I have horrible neighbors, and a fence that's only three feet high.

We need a fence that will block them out _completely_, and stockade type
fences are extremely expensive.

I have considered hedges, but the only bad thing is that they take awhile to
grow high enough.

I had an idea to make a "vine fence". I thought I would buy some wire ( like
chicken wire, but thicker and sturdier) about 6 feet high, and put it down
the length of the yard using posts or stakes.

I have a good variety of climbing vine seeds, including mandevilla, several
varieties of morning glory ( red, black, purple, yellow, white) trumpet
creeper vines, and hyacinth bean vines. I planned on buying maybe five or
six climbing roses when it gets warm enough out. I live in PA, so we can't
plant much here usually until May.

Has anyone else ever tried to make this sort of fence? Did you have good
results? I was also wondering what experiences you've had with climbing
vines, such as varieties that grow quickly, etc.

Any input appreciated greatly.

I have horrible neighbors, and a fence that's only three feet high.

We need a fence that will block them out _completely_, and stockade type
fences are extremely expensive.

I have considered hedges, but the only bad thing is that they take awhile to
grow high enough.

I had an idea to make a "vine fence". I thought I would buy some wire ( like
chicken wire, but thicker and sturdier) about 6 feet high, and put it down
the length of the yard using posts or stakes.

I have a good variety of climbing vine seeds, including mandevilla, several
varieties of morning glory ( red, black, purple, yellow, white) trumpet
creeper vines, and hyacinth bean vines. I planned on buying maybe five or
six climbing roses when it gets warm enough out. I live in PA, so we can't
plant much here usually until May.

Has anyone else ever tried to make this sort of fence? Did you have good
results? I was also wondering what experiences you've had with climbing
vines, such as varieties that grow quickly, etc.

Any input appreciated greatly.


I like my neighbor, but she didn't like the guy who lived in my house before,
so she put up a tall fence in the back and a bunch of climbing roses or
whatever these are called in the front separating our houses. My front walk
borders these roses, and they grow like weeds and infringe on my walk - hard to
keep up with! I have to trim them from my side several times a year and get
pricked by the thorns. Also, they are coming up on my property. I snip them
back but they keep on coming. I have cut some for bouquets, but the flowers
are tiny and only last a day. If you REALLY hate your neighbor, this is what
to plant.

I have horrible neighbors, and a fence that's only three feet high. We
need a fence that will block them out _completely_, and stockade type fences
are extremely expensive.
I had an idea to make a "vine fence". I thought I would buy some wire (like
chicken wire, but thicker and sturdier) about 6 feet high, and put it down the
length of the yard using posts or stakes.
I live in PA,

This idea is widely recommended in the gardening literature. However, I would
only rely on annual vines for the first year. You want to plant perennials for
the long run. I don't know what zone you are in, but something evergreen would
be ideal. Avoid trumpet creeper, English ivy, or anything else that is
uncontrollably invasive. Patience with a vine that is a little slower growing
will pay off in the end. I wouldn't use climbing roses for that. They are a lot
of work, and not useful for your purpose for much of the year. Call your local
extension office. They can probably give you a list of the best vines for your
area. One that comes to mind is Dutchman's pipe, Aristolochia. It is widely
recommended as a screening vine in the Northeast.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"A tree never hits an automobile except in self defense." - Woody Allen

"Skirmishd" wrote in message
...
I have horrible neighbors, and a fence that's only three feet high.

We need a fence that will block them out _completely_, and stockade type
fences are extremely expensive.

I have considered hedges, but the only bad thing is that they take awhile
to
grow high enough.

I had an idea to make a "vine fence". I thought I would buy some wire (
like
chicken wire, but thicker and sturdier) about 6 feet high, and put it
down
the length of the yard using posts or stakes.

I have a good variety of climbing vine seeds, including mandevilla,
several
varieties of morning glory ( red, black, purple, yellow, white) trumpet
creeper vines, and hyacinth bean vines. I planned on buying maybe five or
six climbing roses when it gets warm enough out. I live in PA, so we
can't
plant much here usually until May.

Has anyone else ever tried to make this sort of fence? Did you have good
results? I was also wondering what experiences you've had with climbing
vines, such as varieties that grow quickly, etc.

Any input appreciated greatly.


