exactly... the physicians I know would love some kind of national health care plan.
Ingrid

"Vox Humana" wrote:
But doctors don't collect the fees from the ambulances company nor do they
get the exorbitant fees from the ER. Huge corporations like ARA/Spectrum
(or what ever they call themselves these days) often run ERs and simply pay
doctors, who are subcontracts, a fixed fee. This is the same giant that
feeds people at the Olympics, runs hospital and industrial food services,
provides linens and uniforms to hospitals and the hospitality industry, and
runs the medical operations in thousands of jails and prison under a
subsidiary called "Correctional Medical Systems.". They are literally the
Halliburton of their industry.

While physician salaries are handsome in comparison to the average worker,
earning from $116K for a GP to around $220K for an obgyn, they are highly
educated, work long hours, and work in a high-stress situation often caught
between patient's needs and insurance company demands.
http://www.memag.com/be_core/MVC?mag...usive+s urvey

I think that the high cost of healthcare is more rightly attributed to
insurance companies, corporate healthcare providers, and pharmaceutical
manufacturers. Let's not forget that piece of the puzzle is waste and
fraud. And speaking of fraud, Bill First (R) Tenn., Senate Majority
Leader's family business, HCA, perpetrated the largest medical billing fraud
in US history resulting in $1.7 BILLION in fines and penalties!!!!!
The Bad Doctor
Bill Frist’s long record of corporate vices
by Doug Ireland

While TV gushed last week over the Republicans’ new Senate majority leader,
Bill Frist, intervening in a traffic accident, portraying the former heart
surgeon as a "Good Samaritan," in truth the GOP has simply replaced a racist
with a corporate crook.

Frist was born rich, and got richer — thanks to massive criminal fraud by
the family business. The basis of the Frist family fortune is HCA Inc.
(Hospital Corporation of America), the largest for-profit hospital chain in
the country, which was founded by Frist’s father and brother. And, just as
Karl Rove was engineering the scuttling of Trent Lott and the elevation of
Frist, the Bush Justice Department suddenly ended a near-decadelong federal
investigation into how HCA for years had defrauded Medicaid, Medicare and
Tricare (the federal program that covers the military and their families),
giving the greedy health-care behemoth’s executives a sweetheart settlement
that kept them out of the can.

The government’s case was that HCA kept two sets of books and fraudulently
overbilled the government. The deal meant that HCA agreed to pay the
government $631 million for its lucrative scams — which, on top of previous
fines, brought the total government penalties against the health-care
conglomerate to a whopping $1.7 billion, the largest fraud settlement in
history, breaking the old record set by Drexel Burnham.

The deal also meant that HCA can continue to participate in Medicare. And,
as part of the Bushies’ deal shutting down what Deputy Assistant FBI
Director Thomas Kubic called "one of the FBI’s highest-priority white-collar
crime investigations," no criminal charges were brought against the top HCA
execs who presided over the illegal bilking of federal programs designed to
aid the poor — and that includes Senator Frist’s brother, Thomas, HCA’s
former CEO (and current director), who’s been described by Forbes magazine
as "one of the richest men in America," with a personal fortune estimated at
close to $2 billion.

What did HCA do? It inflated its expenses and billed the government for the
overrun; it billed the government for services ineligible for reimbursement
(like advertising and marketing costs). HCA violated both law and medical
ethics when, as Forbes put it, "the company increased Medicare billings by
exaggerating the seriousness of the illnesses they were treating. It also
granted doctors partnerships in company hospitals as a kickback for the
doctors’ referring patients to HCA. In addition, it gave doctors ‘loans’
that were never expected to be paid back, free rent, free office furniture —
and free drugs from hospital pharmacies."

This is the ethical climate that reigned in the Frist family’s money
machine. In an unguarded moment, Senator Frist told the Boston Globe that
conversations with his doctor father about the family calling were like
"benign versions of the Godfather and Michael Corleone." Apparently the
senator considers defrauding the government "benign." So too does the Bush
White House, which dictated the Justice Department deal with HCA that let
the crooks escape jail just as Frist was being anointed the Senate’s
majority leader. A pure coincidence in timing, of course.

The senator has always claimed no current connection to HCA because the $26
million he and his wife hold in the company’s stock is in a so-called "blind
trust." But it was the family’s dirty money that bought Frist a place in the
Senate. In 1994, Frist — who’d never bothered to vote before first running
for the Senate that year — spent some $3.4 million of his personal fortune
to buy the seat from Tennessee (HCA’s headquarters) that he now occupies.
Moreover, "In the Senate, Frist has used his influence to further HCA’s
cause by stopping a strong patients’ bill of rights, gridlocking a mandatory
Medicare prescription-drug benefit, and promoting caps on damages for
victims who sue negligent hospitals like HCA’s," points out Jamie Court,
executive director of the Santa Monica–based Foundation for Taxpayer and
Consumer Rights, who adds, "The Senate should not replace a racist with a
principal backer of one of the largest corporate swindles ever perpetrated
against the American public. If Frist was a patriot first, he would have
sold his HCA stock long ago."

