I didnt see any of it, and I went to school with vets. How much of this did you
actually see in NY?
I dont know anybody in Milwaukee got a parade when they came home. the kid across
the street is coming home in a few days and I will sure welcome her back home with
relief, but Bay View is having no parade. Ingrid

escapee wrote:
I agree with everything you said, but indeed the returning soldiers were spat
on, and protested against, called baby killers and a whole barrage of horrible
things on TOP of their PTSD.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

some people do get college money, my stepsisters daughter did. but sure as hell not
everyone. my assistants boyfriend is working days and going to night school at
technical college (cheap tuition) and paying his own way. and he was army,not navy.
Ingrid

(IntarsiaCo) wrote:

went into
the military so he could get money for college and they trained him to be a
mechanic
and when he got out there WAS NO MONEY FOR COLLEGE. it is a lie. Ingrid

So I guess the degree my son obtained while in the Navy is a figment of my
imagination, yes?



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

William Brown wrote:
This is untrue. Many of us had our education funded by the VA. If he
didn't get any, perhaps he waited too long, or had a bad discharge.

AHHHHAAAAA http://www.objector.org/before-you-enlist/gi-bill.html
"The Montgomery GI Bill -- Plenty of Promises, Little Education Money
We've all seen the advertisements, "Join the Army and earn up to $40,000 for
college." The ads seem to say that if you join the military, college is all but paid
for. But only 35% of recruits receive any education benefits from the military. Most
that do get money receive far less than $40,000.
To find out why it's so hard to obtain the education benefits the military
advertises, read on.
Read the Fine Print

Advertisements that offer money for college if you join the military are advertising
two programs, the Montgomery GI Bill and the Army College Fund or Navy College Fund.
Almost all enlistees join the Montgomery GI Bill on entering the military. Far fewer
enlistees (1 in 20) qualify for the higher benefit Army College Fund, or Navy College
Fund, and they must also participate in the Montgomery GI Bill.

In order to receive any education benefit there are several conditions that must be
met. First, you must contribute $100 per month for the first twelve months of your
tour. Those payments must be made for all twelve months and can't be canceled once
they're begun. There is no refund of that $1200, ever. Additionally, you must receive
an honorable discharge, something that 20% of all veterans don't get.

The maximum benefit you can qualify for under the Montgomery GI Bill is $31,200. To
earn a larger benefit, like the $50,000 the military is so fond of advertising, you
must qualify for the Army/Navy College Fund. To do this you must score in the top
half of the military entry tests and be willing to enter a designated job specialty.
These designated Military Occupational Specialties are the most unpopular in the
military. The military has a hard time filling them because they have no skills that
are transferable to the civilian job market.
More Obstacles

Even after you've been honorably discharged, you're still a long way from getting
that money. Even though you've earned your tuition benefit you probably won't get it
all. The military has still more requirements for you to fulfill before you get all
of your money. Of course, you must be attending an accredited school. The military's
payment plan is based on a four-year college schedule: they'll pay you equal portions
of your money over 36 months (the equivalent of four academic years of nine months
each). This schedule is not flexible! If you, like 56% of veterans using the
Montgomery GI Bill, attend a two-year school or vocational school you can not receive
larger payments over a shorter period of time. That means a two year college graduate
will receive only half of the money they have earned!

Even though you earned that money, the Montgomery GI Bill doesn't let you decide how
to use it in the way that's best for you. But your argument will fall on deaf ears.
The military advertises large amounts of education money but the program is designed
so the money is hard to get and harder to use. The inflexibility of the Montgomery GI
Bill shows that the military wants to use it to recruit you, not to send you to
college.
It Isn't Enough

Even if you qualify for and receive the full $50,000, it isn't worth as much as you
might think. While World War II GI Bill participants were able to attend 90% of all
schools (public, private, two-year and four-year) with their tuition grant, $50,000
will cover just over one year at some private schools today.

Even state universities cost an average of about $9,000 per year. Your benefits
probably won't increase while you're in the military (benefits have been raised 3
times since the program was begun in 1985). But the cost of education will continue
to rise at a rate of 5-10% per year. By the time you finish your tour, your education
benefit will be worth a quarter less than when you signed up. If you don't go to
school right after the military, which many people don't, your benefit will become
worth less and less.