I like my neighbor, but she didn't like the guy who lived in my house
before,
so she put up a tall fence in the back and a bunch of climbing roses or
whatever these are called in the front separating our houses. My front
walk
borders these roses, and they grow like weeds and infringe on my walk -
hard to
keep up with! I have to trim them from my side several times a year and
get
pricked by the thorns. Also, they are coming up on my property. I snip
them
back but they keep on coming. I have cut some for bouquets, but the
flowers
are tiny and only last a day. If you REALLY hate your neighbor, this is
what
to plant.

LOL! Well, that stinks. Maybe I'll stick to rose bushes instead, that don't
creep every which way.

"Iris Cohen" wrote in message
...
I have horrible neighbors, and a fence that's only three feet high.
We
need a fence that will block them out _completely_, and stockade type
fences
are extremely expensive.
I had an idea to make a "vine fence". I thought I would buy some wire
(like
chicken wire, but thicker and sturdier) about 6 feet high, and put it down
the
length of the yard using posts or stakes.
I live in PA,

This idea is widely recommended in the gardening literature. However, I
would
only rely on annual vines for the first year. You want to plant perennials
for
the long run. I don't know what zone you are in, but something evergreen
would
be ideal.

I was kind of thinking this. If I use the thick wire fencing, I can always
take it down very easily later on, if I have to.


Avoid trumpet creeper, English ivy, or anything else that is
uncontrollably invasive. Patience with a vine that is a little slower
growing
will pay off in the end.

Ok, perhaps I'll plant the trumpet creeper somewhere else then. Maybe on the
side of the garage or something.


I wouldn't use climbing roses for that. They are a lot
of work, and not useful for your purpose for much of the year. Call your
local
extension office. They can probably give you a list of the best vines for
your
area. One that comes to mind is Dutchman's pipe, Aristolochia. It is
widely
recommended as a screening vine in the Northeast.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"A tree never hits an automobile except in self defense." - Woody Allen

Thanbk you very much for the recommendation. I'll look for some seeds for
that.

I had a neighbor once that made this sort of fence, with trumpet vines, and
the ivy you described. Even in winter, the dead vines stayed in the fencing,
and still offered a little bit of a screen- but also, the vines were quite
haywire, growing all over the place. I enjoyed them though from my side of
the yard- the trumpet vines brought hummingbirds, so I was happy with that.

"escape" wrote in message
...
All the mentioned varieties you list are not evergreen. Chicken wire is
much
too weak, as would be anything else in rolls. Now, if you buy
reinforcement
mesh, which looks a lot like chicken wire, but thicker, it may give you
the
sturdiness you need, but even with that it will only really stay strong
for two
feet above any lower support. I say get a homeowners loan and be done
with it
by putting up a fence you can't see through and slowly over time plant
evergreen
shrubs in front of it on your side.

Heh, I was hoping the neighbors would move away before it came to that.

I do plan on looking into evergreens, maybe in a year or two. The wire thing
can be taken down really easily (hopefully) so I was hoping for a real
quick remedy for this spring and summer. I feel desperate to try anything
that will work, because I just can't forsee another summer dealing with the
neighbors like we had to last year.

In article ,
says...
LOL! Well, that stinks. Maybe I'll stick to rose bushes instead, that don't
creep every which way.

Russian olive make a nice thorny impenetratable hedge if you keep it
pruned to 6-8' or so. Still deciduous, but thicker in winter than rose
bushes.

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

Aunty Kreist wrote:
I have horrible neighbors, and a fence that's only three feet high.

We need a fence that will block them out _completely_, and stockade type
fences are extremely expensive.

I have considered hedges, but the only bad thing is that they take awhile to
grow high enough.

I had an idea to make a "vine fence". I thought I would buy some wire ( like
chicken wire, but thicker and sturdier) about 6 feet high, and put it down
the length of the yard using posts or stakes.

I have a good variety of climbing vine seeds, including mandevilla, several
varieties of morning glory ( red, black, purple, yellow, white) trumpet
creeper vines, and hyacinth bean vines. I planned on buying maybe five or
six climbing roses when it gets warm enough out. I live in PA, so we can't
plant much here usually until May.

