In article flQ_c.382324$%_6.49678@attbi_s01,
Warren wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/31/po...XT-ARNOLD.html

He doesn't say the word "debate", but it sure sounds like he's referring
to one specific occasion when he heard one speak after the other.

... at least to a Dem who wants to lie what he said in order to make a
personal attack.


billo

"Bill Oliver" wrote in message
...
In article flQ_c.382324$%_6.49678@attbi_s01,
Warren wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/31/po...XT-ARNOLD.html

He doesn't say the word "debate", but it sure sounds like he's referring
to one specific occasion when he heard one speak after the other.

.. at least to a Dem who wants to lie what he said in order to make a
personal attack.


But why bring up Zell Miller?

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...=1094206566890

"Arnold ridiculed for Austrian history gaffe

FROM ASSOCIATED PRESS
VIENNA, Austria — Austrian historians are ridiculing California Gov. Arnold
Schwarzenegger for telling the U.S. Republican convention that he saw Soviet tanks in
his homeland as a child and left a "Socialist" country when he moved away in 1968.

Recalling that the Soviets once occupied part of Austria in the aftermath of the
Second World War, Schwarzenegger told the convention on Tuesday: "I saw tanks in the
streets. I saw communism with my own eyes."

No way, historians say, challenging Schwarzenegger's knowledge of postwar history —
if not his enduring popularity among Austrians who admire him for rising from a
penniless immigrant to the highest official in America's most populous state.

"It's a fact — as a child he could not have seen a Soviet tank in Styria," the
southeastern province where Schwarzenegger was born and raised, historian Stefan
Karner told the Vienna newspaper Kurier.

Schwarzenegger, now a naturalized U.S. citizen, was born on July 30, 1947, when
Styria and the neighbouring province of Carinthia belonged to the British zone. At
the time, postwar Austria was occupied by the four wartime allies, which also
included the United States, the Soviet Union and France.

The Soviets already had left Styria in July 1945, less than three months after the
end of the war, Karner noted.

In his convention address, Schwarzenegger also said: "As a kid, I saw the socialist
country that Austria became after the Soviets left" in 1955 and Austria regained its
independence.

But Martin Polaschek, a law history scholar and vice-rector of Graz University, told
Kurier that Austria was governed by coalition governments, including the conservative
People's party and the Social Democratic party. Between 1945 and 1970, all the
nation's chancellors were conservatives — not socialists.

Polaschek saw the moderate Republican governor's recollections at the convention as a
tactical move. Schwarzenegger, he said, was "using the old Communist enemy image for
Bush's election campaign."

"He did not speak as a historian, after all, but as a politician," Polaschek said.

Norbert Darabos, a ranking official of Austria's opposition Social Democratic party,
sharply criticized Schwarzenegger's "disdain for his former homeland."

"The Terminator is constructing a rather bizarre Austria image," he said."

now this is the Toronto star, Canadian newspaper where reporters still know how to
report. no where in US papers have I been able to find a similar story. Ingrid


(Bill Oliver) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
I especially find Schwarzeneggers lies insanely funny. The guy was born in 47 two
years after the soviet union left the country ....


Do you just make this stuff up? Austrian independence occurred in 1955.
The last 40,000 troops left in September.

http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-813.html



billo



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

In article ,
wrote:

"It's a fact — as a child he could not have seen a Soviet tank in Styria," the
southeastern province where Schwarzenegger was born and raised, historian Stefan
Karner told the Vienna newspaper Kurier.


Keep on trying. Once again you repeat lies about what he said. He didn't
say he saw tanks in Styria. He talked about crossing *into* the Soviet
controlled sector. You care *nothing* about the truth, do you?

billo

I wonder if the fear was the produced by his father knowing he was a Nazi?

(Bill Oliver) wrote:
I remember the fear we had when we had to cross into the Soviet
sector.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Speaking of Socialism...one way to meet Edward's plan of providing
insurance to all Americans like Congressmen get without raising taxes
would be to socialize medicine.

