Thank God for Newton Hills State Park in South Dakota for I was able to
get seeds of Rock Elm. This is becoming a rare tree. It may go extinct
if we are not careful.

I made some cuttings tonight and planted about 200 seeds. Has anyone
had success with cuttings of elm species?

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

Now I am referencing Burns & Honkala, Silvics of North America Volume
2, Hardwoods,
circa 1991 #654. On page 823 it states and I quote.

--- quoting in parts page 823 ---
Trees 20 years old produce viable seeds....

Despite its high seed viability, rock elm regenerates poorly....
persistence of dormant terminal buds...... Emergent seedlings rarely
develop more than a single pair of leaves during the first growing
season due to this dormancy.

However under field conditions with competition....averaged only 27 cm
(10.6 in) in height 5 years after planting and only 52 cm (20.4 in) 10
years after planting in northern Wisconsin.
--- end quoting ---

I was expecting a species that grows almost as fast as American elm. It
seems not unreasonable to expect all species of elm to grow about the
same rate. That the metabolism within a specific species should all be
about the same.

This is making me suspicious that most endangered species of trees are
slow growing. That if a tree species is slow growing then its chances
of going extinct are that much greater.

This is bad news to me for I probably will not see my rock elm develop
into a "stand of trees" before I die.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

wrote:
Now I am referencing Burns & Honkala, Silvics of North America Volume
2, Hardwoods,
circa 1991 #654. On page 823 it states and I quote.

--- quoting in parts page 823 ---
Trees 20 years old produce viable seeds....

Despite its high seed viability, rock elm regenerates poorly....
persistence of dormant terminal buds...... Emergent seedlings rarely
develop more than a single pair of leaves during the first growing
season due to this dormancy.

However under field conditions with competition....averaged only 27 cm
(10.6 in) in height 5 years after planting and only 52 cm (20.4 in) 10
years after planting in northern Wisconsin.
--- end quoting ---

I was expecting a species that grows almost as fast as American elm. It
seems not unreasonable to expect all species of elm to grow about the
same rate. That the metabolism within a specific species should all be
about the same.

This is making me suspicious that most endangered species of trees are
slow growing. That if a tree species is slow growing then its chances
of going extinct are that much greater.

This is bad news to me for I probably will not see my rock elm develop
into a "stand of trees" before I die.

Let me quote some more from pages 823-824 from the Silvics book on
Hardwoods.

--- quoting 823-824 in part ---

Most elms are considered difficult to root by means of cuttings.
However, leaf-bud cuttings, consisting of leaf blade, axillary bud, and
a shield of stem tissue, treated with a growth hormone and held under
constant mist on a rooting medium of sand or mica, produced satisfactory
results for several species of elm including rock elm (5).
--- end quoting ---

Hopefully I found something new and good on cuttings. I found this year
in April that my tomatoes and cucumbers prefered my light lamp during
the night more so than the sunlight from the window as my indoor
greenhouse. So that the seedlings grew more in the direction of the
light lamps than the daytime sunlight.

So this gave me an idea to try on the Rock Elm. I do not have a mist
apparatus but I do have a light lamp for most of the nighttime.

And so far it is great. Normally the cuttings start wilting and droop
and then lose their leaves. But so far, because of the constant light
lamp at nighttime my Rock Elm cuttings are not drooping nor wilting.
Instead the leaves are firm and upright.

So maybe it is this special dosage of light lamp that will make the
difference as to success or failure of these cuttings. Perhaps the vigor
of the leaves will coax the stem to root.

I do not know if anyone has researched whether specific plants do better
under a light lamp rather than the sunlight. And whether the combination
of both sunlight in day and lightlamp during the night hours causes
vigorous growth.

I am hoping these lightlamps means the difference between success and
failure. It maybe like spruce in that the leaves take a long time to
drop. But I am encouraged by a telltale sign that some of the rock elm
leaves had begun to wilt sag and droop before I got home to place in the
soil pots but the lightlamp revived their vigor.

So maybe instead of mist, the lightlamp is the better catalyst to
regeneration.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

I am going to call it the Alaska effect. Since in Alaska summers can be
almost nearly 24 hours of sunlight.

Maybe this is the answer for such slow growing trees such as Pinyon
pine, Swiss stone pine and Korean pine.

But most of all, perhaps this is the best method of cuttings, where
placing them under a lightlamp for the nighttime increases the chances
and rate of rooting.

