a welcome home parade doesnt do shit for anybody past the momentary "feel good". it
is the abdication of responsibility for veterans by our gov'ment that has been the
root cause of the misery.. well the stupid useless war was the real misery.
there is a memorial in Milwaukee down at the lake front. I been to the one in D.C.
probably 20 times when I lived outside D.C.
Ingrid

(The Watcher) wrote:
Oh? How many Welcome Home parades were there for the veterans when they came
home from Vietnam? How many memorials have been erected to the men who served in
Vietnam?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:48:28 GMT, escapee wrote:

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 06:25:36 GMT, (The Watcher) opined:


Uh, the fact that something happens after something else doesn't mean the first
thing CAUSES the second thing, does it? In that case, I must have caused it to
rain yesterday, since I went outside just before it started raining.

Everything reacts to something.

That doesn't mean everything causes everything that happens after it, though.
Logic requires proof. When you claim something is true, you're expected to prove
it. You could just try hinting that it's true like Moore does, but for most
people that isn't enough proof.

Our leader set up conditions for terrorists to
lash out.

Which leader is that? Since terrorists have been "lashing out" for centuries,
you must be talking about several leaders.

We are not talking about the weather and how random weather is.

No, we're talking about one specific claim of cause and effect.

We are talking about a specific event of a dullard saying "bring it on" while he
went fishing and golfing, and life went on as usual. They guy is one of the most
ignorant presidents in my lifetime.

Don't give up yet. There's still time.

It would if you wanted to discuss the military.
Anyway, back on the subject of those "kids".

Yeah, jump right back there because now you don't know how long I served or
where. Where did you serve?

In 15 years I served twice in Colorado, twice in Germany, once in Georgia, once
in California. I did my Basic Training at Fort Polk, Louisiana, and did assorted
other training at other bases like Lowry Air Force Base in Denver and Fort Ben
Harrison in Indianapolis.

What was your rank.

When I got out I was a Staff Sergeant(E-6), on the Sergeant First Class list.

Maybe we should consider anybody under 21 kids. We could take away their driving
privileges. We could stop letting them join the military. We could stop letting
them get married. We could stop letting them enjoy ANY of the rights adults
enjoy. No voting. No firearms ownership. Anybody here wanna try that? If you
really believe everybody under 21 is a "kid" seems like you should support that.

No, I didn't say that, but people like you think in terms of black and white.

I don't know about people like me, but I don't think in terms of black and
white. That's why I don't generally like emotional arguments like this "kids in
combat" one. That's a black and white argument.

What I'm proposing is that, we cease sending boys and girls into combat for fake
reasons.

Sounds good. While we're at it maybe we could cease sending men and women into
combat for fake reasons too.

We should put the current administration in prison for lying to the
world, the UN and for the fact that in all the many months after "Mission
Accomplished" we still have not found one shred of evidence that WMD exist in
Iraq,


Uh, weren't you paying attention to the news? They found Sarin and Mustard Gas
in Irag. Before we went into Iraq, Weapons of Mass Destruction were defined as
Nuclear, Biological, and CHEMICAL munitions. Both Sarin and Mustard Gas are
chemical munitions. I'd say that would constitute a shred of evidence that WMD
exist in Iraq.

If they're just "kids" they're not responsible enough to handle adult
responsibilities.
I joined the Army when I was 17. I wasn't the most mature 17-year-old, but I
learned quickly that I was part of a group that depended on me. I was surrounded
by a lot of other young MEN, most of them about the same age, and most of them
handled their responsibilities quite well. I spent plenty of time in lots of
different types of units with a lot of men(and some women) over 15 years, and I
don't think I served with too many "kids".

You don't consider 17 to be a kid?

Nope, not always. When I joined the Army I accepted the responsibilities of an
adult(most of them anyway-I still couldn't legally vote, drink, or buy a
handgun).

Geesh, I sure hope you don't have kids. The
problem is, the military sells a line of bullshit to kids in very poor areas of
the country.

Oh, were you a recruiter too?

Areas where college is only a thought, not a goal. They are told
they will travel all over the world and get college for free.

Well, I did travel over a LOT of the world, and did get the opportunity to go to
college. Nobody said it would be free, though.

All this while we
all know that anyone can get a student loan or grant for college in this
country.

I can tell you weren't ever a recruiter. If you think the GI college plan is the
only reason people join the military, that much is obvious.

I feel for you, soldier.

Former soldier. I left the Army about 12 years ago. I do miss it, but it is the
past now.

You don't sound like you were ever in combat. If you
were in combat, I think you may have PTSD and are in denial of the tragedy which
is war.

Thanks for the online diagnosis, but I think your diagnosis is badly mistaken,
since *I* didn't express MY opinion about the tragedy which is war. Sounds like
any opinions you're diagnosing are some you have inferred from somewhere.

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 06:31:01 GMT, (The Watcher)
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:33:04 -0700, remove munged
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:33:02 GMT, (The Watcher)
wrote:

I consider one of America's biggest national black marks the way we(as a
country) treated the veterans WE sent to fight in Vietnam



More hype and blather from a know nothing.

Oh? How many Welcome Home parades were there for the veterans when they came
home from Vietnam? How many memorials have been erected to the men who served in
Vietnam?

There are no heroes in war, only victims.....

As a part of the "Vietnam
Veterans Against the War" campaign I saw NONE of the idiocies
overblown by blowhards and republican chicken hawks!

Well, since YOU saw none, it certainly couldn't have happened. Any stories of
other people who claimed it happened to them or they saw it happen were just
figments of their imagination. Speaking of know-nothings, did you learn your
philosophy from the ostriches?

Once again, OVERBLOWN!

What was
outstanding was the war mongers republicans inability to deal with
agent orange. That was the real slap in Vietnam veterans faces! Not
some highed out hippy!

I didn't even bother mentioning hippies. I was referring to the behavior of the
country as a whole, which I still consider abominable.

Yes abominable behavior! It's still hard to believe the Amerikan
public allowed the war to continue!

Interesting you have no criticisms of that same Army of heroes that
never got justice from Agent Orange exposure. I guess your precious
Army hadn't much regard for it's heroes either?