You need to ask yourself in a serious and realistic way, do you intend to go to
college? If yes, you need to have a plan. That plan may include joining the military,
but you can see that will work for only a few people. If your plans for going to
college seem to be more dream than reality, you need to take a long look at what is
really possible. If you're hoping that the military can make an unplanned dream come
true, it's not going to happen. Don't forget, you're risking your own money in the
Montgomery GI Bill as well.
Education in the Military?

Recruiters also like to talk about educational opportunities while you're in the
military. According to recruiters, not only will you learn skill in your job
specialty but you also have the chance to take college courses on-base or close by.
In theory, this may be true. But when the military commissioned a study to see what
soldiers thought of military recruiting, an overwhelming number responded that they
thought military advertisements' promises of education were "lies...false" or "not
the truth to me." Rather than working with the helicopters you see in slick
advertisements, they found themselves "buffin' floors and pickin' up cigarette
butts."

Your decision about whether to join the military, with or without the Montgomery GI
Bill, is not an easy one. Unfortunately, it's not as simple as weighing the pros and
cons of this or that benefit. Other jobs may be hard to come by, but they don't
demand what the military demands. You give up your freedom when you join the
military, entering a different world with different laws, where others can control
your life 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
The Military Mission

Above all else, the military is an institution with one overriding purpose: to
prepare for and fight wars. You literally sign your life over to the military. For
some who joined the military before the Gulf War, they didn't fully realize this
until they were faced with an actual war in Saudi Arabia against Iraq. Don't make the
same mistake they made. If you're going to join the military be prepared to fight a
war, even a war you may not agree with. It could be a war we lose, like Vietnam. Or,
it could be a war we win, like in Kuwait. Either way, people are killed and you might
be the one who kills them. As much as the war in Iraq has been celebrated, you can
find US veterans who can't forget some of the awful things they saw there. Is that
the kind of risk you want to take to finance your college education?
Be A Smart Consumer

The Montgomery GI Bill was not created to send you, or anyone else, to school. It was
designed to recruit soldiers. It may be all the same to you, as long as you end up
with money for college. But why the program was created affects its design and how
well it is funded. The Montgomery GI Bill is designed to attract you with a large
sounding amount of money with lots of strings attached. The maximum benefit of
$50,000 quickly dwindles to $31,200 or $6588 for an alarming number of recruits. Many
don't find that out until after they've joined! By then it's much too late...

Nobody else can make decisions about what is best for you, not the recruiter and not
us. But your decisions should be based on more than slick ads and a recruiter's sales
pitch. The military promises but often it does not deliver."



wrote:
it really is a line of bullshit too, cause my teaching assistants boyfriend went into
the military so he could get money for college and they trained him to be a mechanic
and when he got out there WAS NO MONEY FOR COLLEGE. it is a lie. Ingrid

escapee wrote:

You don't consider 17 to be a kid? Geesh, I sure hope you don't have kids. The
problem is, the military sells a line of bullshit to kids in very poor areas of
the country. Areas where college is only a thought, not a goal. They are told
they will travel all over the world and get college for free. All this while we
all know that anyone can get a student loan or grant for college in this
country.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

I saw a LOT of it. As a kid, I'd see mobs of hippies holding signs when these
guys got off planes "Baby Killers." The soldiers were treated like shit. When
I said a parade, I was comparing it to D-Day. When soldiers were respected and
honored. When we knew what we were fighting for.

I'm truly not trying to instigate anything, just sharing my experience. I know
NY is a far cry from Milwaukee and as such, cannot tangibly be compared.

V


On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:00:23 GMT, opined:

I didnt see any of it, and I went to school with vets. How much of this did you
actually see in NY?
I dont know anybody in Milwaukee got a parade when they came home. the kid across
the street is coming home in a few days and I will sure welcome her back home with
relief, but Bay View is having no parade. Ingrid

escapee wrote:
I agree with everything you said, but indeed the returning soldiers were spat
on, and protested against, called baby killers and a whole barrage of horrible
things on TOP of their PTSD.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.



