In article , "Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D.
P.A." wrote:

GSHATTERHAND wrote:

I need help with a very basic project. Our new cedar fence was finally
finished
Saturday, nine weeks after we ordered it and 4 weeks past passed the
promised
completion date. This has created a perfect spot for a flower bed along the
fence.

But how do I turn the strip along the fence, which is now grass, into the
nicely cultivated soil of a flower bed?

I have to use basic garden tools, no power tools. Can I just turn the
soil over
with a shovel, burying the grass, and then break up the soil? Will the grass
die under the soil or grow back? (The grass that was under the piles of soil
from the fence post holes sure seems dead after only a week.)

Or must I somehow kill or remove the grass first, before turning the soil?
Removing the grass without also taking a lot of top soil seems almost
impossible. Any advice on this would be appreciated.

Scalp the bed with a mower. Cover with newspapers and mulch. Dig in
a few perennials now if you like. Wait.

I use the newspaper method myself, but I do flip sod upside-down first, so
that the roots have even less chance of surviving long enough to grow any
grass back when the newpaper has composted, & even more so that the ground
will be "worked" & loosened under the newspaper thus better prepped for
shrub & flower plantings. It's also a chance to work in some nitrogen
fertilizer, which hastens the speed of the barriered grass's composting, &
enriches the whole soil area for future planting.

When sod is not upturned first, I've found it can sometimes out-last the
paper & return in spots. On the roadside, though, when I didn't want to
suffer the work of upturning a long stretch of weeds & grass, I laid down
cardboard instead of paper, which takes a bit longer to decay & does in
everything it barriers very nicely. The resulting soil is unworked though,
so more work is needed at the time of planting.

It takes about seven layers of paper to last long enough to kill all sod,
& covering the newspaper with a thin layer of dark well composted steer
manure makes it look tidy & loamy, while waiting for the grass to be done
in. Though well-composted steer manure looks like rich dark topsoil, it is
not; weeds don't grow in sterile compost very well, so a topcoating
functions as a surface weed retardant.

Rolls of butcher paper can be purchased for the same purpose, & don't
require so many layers, & there's a heavy grade of "gardening paper" just
for this purpose sold in some garden catalogs, but obviously newspapers
saved for this use incur no additional cost.

Once I used plastic garden fabric instead of paper, I don't know why I
stupidly thought the barrier needed to last longer than paper does. I
planted some things in holes cut in the fabric barrier. A year later it
was such a hassle getting that plastic out, when had it just been
newspaper it would've been pure compost demanding no tearing at a new
garden to get rid of it. I hope whoever was the inventor of garden fabric
died a horrible violent death.

Sometimes I can't wait for the grass to be killed & the paper to fully
compost before I plant stuff, so I spade right through the newspaper to
dig a hole for whatever plantings. This gives a spot where the grass's
roots can survive & regrow, so the hole has to be extra wide, then paper
laid anew around the the edges of the new planting & again covered with
compost. Any paper that is exposed takes a long time to break down (or
never does), but underneath compost, the worms eat up the paper in just
about exactly the amount of time it takes all the upturned sod to itself
compost into fertile loam.

I tried all sorts of methods in the past but this paper barriering method
is the big winner. If one is in no hurry to plant an area, extensive areas
can be prepped by building up with filldirt mixed with unfinished compost.
This year I built a long raised bed behind stackable stones, filling the
area up with weedy sod, miscellaneous clippings & stems. A nice mix of
dirt with "greens & browns" not at all composted will compost right there
in place. This would obviously become a weed-patch if just left, but I
covered it over with unfolded & flattened cardboard boxes & newspaper
layers, put composted manure on top just so it looked like topsoil, & I
will plant that area next year after the dirt & sod & clippings are all
fully composted. Might need a bit more dirt & finished compost on top
merely because it'll shrink down behind the stacked-stone barrier as the
organic component decays, but will otherwise not even need stirring to be
exceptionally rich soil for next spring.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

paghat wrote:

I use the newspaper method myself, but I do flip sod upside-down first, so
that the roots have even less chance of surviving long enough to grow any
grass back when the newpaper has composted, & even more so that the ground
will be "worked" & loosened under the newspaper thus better prepped for
shrub & flower plantings.

I don't get it; why bother with the newspaper if you're going to
the trouble of cutting off the sod anyway? Why not just flip the
sod and cover with manure and/or topsoil? The point of the
newspaper is so you don't have to do any digging or sod stripping
at all.

