wrote:

I didnt see any of it, and I went to school with vets. How much of this did you
actually see in NY?
-snip-

Just as a datapoint-- I came home from Vietnam in July of 1970 to
rural upstate New York.

I was *never* disrespected, and was even thanked a few times. I also
drank for free for 30 days until I reported to first North Carolina,
then Virginia---- Nobody ever gave me shit about my service.


Maybe because I was a pretty lean mean 6'3"--- maybe I just never ran
into any idjits. There were a couple VVAW guys in the barracks in
VA. We all worked together during the week & went our separate ways
on the weekends.

Jim

escapee wrote:
-snip-
He got lucky and probably wasn't serving in wartime. If I am wrong, I thank you
and all your family for the service he did in combat, and during any training he
did for our great nation.

You're an ignorant putz. You should than every soldier no matter
where or when they served. If we don't have soldiers serving in
peacetime then we might as well close our doors forget this whole
democratic experiment.

Since it seems to matter to you [as you hide behind a alias], I am a
combat veteran-- I joined the Marines in 1968 and chose to go to
Vietnam. To even imply that soldiers that serve during peacetime
don't deserve every bit of the thanks of a grateful nation as those
of us who mucked through some war zone is the height of ignorance.

I love America. Freedom, however, is not free.

Nice bumper sticker--- use your head.
-snip-

Jim

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 03:45:22 GMT, (The Watcher) opined:

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:14:29 GMT, wrote:

if you take all the speeches he said and quoted out of context you could make him
sound like he was selling his mother into slavery if you wanted. it is called cut
and paste. it is made up. it is a lot of bushwa.

So when he's quoted one time saying the exact opposite of what he said the other
time it's made up? If that was true, it would be easy to deal with. The question
on his message forum doesn't seem to think it's quite that easy to deal with.
They seem to think there is some justification for the perception that he has
been Flip Flopping. Of course, they are his campaign people. What do they know?


If you are talking about voting for this war, you would be skating the issue.
Most who voted for this Iraq occupation and war did so under the guise of there
absolutely being an existence of WMD. Clearly, Collin Powell said to the UN
there absolutely were nuclear weapons, along with biological and chemical
weapons and they knew they had them. Facts are, they knew no such thing.

There are currently many in the position of having a say who have concurred
today that, they never would have voted for this occupation and war based on
this non-specific reason. There are no WMD. None. They'd have been used by
now.

Many of the members of Congress voted for the 87 million dollars who are now
saying they never would have approved that package if they knew then what they
know now.

V


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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 04:13:14 GMT, (The Watcher) opined:

I disagree with this. I think if a country has the guts to send soldiers to
fight a war, it OWES them at the least a welcome home of some sort. The welcome
they got from Vietnam was a disgrace.

We agree on this point. I make it my business when I see a Vet wearing a hat,
or any indication of his having served in Vietnam and I welcome him home. On
several occasions, over the years, men shook my hand with tears in their eyes
and thanked me for saying that. It was disgusting the way Vets were treated. I
had a boyfriend who was there and to this day (we're still in touch) he can't
talk about what happened in Vietnam. I recall many times if he heard a backfire
from a truck or car, he'd hit the deck in total fear. He absolutely has PTSD
and he's in his 50s now.

It might not be a cure, but treating veterans like pariahs probably doesn't help
them get any better, either.

Agreed...

V


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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 04:15:59 GMT, (The Watcher) opined:

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:59:10 GMT, escapee wrote:

I agree with everything you said, but indeed the returning soldiers were spat
on, and protested against, called baby killers and a whole barrage of horrible
things on TOP of their PTSD. Maybe where you live the soldiers were welcomed
home, but not in my part of the country, which was New York, at the time.

There were no welcome home parades, no facilities, or treatments. They were
denied everything that a person returning from bad wars should have received.

There was indeed damage to the men and whatever women who served. When they got
home, they were never celebrated for being freedom fighters. That's real.

I got to see the Moving Vietnam Wall Memorial in 2000 here in Arkansas. I saw a
lot of Vietnam vets there, and talked to lots of them. Plenty of them said they
had never been told "Welcome Home" and it did feel good to finally hear it.
Several of them actually had tears in their eyes when they said that, too.
I still don't know why that couldn't have been done back in 1975 or so. :/

Yes, that is extremely sad. They were only doing their job. Most of them were
drafted, not volunteers. The soldiers now are all volunteers, and they should
know that if they join there is that possibility of going off to war. I am
fully aware of that, but this time the government is not doing the right thing,
either.

