On Wed, 04 Jun 2003 05:25:08 -0400, Ann wrote:


You are getting tiresome with your reaching. No one said the tractor
trailers make them second class citizens. I'm married to a truck
driver. It's a matter of safety, not asthetics. Have fun in your
sanitized world. I like mine much better.

Why do you insist it's a sanitized world because of a few aesthetic things being
out of place are an annoyance to those of us who comply with deed restrictions?
My garden is hardly a sanitized world. It happens to be both Texas and National
Wildlife Federation Backyard Habitat Certified. It was just filmed for a
television program here in Texas, and when asked what I'd call my garden I
answered "orderly chaos." What part of that is sanitized? I have rats, bats,
snakes, skinks, lizards, anoles, hummingbirds, cuckoo birds which nest every
year in one of our live oaks, barn swallows, purple martins, etc...

None of what I have or want is sanitized. However, and I will say this again,
we are protected by the deed restrictions which EVERYONE signed at closing.

If you don't like those things, don't move here. I don't put you down for
believing the way you do. The problem is, this is Texas. In great part, people
insist on conformity. It keeps property values up. It is not like that up
north. On Long Island my gardens were whatever they were. I could care less
about basketball hoops (still don't, but when you hang dead game I find it
obnoxious).

Not everything is how it is in New England. I don't always agree with some of
what goes on down here, in that regard. However, I did agree and in order to
maintain our property value for other TEXANS who want this type front yards, we
must do what is demanded by what we signed on the dotted line to do. And indeed
it is a civil matter.

I would rather live next to a house with chain link than somebody nuts with a gun.
especially if that somebody had some big damn bad ass dogs they were keeping in their
yard!!! In the city chain link is everywhere in back yards, sometimes in front yard.
stuff grows up it, bushes are planted in front of it.
oh yeah... in Elm Grove, a really trying to be ritzy area next to my mothers they
have laws telling people what color they can paint their house. cant have above
ground pools. etc. etc. etc.
like I said. It is one thing to have that kind of deed restrictions, but to have it
creep up on people or after the fact who didnt buy into that in the first place is
another. Ingrid

"susabean" wrote:
Ok, I can see your point regarding property values and whathaveyou. I
probably wouldn't want to live next door to the person with the fence....but
not necessarily because of fence, but because of the person!

And where do the regulations stop?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Actually, you are right. When we put our house up for sale in Dallas, we never
expected to sell it in 9 days. I hadn't started looking for houses in Austin
yet. I had to buy a house and fast. This house was not my favorite, nor did I
want to live where any HOA was evident. I didn't want dues and restrictions to
the tenth power.

The one part of this property I loved were the old growth trees (which are
priceless in Texas) and the size of the property. I also liked the 2500 square
foot house. Perfect for the two of us.

It was the only new house which was almost finished. I looked at tons of older
homes and they either had shag carpet or were painted orange and olive green in
the kitchens, in other words, in need of renovation and I didn't want to do
that.

This whole discussion has gotten pretty ugly.


On Wed, 04 Jun 2003 14:06:22 GMT, wrote:

it is no mystery at all. one or more of the following.
there are people who buy a home as an "investment".
they are likely to get moved around the country by their jobs.
their company helps them buy their house, but only in certain areas.
they have no choice, it was all that was available or available on short notice.
they are very "just so people".
they like rules of conduct so they never have to deal with unpleasantness directly.
Ingrid

llama mama wrote:
why move into a development at all?
there are just so many things wrong with homoginized communities, it's
difficult to comprehend why anyone would subject themself to one.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

wrote in message
...
it is no mystery at all. one or more of the following.
there are people who buy a home as an "investment".
they are likely to get moved around the country by their jobs.
their company helps them buy their house, but only in certain areas.
they have no choice, it was all that was available or available on short
notice.
they are very "just so people".
they like rules of conduct so they never have to deal with unpleasantness
directly.
Ingrid

wrote in message
...