'Course that would **** off the rich doctors...but since that group
falls in the rich group that pays CPAs to get them around new taxes
anyway, they would be such a minority.

$750 for an Ambulance ride. $1000-$5000 for EVERY visit to an ER...

Was it Norway or Sweden that did it right? Pretty sure it wasn't
Austria...

:)

John


"Bill Oliver" wrote in message
...
In article ,
wrote:

"It's a fact - as a child he could not have seen a Soviet tank in
Styria," the
southeastern province where Schwarzenegger was born and raised,
historian Stefan
Karner told the Vienna newspaper Kurier.


Keep on trying. Once again you repeat lies about what he said. He
didn't
say he saw tanks in Styria. He talked about crossing *into* the
Soviet
controlled sector. You care *nothing* about the truth, do you?

billo

"John T. Jarrett" wrote in message
...
Speaking of Socialism...one way to meet Edward's plan of providing
insurance to all Americans like Congressmen get without raising taxes
would be to socialize medicine.

'Course that would **** off the rich doctors...but since that group
falls in the rich group that pays CPAs to get them around new taxes
anyway, they would be such a minority.

$750 for an Ambulance ride. $1000-$5000 for EVERY visit to an ER...

Was it Norway or Sweden that did it right? Pretty sure it wasn't
Austria...


But doctors don't collect the fees from the ambulances company nor do they
get the exorbitant fees from the ER. Huge corporations like ARA/Spectrum
(or what ever they call themselves these days) often run ERs and simply pay
doctors, who are subcontracts, a fixed fee. This is the same giant that
feeds people at the Olympics, runs hospital and industrial food services,
provides linens and uniforms to hospitals and the hospitality industry, and
runs the medical operations in thousands of jails and prison under a
subsidiary called "Correctional Medical Systems.". They are literally the
Halliburton of their industry.

While physician salaries are handsome in comparison to the average worker,
earning from $116K for a GP to around $220K for an obgyn, they are highly
educated, work long hours, and work in a high-stress situation often caught
between patient's needs and insurance company demands.
http://www.memag.com/be_core/MVC?mag...usive+s urvey

I think that the high cost of healthcare is more rightly attributed to
insurance companies, corporate healthcare providers, and pharmaceutical
manufacturers. Let's not forget that piece of the puzzle is waste and
fraud. And speaking of fraud, Bill First (R) Tenn., Senate Majority
Leader's family business, HCA, perpetrated the largest medical billing fraud
in US history resulting in $1.7 BILLION in fines and penalties!!!!!
The Bad Doctor
Bill Frist’s long record of corporate vices
by Doug Ireland

While TV gushed last week over the Republicans’ new Senate majority leader,
Bill Frist, intervening in a traffic accident, portraying the former heart
surgeon as a "Good Samaritan," in truth the GOP has simply replaced a racist
with a corporate crook.

Frist was born rich, and got richer — thanks to massive criminal fraud by
the family business. The basis of the Frist family fortune is HCA Inc.
(Hospital Corporation of America), the largest for-profit hospital chain in
the country, which was founded by Frist’s father and brother. And, just as
Karl Rove was engineering the scuttling of Trent Lott and the elevation of
Frist, the Bush Justice Department suddenly ended a near-decadelong federal
investigation into how HCA for years had defrauded Medicaid, Medicare and
Tricare (the federal program that covers the military and their families),
giving the greedy health-care behemoth’s executives a sweetheart settlement
that kept them out of the can.

The government’s case was that HCA kept two sets of books and fraudulently
overbilled the government. The deal meant that HCA agreed to pay the
government $631 million for its lucrative scams — which, on top of previous
fines, brought the total government penalties against the health-care
conglomerate to a whopping $1.7 billion, the largest fraud settlement in
history, breaking the old record set by Drexel Burnham.