Has anyone else ever tried to make this sort of fence? Did you have good
results? I was also wondering what experiences you've had with climbing
vines, such as varieties that grow quickly, etc.

Any input appreciated greatly.



Don't use chicken wire, use "cattle panels". They are 16 feet long, 54"
high (IIRC), and they are strong enough to just support them with a post
at the ends. And they really don't look that bad (not that it matters
much when you get them covered with vines.) HTH :-)

Bob

escape wrote:

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:50:41 -0600, zxcvbob opined:



Don't use chicken wire, use "cattle panels". They are 16 feet long, 54"
high (IIRC), and they are strong enough to just support them with a post
at the ends. And they really don't look that bad (not that it matters
much when you get them covered with vines.) HTH :-)

Bob


They are as expensive as buying a normal wood fence, I find. I wish I could get
cattle panels cheap. Around here, they are almost 70 dollars each.



SEVENTY????? Here they are about $15 (last time I bought one was a few
years ago so they could be pushing $20 by now, but I doubt it) I've
paid as low as $13 for them.

Best regards,
Bob

I'd trim it.......

escape wrote:
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 16:02:10 -0600, zxcvbob opined:



SEVENTY????? Here they are about $15 (last time I bought one was a few
years ago so they could be pushing $20 by now, but I doubt it) I've
paid as low as $13 for them.

Best regards,
Bob


What gauge are the ones you are seeing for that price? Maybe I'm looking at a
very heavy gauge. The ones I'm seeing here are virtually bend proof and very
sturdy. They also weigh a ton and are made of steel. You know, Texas,
everything must be bigger. LOL




I *think* it is 1/4" galvanized wire, but it might be 4 gauge. They are
very heavy and unwieldy. I don't like carrying them in my pickup
because I can only haul 1 or 2 and I have to go over the cab with them.
(A person with any sense would borrow or rent a trailer.)

Bob

"escape" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 19:26:40 -0500, "Aunty Kreist"
opined:


Heh, I was hoping the neighbors would move away before it came to that.


I do plan on looking into evergreens, maybe in a year or two. The wire
thing
can be taken down really easily (hopefully) so I was hoping for a real
quick remedy for this spring and summer. I feel desperate to try anything
that will work, because I just can't forsee another summer dealing with
the
neighbors like we had to last year.


I completely understand. I planted a wall of oleander, but this is Texas
where
it's hardy. I also put other evergreens in those beds where there is no
fence.
Now he complains that his security camera cannot get a clear shot all the
way to
the corner! His security cameras! LOL. He says he sees burglers
nightly, and
strange people walking the neighborhood on the tape when he checks in the
morning. He also told me he saw a wolf and a bobcat and fox and coyote IN
my
backyard. How's that for a kook? I truly do understand and I know how
you
feel.

Ya know what, putting up those evergreens was probably the smartest thing
you could have done! If he's monitoring your yard with that kind of
paranoia, chances are he's watching you frequently, and trying to see
through windows. You may even want to consider buying those stained glass
colored window decals on windows facing his house ( they sell them at home
depot). They make the room look pretty, and deter anyone from seeing in.

Heh. My neighbor will stand on his side of the yard, directly by any open
window we have, and scream our names repeatedly until we answer. We've
actually had to duck while walking by the windows.



The only reason I'm trying to deter you is because this wire you want to
plant on is not going to stand up and after it's full of a vine will flop
over
from the weight. I suppose if you support it every 4 feet with a post, it
may
be okay. Try planting annual vines on it, like morning glories or
something
which doesn't get woody. Maybe it won't be pulled down as easily.

Good luck,
Victoria

I've been pondering all the great advice everyone here has given, and I've
decided to follow it. We decided what the heck, we're going to take down the
existing 3 ft. high chain link fence, and replace it with a 6 ft. Then,
we're going to buy those vinyl strips for weaving through the fence. It'll
create a solid wall, and it'll be sturdy enough for me to grow climbing
things on my side, without too much growing off into the neighbor's yard.

Thank you!

"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...
LOL! Well, that stinks. Maybe I'll stick to rose bushes instead, that
don't
creep every which way.

Russian olive make a nice thorny impenetratable hedge if you keep it
pruned to 6-8' or so. Still deciduous, but thicker in winter than rose
bushes.

I just looked that up, and that is a very lovely hedge. I think I have a
nice spot for something like that.

