use
the resources sensibly and return Phoenix to the "snow birds".

yes, AC could be reduced quite a bit if people would
go underground or use geothermal cooling/heating and
other passive cooling techniques, even if it only shaves
off a little of the demand, every little bit can make
a difference. both solar and wind are coming along
and making a difference too.


the bad news:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...rado-river-dro
ugh
t-lake-powell-mead-water-scarcity/

Freshwater sources around the world have been used at rates faster than
they can replenish themselves. Pipelines for freshwater from Canada or
Greenland make more sense than KeystoneXL.

i'm pretty sure that those won't happen either
as Canada will likely need all the water it can
come up with too. wouldn't make any sense to
dry out the tundra and to turn that into yet
another desert if we drain too much water away.
instead we should be happy to have it return to
forested land.


and some good news:

http://environment.nationalgeographi...water/l/lesson
s-f
rom-the-field-rainwater-harvesting-in-hiware-bazaar--india/

Rationing may make sense to you or me, but Capitalism wants to turn
water into a commodity, i.e. you get what you can afford. Can't afford
it it? Tough!

Watch the Guardians of Privilege come out to fight this.

how will they fight an actual working villiage
and system? i think it is a great example of
what needs to be done on a much larger scale.
like the Oglalla Aquifer water pumping should
be limited in areas where the rainfall has not
met replenishment rates.

Say, "hello" to dry farming.

i think this village is long past the dry
farming and in much better shape. they are
farming based upon water levels in wells and
rainfall amounts. dry farming is something
quite different. these folks get rain enough
most of the time for two or more crops. dry
farming often counts crops in alternate years
a success.


as for me, not sure yet, the worms and other
soil critters get to digest me, beyond that i'm
not decided yet because a lot depends upon if i
stay here or move someplace else. the older i
get the more likely i'm not going to have the
energy to start all over again from scratch, but
that is what i would really like to do.

I'll probably be moving soon too. I hate to leave this hill, but we're
getting too old to live on a slope. Living on the flat makes so many
things easier.

i hope you can find a good place to be.

We won't go far. We can go to the boonies, if need be. Back roads aren't
as bad as the freeways around here.

still will be a challenge to find a good
site at a decent price.

A good site at a decent price? What a concept! This is California, the
home of the $250,000 fixer-upper. We'll settle for "no common wall".

we sure don't have that problem around here.
250K would get you a nice house and acreage.
farm land is still expensive though *sigh*.
the house down the road is for sale, 1.84
acres...


....
When you consider how much we (Homidea) have changed in the last 2
million years, if we are still around when the Sun goes "red giant" I'd
be surprised if we recognized our descendants.

my guess is we'll have split into thousands of
new variants by then. some recognisable and others
not.

Mammals didn't really get going until after the Chicxulub event, some 66
million years ago.

yep. we're short-timers compared to many
other species.


Look how much mammals have changed to take advantage
of the empty niches that the dinosaurs left.

yes, that's what i mean, but instead of undirected
changes brought about by chance mutations and rather
random forces of selection it might be even more quick
of a change once we understand what is needed, what is
acceptable and desired, etc.

You seem to expect a rational approach to evolution, bird. If we were
rational we would have hung our politicians, and their patron by now.

we are their patrons. the only reason they
persist is because the problem is always someone
elses official...


No, it's going to be a market driven GM-evolution, if it happens. First,
most people will choose to have a son. The choices on the price list
will make Johnny big, strong, smart, and light skinned. Blond and blue
eyed will be popular in some circles as well. Problem is that big
requires more food. Strong in a world that requires less physical labor?
Making Johnny smart is tempting autism. Light skin is OK, if you don't
live in the tropics. Blond and blue eyed may help Johnny get a job, but
will have drawbacks again for those that live in the tropics.

I suspect, bird, that you were thinking more along the lines of genetic
modifications that would allow the species Homo sapiens to live in the
oceans of Europa.

or just tougher or smaller to survive space
colony efforts. perhaps more flexible spines
or double jointed to get through twisty
passages. dunno exactly. just that it becomes
possible and directed once we know more.


Some will want that, but most of us will choose to reduce our diversity
in favor of making a profit in the next quarter, i.e. soon.

if profit is what gets you fed and you
have no land then that's what has to happen.


And then the next Chicxulub event will happen with all its attendant
horrors. I doubt that all of humanity will be lost, but more would have
survived with greater biodiversity. IMHO.

more will survive if we have colonies on other
planets and in asteroids and the moon and off on
trips to surrounding solar systems.

though i sure hope we will get more detection
scopes in space to find them long before they can
hit us. we certainly have the technology to get
detection in space. we probably also have the
technology to deflect well enough if we can detect
it in time. we could even turn a near miss into a
new satelite or colony. taking a lemon and turning
it into a diamond... that would be sweet.