But Frist’s pandering to the lobbyists of the voracious health-care industry
knows no bounds. "Frist isn’t the senator from Tennessee — he’s the senator
from the state of Health Care Industry Influence — he’s gotten more than $2
million from the health-care sector, giving him the dubious distinction of
raising more cash from health-care interests than 98 percent of his
colleagues," says Nick Nyhart, executive director of Public Campaign.

Consider the special servicing he gave to pharmaceutical giant Eli Lilly. In
another example of his "patriotism," Frist engineered the insertion into the
Homeland Security bill of a provision that would protect Eli Lilly from
lawsuits over Thimerosal, a mercury-based preservative used in its vaccines.
Thousands of lawsuits have been filed against Lilly by parents who believe
Thimerosal caused autism and other neurological maladies in their kids. The
Frist-authored rider shields Lilly by forcing those lawsuits into a special
"vaccine court," where they can be easily scuttled, potentially saving Lilly
hundreds of millions. The pharmaceutical industry was the largest single
contributor to the National Republican Senatorial Campaign Committee that
Frist chaired, ladling out some $4 million — and Lilly was the single
biggest contributor to the GOP from that industry, having given $1.6 million
in the last election cycle, 79 percent of it to Republicans.

The good Dr. Frist voted against patients’ rights to sue their HMOs for
failure to provide adequate treatment, and voted to give tax subsidies to
HMOs and insurance companies to offer prescription drugs to seniors, rather
than providing them through Medicare. Frist has, of course, personally raked
it in from the interested industries, gobbling up $123,750 in campaign cash
from the HMOs and $265,023 from the pharmaceutical industry. Frist also took
$130,204 from the food-processing industry — and then helped kill a bill
putting teeth into the USDA’s authority to crack down on processing plants
that violate federal standards for bacterial and viral infection of meat and
poultry.

There’s a lot more, like this — so much that it leads to an inescapable
conclusion: In the Senate, "Good Samaritan" Frist has almost daily violated
the injunction of the physicians’ Hippocratic oath: "First, do no harm."

http://www.laweekly.com/ink/03/08/news-ireland.php








~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Arnold went to Simon Wiesenthal to investigate his whole family when the issue first
came up. I thought I heard that Arnold has been a big contributor to the Simon
Wiesenthal center. he said: "I have fought against prejudice my whole life. I have
been part of the Simon Wiesenthal Center for 20 years because the Simon Wiesenthal
Center represents tolerance. I want to fight for tolerance. I want to fight against
prejudice all the time."

I mean perhaps his father was afraid and transmitted the fear to his son who being a
small child didnt know the source of the fear.
Ingrid

Ann wrote:

expounded:

I wonder if the fear was the produced by his father knowing he was a Nazi?

Try to remember that Arnold didn't think enough of his father to go to
his funeral. There was no love lost there. Arnold knows what his
father was.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

actually, knowing a fair number of Viet Nam vets I dont find it amusing at all what
they can or cannot remember during or after their tours of duty. It was a complete
horror that did unknown amounts of damage to their memory.

OTOH, I am not so compassionate about people who confabulate due to their "fun" drug
intake stateside while they avoided going to Viet Nam at all due to their parents
wealth or political pull.

BTW, this Sunday at my mother memorial I talked to an old friend of mine, a nurse who
also took care of my mother over the years. Her husband was exposed to agent orange
and every single one of her kids has fertility problems. the toll goes on.
Ingrid

Ann wrote:
So you must really crack up when Kerry spews on and on about hearing
about the death of Martin Luther King while he was in
Vietnam.....funny thing is he wasn't there until November, and MLK
died in April of that year..............



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

In article ,
wrote:
actually, knowing a fair number of Viet Nam vets I dont find it amusing at all what
they can or cannot remember during or after their tours of duty. It was a complete
horror that did unknown amounts of damage to their memory.


So now you are claiming that Kerry has post-traumatic stress disorder and
dementia?

billo

In article ,
Vox Humana wrote:


Why is it bashing to point out facts about Bush and why is it OK for
right-wingers to lie with impunity?


Well, if it's like the "facts" you've been trying to push about
Gov. Schwarzenegger, it pretty simple -- because you are lying
and sinking so low as to try to smear him with his family. And
you don't even care that you are lying.

billo

"Bill Oliver" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Vox Humana wrote:


Why is it bashing to point out facts about Bush and why is it OK for
right-wingers to lie with impunity?