The deal also meant that HCA can continue to participate in Medicare. And,
as part of the Bushies’ deal shutting down what Deputy Assistant FBI
Director Thomas Kubic called "one of the FBI’s highest-priority white-collar
crime investigations," no criminal charges were brought against the top HCA
execs who presided over the illegal bilking of federal programs designed to
aid the poor — and that includes Senator Frist’s brother, Thomas, HCA’s
former CEO (and current director), who’s been described by Forbes magazine
as "one of the richest men in America," with a personal fortune estimated at
close to $2 billion.

What did HCA do? It inflated its expenses and billed the government for the
overrun; it billed the government for services ineligible for reimbursement
(like advertising and marketing costs). HCA violated both law and medical
ethics when, as Forbes put it, "the company increased Medicare billings by
exaggerating the seriousness of the illnesses they were treating. It also
granted doctors partnerships in company hospitals as a kickback for the
doctors’ referring patients to HCA. In addition, it gave doctors ‘loans’
that were never expected to be paid back, free rent, free office furniture —
and free drugs from hospital pharmacies."

This is the ethical climate that reigned in the Frist family’s money
machine. In an unguarded moment, Senator Frist told the Boston Globe that
conversations with his doctor father about the family calling were like
"benign versions of the Godfather and Michael Corleone." Apparently the
senator considers defrauding the government "benign." So too does the Bush
White House, which dictated the Justice Department deal with HCA that let
the crooks escape jail just as Frist was being anointed the Senate’s
majority leader. A pure coincidence in timing, of course.

The senator has always claimed no current connection to HCA because the $26
million he and his wife hold in the company’s stock is in a so-called "blind
trust." But it was the family’s dirty money that bought Frist a place in the
Senate. In 1994, Frist — who’d never bothered to vote before first running
for the Senate that year — spent some $3.4 million of his personal fortune
to buy the seat from Tennessee (HCA’s headquarters) that he now occupies.
Moreover, "In the Senate, Frist has used his influence to further HCA’s
cause by stopping a strong patients’ bill of rights, gridlocking a mandatory
Medicare prescription-drug benefit, and promoting caps on damages for
victims who sue negligent hospitals like HCA’s," points out Jamie Court,
executive director of the Santa Monica–based Foundation for Taxpayer and
Consumer Rights, who adds, "The Senate should not replace a racist with a
principal backer of one of the largest corporate swindles ever perpetrated
against the American public. If Frist was a patriot first, he would have
sold his HCA stock long ago."

But Frist’s pandering to the lobbyists of the voracious health-care industry
knows no bounds. "Frist isn’t the senator from Tennessee — he’s the senator
from the state of Health Care Industry Influence — he’s gotten more than $2
million from the health-care sector, giving him the dubious distinction of
raising more cash from health-care interests than 98 percent of his
colleagues," says Nick Nyhart, executive director of Public Campaign.

Consider the special servicing he gave to pharmaceutical giant Eli Lilly. In
another example of his "patriotism," Frist engineered the insertion into the
Homeland Security bill of a provision that would protect Eli Lilly from
lawsuits over Thimerosal, a mercury-based preservative used in its vaccines.
Thousands of lawsuits have been filed against Lilly by parents who believe
Thimerosal caused autism and other neurological maladies in their kids. The
Frist-authored rider shields Lilly by forcing those lawsuits into a special
"vaccine court," where they can be easily scuttled, potentially saving Lilly
hundreds of millions. The pharmaceutical industry was the largest single
contributor to the National Republican Senatorial Campaign Committee that
Frist chaired, ladling out some $4 million — and Lilly was the single
biggest contributor to the GOP from that industry, having given $1.6 million
in the last election cycle, 79 percent of it to Republicans.