Need a good, cheap, knowledge expanding present for yourself or a friend?
http://www.animaux.net/stern/present.html

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:14:29 GMT, wrote:

if you take all the speeches he said and quoted out of context you could make him
sound like he was selling his mother into slavery if you wanted. it is called cut
and paste. it is made up. it is a lot of bushwa.

So when he's quoted one time saying the exact opposite of what he said the other
time it's made up? If that was true, it would be easy to deal with. The question
on his message forum doesn't seem to think it's quite that easy to deal with.
They seem to think there is some justification for the perception that he has
been Flip Flopping. Of course, they are his campaign people. What do they know?

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:18:57 -0700, Tom Jaszewski wrote:

(snip)
There are no heroes in war, only victims.....


Nice dismissal of the actions of a lot of heroes. Easy for you to do that, isn't
it?

As a part of the "Vietnam
Veterans Against the War" campaign I saw NONE of the idiocies
overblown by blowhards and republican chicken hawks!

Well, since YOU saw none, it certainly couldn't have happened. Any stories of
other people who claimed it happened to them or they saw it happen were just
figments of their imagination. Speaking of know-nothings, did you learn your
philosophy from the ostriches?

Once again, OVERBLOWN!

Basically irrelevant, anyway, since I wasn't really referring to the "hippies
spitting on GI's". My reference was to the way the country(the USA) as a whole
treated its soldiers, sending them off to war, then treating them like criminals
when they returned(when they weren't just ignored).

What was
outstanding was the war mongers republicans inability to deal with
agent orange. That was the real slap in Vietnam veterans faces! Not
some highed out hippy!

I didn't even bother mentioning hippies. I was referring to the behavior of the
country as a whole, which I still consider abominable.

Yes abominable behavior! It's still hard to believe the Amerikan
public allowed the war to continue!

Interesting you have no criticisms of that same Army of heroes that
never got justice from Agent Orange exposure.

They should be criticized for being exposed to Agent Orange and never getting
justice for it? I don't see where they deserve criticism for that.

I guess your precious
Army hadn't much regard for it's heroes either?

That Army has been trying to get justice for decades since then. They've
achieved some success. Should they be criticized for not being 100% successful?
I don't think so. BTW, my "precious" Army doesn't control the civilian
government and how IT treats its soldiers. Civilians do that. The same civilians
who start the wars and send the soldiers off to fight those wars.

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:19:16 GMT, wrote:

a welcome home parade doesnt do shit for anybody past the momentary "feel good".

Yeah, well, that would be more than they got back then, wouldn't it? Given the
choice between something and nothing, most people would prefer something.

it
is the abdication of responsibility for veterans by our gov'ment that has been the
root cause of the misery.. well the stupid useless war was the real misery.

I consider the unpopular war only part of the misery. Having their own country
turn its back on them probably added more to their misery than the fact that the
war was unpopular.

there is a memorial in Milwaukee down at the lake front. I been to the one in D.C.
probably 20 times when I lived outside D.C.

The one in Washington is dedicated to the men who died in Vietnam. The men who
served in Vietnam and survived got nothing, again.

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:33:26 -0700, (paghat)
wrote:

(snip)
Oh? How many Welcome Home parades were there for the veterans when they came
home from Vietnam?

Well, I participated in quite a long parade of cars with their lights on
as we took my childhood neighbor & first sweet crush Jimmy Shrieves to the
cemetery, the first of several on our block to be brought home, in the
words of Country Joe, "in a box." Didn't live long enough to ever vote or
get LEGALLY drunk. And we honored him not only that day, but just about
every day since, because it isn't something that ever really heals.

So if such grief-stricken homecoming parades as that count, at the time
there seemed to be no end to them in poorer neighborhoods like mine. If
what you hoped for was jingoistic pride in a baseless & unjust war that
couldn't even be won, then hey, you're just gonna love the next GOP
convention.

I doubt it, since I'm not a member of either party. If you'll go back and read
my post again, you may notice that I didn't suggest a Great War Parade. I
suggested a Welcome Home Parade for the returning veterans.

How many memorials have been erected to the men who served in
Vietnam?

God I hope that was asked tongue in cheek.