My Rock Elm seed of approx 150 were seeded last Friday and according to
the book, can germinate in 6 days provided the seed was dry. Mine were
not dry.

I have 24 cuttings in addition to the 150 seeds, both begun last Friday
12May. So I want to monitor their progress.

I find it hard to believe that since American Elm, White Elm grows fast
that the entire genus, Ulmus, would all be fast growers or relatively
fast growers. Willow genus is fast growing and as far as I know all
Salix are fast growers. But the pine genus, Pinus has fast growers and
slow ones such as Pinyon and the nut-pines.

So I wonder about the metabolism determinants in the DNA coding as to
fast growing compared to slow growing.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

Now my Rock Elm seed were all green when I planted them last Friday and
7 days are near approaching for today is Monday and I do not expect any
to germinate by Friday.

I expect this because the book says they need to be dry. But I wonder
why seeds need to be dry instead of green? Has anyone given a science
explanation or is this merely someone's wishy washy attitude.

I planted them green because I am under the suspicion of keeping the
procedures as close to what Nature provides and Nature does not take
time out and time off and dries the Rock Elm seed.

Contrary to drying the seed before planting, I suspect that the green
seed aids and facilitates germination in that some of the greenness
goes towards the aid of germination. Has anyone really studied the
science process of green to dry seed and whether it aids or hinders
germination.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

Of the 24 cuttings made last Friday, only 11 are not wilted and one
which is nearest to the lightlamp is sprouting a preexisting bud. I am
hoping that elm is like willow cuttings that lose all their old leaves
and sprout new leaves, along with, of course new roots formed.

Taxus cuttings on the other hand kept all their old leaves when forming
new roots. But maybe all the hardwoods lose their leaves.

None of the 150 seeds have done anything, but this is just day 4 for
them.

I am beginning to think that the best way to tell apart species of elm
is from their seed. It is easy to distinguish Rock Elm seed from the
other elm species. In fact, on my trip to the Newton Hills State Park,
I kept looking on the ground for fallen seeds to tell me if the tree
was Rock Elm. The Rock Elm in Ponca State Park Nebraska looks like a
American Elm in form and shape and has no corky branches, but the seed
cases is distinguishable.

I am resting most of my hopes on the seed and little if none on the
cuttings.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

wrote in message
oups.com...

... But I wonder
why seeds need to be dry instead of green? Has anyone given a science
explanation or is this merely someone's wishy washy attitude.
...

I don't know the answer for this species, but delayed germination can
have a survival benefit for some species.

Delays can get the seeds past difficult seasons or conditions and
start the seedling growing at a more propitious time.

Delays can also give seeds more chance to disperse, allowing the
species to colonize a larger territory.

Perhaps the drying out functions as a delay timer, or perhaps it
signals to the seed that it is in sunlight, away from the shade of
the parent tree or other plants.

All just speculation on my part.

Good luck with your seedlings.

Alan

Alan Meyer wrote:
I don't know the answer for this species, but delayed germination can
have a survival benefit for some species.

Delays can get the seeds past difficult seasons or conditions and
start the seedling growing at a more propitious time.

Delays can also give seeds more chance to disperse, allowing the
species to colonize a larger territory.

Perhaps the drying out functions as a delay timer, or perhaps it
signals to the seed that it is in sunlight, away from the shade of
the parent tree or other plants.

All just speculation on my part.

Good luck with your seedlings.

Alan

A.P. replies:

Reasonable answers. Another answer is that dry seeds can travel farther
in the wind than green seeds.

I wonder about the cuttings and the shrivelled leaves. I wonder if each
leaf is directly connected to some root, or part of a root. And if that
root is severed or removed, the leaf corresponding to that root
shrivels and dies. So that if an insect eats all of one specific root
whether specific leaves die as a consequence. So that as these cuttings
have no roots, all the leaves will die. Hopefully new roots are formed.

I have to be as accurate as possible. It was last Friday I collected
the seed and it was Saturday that I planted them. So today marks one
full week. And I have 2 germinations of seed, ulmus americana, not rock
elm. I have some american and siberian elm as reference. It is the Rock
Elm that I want. I have about 150 Rock Elm seeds planted. And I have 24
Rock Elm cuttings with leaves severly shriveled. I think they are
getting too much sun from the window acting as a lens. So I think I
shall move them to a shady spot. I still keep the night lamp on them
for most of the nighttime. I expect few if any survivors for the
cuttings but worth the try.