Acts of creation are ordinarily reserved for gods and poets. To plant a pine, one need only own a shovel.
-- Aldo Leopold

"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
...
In article ,

I saw one story, true or not I don't know, that one of Nader's
biggest backers is a Bush Republican. If true, that backer lives in the
real world - unfortunately.

Nader accepts Republican signatures on petition
GOP gathered names in Michigan to make sure maverick appears on ballot



LANSING, Mich. (AP) — In an about face, Ralph Nader decided today to accept
thousands of petition signatures collected by Michigan Republicans if that's
the only way he can qualify for the state's presidential ballot.

Last Thursday, Michigan Republican party officials submitted 43,000
signatures — far more than the 30,000 needed — to ensure Nader could appear
on the ballot as an independent. Republicans began collecting signatures
after it appeared that Nader might not get on the ballot as the Reform
party's candidate for president.

Nader's campaign had turned in about 5,400 signatures. But spokesman Kevin
Zeese said it stopped collecting them a month ago after the national Reform
party endorsed Nader and it looked as though he could get on the ballot as
its candidate.

But there has been a growing dispute over who controls the Reform party in
Michigan. One group claiming to be the legitimate Reform Party of Michigan
plans to nominate a presidential candidate for the ballot at its state
convention Saturday. Chairman Matthew Crehan, of Muskegon, Mich., has said
there is no guarantee Nader will get that nomination.

A group headed by John Muntz, of Wyandotte, Mich., which also claims to be
the legitimate state Reform party, already has nominated Nader for the spot
on the state ballot. Secretary of State Terri Lynn Land has said she can't
accept that nomination until the dispute over who controls the state Reform
party is resolved.

Zeese said the goal is to get Nader on Michigan's ballot — however it
happens.

"We're going to continue to pursue the Reform party, but we're not going to
close off the independent option at this time while the Reform party has not
decided" who is in charge, he said.

Michigan Democratic party leaders have asked Nader to refuse the signatures,
saying Republicans want him on the ballot only to draw votes away from
Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry.

"We urge Nader to reject this Republican political trick and demonstrate
that he is still a man with great integrity who honours his own beliefs,"
Michigan Democratic executive chairman Mark Brewer said.

Zeese initially said last week that the campaign would refuse the Republican
signatures. He later said he wasn't sure that was still the case if it
turned out state officials wouldn't accept the Reform party nomination.

Brewer said Nader's decision not to withdraw as an independent will force
the party to file a federal election complaint against Nader's campaign and
the Michigan Republican party, which it contends exceeded a state political
party campaign limit of $5,000 US in helping Nader get on the ballot.

State Republican executive director Greg McNeilly said last week that the
party didn't exceed any campaign spending limits because it collected most
of the signatures through volunteers.

Democrats also plan to check the validity of all signatures and challenge
any they find in error. Any challenges must be filed by Thursday afternoon.

"A close inspection of the petitions revealed numerous instances of petition
fraud made by Republican party staffers," Brewer said today in a statement.


http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...=1090275619184

In article , (The
Watcher) wrote:

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:33:04 -0700, remove munged
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:33:02 GMT, (The Watcher)
wrote:

I consider one of America's biggest national black marks the way we(as a
country) treated the veterans WE sent to fight in Vietnam



More hype and blather from a know nothing.

Oh? How many Welcome Home parades were there for the veterans when they came
home from Vietnam?

Well, I participated in quite a long parade of cars with their lights on
as we took my childhood neighbor & first sweet crush Jimmy Shrieves to the
cemetery, the first of several on our block to be brought home, in the
words of Country Joe, "in a box." Didn't live long enough to ever vote or
get LEGALLY drunk. And we honored him not only that day, but just about
every day since, because it isn't something that ever really heals.

So if such grief-stricken homecoming parades as that count, at the time
there seemed to be no end to them in poorer neighborhoods like mine. If
what you hoped for was jingoistic pride in a baseless & unjust war that
couldn't even be won, then hey, you're just gonna love the next GOP
convention.

How many memorials have been erected to the men who served in
Vietnam?

God I hope that was asked tongue in cheek.

More than for the Korean War for some reason.

And one of 'em is world-wide the most famous war memorial that exists,
with even a "travelling replica" that sets up here & there unvaryingly
with massive attendance. There are a great many lesser-known Vietname War
memorials listed here, with links & photos of each one:
http://www.vietvet.org/vietmems.htm
which documents not all that exist, since thousands more do exist in
cemeteries, & smaller plaques in city parks across the nation. But the
cited page finds a good many significant examples, in Alabama, Arkansas, a
half-dozen in California, Connecticut, Colorado, Florida, five in
Illinois, Indiana, two in Kansas, Kentucky, Maryland, three in
Massachusetts, two in Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, two in Missouri,
Montana, New Jersey, New Mexico has two, New York, North Carolina has two,
Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pensylvania has five, Texas has two, Utah,
Vermont, Virginia has two, West Virginia. Michigan, & Wyoming. There are
Vietnam War memorials additionally in Australia, New Zealand, two in
Canada, -- &amp perhaps most humblingly, the Vietnamese & American Peace
Park in Vietnam.

Of course, what we still need are more Vietnam Anti-War Memorials
commemorating homeland efforts & casualities, whose continuous pressures
& protests did eventually put an end to a nightmare, & without whom that
world-famous Memorial in D.C. would've had to have needed another wall
longer. Until the memorials arrive, here at least are a couple good places
to start for peace activists; it's still not too late to help out:

Veterans for Peace:
http://www.veteransforpeace.org/
Vietnam Vets Against the War:
http://www.vvaw.org/

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

I agree with everything you said, but indeed the returning soldiers were spat
on, and protested against, called baby killers and a whole barrage of horrible
things on TOP of their PTSD. Maybe where you live the soldiers were welcomed
home, but not in my part of the country, which was New York, at the time.

There were no welcome home parades, no facilities, or treatments. They were
denied everything that a person returning from bad wars should have received.

There was indeed damage to the men and whatever women who served. When they got
home, they were never celebrated for being freedom fighters. That's real.