Well, if it's like the "facts" you've been trying to push about
Gov. Schwarzenegger, it pretty simple -- because you are lying
and sinking so low as to try to smear him with his family. And
you don't even care that you are lying.

I was thinking how upset people like you get when, after Republicans talk
about "family values," someone posts hard facts about the Bush family like
Neil Bush's patronage of Asian hookers and history of venereal disease while
married, Jeb's wife getting fined for trying to smuggle goods into the
country without paying duty, Jeb's daughter who was caught writing
prescriptions for drugs and who was involved in a hit-and-run auto accident,
Jeb's son who broke into his girlfriend's house after being dumped, and his
other son who was caught having sex in a mall parking lot. I could go on,
but you get the idea. Now of course, you will get that faux indignity and
call it all a lie because you haven't heard any of this from Sean Hannity.

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 23:10:25 -0000, (Bill Oliver)
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
actually, knowing a fair number of Viet Nam vets I dont find it amusing at all what
they can or cannot remember during or after their tours of duty. It was a complete
horror that did unknown amounts of damage to their memory.


So now you are claiming that Kerry has post-traumatic stress disorder and
dementia?

billo

My only frustration with Kerry is that he just won't call you and
your ilk what you are.....pieces of shit! You wouldn't know the truth
it crawled out of a cadaver in front of you!


Tom Jaszewski

"Another sceptic, Franz Nitsch, said: 'Let me tell you this: as a boy, I
lived for many years across the street from where the Russians were based in
Vienna -- and I never saw a Russian tank. He said it all on purpose -- and
that’s bad.' "

An eyewitness acount of growing up in soviet occupied vienna many years
"pre-ahhnood"
http://timewitnesses.org/english/~ernest.html
The girl recalls Russian soldiers passing out candy and riding around on
bicycles - that's strange, no mention of scary tanks......

Again, a "scarier" mention of a border crossing in cold-war soviet occupied
Austria, but no mention of tanks in the town (Semmering) Ahnoodd now claims
(in the post-convention 'corrective' interview) to have been terriifed in...
http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/AD...williams2.html
We might also question whether the Schwarzenegger family had a special fear
of border crossings, since Ahnood's father was identified in many documents
as a Nazi and a brownshirt - both of which would have marked him for a
dificult time if his name appeared on any lists that the Soviets might have
had in their possession. It also makes one wonder WHY the uncle needed to
travel to Semmering and to bring a little boy there.....

The Allied Occupation (From the CIA handbook on Austria)
"In the meantime Austria had been divided into four zones of occupation
controlled, respectively, by the United States, France, Great Britain, and
the USSR. Vienna was similarly divided. By the terms of a June 1946
agreement, the Austrian government received qualified authority over the
entire country, including the right to legislate and to administer the laws.
The occupation powers retained authority on such matters as demilitarization
and the disposal of German-owned property. German economic assets in each
zone were assigned to the respective occupying power. Laws passed in 1946
and 1947 eliminated Nazi influence from public life, but former Nazis
without criminal records were allowed to participate in general elections in
1949."

This was not military occupation of the type that the Soviets used in
Hungary and the rest of Eastern Europe, since those nations, whether under
pressure or not, voted in Communist governments immediately after the war,
which gave the Soviets carte blanche to train guns and weapons on the
populace. To have done the same in Austria would have provoked an
international incident, since Austria voted in a CONSERVATIVE,
NON-COMMUNIST, NON-SOCIALIST government in 1946 - a government which had
sovereignty over ALL zones, including the Soviet zone..

Did the Soviets have tanks in the soviet-occupied zone of Austria?
Undoubtedly. Did they use them as primary transport on the streets, such
that ordinary citizens commonly saw them? Apparently not, from the few
eyewitness accounts available on the net.



"Bill Oliver" wrote in message As it stands,
Schwarzenegger said that *when he crossed
to the Soviet sector* he saw Soviet tanks. There were
40,000 Soviet troops there, and Soviet doctrine was
tank-heavy. Unless you believe in invisible soldiers,
you are ****ing in the wind.

In article , "gregpresley"
wrote:

"Another sceptic, Franz Nitsch, said: 'Let me tell you this: as a boy, I
lived for many years across the street from where the Russians were based in
Vienna -- and I never saw a Russian tank. He said it all on purpose -- and
that’s bad.' "

An eyewitness acount of growing up in soviet occupied vienna many years
"pre-ahhnood"
http://timewitnesses.org/english/~ernest.html
The girl recalls Russian soldiers passing out candy and riding around on
bicycles - that's strange, no mention of scary tanks......

Again, a "scarier" mention of a border crossing in cold-war soviet occupied
Austria, but no mention of tanks in the town (Semmering) Ahnoodd now claims
(in the post-convention 'corrective' interview) to have been terriifed in...
http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/AD...williams2.html
We might also question whether the Schwarzenegger family had a special fear
of border crossings, since Ahnood's father was identified in many documents
as a Nazi and a brownshirt - both of which would have marked him for a
dificult time if his name appeared on any lists that the Soviets might have
had in their possession. It also makes one wonder WHY the uncle needed to
travel to Semmering and to bring a little boy there.....