So it takes just 7 days for American Elm to start to germinate. Perhaps
I should have waited to dry the Rock Elm seed before planting them.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

Well it was Saturday the 13th of May that I planted the cuttings and
seedlings. And today is day number #9. I have 4 american elm seedlings
germinated. I have no Rock elm germinated nor Siberian elm.

But a big surprise occurred last night. I noticed that one of the
cuttings of the 24 Rock elm cuttings has put out a green bud.
Surprizing because this cutting had no leaves to start with. I am
expecting cuttings with some leaves to be of an advantage. That
expectation may prove false. And this cutting has a diameter of about
that of a pencil. Whereas most are the diameter half that, and some are
twice that. So diameter of cutting maybe important as to whether the
cutting forms roots.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

Mostly, woody materials used for vegetative propagation are left with
minimal vegetation so as to minimise the loss of water through
transpiration.

Kye.

wrote in message
ups.com...
Well it was Saturday the 13th of May that I planted the cuttings and
seedlings. And today is day number #9. I have 4 american elm seedlings
germinated. I have no Rock elm germinated nor Siberian elm.

But a big surprise occurred last night. I noticed that one of the
cuttings of the 24 Rock elm cuttings has put out a green bud.
Surprizing because this cutting had no leaves to start with. I am
expecting cuttings with some leaves to be of an advantage. That
expectation may prove false. And this cutting has a diameter of about
that of a pencil. Whereas most are the diameter half that, and some are
twice that. So diameter of cutting maybe important as to whether the
cutting forms roots.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

Kye wrote:
Mostly, woody materials used for vegetative propagation are left with
minimal vegetation so as to minimise the loss of water through
transpiration.

A.P. replies:
Sounds like a good enough of a reason for me to cut and remove all the
leaves tonight.
If the one with no leaves has signs of a new bud, then leaves are of no
help in forming
new roots.

So I am guessing that it is in the cambium layer where success of new
roots occurs.
And if that is true, is the cambium layer more abundant in thicker
cuttings than in small diameter.

Also, tonight I have 2 sprouts of Siberian elm along with the 4
American elm. But no Rock elm as yet. Some of the sprouts are coming up
deformed, by that I mean that they are not green leaves but that the
head still has the seed casing attached. Whether these seedlings will
die is yet to be found out.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

The good news tonight is that I have 3 Rock Elm seedlings germinated out
of a starting total of 150 on 13May and I have 2 cuttings with green
buds out of a total of 24 on 13May. The bad news is that I lost 28
seedlings as their seed casing turned out to be empty of its "nuclear
seed mass" (I am sure botanists have a special name for this seed mass
inside the casing. Whether there was no seed mass to start with or
whether bacteria and fungus ate it. Perhaps this is another reason to
let the seed dry before attempting to plant.

So I started with 150 seed and 24 cuttings and success with 5
individuals so far. I will be happy if I end up with 20 Rock Elm plants.

The reference samples I have 7 American elm seedlings and 3 Siberian elm
germinated. Now I will be trying to distinguish between Rock elm,
American elm and Siberian elm seedlings. I suspect this is a tough
assignment and that the seeds themselves are the best distinguishers.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

I found a cutworm and that was the cause of losing 28 seedlings of a
hole eaten out of them and their seed mass eaten. Apparently the
cutworm hitched a ride on the cuttings
and when the green leaves turned dry, it started eating the seeds.

Hopefully I can get 20 Rock elm when this is all finished.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

I ended up with zero cuttings becoming viable. I did end up with 4 new
rock elm seedlings but that is a pitiful success rate starting with 175
seeds. Maybe a cutworm did the damage. Maybe the seed were not properly
dried. Maybe I did not look closely at the seed collected, since they
were green, that they had been eaten at the tree site.

Maybe Rock Elm seed have a low viability rate. I planted about 50
siberian elm and 7 of them germinated. I planted about 50 american elm
and 11 of them germinated. Now I am transplanting them into larger
pots.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

"a_plutonium"

| The good news tonight is that I have 3 Rock Elm seedlings germinated out
| of a starting total of 150 on 13May


--------
Da books sez "From 5 to 12 percent of the viable seed sown can be expected to produce
plantable stock." Perhaps you should read the book to your seeds.



--
donald j haarmann
-----------------------------
For a successful technology,
reality must take precedence
over public relations,
for Nature cannot be fooled.
[The late] Richard Feynman
Commenting on the 1st Space
Shuttle mess.