On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:08:28 GMT, opined:

that is crap. it has nothing to do with how they are treated when they "get home".
all this nonsense about how badly the Viet Nam veterans were treated is bushwa
distraction for the real problem which is that government did almost nothing to help
them deal with their drug addictions (started in Viet Nam) nor their post traumatic
stress syndrome... for which there is really no cure. The correlation is how much
horror they have seen or committed and how crazy they are going to be afterwards. And
medical and mental care for many is going to be a lifetime of support. something our
citizens seems to be unwilling to think about much less make sure it is going to be
there.
the gov'ments response to agent orange, gulf war syndrome etc is the fund a
commission to look into it and take enough time that most of the victims die before
getting help. it has started already for our kids coming home with parts missing or
dead... we are not allowed to even see images of the coffins. and the seriously
injured are already dropping thru the cracks and due to the extended tour many of
them have lost their jobs.
I dont know anybody who treated returning VN vets badly when they returned. Maybe
there was a couple incidents, they made the news but it sure wasnt the norm or
average. Warm welcomes by strangers really isnt therapy for the horrors they have
seen and been thru. The real bad treatment was our gov'ment abdicating
responsibility for them after they returned home. Ingrid

(The Watcher) wrote:
The emotional damage could be a lot less if this country treated them better
when they returned.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.



Need a good, cheap, knowledge expanding present for yourself or a friend?
http://www.animaux.net/stern/present.html

Of course it's a lie. A bit one. Just today another big lie has been
uncovered. Our delightful VP did illegal work in Iran and Iraq when he was the
CEO or whatever office he held at Halliburton or Brown and Root. He outright
lied. Of course the argument could be he didn't know, but I doubt that.


On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:12:43 GMT, opined:

it really is a line of bullshit too, cause my teaching assistants boyfriend went into
the military so he could get money for college and they trained him to be a mechanic
and when he got out there WAS NO MONEY FOR COLLEGE. it is a lie. Ingrid

escapee wrote:
You don't consider 17 to be a kid? Geesh, I sure hope you don't have kids. The
problem is, the military sells a line of bullshit to kids in very poor areas of
the country. Areas where college is only a thought, not a goal. They are told
they will travel all over the world and get college for free. All this while we
all know that anyone can get a student loan or grant for college in this
country.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.



Need a good, cheap, knowledge expanding present for yourself or a friend?
http://www.animaux.net/stern/present.html

went into
the military so he could get money for college and they trained him to be a
mechanic
and when he got out there WAS NO MONEY FOR COLLEGE. it is a lie. Ingrid

So I guess the degree my son obtained while in the Navy is a figment of my
imagination, yes?

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:19:07 GMT, (The Watcher) opined:


That doesn't mean everything causes everything that happens after it, though.
Logic requires proof. When you claim something is true, you're expected to prove
it. You could just try hinting that it's true like Moore does, but for most
people that isn't enough proof.

I want you to give me three things Michael Moore lied about, was inaccurate
about, or hinted about. I'm asking for any three things you can "prove" he lied
about or got overblown by his position, or was untrue, or didn't have proper
research.

Which leader is that? Since terrorists have been "lashing out" for centuries,
you must be talking about several leaders.

Nope. The leader of our country in the United States, George W. Bush.

No, we're talking about one specific claim of cause and effect.

Correct, and we can look at the terrorist attacks and it is a fact that they
have more than doubled since the monkey said "Bring it on." No, there are no
scientific evidence provided, but I can see it's pretty clear...or coincidence,
but you cannot honestly sit at the glowing screen and tell me these barbaric
nations like our president.

In 15 years I served twice in Colorado, twice in Germany once in Georgia, once
in California. I did my Basic Training at Fort Polk, Louisiana, California, and did assorted
other training at other bases like Lowry Air Force Base in Denver and Fort Ben
Harrison in Indianapolis.

I was born on an Air Force base. Does that matter? Maybe you were a military
brat and you consider that serving?

When I got out I was a Staff Sergeant(E-6), on the Sergeant First Class list.

So you were never in Viet Nam?

I don't know about people like me, but I don't think in terms of black and
white. That's why I don't generally like emotional arguments like this "kids in
combat" one. That's a black and white argument.

Yeah, I said you think black and white and on this argument we're having, you
now concede to it. Thanks for that much.


Uh, weren't you paying attention to the news? They found Sarin and Mustard Gas
in Irag. Before we went into Iraq, Weapons of Mass Destruction were defined as
Nuclear, Biological, and CHEMICAL munitions. Both Sarin and Mustard Gas are
chemical munitions. I'd say that would constitute a shred of evidence that WMD
exist in Iraq.

Oh, I suppose you support a shred of evidence as reason to go into a country,
bomb the shit out of it, completely participate in the destruction of a people,
demanding they now be a democracy, that they should also now know all about the
Good News of Jesus Christ, etc...please, spare me the rhetoric. If they had
weapons of mass destruction, they'd have used them by now. The amounts of
biological or chemical weapons they found are not a blip on the radar.

Oh, were you a recruiter too?

No, were you? Are you trying to tell me the ads on my television which state how
great life is in the military, how you get a free education, and travel all over
the world, are figments of my imagination?

Well, I did travel over a LOT of the world, and did get the opportunity to go to
college. Nobody said it would be free, though.

Oh, well, they are saying that now. Colorado, Germany, Georgia, California,
Louisiana, and Indiana. Wow, heavy duty world travel.


I can tell you weren't ever a recruiter. If you think the GI college plan is the
only reason people join the military, that much is obvious.

I didn't say that, so I dont need to respond.


Thanks for the online diagnosis, but I think your diagnosis is badly mistaken,
since *I* didn't express MY opinion about the tragedy which is war. Sounds like
any opinions you're diagnosing are some you have inferred from somewhere.

Yes, personal experience of how horrible war is on the mind, and spirit. Worse
is a war based on lies being told by our president, which has continuously been
outed by sources of all types and natures, under many different headers.



Need a good, cheap, knowledge expanding present for yourself or a friend?
http://www.animaux.net/stern/present.html

In article ,
wrote:

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:19:07 GMT, (The Watcher) opined:


That doesn't mean everything causes everything that happens after it, though.
Logic requires proof. When you claim something is true, you're expected
to prove
it. You could just try hinting that it's true like Moore does, but for most
people that isn't enough proof.