Many soldiers went months without a shower when the war started. We were
sending my neighbor's 18 year old son socks, baby wipe type things to clean
himself, clean underwear, and chipped in for body armor. Shouldn't that have
been supplied?

As for soldiers with tears in their eyes, that has been my experience, also.
Those poor guys were treated like shit. I was against that war, but I wasn't
against the soldiers and I never fully understood the anarchists who spat on
them and did what they could to knock them down when they came home.

V


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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 04:39:45 GMT, (The Watcher) opined:

One of his biggest whoppers was his little cartoon of anti-gun propaganda.
During the cartoon(and elsewhere in the movie) he insinuated that people buy
guns because of fear. Some people do, but that's not the ONLY reason. Of course,
he didn't mention any other reasons, since other reasons might interfere with
his "mission". I own plenty of guns, and I didn't buy them out of fear.

While you have no way to determine why people other than you buy guns, this is
not a lie. It's a fact we have the highest mortality rate in the world as a
direct result of all the guns we have laying around. That is not propaganda,
it's a fact. I had a neighbor, a cop in Austin tell me to go out and buy a shot
gun and a 38 in case. In case of what? Someone is going to storm my house?
Why would he be driven to recommend that? He said it's for protection.
Protection from what? I live in an upper middle class, bedroom community in a
rural area. There's that, and I don't remember a cartoon about guns. I do
remember his factual reporting about how the NRA held their rally's in Columbine
the days after the shooting...and at other parts of the country. I saw the
leader of the NRA say something like, (paraphrase) you will have to take it from
my cold dead hand...when making reference to his rights to own a weapon.

Right, but the World Trade Center attack was planned for several years, probably
begun during the Clinton years, at least. Also, other terrorist attacks have
happened under other presidents, so this one isn't unique.

Have you read Richard Clark's book, or heard or saw him on the myriad interviews
he gave? This current administration was aware of it and did nothing. Rice
said in her testimony that info was regarded as "historical information." When
President Clinton went after Osama and started bombing, the political right
insisted it was wagging the dog because of the Lewinsky scandal.

Did you know your current president has drastically cut funds for Vets
hospitals, stateside? That some Vets have to drive four hours to see a doctor
and it takes about 4 months to get an appointment?

It doesn't look like they liked us much before George Bush became president.
They were attacking us before he became president, so it's quite a stretch to
claim his words "caused" more terrorist attacks.

So you don't think Bush's use of the term "crusade" was poor judgment? You
don't think Bush's mantra "God told me I'd be president so I could do this." It
doesn't tweak you at all that a man who doesn't believe in evolution is running
our country? That he is insisting Christianity be brought into these Muslim
nations? Sure terror attacks happened before. Nothing like the terrorist
attack we have launched on a country, Iraq, which has nothing to do with 9-11.
That, and the way this administration protects the Saudi's by having six secret
service officers guarding their embassy. What other embassy do we guard? None.

Nope, I was just answering what YOU had posted. You had just denied that they
had not found a SHRED OF EVIDENCE that there were WMD'S IN IRAQ. I was pointing
out that they had. Don't you want to be shown when you make a false statement?
Would you prefer to continue to go around making a false statement?

The amount of chemical weapons found was hardly a reason to invade a country.
That should also be pointed out to you who didn't say they found so little it
wasn't considered.


Why, yes, as a matter of fact, I was a recruiter. That's why I'm familiar with
the fact that there are more reasons for joining the military besides getting a
college education.

I know that, but the emphasis is not placed on the more reasons. The emphasis
is based on all sweetness and light. Very little, if any war discussion came up
at the recruitment of my neighbors son, who served 16 months in Iraq. Don't you
think that's a rather long tour for an 18 year old to endure?

Those weren't the ONLY places I travelled to. Those were only the places I was
assigned. While I was in the Army I also visited many states in the United
States. Somewhere around 20 or so, I'd guess, after a quick count. While I was
in Europe(6 years total) I also went to Spain, England, Italy, France,
Czechoslovakia, and Austria. I also saw a LOT of Germany while I was there. In
fact, I'd bet I saw much more of Germany than many tourists get to see. Too bad
much of it was seen from the top of a tank, but even that can be attractive if
you appreciate it.
Heavy enough for you?
BTW, when I joined the Army my total amount of "world travel" involved one
state(which I hadn't even seen very much of).

