The English (thank gawd) have a history of raising eccentricity to a high art. I got
a very healthy dose in my genetic background from my father. I can understand how
the English wouldnt understand such stupidity. Ingrid


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

wrote in message
...

.. If these "laws" were so damn important, so damned
necessary for the "general good" why not fund "fence police" to go around
making sure
everyone was in compliance? Why not publish these "very important new
laws" so
everyone DOES know about them. Because sure as hell having rules that no
one knows
about, that people routinely break or even ignore leads to complete
contempt for law.
Ingrid

If I understand correctly from your message, your are talking about
Brookfield, WI. If so, it took me about 15 seconds to find the entire
municipal code for that city on line. I just put "Brookfield WI zoning"
into Google. You can go to this address and get a complete zoning map,
examples of the zoning ordinance, and a link to the full municipal code.
When you pull up the municipal code you will see that Title 16 deals with
subdivisions and Title 17 covers all other zoning matters. I am certain
that the code would be available for your inspection at your city hall or
courthouse and perhaps at the local library. As for compliance, all
building departments have some type of inspection and enforcement division.
Most departments have only a handful of people and therefore concentrate on
inspections as part of the building permit process or they act on complaints
made by the public. It isn't very common for building departments to look
for infractions.
http://www.ci.brookfield.wi.us/zoning.htm

It originates in common law and are part and parcel of the constitution and beliefs
of the people who founded this country. It is embodied in the idea that a man's
(woman's) house is their castle and inviolate. that nobody can enter your house that
a person can shoot and kill an intruder into their house and that police must show
just cause to a judge and get a warrant to enter a dwelling. it is also embodied in
the concepts of private property and ownership. the state is not allowed to
interfere in use of private property without just cause.
financial institutions lend to PEOPLE. I have never heard of banks dictating deed
restrictions or setting down rules for what people can and cant do on their property.
not unless they are in bed with the politicians!
so now it isnt what you want, it is what the bank wants. there is no guarantee in
law that anybody needs to sell their property quickly has to recoup their investment.
this is the basic problem with buying houses as investments. they are shit poor
investments. land as real estate is a good investment. not houses. so anybody
buys a home expecting to get their money out or better when they have to dump it on
the market needs a better investment broker. look what happened to so much property
in so many cities when black people moved into neighborhoods. people were panicked
and sold losing a lot of money. never mind their new neighbors were wonderful
people. How you going to guarantee against that kind of eventuality. You want to
minimize your risk at the expense of other people's freedom.
in most parts of the country, including where my mother lives running a small
business out of the home is perfectly legal. the restrictions have more to do with
traffic than anything else.
building codes are a safety and health issue. as a matter of fact, most areas of the
US have no enforced "codes". there is no inspection required, no permit required to
occupy a house..
the minimum lot sizes in the new developments near my mother are 1/4 acre ... and
they built 300-500K houses on these postage stamps. it is a joke. but what they
cannot do is say "oh, this person who built a house 50 years ago is not the right
size, so she has to increase the house size or we will fine her 1K per day." I dont
think ANY city has the right to enforce HOA restrictions on people who never signed
on the dotted line. and that is EXACTLY what the city politicians have done. they
have made one big HOA out the city, writing and rewriting the rules to everyone has
to follow the same stupidity. they are even forcing people to pay for private
garbage pickup .. everyone has to pay the same, doesnt matter if they dont have any
garbage. So where the hell DOES IT END? Ingrid

I don't know where this concept originates.
you simply don't have unlimited rights to do as you wish with your property.
Indeed, most of us live onproperty owned by a financial institution who has some
interest inmaintaining the value of their investment.
You might find
yourself in a situation where you have to sell your home quickly and are
unable to because your neighbor has decided to decorate his home in an
Adam's Family theme.

Zoning also prohibits the conduct of most businesses within a residential
area.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

smoking pot, true. it isnt endangering anyone.
visiting a prostitute? oh yeah, ever heard of AIDS? then the men take it home give it
to their wives, who pass it on to any children being born.
Ingrid

"Vox Humana" wrote:
One might think that smoking marijuana or
visiting a prostitute fall within the same category as painting your house
orange.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

ahhhh.. but you are one election away from your city, town, whatever if they start
passing laws!! they can change the laws on you any time they want. Ingrid

Ann wrote:
Assume anything you want. All I'm saying is I wouldn't live anywhere
where anyone had the kind of say over my property as to what kind of
fence I put up, or what color I painted my house, or what I grew in my
yard. All the rest of your arguments are just red herrings to draw
away from the base issue.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

wrote in message
...
And why not. If there isnt a law against fences the person doesnt want to
see it can
just build a fence so they dont have to look at it. Ingrid