I want you to give me three things Michael Moore lied about, was inaccurate
about, or hinted about. I'm asking for any three things you can "prove"
he lied
about or got overblown by his position, or was untrue, or didn't have proper
research.

The sad reality is Michael Moore UNDER-stated throughout! If he'd told it
all, it would've taken too long, & would have seemed truly impossible.
Like the Bush clan's long-term associations with sundry international
crime rings, none of that mentioned. Moore's film fails to note that many
of his failed business dealings were intended to fail after lining the
Shrub's pockets -- some were pay-back projects that began even while his
dad was Vice Prez and could effect legislation special legislation to
serve exclusively monied interests including the Bushes themselves. So
when Michael goes on about the oil company that never managed to dig even
one well, he failed to note that that was never really a business but a
scam, & Bush always got richer off these kinds of failed deals.

It's amazing to me that dewy-eyed right-wing naifs see Michael's
understatements as over-the-top. It makes me wonder if such ignorance is
self-imposed in order to remain deluded about the merits of George Dubya
Bush, or if such naivity & stupidity is truly inate to rightwingers.

-----------
-----------


REPOST:
AMERICA'S FOREMOST CRIME LORDS RULE AMERICA

The original robber barons as even the junior collegiate dictionary will
tell you were ruthless industrialists of the late 19th Century who
acquired vast wealth by any & all unethical means & used their wealth to
corrupt government. The Bush Family of Crime Lords are modern robber
barons. The Bush Family Crime Lords were at the heart of the Savings &
Loans robberies of millions upon millions of dollars out of the pockets of
the working masses, but with a clan member already serving as president,
he was not apt to let his own son go to prison, so only the working masses
ever suffered for this robbery. Today the Shrub is letting his fellow
robber baron billionaires off the hook for having to pay whatever taxes are
not already adequately sheltered, while promising the working classes a
kidney pie made out of our own kidneys.

The Bush family is one of the most corrupt in America, so it is weird that
republicans won't even now let go of the smaller corruptions of the no longer
relevant President Clinton. Should Democrats get up off their cowardly
asses & become as crude & grotesque as seated Republicans, the criminal
investigations of the Shrub directly & through his closest relations would
stop the Shrub presidency in its tracks, because it won't be about whether
he got a blowjob or not, it'll be about some of the worst most murderous
gangster style international thefts filtering right into Bush Family Crime
Lords' pockets. Yes all politicians are corrupt, & the Clintons veneer of
idealism has only ever provided the smallest buffer against the villainous
norm of the typical politician. But the Bush Family of Crime Lords goes
way, way, way beyond the typical. The current batch of Shrubbery
certainly never worked hard for anything unless you'd also categorize
safe-crackers & mere work-a-day felons as hardworking chaps.

But let's get some specifics. Below, I offer a short history lesson about
the vast & horrifying criminal doings of the Bush Family Crime Lords:

The Shrub's involvement with Saudi-connected BCCI through Harken Energy
Corporation gave Harken -- which had never previously drilled even one
offshore oil well -- exclusive rights to offshore Bahrain oil. The Shrub
was a major stockholder in the Texas company, & since his daddy was
president who waged a war all around Bahrain to protect "America's" oil
access, no need to be surprised that "America" is defined as the Bush
family exclusively.

Harken never did learn anything about oil wells & eventually bankrupted,
but not before the Shrub lined his pockets with millions & millions of
dollars. Scant weeks before Harken ceased to exist as a company, the Shrub
with insider information bailed out for a $850,000 profit in that one
crooked deal alone -- he illegally delayed reporting the crooked stock
deal for several weeks in an attempt to disguise the "timeliness" of a
profit made by violating SEC regulations. The 850 thousand was small
potatoes though -- estimates are he made 25-million off crooked oil deals
up to that point, always with the Poppa Tree & the whole god damned
American war machine backing him. Pretty good for an alcoholic, but when
you have a big crime family helping out, you don't need to have that much
personally on the ball.

The Shrub already had a long history dirty oil deals, as the Saudis well
knew when BCCI essentially gave Harken to the Bush family to suck dry for
the family's personal gain. The pay-back was in the first Bush
Administration's middle east policies -- & don't doubt for a minute that
the the present war has any nobler purpose,
the same old profitable shit is the goal. Consider:
Chicago-born Palestinian Talat Othman became an advisor to the senior
President Bush on middle eastern policies, resulting in Othman's meteoric
rise of power & fortune representing Bahraini oil sheikhs -- plus Othman
sat on the board of directors of -- guess where! -- the Shrub's Harken
Corp!

Paranoids can't make up better conspiracies than these well-documented &
sordid connections.

These deals & connections really do show Machiavelli to be the Shrub's
favorite philosopher. The trail of ruined lives in his wealth-amassing
path is a twenty year history of an abusive, evil drunkard who only
sobered up in order to enter politics dragging his corruption in his wake.
The Shrub has never earned an honest dollar. What of his wealth that was
not inherited was gained through corruption & theft.

The family that thieves together sticks together. Prescott Bush Jr during
his brother George's presidency cemented many dirty deals in China -- he
set up all the Chinese "expectations" that made them bold enough to try to
buy into the Clinton administration without success, so pretty damned
ironic the Republicans keep ringing the Yellow Peril Bell at Clinton when
it was all due to Prescott Bush's machinations for the Bush family. Ten
days before President Bush's stop in Japan, Prescott Bush was already
there drumming up business for Prescott Bush Resources Ltd. Having
acquired a co-partnership with Akoi Corporation he then went to Shanghai
where the Akoi company was still hated because of connections to wartime
atrocities, but Prescott with presidential backing paved the way for
Akoi's next conquests with heaps of pay-backs to the Bush clan.

Soon after, Asset Management Corp paid Prescott a personal fee of a
quarter-million dollars to help launch a major communications project that
would link Beijing by satellite to its furthest provinces. Why was
Prescott needed? Because he had influence with bro' President Senior --
the senior Bush was the only person in the entire United States with the
single-handed capacity to make a "national interest exception" to get
Asset Management around legislation BARRING any US company from selling
satellite technology to Communist China! (And once again, Republicans keep
pretending Clinton permitted China to obtain illegal technologies by
spying & influence-purchasing, when it was the Bush Crime Family all along
doing it for no other reason than the amassing of personal wealth no
matter how grievous the laws that are broken). The president acted
according to instruction. Akoi & Prescott's commandments resulting in a
$300-million profit to Asset, & several more large pay-offs & investment
rewards straight into the Bush coffers.