Look, you are retired military. I'm not trying to undermined your service, as a
matter of fact, thank you. However, this whole occupation still seems wrong.
Very wrong. I still strongly dislike our current administration, and I felt
that way on Election Day in 2000. I felt doomed way back before the Towers
fell. I rode the elevator in those Towers many times. I have family who live
down there in Tribecca. I'm a native New Yorker. The magnitude of that event
was so much bigger than anyone can imagine. Two buildings which covered 16 acre
footprints.

We will probably disagree on many things, but we agree on one thing, the
soldiers should never, ever be harmed or put down or shunned for any reason.
They are doing their job, and that is torture enough.

Victoria


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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 04:44:33 GMT, (The Watcher) opined:

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:04:02 -0700, (paghat)
wrote:

(snip)
It's amazing to me that dewy-eyed right-wing naifs see Michael's
understatements as over-the-top. It makes me wonder if such ignorance is
self-imposed in order to remain deluded about the merits of George Dubya
Bush, or if such naivity & stupidity is truly inate to rightwingers.

I'm kind of curious, since this was posted in response to my post, am I being
lumped in with the "rightwingers"? Just curious, since I've never been able to
squeeze into that particular pigeonhole.
Those rightwingers always seem to have problems with those of us who think women
should have the right to choose an abortion if she wants one, and gays should be
as free to marry each other as heteros.
They often object to my religious affiliation, too, since I carry a Life Member
card in American Atheists.

Okay, so here are more things we agree on. I am also an atheist, but I am a
practicing Buddhist. Buddhists do not believe in creation or creator, so it can
be considered atheist. It's a lot more complicated than that, but basically we
believe in taking control of our actions and creating conditions.

Victoria


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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 04:47:52 GMT, (The Watcher) opined:

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:58:18 GMT, escapee wrote:

(snip)
I will wait forever to hear the three things I ask for. Just three out of all
Moore's books, films or articles in featured magazines or interviews.

I gave you one already. I may give you some more if I remember them. Aside from
finding Bowling for Columbine a waste of time, I didn't find it particularly
interesting. The only reason I watched it was to find out if Michael Moore was
really as dishonest as I'd heard he was. I'm satisfied that he is. I don't think
I'll be watching any more of his movies.

You gave me one example of your belief of his lying, but he didn't lie. If he
is so glaringly lying, there'd be a lot more on the tip of your tongue. It
wouldn't be a labor to find the lies in your mind. They'd be right up there.
If you think Michael Moore is dishonest, you have to come up with a lot more
than an opinion to convince me. You didn't see Fahrenheit 9-11, yet, you say he
is dishonest in it. Interesting.


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hummm... I got a step sister went to school in Madison Wisconsin, hot bed of
activism. She was not politically involved actually, but said she stood in an alley
and threw a brick into a demonstration to get things going. Yes, she is addled.
something of the same sort happened in Tienamin square in China. rabble rousers
attacked, burned and killed some of the troops including burning tanks. that is one
of the really big triggers of what happened after that. I heard this first hand from
people who were in China visiting their son who was a student there. There are
assholes and idiots everywhere, people with their own agenda or no agenda but like
"excitement". Ingrid

Jim Elbrecht wrote:

wrote:

I didnt see any of it, and I went to school with vets. How much of this did you
actually see in NY?
-snip-

Just as a datapoint-- I came home from Vietnam in July of 1970 to
rural upstate New York.

I was *never* disrespected, and was even thanked a few times. I also
drank for free for 30 days until I reported to first North Carolina,
then Virginia---- Nobody ever gave me shit about my service.


Maybe because I was a pretty lean mean 6'3"--- maybe I just never ran
into any idjits. There were a couple VVAW guys in the barracks in
VA. We all worked together during the week & went our separate ways
on the weekends.

Jim



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Rules of critical thinking

1. who is quoting the text? what do they have to gain from quoting that text?
2. read the quoted speech in its entirety.

Ingrid

(The Watcher) wrote:
So when he's quoted one time saying the exact opposite of what he said the other
time it's made up? If that was true, it would be easy to deal with. The question
on his message forum doesn't seem to think it's quite that easy to deal with.
They seem to think there is some justification for the perception that he has
been Flip Flopping. Of course, they are his campaign people. What do they know?