Nope. Dead serious. I know about the ONE erected in Washington, DC to the men
who DIED in Vietnam. What about all the other men who survived Vietnam? They
sacrificed a bit, too. I'd think their sacrifice would be worth at least one
memorial or something from a "grateful" country. :/

I've seen the traveling Vietnam Wall.
(snip)

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:08:28 GMT, wrote:

that is crap. it has nothing to do with how they are treated when they "get home".

I disagree with this. I think if a country has the guts to send soldiers to
fight a war, it OWES them at the least a welcome home of some sort. The welcome
they got from Vietnam was a disgrace.

all this nonsense about how badly the Viet Nam veterans were treated is bushwa
distraction for the real problem which is that government did almost nothing to help
them deal with their drug addictions (started in Viet Nam) nor their post traumatic
stress syndrome... for which there is really no cure.

It might not be a cure, but treating veterans like pariahs probably doesn't help
them get any better, either.


The correlation is how much
horror they have seen or committed and how crazy they are going to be afterwards. And
medical and mental care for many is going to be a lifetime of support. something our
citizens seems to be unwilling to think about much less make sure it is going to be
there.
the gov'ments response to agent orange, gulf war syndrome etc is the fund a
commission to look into it and take enough time that most of the victims die before
getting help. it has started already for our kids coming home with parts missing or
dead... we are not allowed to even see images of the coffins. and the seriously
injured are already dropping thru the cracks and due to the extended tour many of
them have lost their jobs.
I dont know anybody who treated returning VN vets badly when they returned.

You mean other than ignoring them as if they didn't exist or hadn't been gone?

Maybe
there was a couple incidents, they made the news but it sure wasnt the norm or
average. Warm welcomes by strangers really isnt therapy for the horrors they have
seen and been thru. The real bad treatment was our gov'ment abdicating
responsibility for them after they returned home.

It's not just the government I hold responsible, but the government had a
responsibility there. As an example, our local reserve unit went to Iraq last
February. They left on an icy February morning around 5:30 in the morning, and
there were still a bunch of local people there to see them off. We brought food
and coffee, and gave them a send-off. In June they returned. Many local people
were there to see them return, in addition to their family members. We'll also
be having an official Welcome Back ceremony in a couple of weeks. I still think
whether anyone supports this war(or any war) is irrelevant. Showing support for
the soldiers isn't the same as supporting any war.
(The Watcher) wrote:
The emotional damage could be a lot less if this country treated them better
when they returned.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:59:10 GMT, escapee wrote:

I agree with everything you said, but indeed the returning soldiers were spat
on, and protested against, called baby killers and a whole barrage of horrible
things on TOP of their PTSD. Maybe where you live the soldiers were welcomed
home, but not in my part of the country, which was New York, at the time.

There were no welcome home parades, no facilities, or treatments. They were
denied everything that a person returning from bad wars should have received.

There was indeed damage to the men and whatever women who served. When they got
home, they were never celebrated for being freedom fighters. That's real.

I got to see the Moving Vietnam Wall Memorial in 2000 here in Arkansas. I saw a
lot of Vietnam vets there, and talked to lots of them. Plenty of them said they
had never been told "Welcome Home" and it did feel good to finally hear it.
Several of them actually had tears in their eyes when they said that, too.
I still don't know why that couldn't have been done back in 1975 or so. :/

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 17:52:39 GMT, escapee wrote:

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:19:07 GMT, (The Watcher) opined:


That doesn't mean everything causes everything that happens after it, though.
Logic requires proof. When you claim something is true, you're expected to prove
it. You could just try hinting that it's true like Moore does, but for most
people that isn't enough proof.

I want you to give me three things Michael Moore lied about, was inaccurate
about, or hinted about.
I'm asking for any three things you can "prove" he lied
about or got overblown by his position, or was untrue, or didn't have proper
research.

One of his biggest whoppers was his little cartoon of anti-gun propaganda.
During the cartoon(and elsewhere in the movie) he insinuated that people buy
guns because of fear. Some people do, but that's not the ONLY reason. Of course,
he didn't mention any other reasons, since other reasons might interfere with
his "mission". I own plenty of guns, and I didn't buy them out of fear.

Which leader is that? Since terrorists have been "lashing out" for centuries,
you must be talking about several leaders.