Thank you, and everyone else for the great advice. I have to say, this is
one of the most articulate and knowledgeable groups I've had the fortune to
stumble upon.



--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

"Aunty Kreist" wrote in message
...

Ya know what, putting up those evergreens was probably the smartest thing
you could have done! If he's monitoring your yard with that kind of
paranoia, chances are he's watching you frequently, and trying to see
through windows. You may even want to consider buying those stained glass
colored window decals on windows facing his house ( they sell them at home
depot). They make the room look pretty, and deter anyone from seeing in.



LOL well in MY case, even when I lived in the city with a house that was
only eight foot away from my kitchen windows, and across the driveway on the
opposite side of the house near my BEDROOM window (12 feet) I loved open
windows as much as I do here in the middle of pastures and hillsides and
woods on this ridge, and that means I have so many plants and hangies in my
window's, I don't NEED stained glass decals. I have the real things. I have
suction cup hangers with all sorts and manner of horticultural themed
stained glass to capture the sun's rays and to block the visibility inside,
and plants soaking up the winter lights. I can look around them just fine.
On my nook window alone I have glass ladybugs, bumble bee, hummingbird, four
kinds and colors of butterflies, a morning glory, blue magnolia blossom with
red center, glass prism/mother of pearl marble hangie that reflects light
rays, a prism that only works at a specific time of the day and an old
fashioned glass ball with many facets to reflect the light off of at all
times of the morning when the South sunrays bounce off it. Assorted glass
things with pressed flowers in the middle so I keep them just out of the
direct rays, some cheaper "stained glass" type things my son's got me for
the thought at the time when they were younger that are still neat, and
hanging on the edges of some of the smaller pots, stained glass hangy wire
butterflies and dragonflies made with marbles and springy
antenna.,.................

......

Heh. My neighbor will stand on his side of the yard, directly by any open
window we have, and scream our names repeatedly until we answer. We've
actually had to duck while walking by the windows.

No, don't duck as you walk by the windows, when you see him standing there
by your open window as he's screaming your names repeatedly, don't answer,
smile real loony like, toothy, open mouthed smile (like a bleeding loooooony
GBSEG) and wave and then turn your head and walk on. Don't stop. He'll
think yer nutz and start leaving you alone. (people hate being ignored, i
mean, don't duck, that gives him power and he's won, just smile insanely and
wave and keep going on with your business inside and don't acknowledge him.
Baffle him with bullshit)



Good luck, Victoria I've been pondering all the great advice everyone here
has given, and I've decided to follow it. We decided what the heck, we're
going to take down the existing 3 ft. high chain link fence, and replace it
with a 6 ft.

Well hell in THAT case, go to Lowes and get 50 foot of 72 inch chain link (I
don't think it comes in 100 foot but it might) for around $37 a roll and
once you've removed hte 3 foot and rolled it up, the posts are still there
to use. Lowes gives you chain link pins (looks like big ol' hairpins to
secure the chainlink to the post) they come with the rolls. I should know, I
worked the garden center for a year and a half. And if Depot's prices are
cheaper, go back to Lowes with proof and they'll sell you the same thing at
Depot's price PLUS 10%.

I have six foot chain link fence around the west and north portion of my
property which is the reason I'm not bothered by the deer that are in the
woods in front of me. They pass thru outside the peremeter but don't venture
up here where they'd deffinately find succulent tender stuff to munch right
now (like that vinca major that has TAKEN OVER THE RIDGE AGAIN
ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH) but the fence also keeps out the coyote. The wild
turkeys, skunks, coons, possoms, turkey vultures, owls, partridges, quail,
cranes, foxes, woodchucks and various snakes, frogs, turtles and the like
are still using the driveway as a gateway into the slice of property me and
the bendejo across the shared way who owns the majority of the property that
wraps around me. Since the previous owner of my house was the one who put
up the fence, it encloses the whole inner portion of land. That would be
around 10 acres I think. They couldn't afford to enclose the whole 32 acres
at the time and did the inner piece of land with her's and her dad's house
and barn and such enclosed.