Meanwhile, Prescott cemented his relationship with the yakuza-run West
Tsusho, which bought out Asset Management. When I say Crime Family I'm not
being rhetorical; oil sheiks & yakuza gangs & the Bushes -- these are
natural partnerships.

So the Inagawakai branch of the yakuza with controlling interest in West
Tshusho today own China's communications system thanks to continuous
pay-offs to the Bush clan. The Inagawakai launder something like ten
billion dollars each year -- a good Bush resource there too, the bushes
being plugged into many cross-connecting money-laundering schemes since so
much of their crime family wealth was legally obtained by no stretch of
the imagination. Prescott, by the way, headed up covert business
operations with Reagon administration backing -- not that Reagon had
enough of his marbles to know what was up, but the powers behind him & the
senior Bush ARE the same robber barons now backing the Shrub's presidency.

So we're not talking about "mere" corrupt politicians who take big money
from big corporations & screw the people as pay-back. We're talking about
a long history of deep & profound corruption & the Bush clan seeking out
investments among oil sheikhs & gangsters throughout the world.

How about the shrub's brother Jeb Bush? What a crook! He was the Reagan
administration's unofficial link with the Contras & Nicaraguan exiles in
Miami, plus the same powerful gangster families that ran Havana before
Castro sent them fleeing to Miami & Nicaragua. Jeb's illegal activities
were orchestrated with backing of right-wing Guatemalan politician Dr.
Mario Castejon who dealt through Jeb with Vice President Bush (Reagan
being too brain-damaged & naive to be included in the loop of course).
Under the guise of a "Medical Bridge to the Contras" millions & millions
of dollars were fed to the Contras -- w/ huge pay-offs to Jeb. These
machinations were assisted by fall-guy & super-dork, Oliver North, so the
"medical bridge" was built by Jeb, George, Oliver, Castejon...& arms
dealer Henry Waley. $27 million in "humanitarian" aid to the Contras in
1985 hugely profited corrupt government officials, Miami & Guatemalan
gangsters, crooked arms dealers -- & inevitably the Bush clan.

And you thought Jeb's biggest crime was heading a corrupt party that
stopped black people from voting in Florida, & got George II appointed to
a throne without having to count actual votes.

So while the Shrub specialized in enriching the Bush clan with Saudi oil
sheikh connections, we find that Prescott was doing the same with Asian
yakuza connections, & Jeb with Contra & Miami gangster connections.

A contra-connected right-wing Cuban who was for many, many years VERY
powerful in Miami -- namely Miguel Recarey, Jr -- hired Jeb as a "real
estate consultant" though no consulting was ever done. The first of many
"consulting" fees was $75,000. Recarey ran an organization calling itself
"International Medical Centers" which was a major donor to the Dade County
Republicans. These same powers are today orchestrating no-paper-trail
computer voting methods that any moderately skillful hacker can & will
rearrange for crime lord interests.

One of the largest areas of organized criminal endeavors is to pretend to
sell millions upon millions of dollars of medical equipment to all &
sundry, billing the US government. Recarey was already barred from any
further billings to Medicare, but Jeb Bush & Dade County Republicans
intervened, & Recarey's company was soon siphoning federal funds to his
company once again. HHS Medicare fraud inspector, Leon Weinstein,
discovered Recarey's fraudulently gained profits -- embezzled through
medicare patients. These ill-gained profits, after padding Republican
coffers & paying off the Miami gangster families, went primarily to
support the Contras. Robert Teich, the head of the Drug Enforcement &
Labor Racketeering in Miami, reported that all the stolen funds were in
banks outside the US & could not be recovered; & gave evidence that Santos
Trafficante, Jr., Mafia boss of Florida, was behind Recarey -- the same
Trafficante who had twenty years earlier joined with the CIA in a failed
effort to assassinate Castro.

Recarey's criminal empire collapsed but he was "permitted" to flee to
Venezuela -- the Bush administration made not even token moves to
extradite him (to Robert Teich's consternation) since opening up Florida's
Cuba Mafia would be too embarrassing to the Bush clan, knee-deep as they
are in pay-offs & gains thanks to longstanding Cuban mafia connections.

And that barely scratches the surface of Jeb's connections to people like
right-winger & Cuban-American drug smuggler Leonel Martinez & many such
people whose names & histories have reached the press (who knows how many
others never publicly revealed). So A Vote for Any Bush is a Vote for the
Cuban Mafia & for cocaine flooding into the USA.

When you look at this family, the corruption is SO gigantic it is mindboggling.

How about Neil Bush? Good lord, what a criminal! I won't outline his
Russian Mafia connections & his Savings & Loan machinations to benefit the
Bush clan robbing thousands of Americans of their life savings. Of all the
criminals that make up the Bush Clan, only Neil's crimes have been widely
reported so I'm going to assume everyone knows Neil is a slime-ball of the
first order of villainy, who stayed out of prison strictly because of his
family connections & because all these criminal endeavors are so well
interconnected that to let one Bush go down would have a domino effect
that would shake the very foundations the most crime-based political
family America has ever seen.

The senior Bush was a CIA career man & as such became expert in
international crime. In many ways he seems to be the only one of the clan
with clean hands, but that's an illusion maintained by his lieutenants all
of whom have Bush as their last names, all of whom based their entries
into government on the senior Bush, & their profitable crime connections
cemented by the senior Bush's eagerness to shove the government in
directions benefiting exclusively his crime family coffers. He was a great
resource to his brother & his sons in cementing the Bush clan's
longstanding association with the Cuban mafia, Japanese yakuza,
drug-smuggling contras, corrupt oil sheikhs, whose international organized
crime power sucked life savings out of even working stiffs who put their
money in what they thought were safe savings & loans.