But the two points were made:
1) if you own the land and pay taxes you should be able to do as you wish
2) It was OK to have a semi if it could be parked in the yard

There was great pride in the fact that her community didn't have
regulations. But it seems that they do have regulations. If you own the
rig it is OK to park it in your yard. If you have employees you can't park
it in the yard. It all seems very arbitrary to me and I see no virtue in
one person's rules over another. Your example of building a fence to block
the view is just as burdensome as asking the trucker to park his equipment
elsewhere. Both rules impose a burden and someone has to be the arbiter.




"Vox Humana" wrote:
Why draw the line at tractor trailers? If a person makes his/her living
driving a big rig, does that make them a second class citizen in your
town
as compared to the Maytag repair man? After all, if you pay the mortgage
payments and the taxes shouldn't you be entitled to park what ever you
want
in the driveway? I believe that is your position.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Every now and then when there is no comeback, I'll get the predictable
"buddhist..." accusation. All I can say is that in my life, I am a peaceful
person. When asked, H.H. The Dalai Lama said of his ability to be compassionate
all the time, he answered, "it is the most difficult part of my practice."
Good for him, certainly good for me.

I could care less what people say about who I am. I know who I am.


On Wed, 04 Jun 2003 19:00:01 GMT, wrote:

If it didnt speak to how harassed and anguished my mothers is I would say this is
almost funny... but her sister (my aunt) who lives down the hill from my mom has been
a long time peace advocate and not mouth, walking the picket lines and doing. In
exasperation my mother asked "what do you do with someone like that?" and without
missing a beat my aunt said "shoot em".
Ingrid

Janet Baraclough wrote:
"Mental cases"? Do you mean, people with a mental illness? I would
have thought that a Buddhist like yourself would believe that what they
deserve is care and compassion.

Janet.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

I think this thread has now gone wild!


On Wed, 04 Jun 2003 19:55:50 GMT, wrote:

this is all confused. Victoria was not talking about the farmer she was talking
about the deer hanger on the basketball hoop who DID sign a contract with
restrictions. Ingrid

Ann wrote:

animaux expounded:

Do you honestly find that to be fair to the rest of the homeowners?

Those homeowners moved into *his* neighborhood, and then tried to tell
him what to do with his land. Tough shit!. He was there first. Their
HOA applied to them, not to the original owner. Do you really think
just because you move into a neighborhood you can tell everyone who
was already there what they can do? Thank god I don't live near
anyone who thinks like that!



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Which is what I did in the back. I have a length of common fence with the igit
and I attached concrete reinforcement grid and have a nice Schizophragma
hydrangoides (sp?) and some ivy treebine, and Virginia creeper. In a year or
so, I won't be able to see a thing.

On Wed, 04 Jun 2003 20:13:35 GMT, wrote:

And why not. If there isnt a law against fences the person doesnt want to see it can
just build a fence so they dont have to look at it. Ingrid

"Vox Humana" wrote:
Why draw the line at tractor trailers? If a person makes his/her living
driving a big rig, does that make them a second class citizen in your town
as compared to the Maytag repair man? After all, if you pay the mortgage
payments and the taxes shouldn't you be entitled to park what ever you want
in the driveway? I believe that is your position.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

wrote in message
...
smoking pot, true. it isnt endangering anyone.
visiting a prostitute? oh yeah, ever heard of AIDS? then the men take it
home give it
to their wives, who pass it on to any children being born.
Ingrid

Anything can be dangerous if you are an idiot. Every hear about someone
drowning in a bathtub?

"animaux" wrote in message
...
Which is what I did in the back. I have a length of common fence with the
igit
and I attached concrete reinforcement grid and have a nice Schizophragma
hydrangoides (sp?) and some ivy treebine, and Virginia creeper. In a year
or
so, I won't be able to see a thing.


I guess Virginia creeper has some merit! I would need a wall of it about 20
feet high to mask my neighbor's legal but ugly yard. Because of the
difference in elevation between our houses I can see every square inch of
their yard. The meant well, but they clear cut their entire back yard which
is on a slope. Then they used Round Up on it and killed all the vegetation.
Now it is an eroding mess. The erosion undercut the last huge tree they had
and it fell, nearly hitting their house. The tree took out the tops of two
of my trees when it fell. I seriously thinking of putting in a bamboo
screen. Even if we were allowed to have privacy fences, there wouldn't be
one that would reasonably work.

yes. there were deed restrictions on the property my mother and father bought 60
years ago. Cant sell to black people and no Jews.

there were no other restrictions on the land. I dont even think it was zoned back
then cause there were farmers all around the area.