The Allied Occupation (From the CIA handbook on Austria)
"In the meantime Austria had been divided into four zones of occupation
controlled, respectively, by the United States, France, Great Britain, and
the USSR. Vienna was similarly divided. By the terms of a June 1946
agreement, the Austrian government received qualified authority over the
entire country, including the right to legislate and to administer the laws.
The occupation powers retained authority on such matters as demilitarization
and the disposal of German-owned property. German economic assets in each
zone were assigned to the respective occupying power. Laws passed in 1946
and 1947 eliminated Nazi influence from public life, but former Nazis
without criminal records were allowed to participate in general elections in
1949."

This was not military occupation of the type that the Soviets used in
Hungary and the rest of Eastern Europe, since those nations, whether under
pressure or not, voted in Communist governments immediately after the war,
which gave the Soviets carte blanche to train guns and weapons on the
populace. To have done the same in Austria would have provoked an
international incident, since Austria voted in a CONSERVATIVE,
NON-COMMUNIST, NON-SOCIALIST government in 1946 - a government which had
sovereignty over ALL zones, including the Soviet zone..

Did the Soviets have tanks in the soviet-occupied zone of Austria?
Undoubtedly. Did they use them as primary transport on the streets, such
that ordinary citizens commonly saw them? Apparently not, from the few
eyewitness accounts available on the net.

Arnold did not even grow up in the Soviet-occupied part of Austria. He
spent his childhood years in post-war Styria which was occupied by Brits &
Americans. Arnold NEVER lived under communism, with or without tanks. Nor
did he grow up "poor" as he described himself in the same inaugural
speech; a nazi commandant during the war, daddy Gustav held a similar
position after the war, equivalent to what we would call Chief of Police.
There was a great deal of poverty in Styria at that time, but Arnold was
comparatively middle class & never wanted for anything. His claim that his
family never owned a car was the truth only insofar as the car they used
was a perk of Gustav's job chief-of-police job & not their private
property.

So Arnold's claim to have been a "poor immigrant" though he arrived here
already well-off & well-known as Mr Universe, who grew up under the
oppression of communism & saw "soviet tanks in the street" always afraid
the communist soldiers would ship him to Russia "as slave labor" when his
part of Austria was in reality on the western side of the Iron Curtain, it
all just goes to show: An incapacity for honesty appears to be one more
thing (besides nazi-supporting family members) that Arnold & Georgy have
in common.

During his inaugural speech, Arnold fabricated endlessly: "I was a little
boy, I wasn't an action hero back then, and I remember how scared I was
that the soldiers would pull my father or my uncle out of the car and I'd
never see him again. My family and so many others lived in fear of the
Soviet boot." These aren't just little slip-ups of memory or minor
readjustments of truth for politicking's sake, but wild inventions so
divorced from the truth that EVERY thing he says becomes suspect.

He paid the Simon Weisenthal Center $750,000 dollars plus raised a couple
million more from friends when he found out they were investigating Gustav
for war crimes. After Arnold became a donor, the Center stopped
investigating & said they found nothing against Arnold's dad. As a
high-ranking soldier in the Nazi party, Gustav's hands could not possibly
have been as clean as that. Indeed, since the Weisenthal Center was bought
off, their press-release that asserted Gustav wasn't a member of the
Sturmabteilungen (Stormtroopers) has been proven incorrect; he was in fact
a Stormtrooper. Ursula Schwarz of the Documentation Archive of Austrian
Resistance has said there is too little recorded information about
Gustav's career as a stormtrooper to know what specific acts he personally
committed, but that his unit was involved in atrocities IS well
documented.

Austrian war criminals were exempted from the Nuremberg trials, on the
basis of which Austrian stormtroopers were issued papers stating they did
not participate in the war crimes, thus permitting Gustav to be given
employment as a police chief. During the American & British occupation of
Styra, suddenly-ex-nazis still ran the government infrastructure, & such
cushy jobs as Police Chief were handed out to their pals. Now Arnold
claims never to have asked his father what exactly he did in the war -- it
just wasn't done by the children of nazis, as they wouldn't want to live
with the answer.