None of which even begins to address the Bush Crime Family's Nazi
affiliations which are also damnable, as Grampa Prescott was a chief nazi
banker & business partner of Fritz Thyssen, through whom Prescott helped
fund the rise of Hitler. The Thyssen-Prescott connection continued through
the war -- eight months after America entered the war, Prescott was
revealed as orchestrating & protecting Hitler's assets in New York
investments. Grampa George Herbert Walker was in on the same game as
wartime profiteers with continuing banking interests between New York &
Berlin. That the Bushes & Walkers were nazi sympathizers & big-time
financial supporters is not even a skeleton in the closet -- it has been
revealed many times with the soundest of documentation -- but Republicans
do what they can to suppress information, & Democrats are just such
chickenshits they won't take advantage of the truth & so deserve the
losses they've earned, in a world where even a clan of nazi sympathizers
can defeat them.

And this is only the tip of the iceberg of a gargantuan level of
corruption that two Bushes have brought right into the White House. No
matter how bad you imagine things to be, it's actually much worse.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

"D" wrote in message
...
I"m smart enough to know that G.W.Bush,
has kept the country safe from any terrorist attack for 2 1/2
yrs. But I
guess you have to be really smart to see that, and to see that
Al Gore
or John Kerry are not even in the same league as George W.
Bush.

GW's actions in iraq has probably spawned a couple more
generations of terrorists, surely not making us any safer in the
long term.

Bob

On 20 Jul 2004 17:02:48 GMT, (IntarsiaCo) opined:

went into
the military so he could get money for college and they trained him to be a
mechanic
and when he got out there WAS NO MONEY FOR COLLEGE. it is a lie. Ingrid

So I guess the degree my son obtained while in the Navy is a figment of my
imagination, yes?

He got lucky and probably wasn't serving in wartime. If I am wrong, I thank you
and all your family for the service he did in combat, and during any training he
did for our great nation. I love America. Freedom, however, is not free. I
can understand war on a very raw level, not deeper than that. What I don't
understand is the way the current administration can railroad all the people,
lie to the UN, misinform the troops, disguise a terrorist as if he hit the Twin
Towers, and we still have not found Osama. OR, they have found him and will
cart him out right before the election. The level of lies out of the current
administration is unmatched by any in the history of this country.


Need a good, cheap, knowledge expanding present for yourself or a friend?
http://www.animaux.net/stern/present.html

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:04:02 -0700, (paghat)
opined:

..

The sad reality is Michael Moore UNDER-stated throughout! If he'd told it
all, it would've taken too long, & would have seemed truly impossible.
Like the Bush clan's long-term associations with sundry international
crime rings, none of that mentioned. Moore's film fails to note that many
of his failed business dealings were intended to fail after lining the
Shrub's pockets -- some were pay-back projects that began even while his
dad was Vice Prez and could effect legislation special legislation to
serve exclusively monied interests including the Bushes themselves. So
when Michael goes on about the oil company that never managed to dig even
one well, he failed to note that that was never really a business but a
scam, & Bush always got richer off these kinds of failed deals.

It's amazing to me that dewy-eyed right-wing naifs see Michael's
understatements as over-the-top. It makes me wonder if such ignorance is
self-imposed in order to remain deluded about the merits of George Dubya
Bush, or if such naivity & stupidity is truly inate to rightwingers.

Sadly, it's the latter, I believe. You live in a fairly progressive part of the
nation. I live in the heart of Texas. Sure, Austin is the place to live if you
must live in Texas. It's quite liberal, multi-cultural, has a huge population
of University students and on the whole, a grand population of people, 67% of
which have higher education. Of that 67%, 24% have PhD level education.

However, there is a huge populous in other small towns, out in the hayseeds of
America which believe Bush loves them. Bush is a kreestchun and he's dewin the
loads workin's. Feh.

I will wait forever to hear the three things I ask for. Just three out of all
Moore's books, films or articles in featured magazines or interviews.

Victoria


-----------
-----------


REPOST:
AMERICA'S FOREMOST CRIME LORDS RULE AMERICA

The original robber barons as even the junior collegiate dictionary will
tell you were ruthless industrialists of the late 19th Century who
acquired vast wealth by any & all unethical means & used their wealth to
corrupt government. The Bush Family of Crime Lords are modern robber
barons. The Bush Family Crime Lords were at the heart of the Savings &
Loans robberies of millions upon millions of dollars out of the pockets of
the working masses, but with a clan member already serving as president,
he was not apt to let his own son go to prison, so only the working masses
ever suffered for this robbery. Today the Shrub is letting his fellow
robber baron billionaires off the hook for having to pay whatever taxes are
not already adequately sheltered, while promising the working classes a
kidney pie made out of our own kidneys.

The Bush family is one of the most corrupt in America, so it is weird that
republicans won't even now let go of the smaller corruptions of the no longer
relevant President Clinton. Should Democrats get up off their cowardly
asses & become as crude & grotesque as seated Republicans, the criminal
investigations of the Shrub directly & through his closest relations would
stop the Shrub presidency in its tracks, because it won't be about whether
he got a blowjob or not, it'll be about some of the worst most murderous
gangster style international thefts filtering right into Bush Family Crime
Lords' pockets. Yes all politicians are corrupt, & the Clintons veneer of
idealism has only ever provided the smallest buffer against the villainous
norm of the typical politician. But the Bush Family of Crime Lords goes
way, way, way beyond the typical. The current batch of Shrubbery
certainly never worked hard for anything unless you'd also categorize
safe-crackers & mere work-a-day felons as hardworking chaps.

But let's get some specifics. Below, I offer a short history lesson about
the vast & horrifying criminal doings of the Bush Family Crime Lords:

The Shrub's involvement with Saudi-connected BCCI through Harken Energy
Corporation gave Harken -- which had never previously drilled even one
offshore oil well -- exclusive rights to offshore Bahrain oil. The Shrub
was a major stockholder in the Texas company, & since his daddy was
president who waged a war all around Bahrain to protect "America's" oil
access, no need to be surprised that "America" is defined as the Bush
family exclusively.