- Alex

On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:19:30 -0400, Alexander Pensky
wrote:



I wish I had that much patience! I buy lots and lots of perennials
on impulse and just stick them in the ground wherever there's a few
inches of room left. After a season or two of growing, it becomes
obvious if they're in the wrong spot, and I dig them up and move
them.

Ditto, I have not that much patience


My "lazy man's gardening" experiment for this year is: for any of
my perennials which look like they might propagate OK from stem
or softwood cuttings, I am taking some cuttings and just jamming
them into the ground in a flower bed. I want to see which ones
are so easy-to-grow that I can succeed this way without rooting
hormone or plastic baggies or misting or any of that nonsense.

Hmmm have to try that.


So far the herbs have been the most promising. Common thyme,
in particular, grows like wildfire if you just rip out a handful,
toss it on the ground somewhere else, and bury it under good
soil with a few shoots sticking out. (As long as there are some
roots on the handful.)

Anyone else admit to doing this?

Yes indeed with Thyme and Oregano in particular.


- Alex

Dave
Dave Fouchey, WA4EMR
http://photos.yahoo.com/davefouchey
Southeastern Lower Michigan
42° 35' 20'' N,
82° 58' 37'' W
GMT Offset: -5
Time Zone: Eastern

I really appreciate all the information on using layers of newspaper over the
sod, and compost and soil over that. But I want to be certain of one
thing......once I've laid down the newspaper, and covered it with compost and
soil, is there any reason I can't immediately plant annuals in my new flower
bed? Do I have to wait for any reason? I'm hoping to put my couple dozen
house-grown giant celosia in my new full sun flowerbed.

In the UK in Victorian times no garden was without it loam wall. this was
made of turf cut about 2 inches thick and then placed face down layer by
layer,
All the grass died except for the very outside edge, and in a year or so
broke down to give a very high grade Loam which was used for making potting
compost.
I often use this method to make retaining walls in the garden as we are on a
slope, gives a good wall and very fertile.
In your case you could pot the soil back on your new flower bed after a year
or so.
The alternative is to double dig the bed, working the turf into the lower
spit. Hard work but will give you a good bed, at the same time you could
work manure or compost into the lower layer.
In Victorian gardens it was normal to double dig all veg garden once a year,
and to treble dig about every 3 years.

--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk

GSHATTERHAND wrote:

I really appreciate all the information on using layers of newspaper over the
sod, and compost and soil over that. But I want to be certain of one
thing......once I've laid down the newspaper, and covered it with compost and
soil, is there any reason I can't immediately plant annuals in my new flower
bed? Do I have to wait for any reason? I'm hoping to put my couple dozen
house-grown giant celosia in my new full sun flowerbed.

You can certainly plant there right away, either annuals or perennials.
As I mentioned earlier, unless your new plants are very shallow-rooted
types, you will want to dig each one a planting hole which goes all the
way down through the newspaper and the sod, so that the roots have
somewhere to go. By next year, the newspaper will be gone and you
won't have to bother cutting through it to plant.

- Alex

On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 13:06:18 -0700, (paghat)
wrote:
In article , "Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D.
P.A." wrote:
snip
Scalp the bed with a mower. Cover with newspapers and mulch. Dig in
a few perennials now if you like. Wait.
snip some more
I tried all sorts of methods in the past but this paper barriering method
is the big winner. If one is in no hurry to plant an area, extensive areas
can be prepped by building up with filldirt mixed with unfinished compost.
This year I built a long raised bed behind stackable stones, filling the
area up with weedy sod, miscellaneous clippings & stems. A nice mix of
dirt with "greens & browns" not at all composted will compost right there
in place. This would obviously become a weed-patch if just left, but I
covered it over with unfolded & flattened cardboard boxes & newspaper
layers, put composted manure on top just so it looked like topsoil, & I
will plant that area next year after the dirt & sod & clippings are all
fully composted. Might need a bit more dirt & finished compost on top
merely because it'll shrink down behind the stacked-stone barrier as the
organic component decays, but will otherwise not even need stirring to be
exceptionally rich soil for next spring.
-paghat the ratgirl
I've been thinking of trying this, but how long will I have to wait
before it'll be ready for planting?

I want to clear some lawn and seed it with wildflowers. If I were to
put down newspaper now (or soon anyway), and place some sod on top,
would I be able to seed this fall, or even next spring? And what do
you mean by sod -- bags of topsoil from Home Depot, or just dirt from
other parts of the garden?

