I been to NY a few times, wouldnt want to live there altho my DH did and my in laws
did at one time. there is research showing that green spaces and plants of all kinds
have a tremendous effect on quality of life. No city should be without them. the
point is not to give up and say "it is a huge city". it needs more green BECAUSE it
is a huge city. However, that issue was picked simply cause it was first in the line
and had a garden theme.
There was constant commentary on TV about how disliked he was before 9-11. Nothing
about his wonderful achievements.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/s...595523,00.html
"He was yesterday's man. His awkward, abrasive character was foreground, his
achievements obscured. In the summer, he had become a lead player in a Whitehall
farce of marital mayhem: Rudy chooses a press conference to tell his wife, Donna, he
is leaving her for another woman, Judith. Donna calls her own press conference, then
kicks Rudy out of the official home."

that sums up the impression I got. Ingrid

animaux wrote:
Ingrid, no disrespect, but NYC is not the place to move if gardening is your
desire in life.
He was loved way before 9/11 hit.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

several applications of Bt are not used. in many (most?) fields application is not
needed at all. spraying of anything is not done unless there is an explosion of
pests in a field because spraying for a few pests is not cost effective. So most
fields of corn do not get sprayed.

having Bt in every cell of the corn means the corn borers are always exposed to the
pesticide and guarantees selection for resistant corn borers. there are ways around
this, but farmers arent doing what is needed.
Ingrid

Lar wrote:
If it is all about the Monarch then the choices are the
pollen of the genetically altered corn effecting one
generation of caterpillar within 200 feet of the crop
that is in it's two weeks phase of pollination and the
pollen can be washed off by rain, or having crops
treated with a BT insecticide that is designed to adhere
to the plant thus lasting longer and will need several
applications throughout the growing season causing harm
to several generations of larvae or having the crop
treated several times in the growing season with a non
selective insecticide not only possibly killing Monarch
larvae but adults and many other type of non target
insects.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

It is of course better than chemical pesticides. the issue is one or more companies
using it in a way that guarantees pest resistance in a short period of time.
example only
100,000 farmers use it on a couple crops a year for the next 100+ years.
1,000 big agribusinesses use it all the time IN crops for the next 10 years and then
all the corn borers are Bt resistant.

GM uses good alternatives and makes a big quick profit vs lots of farmers using it
maybe forever. Ingrid

Frogleg wrote:
I find it odd that some of the same people who are adamently against
the use of chemical pesticides are equally against a technology
designed to *reduce* the use of those same chemicals. Bacillus
thuringiensis is generally regarded as a relatively benign control for
specific food pests.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

you are correct, it is not considered organic. However, that is not stopping
Monsanto et al to attempt to get the FDA and whomever else to write the
rules/regulations to include GMO foods as "organic".
Ingrid

"Shannon" wrote:
It is my understanding that genetically modified food is not considered
organic, though. Am I wrong?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/tex...27_milk12.html
"There has never been a greater gap between what a Seattle-Tacoma consumer pays
for milk and what Washington farmers receive for that milk," the Washington State
Public Interest Research Group (WashPIRG) says in a report released today.
Quoting from data on the U.S. Department of Agriculture's (USDA) Web site, the
group says the average price for a gallon of whole milk in this area in July was
$3.52, while the government-set farm price was $1, second-lowest in the nation after
the upper Midwest region, which was 99 cents."
this article includes some reasons milk prices are so high.

1. I live in Wisconsin, the dairy state. There is (was?) a gradient with Wisconsin
farmers getting the least in price support and price support getting higher as the
distance from Wisconsin increases ... i.e. California gets the most. Most dairy
farms in Wisconsin (my grandparents) were family farms, most dairy farms in Cal are
agribusiness.
2. I live in Wisconsin, the dairy state. I turn on the local NPR and hear about how
farmers are getting screwed with such low prices for their milk that many family
farms are going out of business or getting out of the dairy business. At the same
time people in Wisconsin are paying extremely high prices for milk. Wisconsin is a
big "got milk" state (not that I can drink it). Thus ensues a big debate on what the
HELL is going on. Senator Russ Feingold (WI) was been trying to get that "Wisconsin
farmers get the lowest price supports" repealed. The idea at the time was to make
sure all states were producing enough LOCAL milk for all the children and keep the
prices low.