Harken never did learn anything about oil wells & eventually bankrupted,
but not before the Shrub lined his pockets with millions & millions of
dollars. Scant weeks before Harken ceased to exist as a company, the Shrub
with insider information bailed out for a $850,000 profit in that one
crooked deal alone -- he illegally delayed reporting the crooked stock
deal for several weeks in an attempt to disguise the "timeliness" of a
profit made by violating SEC regulations. The 850 thousand was small
potatoes though -- estimates are he made 25-million off crooked oil deals
up to that point, always with the Poppa Tree & the whole god damned
American war machine backing him. Pretty good for an alcoholic, but when
you have a big crime family helping out, you don't need to have that much
personally on the ball.

The Shrub already had a long history dirty oil deals, as the Saudis well
knew when BCCI essentially gave Harken to the Bush family to suck dry for
the family's personal gain. The pay-back was in the first Bush
Administration's middle east policies -- & don't doubt for a minute that
the the present war has any nobler purpose,
the same old profitable shit is the goal. Consider:
Chicago-born Palestinian Talat Othman became an advisor to the senior
President Bush on middle eastern policies, resulting in Othman's meteoric
rise of power & fortune representing Bahraini oil sheikhs -- plus Othman
sat on the board of directors of -- guess where! -- the Shrub's Harken
Corp!

Paranoids can't make up better conspiracies than these well-documented &
sordid connections.

These deals & connections really do show Machiavelli to be the Shrub's
favorite philosopher. The trail of ruined lives in his wealth-amassing
path is a twenty year history of an abusive, evil drunkard who only
sobered up in order to enter politics dragging his corruption in his wake.
The Shrub has never earned an honest dollar. What of his wealth that was
not inherited was gained through corruption & theft.

The family that thieves together sticks together. Prescott Bush Jr during
his brother George's presidency cemented many dirty deals in China -- he
set up all the Chinese "expectations" that made them bold enough to try to
buy into the Clinton administration without success, so pretty damned
ironic the Republicans keep ringing the Yellow Peril Bell at Clinton when
it was all due to Prescott Bush's machinations for the Bush family. Ten
days before President Bush's stop in Japan, Prescott Bush was already
there drumming up business for Prescott Bush Resources Ltd. Having
acquired a co-partnership with Akoi Corporation he then went to Shanghai
where the Akoi company was still hated because of connections to wartime
atrocities, but Prescott with presidential backing paved the way for
Akoi's next conquests with heaps of pay-backs to the Bush clan.

Soon after, Asset Management Corp paid Prescott a personal fee of a
quarter-million dollars to help launch a major communications project that
would link Beijing by satellite to its furthest provinces. Why was
Prescott needed? Because he had influence with bro' President Senior --
the senior Bush was the only person in the entire United States with the
single-handed capacity to make a "national interest exception" to get
Asset Management around legislation BARRING any US company from selling
satellite technology to Communist China! (And once again, Republicans keep
pretending Clinton permitted China to obtain illegal technologies by
spying & influence-purchasing, when it was the Bush Crime Family all along
doing it for no other reason than the amassing of personal wealth no
matter how grievous the laws that are broken). The president acted
according to instruction. Akoi & Prescott's commandments resulting in a
$300-million profit to Asset, & several more large pay-offs & investment
rewards straight into the Bush coffers.

Meanwhile, Prescott cemented his relationship with the yakuza-run West
Tsusho, which bought out Asset Management. When I say Crime Family I'm not
being rhetorical; oil sheiks & yakuza gangs & the Bushes -- these are
natural partnerships.

So the Inagawakai branch of the yakuza with controlling interest in West
Tshusho today own China's communications system thanks to continuous
pay-offs to the Bush clan. The Inagawakai launder something like ten
billion dollars each year -- a good Bush resource there too, the bushes
being plugged into many cross-connecting money-laundering schemes since so
much of their crime family wealth was legally obtained by no stretch of
the imagination. Prescott, by the way, headed up covert business
operations with Reagon administration backing -- not that Reagon had
enough of his marbles to know what was up, but the powers behind him & the
senior Bush ARE the same robber barons now backing the Shrub's presidency.

So we're not talking about "mere" corrupt politicians who take big money
from big corporations & screw the people as pay-back. We're talking about
a long history of deep & profound corruption & the Bush clan seeking out
investments among oil sheikhs & gangsters throughout the world.

How about the shrub's brother Jeb Bush? What a crook! He was the Reagan
administration's unofficial link with the Contras & Nicaraguan exiles in
Miami, plus the same powerful gangster families that ran Havana before
Castro sent them fleeing to Miami & Nicaragua. Jeb's illegal activities
were orchestrated with backing of right-wing Guatemalan politician Dr.
Mario Castejon who dealt through Jeb with Vice President Bush (Reagan
being too brain-damaged & naive to be included in the loop of course).
Under the guise of a "Medical Bridge to the Contras" millions & millions
of dollars were fed to the Contras -- w/ huge pay-offs to Jeb. These
machinations were assisted by fall-guy & super-dork, Oliver North, so the
"medical bridge" was built by Jeb, George, Oliver, Castejon...& arms
dealer Henry Waley. $27 million in "humanitarian" aid to the Contras in
1985 hugely profited corrupt government officials, Miami & Guatemalan
gangsters, crooked arms dealers -- & inevitably the Bush clan.

And you thought Jeb's biggest crime was heading a corrupt party that
stopped black people from voting in Florida, & got George II appointed to
a throne without having to count actual votes.

So while the Shrub specialized in enriching the Bush clan with Saudi oil
sheikh connections, we find that Prescott was doing the same with Asian
yakuza connections, & Jeb with Contra & Miami gangster connections.

A contra-connected right-wing Cuban who was for many, many years VERY
powerful in Miami -- namely Miguel Recarey, Jr -- hired Jeb as a "real
estate consultant" though no consulting was ever done. The first of many
"consulting" fees was $75,000. Recarey ran an organization calling itself
"International Medical Centers" which was a major donor to the Dade County
Republicans. These same powers are today orchestrating no-paper-trail
computer voting methods that any moderately skillful hacker can & will
rearrange for crime lord interests.