Nope. The leader of our country in the United States, George W. Bush.

Right, but the World Trade Center attack was planned for several years, probably
begun during the Clinton years, at least. Also, other terrorist attacks have
happened under other presidents, so this one isn't unique.

No, we're talking about one specific claim of cause and effect.

Correct, and we can look at the terrorist attacks and it is a fact that they
have more than doubled since the monkey said "Bring it on." No, there are no
scientific evidence provided, but I can see it's pretty clear...or coincidence,
but you cannot honestly sit at the glowing screen and tell me these barbaric
nations like our president.

It doesn't look like they liked us much before George Bush became president.
They were attacking us before he became president, so it's quite a stretch to
claim his words "caused" more terrorist attacks.

In 15 years I served twice in Colorado, twice in Germany once in Georgia, once
in California. I did my Basic Training at Fort Polk, Louisiana, California, and did assorted
other training at other bases like Lowry Air Force Base in Denver and Fort Ben
Harrison in Indianapolis.

I was born on an Air Force base. Does that matter? Maybe you were a military
brat and you consider that serving?

When I got out I was a Staff Sergeant(E-6), on the Sergeant First Class list.

So you were never in Viet Nam?

I don't know about people like me, but I don't think in terms of black and
white. That's why I don't generally like emotional arguments like this "kids in
combat" one. That's a black and white argument.

Yeah, I said you think black and white and on this argument we're having, you
now concede to it. Thanks for that much.

I've conceded that you seem to be mistaken about me being the "black and white
thinker.


Uh, weren't you paying attention to the news? They found Sarin and Mustard Gas
in Irag. Before we went into Iraq, Weapons of Mass Destruction were defined as
Nuclear, Biological, and CHEMICAL munitions. Both Sarin and Mustard Gas are
chemical munitions. I'd say that would constitute a shred of evidence that WMD
exist in Iraq.

Oh, I suppose you support a shred of evidence as reason to go into a country,
bomb the shit out of it, completely participate in the destruction of a people,
demanding they now be a democracy, that they should also now know all about the
Good News of Jesus Christ, etc...please, spare me the rhetoric.

Nope, I was just answering what YOU had posted. You had just denied that they
had not found a SHRED OF EVIDENCE that there were WMD'S IN IRAQ. I was pointing
out that they had. Don't you want to be shown when you make a false statement?
Would you prefer to continue to go around making a false statement?

If they had
weapons of mass destruction, they'd have used them by now. The amounts of
biological or chemical weapons they found are not a blip on the radar.

Oh, were you a recruiter too?

No, were you? Are you trying to tell me the ads on my television which state how
great life is in the military, how you get a free education, and travel all over
the world, are figments of my imagination?

Why, yes, as a matter of fact, I was a recruiter. That's why I'm familiar with
the fact that there are more reasons for joining the military besides getting a
college education.

Well, I did travel over a LOT of the world, and did get the opportunity to go to
college. Nobody said it would be free, though.

Oh, well, they are saying that now.

Au contraire. They are saying that you have to serve in the military to EARN it.

Colorado, Germany, Georgia, California,
Louisiana, and Indiana. Wow, heavy duty world travel.

Those weren't the ONLY places I travelled to. Those were only the places I was
assigned. While I was in the Army I also visited many states in the United
States. Somewhere around 20 or so, I'd guess, after a quick count. While I was
in Europe(6 years total) I also went to Spain, England, Italy, France,
Czechoslovakia, and Austria. I also saw a LOT of Germany while I was there. In
fact, I'd bet I saw much more of Germany than many tourists get to see. Too bad
much of it was seen from the top of a tank, but even that can be attractive if
you appreciate it.
Heavy enough for you?
BTW, when I joined the Army my total amount of "world travel" involved one
state(which I hadn't even seen very much of).

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:04:02 -0700, (paghat)
wrote:

(snip)
It's amazing to me that dewy-eyed right-wing naifs see Michael's
understatements as over-the-top. It makes me wonder if such ignorance is
self-imposed in order to remain deluded about the merits of George Dubya
Bush, or if such naivity & stupidity is truly inate to rightwingers.