The good Dr. Frist voted against patients’ rights to sue their HMOs for
failure to provide adequate treatment, and voted to give tax subsidies to
HMOs and insurance companies to offer prescription drugs to seniors, rather
than providing them through Medicare. Frist has, of course, personally raked
it in from the interested industries, gobbling up $123,750 in campaign cash
from the HMOs and $265,023 from the pharmaceutical industry. Frist also took
$130,204 from the food-processing industry — and then helped kill a bill
putting teeth into the USDA’s authority to crack down on processing plants
that violate federal standards for bacterial and viral infection of meat and
poultry.

There’s a lot more, like this — so much that it leads to an inescapable
conclusion: In the Senate, "Good Samaritan" Frist has almost daily violated
the injunction of the physicians’ Hippocratic oath: "First, do no harm."

http://www.laweekly.com/ink/03/08/news-ireland.php

Oh, I certainly wasn't trying to leave any corporations out of the
deal. I've seen doctors making enough to live nicely but not pay the
medical liability insurance.

I don't know about HCA but I've learned more than I like about Lilly.

Ely Lilly is not only infamous for developing LSD for the CIA and then
helping to run trials on soldiers (as if there weren't enough of these
guys dieing for our country in Vietnam already!) but also holds enough
Board seats at Time to decide what you read and see on TV.

Why in the world does a drug company weild that kind of weight?

We've known for 10 years the number one side effect of Lilly's Prozac
is attempted suicide, the FDA knew it before that, and you just now
read news stories about how kids are committing suicide on
anti-depressants?

That's just not right. And now they want to give Prozac to people to
solve addiction to other drugs.

At $6 a pill, man, talk about a cash cow...yet they literally can
prevent you reading about the known side effects for ten
years...that's just not right. And of course they are only talking
about studies done on kids...they still don't mention adults.

John

In article ,
wrote:
I wonder if the fear was the produced by his father knowing he was a Nazi?


Getting desperate, are you?

billo

Bill Oliver wrote:
In article ,
wrote:

"It's a fact — as a child he could not have seen a Soviet tank in Styria," the
southeastern province where Schwarzenegger was born and raised, historian Stefan
Karner told the Vienna newspaper Kurier.



Keep on trying. Once again you repeat lies about what he said. He didn't
say he saw tanks in Styria. He talked about crossing *into* the Soviet
controlled sector. You care *nothing* about the truth, do you?

billo




Confronting Liberals with the facts of reality is very much akin to
clubbing baby seals. It gets boring after a while, but because
Liberals are so stupid it is easy work." Steven M. Barry

squirrel baiter wrote in
:



Bill Oliver wrote:
In article ,
wrote:

"It's a fact — as a child he could not have seen a Soviet tank in
Styria," the southeastern province where Schwarzenegger was born and
raised, historian Stefan Karner told the Vienna newspaper Kurier.



Keep on trying. Once again you repeat lies about what he said. He
didn't say he saw tanks in Styria. He talked about crossing *into*
the Soviet controlled sector. You care *nothing* about the truth, do
you?

billo




Confronting Liberals with the facts of reality is very much akin to
clubbing baby seals. It gets boring after a while, but because
Liberals are so stupid it is easy work." Steven M. Barry


"Passing off lies to Conservatives as some sort of universal truth is
very much like indoctrinating young children. It gets boring after a
while, but because Conservatives are so eager to believe anything said by
anyone who presents a modicum of authority, it is easy work, and the pay
off is quite substantial." Harold M. Hastings

expounded:

I especially find Schwarzeneggers lies insanely funny. The guy was born in 47 two
years after the soviet union left the country .... but that doesnt stop Arnold
Schwarzenegger from rhapsodizing about seeing soviet tanks in the streets when he was
a kid .. or living under socialism at a time when the conservatives were running the
country. all of which is some fantasy/play/ script he has for himself and it really
is "true lies". we really have to stop electing people who want to PLAY at being the
president and elect somebody who wants to do the very hard work of being the
president. Ingrid

So you must really crack up when Kerry spews on and on about hearing
about the death of Martin Luther King while he was in
Vietnam.....funny thing is he wasn't there until November, and MLK
died in April of that year..............
--
Ann, Gardening in zone 6a
Just south of Boston, MA
********************************

expounded:

I wonder if the fear was the produced by his father knowing he was a Nazi?