Above that six foot chain link, they also put an outwards angled bar that
holds three strands of barb wire that brings the whole fence up to about 8
1/2 or 9 foot. The barb wire deters anything from climbing or jumping over,
doesn't restrict the view but the honeysuckle grows up and along it just
fine. Be sure you get top supports for the wire which will give more
stability to the chain link. And get those fence post caps for a buck more
to ensure wasps don't use them as nesting places. (they will every time).

Then, we're going to buy those vinyl strips for weaving through the fence.
It'll create a solid wall, and it'll be sturdy enough for me to grow
climbing things on my side, without too much growing off into the neighbor's
yard.

And THOSE are awesome. And easy to weave. If you want another annual vine
to plant on the fence, but it will reseed, try Dolchios or Lab Lab vine
(Hyacinth bean) beautiful leaves of heart shaped, fuzzy with burgandy backed
and dark stems, flowers are set on long stems rising at an angle eight
inches away, deep pinkish purple blossoms followed by eye popping electric
purple pods and later if you leave the pods alone, they seeds will fall (and
feed a few birds) and come back up. Or you can save the seeds when the pods
have completely dried on the vines and started to pop open, you can gather
them in a ziploc and store them in the veggie drawer until spring and sow
them again along the base of the chain link fence. Tha's what I'm a doin'
this spring with mine after I cut back some of the honeysuckle that insists
it's returning from the pasture side of my link fence. I'd rather have the
Lab Lab vine with it's heart shaped leaves. (yes, honeysuckle smells divine,
but it will squeeze the life outa things and gets a bit out of hand)



Thank you!

Keep us posted on the fence and vine progress.

madgardener up on the ridge, back in Faerie Holler, overlooking English
Mountain in Eastern Tennessee, zone 7 (feels like lower Montana today with
temps down to 7o and windchills of below zero, my birds were waiting for me
to pour hot water into the water recepticle today so they could at least
drink even if I don't have sunflower seed of suet, they cleaned me out)
Sunset zone 36

"madgardener" wrote in message
...

"Aunty Kreist" wrote in message
...

Ya know what, putting up those evergreens was probably the smartest thing
you could have done! If he's monitoring your yard with that kind of
paranoia, chances are he's watching you frequently, and trying to see
through windows. You may even want to consider buying those stained glass
colored window decals on windows facing his house ( they sell them at home
depot). They make the room look pretty, and deter anyone from seeing in.



LOL well in MY case, even when I lived in the city with a house that was
only eight foot away from my kitchen windows, and across the driveway on
the
opposite side of the house near my BEDROOM window (12 feet) I loved open
windows as much as I do here in the middle of pastures and hillsides and
woods on this ridge, and that means I have so many plants and hangies in
my
window's, I don't NEED stained glass decals. I have the real things. I
have
suction cup hangers with all sorts and manner of horticultural themed
stained glass to capture the sun's rays and to block the visibility
inside,
and plants soaking up the winter lights. I can look around them just fine.
On my nook window alone I have glass ladybugs, bumble bee, hummingbird,
four
kinds and colors of butterflies, a morning glory, blue magnolia blossom
with
red center, glass prism/mother of pearl marble hangie that reflects light
rays, a prism that only works at a specific time of the day and an old
fashioned glass ball with many facets to reflect the light off of at all
times of the morning when the South sunrays bounce off it. Assorted glass
things with pressed flowers in the middle so I keep them just out of the
direct rays, some cheaper "stained glass" type things my son's got me for
the thought at the time when they were younger that are still neat, and
hanging on the edges of some of the smaller pots, stained glass hangy wire
butterflies and dragonflies made with marbles and springy
antenna.,.................

This sounds absolutely gorgeous!


.....

Heh. My neighbor will stand on his side of the yard, directly by any open
window we have, and scream our names repeatedly until we answer. We've
actually had to duck while walking by the windows.

No, don't duck as you walk by the windows, when you see him standing there
by your open window as he's screaming your names repeatedly, don't answer,
smile real loony like, toothy, open mouthed smile (like a bleeding
loooooony
GBSEG) and wave and then turn your head and walk on. Don't stop. He'll
think yer nutz and start leaving you alone. (people hate being ignored, i
mean, don't duck, that gives him power and he's won, just smile insanely
and
wave and keep going on with your business inside and don't acknowledge
him.
Baffle him with bullshit)

Heh. Good idea! Sometimes if we're out in the yard, and the neighbors start
pestering, we do pretend we don't hear them, and go inside.