It is one thing to have that kind of deed restrictions, but to have it
creep up on people or after the fact who didnt buy into that in the first
place is
another. Ingrid

I don't know why people keep saying that deed restrictions "creep up on
people" or that they "didn't buy into that in the first place." You have
been sold a bill of goods if you believe that. Deed restrictions are a
matter of public record. You can go to the courthouse and ask for a copy.
There is nothing mysterious or covert about deed restriction. Such
restrictions can exist and be enforced with or without a homeowner's
association. Also, you either bought into or didn't buy into a development
with a homeowner's association. They don't spring up in the middle of the
night. A person may find that their land has been rezoned. That is a
completely different matter. Times change. Zoning changes grandfather in
non-complying structures and uses. I suspect that the occasional squeaky
wheel who becomes unhappy because they are prevented from doing what they
want misrepresents the facts. I have seen this happen at meetings. People
claim they never agreed to the covenants and restrictions. In reality they
signed a "Planned Unit Development Rider" at closing. The multiple listing
service clearly indicates the existence of a homeowner's association and the
amount of the dues. When there is a transfer of ownership the county
notifies the HOA which in turn sends out a letter and a copy of the rules
(which are also on file at the courthouse.)

How could someone be under the control of a HOA when they didn't "buy into
that in the first place?" How can deed restrictions change after they buy a
property?

(paghat) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

"Charlie" wrote:

I've never heard of restrictions on this sort of thing. America really
puzzles me sometimes.

I'm sure other countries have some communities like this. A variety of
planned communities have sprung up over the last 20-30. This is where
a small twon is virtually planned. Everything matches, there are color
schemes. More afluent commuities try to do similar things. Trust me
this only happens in well-to-do areas, often within sometimes gated
communities with clearly defined property limits. People pay to live
in these manicured suburbias. They have commitees that run them. Older
natural neighborhoods don't have such extremes. While town/city
ordances might adopt certain limitations on grass height to avoid
fires it would never apply to city-owned properties especially those
in poorer parts of town since they are the ones the city will allow to
be regularly overgrown with 5 foot high wild grasses and weeds.

These communities began for racist reasons, as when the idea of Civil

Yes every single one in the world was created solely by the KKK. I
know I was present at every one.

Your rabid arguments go to such extremes that you make yourself and
your views cartoonish. The Boondocks are far more effective at
communicating racism than your speechs.


DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)

I think he was talking about the guy with the pink house, after all, it had been
a FARM for 60+ years, nothing in or on the deeds as to what they could or
couldn't paint the house, what kind of fence or anything else. Now with the city
folks buying land and building homes and out of the clear blue sky they are
being told what they can and can't do to their home. SCREW THAT.


--
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towards an east that would not know another dawn.
But elsewhere the Stars were still young and the light of morning lingered: and
along the path he once had followed, Man would one day go again.

Arthur C. Clarke "The City & The Stars"

SIAR
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"Vox Humana" wrote in message
.. .

wrote in message
...

It is one thing to have that kind of deed restrictions, but to have it
creep up on people or after the fact who didnt buy into that in the first
place is
another. Ingrid

I don't know why people keep saying that deed restrictions "creep up on
people" or that they "didn't buy into that in the first place." You have
been sold a bill of goods if you believe that. Deed restrictions are a
matter of public record. You can go to the courthouse and ask for a copy.
There is nothing mysterious or covert about deed restriction. Such
restrictions can exist and be enforced with or without a homeowner's
association. Also, you either bought into or didn't buy into a development
with a homeowner's association. They don't spring up in the middle of the
night. A person may find that their land has been rezoned. That is a
completely different matter. Times change. Zoning changes grandfather in
non-complying structures and uses. I suspect that the occasional squeaky
wheel who becomes unhappy because they are prevented from doing what they
want misrepresents the facts. I have seen this happen at meetings. People
claim they never agreed to the covenants and restrictions. In reality they
signed a "Planned Unit Development Rider" at closing. The multiple listing
service clearly indicates the existence of a homeowner's association and the
amount of the dues. When there is a transfer of ownership the county
notifies the HOA which in turn sends out a letter and a copy of the rules
(which are also on file at the courthouse.)

How could someone be under the control of a HOA when they didn't "buy into
that in the first place?" How can deed restrictions change after they buy a
property?




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"Starlord" wrote in message
news
I think he was talking about the guy with the pink house, after all, it
had been
a FARM for 60+ years, nothing in or on the deeds as to what they could or
couldn't paint the house, what kind of fence or anything else. Now with
the city
folks buying land and building homes and out of the clear blue sky they
are
being told what they can and can't do to their home. SCREW THAT.



Unless we know the details of the situation it is futile to discuss it. The
only point that I am making is that if you sign an agreement to abide by the
covenants and restrictions that are a part of your deed then you must live
by your word. You have entered into a contract with the other home owners.
If you don't like the terms of the contract then you should simply move on.
There are precious few situations where you can do anything that you want
simply because you own a piece of property. Between building codes, zoning,
deed restrictions, and civil and criminal codes, you are severely limited to
what you can do.