I'm kind of curious, since this was posted in response to my post, am I being
lumped in with the "rightwingers"? Just curious, since I've never been able to
squeeze into that particular pigeonhole.
Those rightwingers always seem to have problems with those of us who think women
should have the right to choose an abortion if she wants one, and gays should be
as free to marry each other as heteros.
They often object to my religious affiliation, too, since I carry a Life Member
card in American Atheists.

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:58:18 GMT, escapee wrote:

(snip)
I will wait forever to hear the three things I ask for. Just three out of all
Moore's books, films or articles in featured magazines or interviews.

I gave you one already. I may give you some more if I remember them. Aside from
finding Bowling for Columbine a waste of time, I didn't find it particularly
interesting. The only reason I watched it was to find out if Michael Moore was
really as dishonest as I'd heard he was. I'm satisfied that he is. I don't think
I'll be watching any more of his movies.

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 14:14:02 GMT, escapee wrote:

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 09:51:15 -0400, (D) opined:

I"m smart enough to know that G.W.Bush,
has kept the country safe from any terrorist attack for 2 1/2 yrs. But I
guess you have to be really smart to see that, and to see that Al Gore
or John Kerry are not even in the same league as George W. Bush.

How do you explain that a teenager was able to get two box cutters onto planes,
through security gates, at two airports? Bush has nothing to do with terrorist
attack cessation. Matter of fact, he said, "Bring it on." So, if you think
about a thousand dead kids (soldiers) and about seven thousand others who lost
limbs or are paralyzed or worse is protecting us, you have a rare view of the
term.

This seems to be where the "thousand dead kids (soldiers)" first popped up, so I
figured you should be the one to set the threshhold for exactly what you're
calling a "kid". From this it looks like ALL the soldiers are considered kids.
Surely that can't be right. Maybe a specific age could be proposed. Of course,
that would mean the number of dead "kids" would have to be reduced in that
statement, which wouldn't give it the same impact. Reducing the impact seems to
be going against the purpose of calling them kids in the first place, though.

In article , (The
Watcher) wrote:

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:33:26 -0700, (paghat)
wrote:

(snip)
Oh? How many Welcome Home parades were there for the veterans when
they came
home from Vietnam?

Well, I participated in quite a long parade of cars with their lights on
as we took my childhood neighbor & first sweet crush Jimmy Shrieves to the
cemetery, the first of several on our block to be brought home, in the
words of Country Joe, "in a box." Didn't live long enough to ever vote or
get LEGALLY drunk. And we honored him not only that day, but just about
every day since, because it isn't something that ever really heals.

So if such grief-stricken homecoming parades as that count, at the time
there seemed to be no end to them in poorer neighborhoods like mine. If
what you hoped for was jingoistic pride in a baseless & unjust war that
couldn't even be won, then hey, you're just gonna love the next GOP
convention.

I doubt it, since I'm not a member of either party. If you'll go back and read
my post again, you may notice that I didn't suggest a Great War Parade. I
suggested a Welcome Home Parade for the returning veterans.

How many memorials have been erected to the men who served in
Vietnam?

God I hope that was asked tongue in cheek.

Nope. Dead serious. I know about the ONE erected in Washington, DC to the men
who DIED in Vietnam. What about all the other men who survived Vietnam? They
sacrificed a bit, too. I'd think their sacrifice would be worth at least one
memorial or something from a "grateful" country. :/

Hooboy, I gave you a resource for dozens of Vietnam war memorials, few of
which are for the dead only, except the cemetery memorials which weren't
on the resource list I linked you to. If you actually gave a fat dog's ass
about honors paid to vets you'd've at least looked at the link. Your heart
might be in the right place, but when you spout off without even an ounce
of knowledge, you sound like a nut. When the information is before you &
quite easy to check, & you say you SERIOUSLY can't see that any of these
many memorials exist, it shows you're reacting from a position of
blindness & distaste for the facts, justifying your position by remaining
unaware of reality, rather than basing your positions in sound reason &
factual information. So just try to believe it. There is NO SHORTAGE of
Vietnam war memorials. Who knows, you might even bite the bullet & vote
for Kerry if you'd replace kneejerkism with knowledge. There are plenty of
things vets have every reason to be righteous about; lack of memorials is
hardly one of them.

-paggers

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com