Good luck, Victoria I've been pondering all the great advice everyone here
has given, and I've decided to follow it. We decided what the heck, we're
going to take down the existing 3 ft. high chain link fence, and replace
it
with a 6 ft.

Well hell in THAT case, go to Lowes and get 50 foot of 72 inch chain link
(I
don't think it comes in 100 foot but it might) for around $37 a roll and
once you've removed hte 3 foot and rolled it up, the posts are still there
to use.

Someone was telling me that you can buy these sort of "caps" that go over
the existing posts, elongating them for a higher fence. Do these actually
exist?


Lowes gives you chain link pins (looks like big ol' hairpins to
secure the chainlink to the post) they come with the rolls. I should know,
I
worked the garden center for a year and a half. And if Depot's prices are
cheaper, go back to Lowes with proof and they'll sell you the same thing
at
Depot's price PLUS 10%.

Cool! I'll do that.


I have six foot chain link fence around the west and north portion of my
property which is the reason I'm not bothered by the deer that are in the
woods in front of me. They pass thru outside the peremeter but don't
venture
up here where they'd deffinately find succulent tender stuff to munch
right
now (like that vinca major that has TAKEN OVER THE RIDGE AGAIN
ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH) but the fence also keeps out the coyote. The wild
turkeys, skunks, coons, possoms, turkey vultures, owls, partridges, quail,
cranes, foxes, woodchucks and various snakes, frogs, turtles and the like
are still using the driveway as a gateway into the slice of property me
and
the bendejo across the shared way who owns the majority of the property
that
wraps around me. Since the previous owner of my house was the one who
put
up the fence, it encloses the whole inner portion of land. That would be
around 10 acres I think. They couldn't afford to enclose the whole 32
acres
at the time and did the inner piece of land with her's and her dad's house
and barn and such enclosed.

Wow, I would love to have that size of land to "work" with.


Above that six foot chain link, they also put an outwards angled bar that
holds three strands of barb wire that brings the whole fence up to about 8
1/2 or 9 foot. The barb wire deters anything from climbing or jumping
over,
doesn't restrict the view but the honeysuckle grows up and along it just
fine. Be sure you get top supports for the wire which will give more
stability to the chain link. And get those fence post caps for a buck more
to ensure wasps don't use them as nesting places. (they will every time).

Thank you for the advice- will do.

Then, we're going to buy those vinyl strips for weaving through the
fence.
It'll create a solid wall, and it'll be sturdy enough for me to grow
climbing things on my side, without too much growing off into the
neighbor's
yard.

And THOSE are awesome. And easy to weave. If you want another annual
vine
to plant on the fence, but it will reseed, try Dolchios or Lab Lab vine
(Hyacinth bean) beautiful leaves of heart shaped, fuzzy with burgandy
backed
and dark stems, flowers are set on long stems rising at an angle eight
inches away, deep pinkish purple blossoms followed by eye popping electric
purple pods and later if you leave the pods alone, they seeds will fall
(and
feed a few birds) and come back up. Or you can save the seeds when the
pods
have completely dried on the vines and started to pop open, you can gather
them in a ziploc and store them in the veggie drawer until spring and sow
them again along the base of the chain link fence.

I tried growing these last summer, and they did wonderfully. Beautiful,
beautiful flowers. They grew incredibly fast, too. I had planted them by the
railing on the deck, and by midsummer, they had created a solid wall on the
side of the deck.


Tha's what I'm a doin'
this spring with mine after I cut back some of the honeysuckle that
insists
it's returning from the pasture side of my link fence. I'd rather have
the
Lab Lab vine with it's heart shaped leaves. (yes, honeysuckle smells
divine,
but it will squeeze the life outa things and gets a bit out of hand)



Thank you!

Keep us posted on the fence and vine progress.

Will do- thank you muchly.


madgardener up on the ridge, back in Faerie Holler, overlooking English
Mountain in Eastern Tennessee, zone 7 (feels like lower Montana today with
temps down to 7o and windchills of below zero, my birds were waiting for
me
to pour hot water into the water recepticle today so they could at least
drink even if I don't have sunflower seed of suet, they cleaned me out)
Sunset zone 36