The CITY became the BIG HOA. It is the politicians within the last few years began
writing the laws of a typical HOA into CITY LAW, including no fences etc. etc. etc.
So the ENTIRE CITY OF BROOKFIELD has become one big HOA.

Got it? they changed the laws after my parents bought the property.
Ingrid


"Vox Humana" wrote:
I don't know why people keep saying that deed restrictions "creep up on
people" or that they "didn't buy into that in the first place." You have
been sold a bill of goods if you believe that. Deed restrictions are a
matter of public record. You can go to the courthouse and ask for a copy.
There is nothing mysterious or covert about deed restriction. Such
restrictions can exist and be enforced with or without a homeowner's
association. Also, you either bought into or didn't buy into a development
with a homeowner's association. They don't spring up in the middle of the
night. A person may find that their land has been rezoned. That is a
completely different matter. Times change. Zoning changes grandfather in
non-complying structures and uses. I suspect that the occasional squeaky
wheel who becomes unhappy because they are prevented from doing what they
want misrepresents the facts. I have seen this happen at meetings. People
claim they never agreed to the covenants and restrictions. In reality they
signed a "Planned Unit Development Rider" at closing.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

wrote in message
...
yes. there were deed restrictions on the property my mother and father
bought 60
years ago. Cant sell to black people and no Jews.

there were no other restrictions on the land. I dont even think it was
zoned back
then cause there were farmers all around the area.

The CITY became the BIG HOA. It is the politicians within the last few
years began
writing the laws of a typical HOA into CITY LAW, including no fences etc.
etc. etc.
So the ENTIRE CITY OF BROOKFIELD has become one big HOA.

Got it? they changed the laws after my parents bought the property.
Ingrid


Your city doesn't have a board of zoning appeal?

My next door neighbor did much the same. I planted Sweet Peas and
Morning Glories which have been the one bit of saving grace masking
much of the worst that he has done. I am of the do what ya want just
leave me alone school. So instead of hand wringing and bitching about
his yard rapine I planted a living screen. Simple, effective and low
maintenance.

When some one complains about the Violets in my lawn I smile and pick
a posie to put in a window vase, makes the wife smile. It is best to
cultivate a canvas back allowing the worst of the complaints to simply
roll off.

Dave

On Wed, 04 Jun 2003 21:31:59 GMT, "Vox Humana"
wrote:


"animaux" wrote in message
.. .
Which is what I did in the back. I have a length of common fence with the
igit
and I attached concrete reinforcement grid and have a nice Schizophragma
hydrangoides (sp?) and some ivy treebine, and Virginia creeper. In a year
or
so, I won't be able to see a thing.


I guess Virginia creeper has some merit! I would need a wall of it about 20
feet high to mask my neighbor's legal but ugly yard. Because of the
difference in elevation between our houses I can see every square inch of
their yard. The meant well, but they clear cut their entire back yard which
is on a slope. Then they used Round Up on it and killed all the vegetation.
Now it is an eroding mess. The erosion undercut the last huge tree they had
and it fell, nearly hitting their house. The tree took out the tops of two
of my trees when it fell. I seriously thinking of putting in a bamboo
screen. Even if we were allowed to have privacy fences, there wouldn't be
one that would reasonably work.


Dave Fouchey, WA4EMR
http://photos.yahoo.com/davefouchey
Southeastern Lower Michigan
42° 35' 20'' N,
82° 58' 37'' W
GMT Offset: -5
Time Zone: Eastern

wrote:
yes. there were deed restrictions on the property my mother and father bought 60
years ago. Cant sell to black people and no Jews.

there were no other restrictions on the land. I dont even think it was zoned back
then cause there were farmers all around the area.

The CITY became the BIG HOA. It is the politicians within the last few years began
writing the laws of a typical HOA into CITY LAW, including no fences etc. etc. etc.
So the ENTIRE CITY OF BROOKFIELD has become one big HOA.

Got it? they changed the laws after my parents bought the property.
Ingrid



If that's true, it's called an "ex post facto" law and unenforcable because
it violates the US Constitution (Article 1 and I think Article 6).
Anything preexisting *must* be grandfathered.

Unless they wanna condemn the property using "imminent domain." [that
oughta start a ruckus]

Best regards,
Bob