So the Weisenthal whitewash of Gustav was merely bought & paid for by
Arnold, the pathological liar who claims to have grown up surrounded by
frightening soviet tanks, a little boy fearful of enslavement. His old
habit of goose-stepping around Jewish bodybuilders, praising Hitler as a
great public speaker who lifted himself from poverty, making fag-jokes,
grabbing young women's pussies, & befriending unrepentant nazis like
Waldheim, all make Arnold choice material for the Republican Party's idea
of a Moderate -- Moderate because none of that's quite enough to make him
as bug-ass crazy as Republican leadership prefers.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

"paghat" wrote in message
news
In article , "gregpresley"
wrote:

"Another sceptic, Franz Nitsch, said: 'Let me tell you this: as a boy, I
lived for many years across the street from where the Russians were
based in
Vienna -- and I never saw a Russian tank. He said it all on purpose --
and
that’s bad.' "

An eyewitness acount of growing up in soviet occupied vienna many years
"pre-ahhnood"
http://timewitnesses.org/english/~ernest.html
The girl recalls Russian soldiers passing out candy and riding around on
bicycles - that's strange, no mention of scary tanks......

Again, a "scarier" mention of a border crossing in cold-war soviet
occupied
Austria, but no mention of tanks in the town (Semmering) Ahnoodd now
claims
(in the post-convention 'corrective' interview) to have been terriifed
in...
http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/AD...williams2.html
We might also question whether the Schwarzenegger family had a special
fear
of border crossings, since Ahnood's father was identified in many
documents
as a Nazi and a brownshirt - both of which would have marked him for a
dificult time if his name appeared on any lists that the Soviets might
have
had in their possession. It also makes one wonder WHY the uncle needed
to
travel to Semmering and to bring a little boy there.....

The Allied Occupation (From the CIA handbook on Austria)
"In the meantime Austria had been divided into four zones of occupation
controlled, respectively, by the United States, France, Great Britain,
and
the USSR. Vienna was similarly divided. By the terms of a June 1946
agreement, the Austrian government received qualified authority over the
entire country, including the right to legislate and to administer the
laws.
The occupation powers retained authority on such matters as
demilitarization
and the disposal of German-owned property. German economic assets in
each
zone were assigned to the respective occupying power. Laws passed in
1946
and 1947 eliminated Nazi influence from public life, but former Nazis
without criminal records were allowed to participate in general
elections in
1949."

This was not military occupation of the type that the Soviets used in
Hungary and the rest of Eastern Europe, since those nations, whether
under
pressure or not, voted in Communist governments immediately after the
war,
which gave the Soviets carte blanche to train guns and weapons on the
populace. To have done the same in Austria would have provoked an
international incident, since Austria voted in a CONSERVATIVE,
NON-COMMUNIST, NON-SOCIALIST government in 1946 - a government which had
sovereignty over ALL zones, including the Soviet zone..

Did the Soviets have tanks in the soviet-occupied zone of Austria?
Undoubtedly. Did they use them as primary transport on the streets,
such
that ordinary citizens commonly saw them? Apparently not, from the few
eyewitness accounts available on the net.

Arnold did not even grow up in the Soviet-occupied part of Austria. He
spent his childhood years in post-war Styria which was occupied by Brits &
Americans. Arnold NEVER lived under communism, with or without tanks. Nor
did he grow up "poor" as he described himself in the same inaugural
speech; a nazi commandant during the war, daddy Gustav held a similar
position after the war, equivalent to what we would call Chief of Police.
There was a great deal of poverty in Styria at that time, but Arnold was
comparatively middle class & never wanted for anything. His claim that his
family never owned a car was the truth only insofar as the car they used
was a perk of Gustav's job chief-of-police job & not their private
property.

So Arnold's claim to have been a "poor immigrant" though he arrived here
already well-off & well-known as Mr Universe, who grew up under the
oppression of communism & saw "soviet tanks in the street" always afraid
the communist soldiers would ship him to Russia "as slave labor" when his
part of Austria was in reality on the western side of the Iron Curtain, it
all just goes to show: An incapacity for honesty appears to be one more
thing (besides nazi-supporting family members) that Arnold & Georgy have
in common.

During his inaugural speech, Arnold fabricated endlessly: "I was a little
boy, I wasn't an action hero back then, and I remember how scared I was
that the soldiers would pull my father or my uncle out of the car and I'd
never see him again. My family and so many others lived in fear of the
Soviet boot." These aren't just little slip-ups of memory or minor
readjustments of truth for politicking's sake, but wild inventions so
divorced from the truth that EVERY thing he says becomes suspect.

He paid the Simon Weisenthal Center $750,000 dollars plus raised a couple
million more from friends when he found out they were investigating Gustav
for war crimes. After Arnold became a donor, the Center stopped
investigating & said they found nothing against Arnold's dad. As a
high-ranking soldier in the Nazi party, Gustav's hands could not possibly
have been as clean as that. Indeed, since the Weisenthal Center was bought
off, their press-release that asserted Gustav wasn't a member of the
Sturmabteilungen (Stormtroopers) has been proven incorrect; he was in fact
a Stormtrooper. Ursula Schwarz of the Documentation Archive of Austrian
Resistance has said there is too little recorded information about
Gustav's career as a stormtrooper to know what specific acts he personally
committed, but that his unit was involved in atrocities IS well
documented.