no one knows how many farmers are using rBGH cause they are not required to report
same to anybody and Monsanto isnt saying either. But when the stuff came out around
1992 farmers were telling me (I was running for Congress at the time) that they were
being pressured by Monsanto to use the stuff. I was part of a bipartisan group that
worked to get Wisconsin to pass laws allowing labeling of milk as rBGH free (tommy
thompson did sign it) to protect farmers from the wrath of Monsanto who was suing
anybody labeling their products rBGH free. I did see rBGH free labeled milk for a
few years, but dont see it anymore... well except Ben and Jerry's ice cream.
Ingrid


"Darwin Vander Stelt" wrote:
... snip


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

I wonder if the corn borers could become resistant to a natural organism?
Which, to my understanding is what the Bt is - a bacteria that affects only
the borer? Much like those mosquito dunks you use in ponds -- it affects
only the mosquito larvae - I think it's also some type of Bt. If I am
wrong, please correct me.

LeeAnne

wrote in message
...
It is of course better than chemical pesticides. the issue is one or more
companies
using it in a way that guarantees pest resistance in a short period of
time.
example only
100,000 farmers use it on a couple crops a year for the next 100+ years.
1,000 big agribusinesses use it all the time IN crops for the next 10
years and then
all the corn borers are Bt resistant.

GM uses good alternatives and makes a big quick profit vs lots of farmers
using it
maybe forever. Ingrid

You are correct, I used the wrong word - my apologies (seriously). I
realize there is a huge difference, my bad.

LeeAnne

"Frankhartx" wrote in message
...
rom: Ann
Newsgroups: rec.gardens


there is a huuuuge difference between GMO(genetically modifyed organism)
corn
and "organic corn". They are not the same thing.

No one is at all confused about that.

Except the originator of this thread

Now that I think of it - shouldn't the bumper sticker have said "GM Corn
Kills....yadda yadda yadda"?

LeeAnne


"Just another fan" wrote in message
news:5pB_a.20668$Qe.3180@fed1read04...
WOW, now we have GM trolls putting out bumperstickers!!!!


"LeeAnne" wrote in message
...
I saw a bumper sticker on a car yesterday that said something like
"Organic
Corn Kills Monarch Butterflies, What Next?!?!"

Anybody have any input on this? Anybody heard of this? I'm off to
google
it
....

~LeeAnne

--
------
If you're an insomniac, agnostic, dyslexic do you lay
awake at night wondering if there is a dog?
-----

the natural organism, bacteria, is capable of mutation unlike the protein inserted
into the corn. Yes, if the Bt is over used without letting resistant borers
interbreed with sensitive ones, they could become resistant. however, dont know how
much the specific toxic protein can change. lets say resistant corn borers are
everywhere and if somebody does isolate a new Bt that corn borer is not resistant to,
then how much will the company charge farmers for the new improved and patented
version? right now Bt is cheap.
compare that with Bt israeli which is the variation used against mosquitoes. yes, it
also kills midges, so not 100% specific. Ingrid

"LeeAnne" wrote:
I wonder if the corn borers could become resistant to a natural organism?
Which, to my understanding is what the Bt is - a bacteria that affects only
the borer? Much like those mosquito dunks you use in ponds -- it affects
only the mosquito larvae - I think it's also some type of Bt. If I am
wrong, please correct me.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

So what else is new? Of course the grocery chains exploit the price
inelasticity of milk. If they price it cheap, you won't buy a gallon more,
and it can go pretty high before you buy a gallon less. They defend
themselves by saying that price changes confuse consumers and they would
rather not raise it when farm prices go up. Farmers have always been at the
mercy of processors and supermarket chains, but, co-operative ventures into
milk bottleing have usually ended up with the co-op not being able to
compete for one reason or another, and the farmer -owners taking another
bath. So maybe processing and marketing actually costs money. Ya think?
Milk marketing is a screwed up mess (in my humble opinion) with all sorts of
complex twists and turns. The gov't support price has been very low and
no-one could produce milk for any length of time for those prices. The 2000
farm bill essentially tacked on a deficiency payment capped at $37,500 so
that dairies under 150 cows have an effective floor of $12/cwt. Larger
western dairies have been getting an effective price around $10/cwt because
for 1000+ cows the deficiency payment is inconsequential. The recent surplus
was caused because the normal (past 50 years) process of little dairies
getting sold to bigger ones got interupted. The little ones are hanging on
with the gov't payment, and the bigger ones are getting killed. We've had a
lot of heat in the west and that has helped dry up the surplus, and prices
have moved nearly $3, but it may go down again by winter. I have never seen
the ag banks so afraid of dairy credits.