....
always a good idea to let someone else go
first. "yeah, you eat all those GMOs you
want and i'll try to avoid them and keep an
eye peeled for toxic effects in you and your
children."

Too much enthusiasm. I would never recommend for someone to be a guinea
pig. If there is a problem, I trust the government that as been
encouraging us to spend our money to be the test animals for GMO feeding
studies, will step in and offer assistance to those who took their
advice.

well i'm in favor of a free society to some large
extent. so if they could raise GMOs to be non-contaminating
to other plants and people wanted to eat them when
clearly labelled then i'm ok with that. the stumbling
block i have is that the GMOs are not contained and
we have no choice about eating them if we eat food that
isn't produced by us.

You noticed that too, hmmmmm?

a good reasong to grow as much of our own as
possible...


... - i snipped some

Whaaaaaaat? You didn't like my idea of transferring "consciousness" to a
chip (solid state drive) in a mechanical, inorganic, ageless being?

Humph!

i ran out of gas, what can i say?


....of gardens and other stuff...
Work starts in about 2 weeks, and I'm hustling to finish up my
projects.

What a Pollyanna I am. Work starts Tue. at 9AM. So many projects still
to finish. I hope they have the AC cranked up.

get your pipettes ready!

They were calibrated 2 weeks ago. We start of with juice samples, which
is pretty basic, pH, Total Acidty (TA), sugar (by refractometer), and
the accursed potassium. Fun starts when we have wine, AND juice samples.
This is the nobody leaves until all the work is done stage. When
fermentation is over, it quickly becomes "no overtime".

why "accursed" potassium? i mean why do you call
it accursed? difficult to measure or just trouble
when it is too high in the juice and not easy to
remove?

No, not hard, just time consuming. It is usually the last measurement of
the day. So far it has gone smoothly, but when the probe starts to load
up, as it will, the results aren't stable, and they need to be run (and
re-run) until there is less than a 2% error.

ah, ok.


don't freak out! deep breaths, in, out, slowly,
there ya go...

In this heat, it is more like panting ;O) The peppers are loving it
though.

yes, the peppers are coming along well here too.

finally was able to pick about 10lbs of tomatoes
today. some BER in the smaller romas that were
developing about a month ago in that heat wave we
had. this round of heat there is much more cover
and mulch to help.

Most of our tomatoes are still holding back, but we are close.

we have picked another 10-15 lbs and more are
turning orange.

Not bad for your slow start this year.

it's picked up since then. i estimated our
first large picking (right before 3+ inches of
rain) at 130lbs, but it was more than that
because we're at 50+ qts and it takes 3-4 lbs
per qt and still have another 10 qts to go
(salsa).

the sucky aspect is that i've managed to pick
up some crud and my lungs aren't happy. with
the high temperature and humidity this week i've
been mostly stuck inside other than a few bouts
of picking weeds, cucumbers here or there snagging
a few cherry tomatoes and checking the cabbages.

i think "stir crazy" is the phrase. tomorrow is
supposed to be cooler and i hope to get out and
chop some poison sumac back. it's gotta be done
and if it is too much i can stop at any point
and it doesn't matter if i cough pieces of lung
on it (whereas there might be some problem if i
do that canning salsa ). as of yet, i've
stayed away from the canning other than doing the
very first batch (last Tuesday).


....
"To forget how to dig the earth and to tend the soil is to forget
ourselves."
- Mahatma Gandhi

To be fair, he did say "dig".

i can dig it.

Mahatma dug it.

i've yet to read a biography of him.

Tagore was an interesting character too.
i didn't know until the other day that
there exists an organisation of his
followers still going (with aims of
global governmental unity or destruction
i'm not sure yet as i have to read up
on them now)...

Thanks, he had eluded me until now.

yw. i haven't found the organisation as of
yet, but i did read a bit about the school he
founded with his Nobel Prize money.


no-till wasn't popular then. there's a bit in
_Seven Years in Tibet_ which we enjoyed when they
were building the movie theatre and the people
digging would not dig any more until they found a
way to rescue each worm uncovered.

Oh, were the Jainists putting them on again? What a sense of humor.
Maybe they should have hired Confucianists.

just a movie, but amusing anyways as it happened
we first watched it when i was starting with the
small scale worm farm.

Probably won't be back 'till the week-end.

Last year we waited about a month before the harvest started. This year
the harvest started while the winery was still bottling (not good). If
the weather holds, it should be an orderly harvest. If we get heat,
everything will ripen at once, and we will be overwhelmed. If it rains,
mold will sweep the vineyards.

amazing at how much depends upon the weather.
good luck.


Try not to get into trouble without me.

i'll save a seat on the bench here.

Good, I don't want to miss anything.

me either. Ma made cinamon rolls. she's
so good to me...


World Domination Through Vinification.

vini, vini, vini!


songbird