Austrian war criminals were exempted from the Nuremberg trials, on the
basis of which Austrian stormtroopers were issued papers stating they did
not participate in the war crimes, thus permitting Gustav to be given
employment as a police chief. During the American & British occupation of
Styra, suddenly-ex-nazis still ran the government infrastructure, & such
cushy jobs as Police Chief were handed out to their pals. Now Arnold
claims never to have asked his father what exactly he did in the war -- it
just wasn't done by the children of nazis, as they wouldn't want to live
with the answer.

So the Weisenthal whitewash of Gustav was merely bought & paid for by
Arnold, the pathological liar who claims to have grown up surrounded by
frightening soviet tanks, a little boy fearful of enslavement. His old
habit of goose-stepping around Jewish bodybuilders, praising Hitler as a
great public speaker who lifted himself from poverty, making fag-jokes,
grabbing young women's pussies, & befriending unrepentant nazis like
Waldheim, all make Arnold choice material for the Republican Party's idea
of a Moderate -- Moderate because none of that's quite enough to make him
as bug-ass crazy as Republican leadership prefers.


You would think that a person with such an outstanding memory who could
recall vivid memories from his toddler years would remember his meeting with
Ken Lay that set the stage for the California energy crisis and the recall
of Gov. Davis.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

NEWS RELEASE
Oct 03, 2003

Enron E-mails Confirm Schwarzenegger-Ken Lay Meeting
Enron E-Mails Show Arnold Met With Ken Lay During Energy Crisis
Santa Monica, CA -- Internal Enron e-mails confirm that Arnold
Schwarzenegger was among a small group of executives who met with Lay at the
posh Peninsula Beverly Hills hotel in May of 2001, in the midst of
California's energy crisis. View the e-mails. The Foundation for Taxpayer
and Consumer Rights, which obtained the e-mails, is calling on
Schwarzenegger to acknowledge the meetings and disclose the information that
was presented and discussed. The meeting with Enron occurred ten days after
rolling blackouts darkened California for two consecutive days;
Schwarzenegger has previously said that he does not remember such a meeting.

"You don't meet with America's most well-known corporate crook in the middle
of California's biggest financial disaster and not remember," said FTCR's
senior consumer advocate Douglas Heller. "Mr. Schwarzenegger should come
clean about what happened at that meeting and if he shares Ken Lay's views
on energy regulation."

The documents provide a list of invitees to the hastily arranged meeting and
a list of those who actually attended. Only eleven of the 45 invitees
attended, including Schwarzenegger. The meeting was meant to be an
opportunity to gain business community support for Enron's "comprehensive
solution" to the energy crisis. In one e-mail, Enron's VP of Public
Relations wrote: "We'd like to position this meeting as an insider's
conversation of what's going on with the energy situation. This meeting
should be for principals only." (emphasis in original)

FTCR contends that Enron policies were responsible for the severe energy
crisis California faced in 2000 and 2001. The group noted that the crisis
had dramatic implications on the state economy and state budget and will
continue to impact consumers for years to come. FTCR has called for a repeal
of the deregulation and supported SB 888 (Dunn) to re-regulate the state's
electricity system. FTCR has been critical of Enron's involvement in the
California energy crisis, in which the company developed schemes for
manipulating the power market that forced massive price spikes in the state.

"Since it was apparently important enough for Schwarzenegger to attend
despite the last minute notice, Schwarzenegger should now explain what
happened at his meeting with Enron's Ken Lay and whether or not he supports
electricity re-regulation," said Heller.
http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/util.../pr003708.php3

In article ,
gregpresley wrote:
"Another sceptic, Franz Nitsch, said: 'Let me tell you this: as a boy, I

Did the Soviets have tanks in the soviet-occupied zone of Austria?
Undoubtedly. Did they use them as primary transport on the streets, such
that ordinary citizens commonly saw them? Apparently not, from the few
eyewitness accounts available on the net.



I love this

"Schwarzenegger lied!!! There were no tanks in his home town. He's a
lying right-wing fanatic, and this is the proof!!!"

"That's not what he said."

"Oh. Well. Schwarzenegger lied!!!! The Soviets left Austria in 1945!!!"
He's a lying right-wing fanatic, and this is the proof!!!"

"No, they left in 1955. There were 40,000 troops in Austria
in 1955."

"Oh. Well. Schwarzenegger lied!!!! The Soviets didn't use tanks!!!!"
He's a lying right-wing fanatic, and this is the proof!!!"

"It was doctrine that they did. If there were 40,000 Soviet
troops, then there were tanks."