You must not confuse the federal marketing order system with the support
system. The federal marketing order system is not a price support mechanism.
Marketing order prices begin with market prices established on the floor of
the Chicago Board of Trade cheese auctions, and also from a survey of prices
paid or received by wholesalers. The federal order system mainly aims at
giving all farmers an equal price and all handlers equal raw product costs.
It seeks to eliminate the phenomenon of my neighbor gets one price and I get
another. It discourages processors from beating farmers over the head to
reduce raw product costs. And that system has gotten ridiculously complex
(partly because they have to use prices to move milk to its highest and most
efficient use) and I can assure you, neither of us has the time to
understand it completely. Suffice it to say there has always been a lot of
regional grousing about who is getting screwed by whom. Not many westerners
feel sorry for Wisconsin dairymen.

I do agree with you that milk ought to be labeled for bst. Why not? Damn
monsanto and the venal Republicans (and Democrats)!
wrote in message
...
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/tex...27_milk12.html
"There has never been a greater gap between what a Seattle-Tacoma
consumer pays
for milk and what Washington farmers receive for that milk," the
Washington State
Public Interest Research Group (WashPIRG) says in a report released today.
Quoting from data on the U.S. Department of Agriculture's (USDA) Web
site, the
group says the average price for a gallon of whole milk in this area in
July was
$3.52, while the government-set farm price was $1, second-lowest in the
nation after
the upper Midwest region, which was 99 cents."
this article includes some reasons milk prices are so high.

1. I live in Wisconsin, the dairy state. There is (was?) a gradient with
Wisconsin
farmers getting the least in price support and price support getting
higher as the
distance from Wisconsin increases ... i.e. California gets the most. Most
dairy
farms in Wisconsin (my grandparents) were family farms, most dairy farms
in Cal are
agribusiness.
2. I live in Wisconsin, the dairy state. I turn on the local NPR and
hear about how
farmers are getting screwed with such low prices for their milk that many
family
farms are going out of business or getting out of the dairy business. At
the same
time people in Wisconsin are paying extremely high prices for milk.
Wisconsin is a
big "got milk" state (not that I can drink it). Thus ensues a big debate
on what the
HELL is going on. Senator Russ Feingold (WI) was been trying to get that
"Wisconsin
farmers get the lowest price supports" repealed. The idea at the time was
to make
sure all states were producing enough LOCAL milk for all the children and
keep the
prices low.

no one knows how many farmers are using rBGH cause they are not required
to report
same to anybody and Monsanto isnt saying either. But when the stuff came
out around
1992 farmers were telling me (I was running for Congress at the time) that
they were
being pressured by Monsanto to use the stuff. I was part of a bipartisan
group that
worked to get Wisconsin to pass laws allowing labeling of milk as rBGH
free (tommy
thompson did sign it) to protect farmers from the wrath of Monsanto who
was suing
anybody labeling their products rBGH free. I did see rBGH free labeled
milk for a
few years, but dont see it anymore... well except Ben and Jerry's ice
cream.
Ingrid


"Darwin Vander Stelt" wrote:
... snip


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

"LeeAnne" wrote in
:

Now that I think of it - shouldn't the bumper sticker have said "GM Corn
Kills....yadda yadda yadda"?