If it didnt speak to how harassed and anguished my mothers is I would say this is
almost funny... but her sister (my aunt) who lives down the hill from my mom has been
a long time peace advocate and not mouth, walking the picket lines and doing. In
exasperation my mother asked "what do you do with someone like that?" and without
missing a beat my aunt said "shoot em".
Ingrid

Janet Baraclough wrote:
"Mental cases"? Do you mean, people with a mental illness? I would
have thought that a Buddhist like yourself would believe that what they
deserve is care and compassion.

Janet.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

there were no rules like this when she moved into an agricultural area. the fences
were barbed wire (which we found posts and remnants of as we put up the fence). in
fact the rules were you HAD to fence in livestock. and all the original inhabitants
of the area (with 2+ acres each) had high fences around their veggie gardens to keep
rabbits and deer out. they did not make provisions for those who were already here
for many years. In effect, they changed the rules (ordinances). They are
increasingly restrictive on what can and cant be done on ones own property whether or
not it can be seen by anybody. So, for example, nobody in the city can put up a
fence around their vegetables to keep the rabbits out. even wood fences must be 50%
open (careful with picket fences cause some of those wont meet specs either). and of
course, the laws are only enforced when somebody turns into a bloody Bitch.

this city has been destroyed by "developers". they had the money to buy themselves
into power and immediately started developing the abundant wetlands. they ran out of
land that passed perk tests, so they forced a sewer system onto everyone in order to
spread the cost so new construction (developers) would get a break. and everyone
pays the same no matter what the situation... elderly on fixed incomes (many had to
sell their homes of 50+ years because they couldnt afford the hookup), small house
with 1 bathroom worth 50K, huge new house with 5 bathrooms at 300K, etc. everyone
paid the same. well except for my mother with her long drive. She had to pay 40,000
to get hooked up. nobody was grand fathered in, like when the house is sold then the
sewer will be attached. the money grubbing politicians completely rewrote the zoning
laws and allowed huge homes to be built on 1/4 acres in swamps on pads. pads are
like when camping one often sees "pads" or high areas where one pitches the tent.
well these homes are built on pads that stick out into the swamps and wetlands. they
filled in other wetlands and built huge business parks... And every kind of strip
mall and chain store is there. It has become such a commercial piece of crap that
all over Wisconsin people fight development citing Brookfield of an example of
development gone totally insane. People who built on land years ago that had good
perk for their own sewers, and were forced onto city sewer have had raw sewage backed
up into their basements for the first time since the houses were built. The city
doesnt pay to have their houses decontaminated. oops. sorry. The roads are flooded
in heavy rains since the water has no where to go from all the in filling and the
acres and acres of concrete. It has become an ugly, horrible city. Of course, now
the mayor and her henchmen the developers are gone on to other places to exploit, and
in 40 years it will be a decaying mess ready for urban renewal. There are already
empty stores from over building.

And there is my mother, a peasant from Yugoslavia who came to this country at 8, went
thru school to become a social worker, who's one abiding passion has been gardening
so they moved to the "country" 60 years ago so she could raise veggies but especially
flowers and make a spot of beauty. And all the neighbors would come to look at
everything flowering and she would give plants to them so they could also make
beauty. But when she was in her 70's we found she had been falling over the little
fences she put up around the flowers to keep the rabbits out (which werent working
anyway) and thought it would be safer to put up a fence around her garden area. Well
the BITCH also made her remove part of this fence too.. never mind she would have to
be standing IN my mothers front yard to see that fence. Thankfully, the city
inspectors have not required we remove the entire fence that abuts other lot lines or
cross our own (oh yes, it is illegal to put up a wire fence ANYWHERE on ones own
property). All we could do to prevent rabbits from coming in along that wild brush
area was plant little pine trees and surround each one with circles of mesh fencing..
which just happen to touch. Because just inside that area my mother has put in a
nature walk with wild flowers under the heavy trees and between the lichen and moss
covered boulders they put there when they built the house.
Rules should make sense. They should have a very damn good purpose and they should
not be applied arbitrarily. If these "laws" were so damn important, so damned
necessary for the "general good" why not fund "fence police" to go around making sure
everyone was in compliance? Why not publish these "very important new laws" so
everyone DOES know about them. Because sure as hell having rules that no one knows
about, that people routinely break or even ignore leads to complete contempt for law.
Ingrid