"Oh. Well. Schwarzenegger lied!!!! There's a guy from UNC who wrote a
one-page memoir of a visit, and *he* didn't mention a tank. They must
have been hiding the tanks so *nobody* could see them. Ever!!! He's a
lying right-wing fanatic, and here's the proof!!!"

Get a grip. You're beginning to sound as stupid as Kerry.

Oh, and if you look at that CONSERVATIVE Austrian government,
it fits exactly the statements Schwarzenegger made. By American
standards, Christian Socialists and their ilk, including the
Austrian government at the time fit the Socialist definition
well -- state-owned media, state-owned industry, etc.

You Dems are merely sounding strident and silly at this point.

billo

Bill Oliver wrote:
I love this

"Schwarzenegger lied!!! There were no tanks in his home town. He's a
lying right-wing fanatic, and this is the proof!!!"

"That's not what he said."

"Oh. Well. Schwarzenegger lied!!!! The Soviets left Austria in
1945!!!"
He's a lying right-wing fanatic, and this is the proof!!!"

"No, they left in 1955. There were 40,000 troops in Austria
in 1955."

"Oh. Well. Schwarzenegger lied!!!! The Soviets didn't use tanks!!!!"
He's a lying right-wing fanatic, and this is the proof!!!"

"It was doctrine that they did. If there were 40,000 Soviet
troops, then there were tanks."

"Oh. Well. Schwarzenegger lied!!!! There's a guy from UNC who wrote a
one-page memoir of a visit, and *he* didn't mention a tank. They must
have been hiding the tanks so *nobody* could see them. Ever!!! He's
a
lying right-wing fanatic, and here's the proof!!!"

Get a grip. You're beginning to sound as stupid as Kerry.

Oh, and if you look at that CONSERVATIVE Austrian government,
it fits exactly the statements Schwarzenegger made. By American
standards, Christian Socialists and their ilk, including the
Austrian government at the time fit the Socialist definition
well -- state-owned media, state-owned industry, etc.

You Dems are merely sounding strident and silly at this point.


I think you need to get a grip. Doctrine that there were tanks? Talk
about reaching.

The man was telling a story. He was using hyperbole. Literary license.
It wasn't meant to be an historical account. It was meant to illustrate
a point. Details were left out to make it short enough for the typical
Republican's attention span, and to simplify it enough for Republicans
to understand.

It wasn't a lie. It was just a story.

Now did it really have that affect on him at the time? Who knows. Things
he said early in his career would tend to suggest that he has
reinterpreted his feelings at the time. If that's true, he's just lying
to himself. Or he could have been making stuff up, creating a different
persona when he was an actor. That's what actors do.

Anyone who is trying to take his speech at the RNC as an historical
account of Austria in the '50s one way or the other needs to get a grip.
Or perhaps a liberal arts education so they can start to better
understand literary license, such as hyperbole.

Personally I believe that the early Arnold was just saying whatever he
thought would get a rise out of people. I don't believe he had one bit
of interest in politics until recently, and he's relating his memories
through the filter of his new-found political position. Does that make
it lying? Heck no. It just means he's still a boasting SOB who enjoys
getting a rise out of people. It's who he is. He's not a liar. He just
likes being in the spotlight.

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Blatant Plug: Cooking with Intense Heat
http://www.holzemville.com/community...eat/index.html

In article ixM%c.160007$mD.94478@attbi_s02,
Warren wrote:


I think you need to get a grip. Doctrine that there were tanks? Talk
about reaching.


Yes. Soviet military doctrine was tank heavy. It's not reaching, its
basic military history.

From Soviet Military Doctrine by William Odom, Foreign Affairs,
Winter 1988/89:

Soviet ground forces are composed of more than two hundred
divisions, all mechanized, and organized under army, front and high
commands in at least five theaters of military operations. They
possess more than 53,000 main battle tanks, 48,000 tubes of
artillery, mortars and multiple-rocket launchers, 4,600
surface-to-air missiles and 4,500 helicopters.


You see the "all mechanized" part? That means tanks and armored
personnel carriers and the like. It means that if there
were any troops at all, there were tanks around. And with 40,000
troops, doctrine would have dictated *lots* of tanks. That has pretty
much always been Soviet doctrine since WWII. Soviet doctrine was
very similar to that of the Nazis -- focusing on mobility and surprise,
for which the tank was the main and indispensible tool, barely
giving way to the strategic rocket forces and the use of the helicopter
as an artillery platform. The emphasis on tanks by Saddam in the
first Gulf War was because he used Soviet doctrine. This shift
toward tanks started in the 30s and continued through the 60s.