One of the largest areas of organized criminal endeavors is to pretend to
sell millions upon millions of dollars of medical equipment to all &
sundry, billing the US government. Recarey was already barred from any
further billings to Medicare, but Jeb Bush & Dade County Republicans
intervened, & Recarey's company was soon siphoning federal funds to his
company once again. HHS Medicare fraud inspector, Leon Weinstein,
discovered Recarey's fraudulently gained profits -- embezzled through
medicare patients. These ill-gained profits, after padding Republican
coffers & paying off the Miami gangster families, went primarily to
support the Contras. Robert Teich, the head of the Drug Enforcement &
Labor Racketeering in Miami, reported that all the stolen funds were in
banks outside the US & could not be recovered; & gave evidence that Santos
Trafficante, Jr., Mafia boss of Florida, was behind Recarey -- the same
Trafficante who had twenty years earlier joined with the CIA in a failed
effort to assassinate Castro.

Recarey's criminal empire collapsed but he was "permitted" to flee to
Venezuela -- the Bush administration made not even token moves to
extradite him (to Robert Teich's consternation) since opening up Florida's
Cuba Mafia would be too embarrassing to the Bush clan, knee-deep as they
are in pay-offs & gains thanks to longstanding Cuban mafia connections.

And that barely scratches the surface of Jeb's connections to people like
right-winger & Cuban-American drug smuggler Leonel Martinez & many such
people whose names & histories have reached the press (who knows how many
others never publicly revealed). So A Vote for Any Bush is a Vote for the
Cuban Mafia & for cocaine flooding into the USA.

When you look at this family, the corruption is SO gigantic it is mindboggling.

How about Neil Bush? Good lord, what a criminal! I won't outline his
Russian Mafia connections & his Savings & Loan machinations to benefit the
Bush clan robbing thousands of Americans of their life savings. Of all the
criminals that make up the Bush Clan, only Neil's crimes have been widely
reported so I'm going to assume everyone knows Neil is a slime-ball of the
first order of villainy, who stayed out of prison strictly because of his
family connections & because all these criminal endeavors are so well
interconnected that to let one Bush go down would have a domino effect
that would shake the very foundations the most crime-based political
family America has ever seen.

The senior Bush was a CIA career man & as such became expert in
international crime. In many ways he seems to be the only one of the clan
with clean hands, but that's an illusion maintained by his lieutenants all
of whom have Bush as their last names, all of whom based their entries
into government on the senior Bush, & their profitable crime connections
cemented by the senior Bush's eagerness to shove the government in
directions benefiting exclusively his crime family coffers. He was a great
resource to his brother & his sons in cementing the Bush clan's
longstanding association with the Cuban mafia, Japanese yakuza,
drug-smuggling contras, corrupt oil sheikhs, whose international organized
crime power sucked life savings out of even working stiffs who put their
money in what they thought were safe savings & loans.

None of which even begins to address the Bush Crime Family's Nazi
affiliations which are also damnable, as Grampa Prescott was a chief nazi
banker & business partner of Fritz Thyssen, through whom Prescott helped
fund the rise of Hitler. The Thyssen-Prescott connection continued through
the war -- eight months after America entered the war, Prescott was
revealed as orchestrating & protecting Hitler's assets in New York
investments. Grampa George Herbert Walker was in on the same game as
wartime profiteers with continuing banking interests between New York &
Berlin. That the Bushes & Walkers were nazi sympathizers & big-time
financial supporters is not even a skeleton in the closet -- it has been
revealed many times with the soundest of documentation -- but Republicans
do what they can to suppress information, & Democrats are just such
chickenshits they won't take advantage of the truth & so deserve the
losses they've earned, in a world where even a clan of nazi sympathizers
can defeat them.

And this is only the tip of the iceberg of a gargantuan level of
corruption that two Bushes have brought right into the White House. No
matter how bad you imagine things to be, it's actually much worse.

-paghat the ratgirl



Need a good, cheap, knowledge expanding present for yourself or a friend?
http://www.animaux.net/stern/present.html

This is untrue. Many of us had our education funded by the VA. If he
didn't get any, perhaps he waited too long, or had a bad discharge.

wrote:
it really is a line of bullshit too, cause my teaching assistants boyfriend went into
the military so he could get money for college and they trained him to be a mechanic
and when he got out there WAS NO MONEY FOR COLLEGE. it is a lie. Ingrid

escapee wrote:

You don't consider 17 to be a kid? Geesh, I sure hope you don't have kids. The
problem is, the military sells a line of bullshit to kids in very poor areas of
the country. Areas where college is only a thought, not a goal. They are told
they will travel all over the world and get college for free. All this while we
all know that anyone can get a student loan or grant for college in this
country.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

--
SPAMBLOCK NOTICE! To reply to me, delete the h from apkh.net, if it is
there.

In article ,
wrote:

On 20 Jul 2004 17:02:48 GMT, (IntarsiaCo) opined:

went into
the military so he could get money for college and they trained him to be a
mechanic
and when he got out there WAS NO MONEY FOR COLLEGE. it is a lie. Ingrid

So I guess the degree my son obtained while in the Navy is a figment of my
imagination, yes?

He got lucky and probably wasn't serving in wartime.

My ex, Sheri, was a Vietnam era vet, though she spent the war stateside.
After she was mustered out she had the GI Bill which gained her great
terms on buying a condominium, & funding to go back to school. But vets
who served a few years later got nothing beyond whatever they could gain
educationally while in the service. The one remaining big perk after
serving was access to an underfunded medical system that itself killed a
lot of vets unnecessarily; that system is working a LITTLE better just
now, but needs vigilant watchdogging by veteran activists or it would go
all to shit again. However, you could even now get a good education by
qualifying for an officer's program through the NROTC, & that can be a
very good education followed afterward by service.

-paghat the ratgirl

If I am wrong, I thank you
and all your family for the service he did in combat, and during any
training he
did for our great nation. I love America. Freedom, however, is not free. I
can understand war on a very raw level, not deeper than that. What I don't
understand is the way the current administration can railroad all the people,
lie to the UN, misinform the troops, disguise a terrorist as if he hit
the Twin
Towers, and we still have not found Osama. OR, they have found him and will
cart him out right before the election. The level of lies out of the current
administration is unmatched by any in the history of this country.


Need a good, cheap, knowledge expanding present for yourself or a friend?
http://www.animaux.net/stern/present.html

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com