"Warren" wrote:
Let me see if I get this straight. Ignorance of the law is an excuse? Or
the rules your mother broke weren't in black and white on paper? Or if
the local government doesn't have you sign a piece of paper that you've
read and understand all the applicable rules, laws and ordanences, they
shouldn't apply to you.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

this is all confused. Victoria was not talking about the farmer she was talking
about the deer hanger on the basketball hoop who DID sign a contract with
restrictions. Ingrid

Ann wrote:

animaux expounded:

Do you honestly find that to be fair to the rest of the homeowners?

Those homeowners moved into *his* neighborhood, and then tried to tell
him what to do with his land. Tough shit!. He was there first. Their
HOA applied to them, not to the original owner. Do you really think
just because you move into a neighborhood you can tell everyone who
was already there what they can do? Thank god I don't live near
anyone who thinks like that!



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

different towns, different rules. In moms "city" they had a public hearing about
changing the burning rules. For as long as we been there burning was allowed
tuesday, thursday and saturday weather permitting. Many of the older residents like
my mother have a lot of dead wood on their large 2+ acre lots. same with garden
refuse that is buggy. But some of the new people moving into the McMansions on 1/4
acre lots wanted to ban burning cause anybody burning leaves on their property is
going to have the smoke end up in somebodys house. Well those that went to the
hearing overwhelmingly were against any further ban on burning. The council passed
the burning ban ANYWAY and it took the concerted efforts of some very irate citizens
putting a lot of time and energy into a referendum recalling the damn ban. Which,
when it went to vote was overwhelmingly defeated. Sadly, none of the other
restrictive laws are required to be on referendums and since almost nobody knows
about them until they run afoul of the law, nobody cares. Just the control freaks
(or those with other agendas) with money and time to get elected sit around making up
more and more rules to satisfy themselves and limit everyone elses freedom.
Like I said. Each city should be allowed 100 laws, no more. want a new one, get rid
of one. And have mediation boards to handle disputes. Ingrid

Ann wrote:
One year some newbies to town decided that they didn't like people
bringing their work trucks home, they tried to impose a 9,000 lb
limit on vehicles that could be put in a driveway. That was voted
down soundly at town meeting,


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

And why not. If there isnt a law against fences the person doesnt want to see it can
just build a fence so they dont have to look at it. Ingrid

"Vox Humana" wrote:
Why draw the line at tractor trailers? If a person makes his/her living
driving a big rig, does that make them a second class citizen in your town
as compared to the Maytag repair man? After all, if you pay the mortgage
payments and the taxes shouldn't you be entitled to park what ever you want
in the driveway? I believe that is your position.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

In article ,
says...
Let us
therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that, if the
British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still
say, "This was their finest hour."

Winston Churchill
House of Commons, June18th 1940

I've always liked that grumpy old man. But he was part American so we
can claim him too :[).

--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

well this is another story of the Saga of the Lot Wars. Now that we had a green WOOD
fence, I decided to string those little white twinkle lights down the entire line so
coming home in the dark there would be something lit and cheerful along the otherwise
dark driveway. The lights also severed to mark where there to guide the snow plow. of
course my mothers porch was completely festooned in lights! and at the end of the
drive we had a nice fake green wreath with lights hanging on the fence. In order to
get those little lights to work we had to run heavy duty 100+ foot extensions down
the road, tucked under the leaves against the fence. As we were putting em up across
the split rail THE BITCH was out the door with camera in hand taking pictures. Those
lights went on thru mid february, and then we pulled the plug. THE BITCH called the
city and complained about the lights. So the city got a policy can run extension
cords for Christmas lights, but being Jewish we couldnt have them out there for
ummm... lets say Purim or Passover. We had to take up the extension cords that
nobody could see unless they were standing on my mothers driveway and pushing the
leaves aside. Then the BITCH had the gaul to leave a letter in the mailbox telling
my mother how disturbed people were with the Christmas wreath being out there long
after Christmas.
YUP. Pink Flamingos with santa outfits, then bunny outfits, then 4th of july
outfits. you bet. Ingrid

wrote:
You go too far, paghat. Christmas lights are one of the joys of those
dark, bleak, garden less and sunless months of winter. I'm not even
religious. I just like all the pretty lights.

Swyck



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.