As noted by Fionn Kelly at
http://www.combatmission.com/article.../sov_part1.asp

At the beginning of August 1931, the government endorsed a plan for
the build-up of the RKKA over the period 1931-1933. Simultaneously,
on August 1, 1931, the Council for Labour and Defence accepted the
so-called "Great Tank Programme". This arose from the fact that
"technical achievements in the field of tank construction in the
USSR create a sound basis for radical alterations to the universal
operative-tactical doctrines in the employment of tanks and
necessitate decisive organizational changes to the armoured-tank
troops in respect of the creation of superior mechanised formations,
capable as much of solving tasks on the battlefield as also in the
entire operative depth of a modern combat front. The new
high-mobility material of the units provide the basis for
elaborating the theories of battles and operations in depth" (M. N.
Tukhachevsky).

As noted by Jonathan R. Adelman in The EVOLUTION OF SOVIET MILITARY
DOCTRINE, 1945-84


... Airborne, tank, and
motorized forces gained prominence at the expense of the infantry.
The Strategic Rocket Forces replaced the ground forces as the
dominant armed service by the early 1960s. Major General V. G.
Reznichenko and Colonel A. Sidorenko clarified the changing nature
of warfare during this period when they declared:

There will also be a different way of breaking through the
enemy's defense. The method used will no longer be that of
"gnawing through" as was the case in past wars. The defense
will be dealt nuclear strikes and will then be attacked from
the line of march, at high tempo, by tanks and mechanized
troops. The use of nuclear weapons will create favorable
conditions for the rapid advance of troops. They should be able
to utilize quickly the results of nuclear weapons, penetrate
boldly through breaches in the enemy's combat formations, avoid
both frontal attack on strong points and straight line
movements, carry out flexible maneuvers, and deal decisive
blows to the enemy's flank and rear.


Reaching? Hardly.

You could make the claim that instead of a main battle tank,
Schwarzenneger saw an armored personnel carrier -- which would be a
reasonable mistake for a child to make -- but that would not carry
water for the politics of personal destruction of which you Dems are so
fond.

billo

In article ,
paghat wrote:

[attempted Nazi smear deleted]

Leave it to the Kerry camp. When the attempted lies
that tanks weren't there, were invisible, or were
cleverly disguised as ice cream cones falls flat,
they fall back on the standard racist trick of
labelling anybody with a German accent a Nazi.

You are not doing your candidate any good, though
you are showing us what we could expect with
a Kerry victory.

billo

In article , (Bill
Oliver) wrote:

In article ,
paghat wrote:

[attempted Nazi smear deleted]

Leave it to the Kerry camp. When the attempted lies
that tanks weren't there, were invisible, or were
cleverly disguised as ice cream cones falls flat,
they fall back on the standard racist trick of
labelling anybody with a German accent a Nazi.

Sadly for you I gave a merely a factual accounting without even teency
rearrangement or exaggeration, as unlike you I HAVE done a great deal of
historical research on Austria (mainly because of my interest in the
Jewish authors who were killed or had to flee -- Vienna in particular was
a great place before the Jews were killed or run out).

You on the other hand don't know squat about anything BUT squat, & when
you call a FACTUAL account of nazism & its lingering influence & the
FACTUAL friendships preserved by the likes of Arnold for nazi war
criminals, you show you, as always, care nothing for history, truth, or
human decency. To call nazis nazis, & antisemnites antisemites, is by no
means racist; to embrace them as friends does reflect on the man who
embraces them. For you to charge honest people with racism for daring to
point out factually incontrovertible stuff about Austria's ongoing
antisemitic tendencies which Arnold echoes on a regular basis, well, you
show yourself beneath even slime-mold.

Arnold is BEST FRIENDS with one of Austria's leading politicians & proven
war criminals who escaped punishment exclusively because Austria was
exempted from the Nuremberg trials. Arnold calls the Austria of his youth
Socialist when in fact it was run by Conservatives -- the only "socialist"
moment was the decade of "the Jew" as chancellor, which pro-nazi Austrians
to this day demeans in exactly the words Arnold demeaned it.

These are merely facts. That Republicans embrace this as of no consequence
shows how sinkingly, unhumanly far to the right "average" Republicans have
gone.

You are not doing your candidate any good, though
you are showing us what we could expect with
a Kerry victory.

By the by, I'm not in the Kerry camp, or if I am, it is with high
reluctance, & my commentaries against some of his antics are posted
publicly in the oppropriate forums. With a stinking turd like Bush in the
offing, I'd vote for a dog's pecker in a straw hat to get rid of such
relentless evil, so the default vote is for Kerry because there is no
better choice with any chance of a humanly decent outcome. But it rankles;
he's so tepid in his semi-support for gay equality, just one reason I
cannot regard him as anything but the least awful choice provided. So
really I'm only interested in the FACTS, alien though those always sound
to you who have none; & not all of the facts put Kerry in a favorable
light -- except that even at his waffling wishywashy worst, a dog's pecker
in a straw hat is STILL superior to a dog turd like King George II.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com