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
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endorsements or recommendations I make.

they found decades old CONTAINERS with traces of things. BTW, do you know when and
what sarin was originally developed for? what are the tests and how specific are the
tests for various compounds?
Ingrid

(The Watcher) wrote:
Uh, weren't you paying attention to the news? They found Sarin and Mustard Gas
in Irag.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
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Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
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endorsements or recommendations I make.

http://www.thewall-usa.com/

the three soldiers .... now, I always thought memorials were to those who died so
how many memorials are there to those who served in WWII?

(The Watcher) wrote:
How many memorials have been erected to the men who served in
Vietnam?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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endorsements or recommendations I make.

the people who sent em there outta give em an apology, but first and foremost, they
all needed the resources of the U.S. when they stepped off the boat for their
physical and mental health, retraining, reintegrating them into society and ongoing
support as long as they lived. somebody yesterday said they been to see a BIL at a
local vets hospital and she was totally shocked. well tell me something new. they
are and have been horrors of places dirty disgusting understaffed, etc. every
veteran should get a card that entitles them to health care for the rest of their
lives ANYWHERE, not just vet hospitals.
Ingrid

(The Watcher) wrote:
I disagree with this. I think if a country has the guts to send soldiers to
fight a war, it OWES them at the least a welcome home of some sort.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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endorsements or recommendations I make.

it is a dirty little secret our leaders and especially all the chickenhawks want to
ignore is that any normal mentally healthy person goes to war is going to come home
changed and not for the better. it is a service that is going to be life long for
each individual. like all species we have a big built in inhibition against killing
those of our own species. training and having people break that inhibition does
lasting damage. Ingrid

escapee wrote:
had a boyfriend who was there and to this day (we're still in touch) he can't
talk about what happened in Vietnam. I recall many times if he heard a backfire
from a truck or car, he'd hit the deck in total fear. He absolutely has PTSD
and he's in his 50s now.


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You are confusing yourself. The subject was Vietnam vets not getting
educational benefits; you are talking about a later law. I won't defend
the Montgomery law; it is a bad deal. But Vietnam vets were under
Chapter 34, which was, while not as good as the original GI bill (WWII
version), was sufficient to get through many colleges. Incidentally,
veterans who have a service-connected disability were, and are today,
eligible for educational benefits that equal the original (WWII) GI
bill, under Chapter 31.

I'm out of here. This subject never belonged in this newsgroup, unless
you claim this emotional bullshit makes good fertilizer.

wrote:
William Brown wrote:

This is untrue. Many of us had our education funded by the VA. If he
didn't get any, perhaps he waited too long, or had a bad discharge.


AHHHHAAAAA http://www.objector.org/before-you-enlist/gi-bill.html
"The Montgomery GI Bill -- Plenty of Promises, Little Education Money
We've all seen the advertisements, "Join the Army and earn up to $40,000 for
college." The ads seem to say that if you join the military, college is all but paid
for. But only 35% of recruits receive any education benefits from the military. Most
that do get money receive far less than $40,000.
To find out why it's so hard to obtain the education benefits the military
advertises, read on.
Read the Fine Print

Advertisements that offer money for college if you join the military are advertising
two programs, the Montgomery GI Bill and the Army College Fund or Navy College Fund.
Almost all enlistees join the Montgomery GI Bill on entering the military. Far fewer
enlistees (1 in 20) qualify for the higher benefit Army College Fund, or Navy College
Fund, and they must also participate in the Montgomery GI Bill.

In order to receive any education benefit there are several conditions that must be
met. First, you must contribute $100 per month for the first twelve months of your
tour. Those payments must be made for all twelve months and can't be canceled once
they're begun. There is no refund of that $1200, ever. Additionally, you must receive
an honorable discharge, something that 20% of all veterans don't get.

The maximum benefit you can qualify for under the Montgomery GI Bill is $31,200. To
earn a larger benefit, like the $50,000 the military is so fond of advertising, you
must qualify for the Army/Navy College Fund. To do this you must score in the top
half of the military entry tests and be willing to enter a designated job specialty.
These designated Military Occupational Specialties are the most unpopular in the
military. The military has a hard time filling them because they have no skills that
are transferable to the civilian job market.
More Obstacles

Even after you've been honorably discharged, you're still a long way from getting
that money. Even though you've earned your tuition benefit you probably won't get it
all. The military has still more requirements for you to fulfill before you get all
of your money. Of course, you must be attending an accredited school. The military's
payment plan is based on a four-year college schedule: they'll pay you equal portions
of your money over 36 months (the equivalent of four academic years of nine months
each). This schedule is not flexible! If you, like 56% of veterans using the
Montgomery GI Bill, attend a two-year school or vocational school you can not receive
larger payments over a shorter period of time. That means a two year college graduate
will receive only half of the money they have earned!