LeeAnne

General Motors kills small green funny talking Jedi's on their farms?

wrote in
:

I been to NY a few times, wouldnt want to live there altho my DH did
and my in laws did at one time. there is research showing that green
spaces and plants of all kinds have a tremendous effect on quality of
life. No city should be without them. the point is not to give up
and say "it is a huge city". it needs more green BECAUSE it is a huge
city. However, that issue was picked simply cause it was first in the
line and had a garden theme.
There was constant commentary on TV about how disliked he was before
9-11. Nothing about his wonderful achievements.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/s...595523,00.html
"He was yesterday's man. His awkward, abrasive character was
foreground, his achievements obscured. In the summer, he had become a
lead player in a Whitehall farce of marital mayhem: Rudy chooses a
press conference to tell his wife, Donna, he is leaving her for
another woman, Judith. Donna calls her own press conference, then
kicks Rudy out of the official home."

that sums up the impression I got. Ingrid

I don't trust ex-CIA guys or their butt-buddies, but he seemed to be pretty
well liked when he hosted SNL (don't know if that was pre- or post- 9-11).
Of course it could have also been the free tickets and giant "CLAP" signs.

-- Salty

"Salty Thumb" wrote in message

Assuming that Bt corn is still only being used for animal feed, it
would seem that this issue is not about feeding people, but about
increasing the profit margins of meat producers.

"Darwin Vander Stelt" wrote in
:

And we sure as hell wouldn't want to do that!!

If it's a situation where Monsanto and their serfs want to move to Kansas
and turn it into a Dust Bowl for some spare change, I'd just as soon stand
in their way.

-- Salty

I know of no other city in America like New York with a park system unmatched by
any. Central Park is one of the largest public parks in America, in a giant
city. Then there's Riverside Park and the many, many other parks all over the
island of Manhattan. I lived there for 37 years. I didn't happen in as things
go, I am a native New Yorker.

If you lived there, you would see how people either live in magnificent
expensive apartments, or squalor on the streets in their own urine. It's one of
the world's most populated cities. The room for a few very small gardens is
insignificant, but put a 40 story building there and you have about 500
apartments.

There is an entire army of volunteer gardeners who garden every day in Central
Park. There are a lot of ways to experience green on Manhattan.

I lived in New York when Rudy was the prosecutor. I believe it was his team who
cranked down the mob related crimes of John Gotti and that ilk. He was
absolutely not disliked, he ran for two terms and was beloved by the city
dwellers for what he did way before 9-11. I know. I lived there most of my
life.


On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 15:47:38 GMT, wrote:

I been to NY a few times, wouldnt want to live there altho my DH did and my in laws
did at one time. there is research showing that green spaces and plants of all kinds
have a tremendous effect on quality of life. No city should be without them. the
point is not to give up and say "it is a huge city". it needs more green BECAUSE it
is a huge city. However, that issue was picked simply cause it was first in the line
and had a garden theme.
There was constant commentary on TV about how disliked he was before 9-11. Nothing
about his wonderful achievements.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/s...595523,00.html
"He was yesterday's man. His awkward, abrasive character was foreground, his
achievements obscured. In the summer, he had become a lead player in a Whitehall
farce of marital mayhem: Rudy chooses a press conference to tell his wife, Donna, he
is leaving her for another woman, Judith. Donna calls her own press conference, then
kicks Rudy out of the official home."

that sums up the impression I got. Ingrid

animaux wrote:
Ingrid, no disrespect, but NYC is not the place to move if gardening is your
desire in life.
He was loved way before 9/11 hit.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

In a simple one word answer, yes.


On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 12:40:39 -0400, "LeeAnne"
wrote:

I wonder if the corn borers could become resistant to a natural organism?
Which, to my understanding is what the Bt is - a bacteria that affects only
the borer? Much like those mosquito dunks you use in ponds -- it affects
only the mosquito larvae - I think it's also some type of Bt. If I am
wrong, please correct me.

LeeAnne

wrote in message
...
It is of course better than chemical pesticides. the issue is one or more
companies
using it in a way that guarantees pest resistance in a short period of
time.
example only
100,000 farmers use it on a couple crops a year for the next 100+ years.
1,000 big agribusinesses use it all the time IN crops for the next 10
years and then
all the corn borers are Bt resistant.

GM uses good alternatives and makes a big quick profit vs lots of farmers
using it
maybe forever. Ingrid