Try to remember that Arnold didn't think enough of his father to go to
his funeral. There was no love lost there. Arnold knows what his
father was.

--
Ann, Gardening in zone 6a
Just south of Boston, MA
********************************

Bill, if you read the complete message that I wrote, you will see that
newspaper and television interviews of Austrians living in the Soviet sector
after WWII agree that they didn't ever see Soviet tanks in the
streets........but again, please don't let the facts interfere with your
opinions.....
Let me see.Schwarzenegger, who was 7 when the Soviets left Austria
completely, traveled so often in his young childhood from his
British-controlled province into the Soviet controlled area that he somehow
caught a glimpse of something that the people who lived there year-round for
those 7 years never saw..... pretty amazing....particularly when you
consider the economic devastation of Austria after the war, in which
pleasure travel was hardly common.
If you can produce some evidence from Austrians interviewed in the
former Soviet sector saying that is was common to see Soviet tanks in the
streets, then, and ONLY then, will I consider your post as anything other
than nonsense......
"Bill Oliver" wrote in message Greg, you are a hoo.
Apparently you are so eager to claim that
Schwarzenegger lied, you don't even care what he said. He did
not say that he saw tanks in his provence of Austria. He said
he saw tanks when he *crossed into the Soviet sector."

To be specific:

I saw their tanks in the streets. I saw Communism with my own eyes.
I remember the fear we had when we had to cross into the Soviet
sector.

It is a measure of the desperation of the Dem personal attack machine
that your lies are becoming so fragile. You should demand more from
your handlers.

billo

In article ,
gregpresley wrote:
Bill, if you read the complete message that I wrote, you will see that
newspaper and television interviews of Austrians living in the Soviet sector
after WWII agree that they didn't ever see Soviet tanks in the
streets........but again, please don't let the facts interfere with your
opinions.....

I hate to tell you this, but there were 40,000 Soviet troops in
Austria until 1955. Stealth technology was not *nearly* as good
then as it is now, and nobody had invented invisible tanks at
that time.

I'll tell you what, though, there *is* a way you can prove
Arnold wrong. Show me that the Soviets didn't have any
tanks *stationed* in Austria. If you know anything about
Soviet doctrine, you know you will not be able to.

As it stands, Schwarzenegger said that *when he crossed
to the Soviet sector* he saw Soviet tanks. There were
40,000 Soviet troops there, and Soviet doctrine was
tank-heavy. Unless you believe in invisible soldiers,
you are ****ing in the wind.


completely, traveled so often in his young childhood from his
British-controlled province into the Soviet controlled area that he somehow
caught a glimpse of something that the people who lived there year-round for
those 7 years never saw..... pretty amazing....particularly when you
consider the economic devastation of Austria after the war, in which
pleasure travel was hardly common.

Funny, I don't remember Schwarzenegger saying it was "pleasure travel."
When I was a kid, I traveled with my uncles when they delivered cattle.
Perhaps you would be more convincing if you didn't insist on pretending
he said things he didn't say. I know it's *so* much harder to claim
a lie when you stick to what he actually said.

If you can produce some evidence from Austrians interviewed in the
former Soviet sector saying that is was common to see Soviet tanks in the
streets, then, and ONLY then, will I consider your post as anything other
than nonsense......

Where did he say "common." I once saw an artillery piece driving
near Ft. Sill in Oklahoma. That doesn't imply that there was a battery
stationed in Okalhoma City. Once again, you would probably be more
convincing if you argued against what he *said* rather than extrapolations
and fantasies about what the Dems *wish* he'd said.

billo