Even though you earned that money, the Montgomery GI Bill doesn't let you decide how
to use it in the way that's best for you. But your argument will fall on deaf ears.
The military advertises large amounts of education money but the program is designed
so the money is hard to get and harder to use. The inflexibility of the Montgomery GI
Bill shows that the military wants to use it to recruit you, not to send you to
college.
It Isn't Enough

Even if you qualify for and receive the full $50,000, it isn't worth as much as you
might think. While World War II GI Bill participants were able to attend 90% of all
schools (public, private, two-year and four-year) with their tuition grant, $50,000
will cover just over one year at some private schools today.

Even state universities cost an average of about $9,000 per year. Your benefits
probably won't increase while you're in the military (benefits have been raised 3
times since the program was begun in 1985). But the cost of education will continue
to rise at a rate of 5-10% per year. By the time you finish your tour, your education
benefit will be worth a quarter less than when you signed up. If you don't go to
school right after the military, which many people don't, your benefit will become
worth less and less.

You need to ask yourself in a serious and realistic way, do you intend to go to
college? If yes, you need to have a plan. That plan may include joining the military,
but you can see that will work for only a few people. If your plans for going to
college seem to be more dream than reality, you need to take a long look at what is
really possible. If you're hoping that the military can make an unplanned dream come
true, it's not going to happen. Don't forget, you're risking your own money in the
Montgomery GI Bill as well.
Education in the Military?

Recruiters also like to talk about educational opportunities while you're in the
military. According to recruiters, not only will you learn skill in your job
specialty but you also have the chance to take college courses on-base or close by.
In theory, this may be true. But when the military commissioned a study to see what
soldiers thought of military recruiting, an overwhelming number responded that they
thought military advertisements' promises of education were "lies...false" or "not
the truth to me." Rather than working with the helicopters you see in slick
advertisements, they found themselves "buffin' floors and pickin' up cigarette
butts."

Your decision about whether to join the military, with or without the Montgomery GI
Bill, is not an easy one. Unfortunately, it's not as simple as weighing the pros and
cons of this or that benefit. Other jobs may be hard to come by, but they don't
demand what the military demands. You give up your freedom when you join the
military, entering a different world with different laws, where others can control
your life 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
The Military Mission

Above all else, the military is an institution with one overriding purpose: to
prepare for and fight wars. You literally sign your life over to the military. For
some who joined the military before the Gulf War, they didn't fully realize this
until they were faced with an actual war in Saudi Arabia against Iraq. Don't make the
same mistake they made. If you're going to join the military be prepared to fight a
war, even a war you may not agree with. It could be a war we lose, like Vietnam. Or,
it could be a war we win, like in Kuwait. Either way, people are killed and you might
be the one who kills them. As much as the war in Iraq has been celebrated, you can
find US veterans who can't forget some of the awful things they saw there. Is that
the kind of risk you want to take to finance your college education?
Be A Smart Consumer

The Montgomery GI Bill was not created to send you, or anyone else, to school. It was
designed to recruit soldiers. It may be all the same to you, as long as you end up
with money for college. But why the program was created affects its design and how
well it is funded. The Montgomery GI Bill is designed to attract you with a large
sounding amount of money with lots of strings attached. The maximum benefit of
$50,000 quickly dwindles to $31,200 or $6588 for an alarming number of recruits. Many
don't find that out until after they've joined! By then it's much too late...

Nobody else can make decisions about what is best for you, not the recruiter and not
us. But your decisions should be based on more than slick ads and a recruiter's sales
pitch. The military promises but often it does not deliver."




wrote:

it really is a line of bullshit too, cause my teaching assistants boyfriend went into
the military so he could get money for college and they trained him to be a mechanic
and when he got out there WAS NO MONEY FOR COLLEGE. it is a lie. Ingrid

escapee wrote:


You don't consider 17 to be a kid? Geesh, I sure hope you don't have kids. The
problem is, the military sells a line of bullshit to kids in very poor areas of
the country. Areas where college is only a thought, not a goal. They are told
they will travel all over the world and get college for free. All this while we
all know that anyone can get a student loan or grant for college in this
country.



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Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
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endorsements or recommendations I make.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

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