Swyck

"GSHATTERHAND" wrote in message
...
Subject: How Does A Lawn Become A Flower Bed?
From: Alexander Pensky

Be advised: removing the sod is long and tiring work, much harderthan
just
turning the soil over.

I know! I confess I was hoping someone knew a easier way.

The easier way is a power sod cutter. But you don't want to rent power
tools.

Bob

(GSHATTERHAND) wrote in
:

Subject: How Does A Lawn Become A Flower Bed?
From: Alexander Pensky

Be advised: removing the sod is long and tiring work, much harderthan
just turning the soil over.

I know! I confess I was hoping someone knew a easier way.

If you want an easy way to kill grass, level the surface and then stick a
sheet of glass over the desired area for a couple of hours on a sunny day.
I'll leave it to someone else to elucidate us on what effect this has on
the soil organisms as I don't know. You can also do this with sheets of
polypropylene although it'll likely take much longer and friendly
earthworms might not know enough to escape. -wild speculation. A side
benefit is soil solarization supposedly gets rid of verticulum and fusarium
viruses.

Follow up with a couple of layers of newspaper and topsoil as others have
mentioned and you should be good to go.

- Salty "I know how to kill plants" Thumb

Alexander Pensky wrote:

paghat wrote:

I use the newspaper method myself, but I do flip sod upside-down first, so
that the roots have even less chance of surviving long enough to grow any
grass back when the newpaper has composted, & even more so that the ground
will be "worked" & loosened under the newspaper thus better prepped for
shrub & flower plantings.

I don't get it; why bother with the newspaper if you're going to
the trouble of cutting off the sod anyway? Why not just flip the
sod and cover with manure and/or topsoil?

Turning the soil can bring up dormant weed seeds.

The point of the
newspaper is so you don't have to do any digging or sod stripping
at all.

It creates a comfortable blanket for earthworms and other beneficials.
The soil gets dug, loosened, and fed with no further effort on your part
save waiting until fall.

David J Bockman wrote:

The simplest way is to deliniate the area you wish to convert (I use garden
hose to play with the shape until it looks good) and then spray it with
Roundup. After 10 days or so, you can plant right in wherever you wish and
mulch/edge the space.

Dave

I agree completely; but I don't think you have to wait that long before
planting. The dead grass will break down into the soil if you bury it with
mulch or topsoil. You can dig it all in and add more compost next spring.

Best regards,
Bob

"Alexander Pensky" wrote in message
...

I don't get it; why bother with the newspaper if you're going to
the trouble of cutting off the sod anyway? Why not just flip the
sod and cover with manure and/or topsoil?

Removing and composting the sod will eliminate weed seeds just waiting for
the chance to sprout. It is the best way I've found to get a quick weed free
garden.

Bob

Bob wrote:
"Alexander Pensky" wrote in message
...


I don't get it; why bother with the newspaper if you're going to
the trouble of cutting off the sod anyway? Why not just flip the
sod and cover with manure and/or topsoil?


Removing and composting the sod will eliminate weed seeds just waiting for
the chance to sprout. It is the best way I've found to get a quick weed free
garden.


No argument there. My question was, if you are going to
remove the sod, why would you ALSO cover with newspaper?

Hi Bob,

While I sort of agree, the industry standard up here is to wait 7-10 days in
order to get maximum degradation of the glyphosphate. I worked a very large
planting bed that was established this way about 3 years ago, and as an
experiment I also laid in a lot of organic material (cow manure, rotted oak
leaf) on top of the Roundup'd grass in most of the areas before mulching in.
That is to say, I sprayed the turf, waited 10 days, amended thickly, planted
in, and mulched. Those areas this year are *very* rich looking and the tilth
and organic matter extend down a good 10 inches into the soil...

Dave

"zxcvbob" wrote in message
...
David J Bockman wrote:

The simplest way is to deliniate the area you wish to convert (I use
garden
hose to play with the shape until it looks good) and then spray it with
Roundup. After 10 days or so, you can plant right in wherever you wish
and
mulch/edge the space.

Dave

I agree completely; but I don't think you have to wait that long before
planting. The dead grass will break down into the soil if you bury it
with
mulch or topsoil. You can dig it all in and add more compost next spring.

Best regards,
Bob

.....AND.....do the work early in the morning and late in the day, when it's
cooler. So what if the whole bed takes 3 weeks? Think of it as meditation.
:-)