It seems like every time I turn around there is another person
bemoaning the fact that they didn't put in a bottom drain when they
built their pond. Being as how I am digging a (small) pond right now,
I would like to avoid such a mistake, and the time for a bottom drain
is now when the pond is being constructed, but I can't see the
advantage in having one. What am I missing?
--
Galen Hekhuis
I have no idea what happened, but I assure you it was all proper.

"Galen Hekhuis" wrote in message
...
It seems like every time I turn around there is another person
bemoaning the fact that they didn't put in a bottom drain when they
built their pond. Being as how I am digging a (small) pond right now,
I would like to avoid such a mistake, and the time for a bottom drain
is now when the pond is being constructed, but I can't see the
advantage in having one. What am I missing?
======================
If it works right and don't constantly clog with leaves and frogs, it should
remove the sludge and mulm that tends to collect on all pond bottoms. No
more drain downs like we have to do. But then if there are fry... you still
have to do draindowns to remove them.
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 18:14:08 CST, "Reel McKoi"
wrote:

======================
If it works right and don't constantly clog with leaves and frogs, it should
remove the sludge and mulm that tends to collect on all pond bottoms. No
more drain downs like we have to do. But then if there are fry... you still
have to do draindowns to remove them.

I've never had mine clog with any of the above. Have you? ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 17:41:14 CST, Galen Hekhuis
wrote:

It seems like every time I turn around there is another person
bemoaning the fact that they didn't put in a bottom drain when they
built their pond. Being as how I am digging a (small) pond right now,
I would like to avoid such a mistake, and the time for a bottom drain
is now when the pond is being constructed, but I can't see the
advantage in having one. What am I missing?

It is one of those things you don't realize you need till you need it.

Even if not going to a filter, put one in so it will drain away into your
lake, so much better than pumping it out. With a drain you can open a valve
and rinse it ALL out. Only a hose is needed. Pumps never get it all and
take a lot of water if you have to keep stirring it up hoping to get it
all. Usually you have to get out the wet/dry vac. Just pulling the
equipment out alone is a pita once you're of "that age". ;-) Just a hose is
SO much easier. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

"~ jan" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 18:14:08 CST, "Reel McKoi"
wrote:

======================
If it works right and don't constantly clog with leaves and frogs, it
should
remove the sludge and mulm that tends to collect on all pond bottoms. No
more drain downs like we have to do. But then if there are fry... you
still
have to do draindowns to remove them.

I've never had mine clog with any of the above. Have you? ~ jan
================================
No but Margaret's did. How did you keep leaves and frogs away from the
drains intake?
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 17:41:14 CST, Galen Hekhuis
wrote:

Being as how I am digging a (small) pond right now,
I would like to avoid such a mistake, and the time for a bottom drain
is now when the pond is being constructed, but I can't see the
advantage in having one. What am I missing?

Bottom drains allow the leaves, trash and quite a bit of fish waste to
escape the pond into a settlement barrel (in my case) or filter system
where the undesirables can be removed or flushed more easily than
vacuuming from the bottom of the pond, or even less desirable, allowed
to decay or build up on the bottom.

If you want to get into super water quality for show fish, I'd
recommend something like this, with air.
http://tinyurl.com/2a4wjq
--
Hal Middle Georgia, Zone 8
http://tinyurl.com/2fxzcb

On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 01:18:23 CST, "Reel McKoi"
wrote:

How did you keep leaves and frogs away from the
drains intake?

I don't try, they get sucked into the prefilter, If a frog were to get
sucked in, it could crawl out of the prefilter, I net out any goldfish with
no damage. In the koi ponds not a problem, fish too big, and a bullfrog
would be too big to fit between lid and liner. What kind of bottom drain
does Margaret have, how big is the line feeding it? Sound like a design
problem if things are clogging it. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

"~ jan" wrote in message
...
I don't try, they get sucked into the prefilter, If a frog were to get
sucked in, it could crawl out of the prefilter, I net out any goldfish
with
no damage. In the koi ponds not a problem, fish too big, and a bullfrog
would be too big to fit between lid and liner. What kind of bottom drain
does Margaret have, how big is the line feeding it? Sound like a design
problem if things are clogging it. ~ jan
============================
Jan I don't know what kind she had. It sucked the water from the pond
bottom and sprayed it across a large filter filled with plants (pickerel
weed). Or it could be diverted onto her lawn. Large bullfrogs and leaves in
the fall where her problem more so than fish. Her husband (died of a heart
attack about 4 years ago) would have to go into the pond and unclog it. I
have no idea how he did that if a frog of clump of leaves were in the hose
feeding the filter. Unfortunately Margaret was killed in a head on collision
in Nashville about 2 years ago. Maybe they didn't have the same type you
have since her pond was at least 10 years old.
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 22:54:26 CST, ~ jan wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 18:14:08 CST, "Reel McKoi"
wrote:

======================
If it works right and don't constantly clog with leaves and frogs, it should
remove the sludge and mulm that tends to collect on all pond bottoms. No
more drain downs like we have to do. But then if there are fry... you still
have to do draindowns to remove them.

I've never had mine clog with any of the above. Have you? ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

My brother-in-law has a nice bottom drain with 2" pipe that outflows
to his skimmer. A few weeks ago he was checking the skimmer and found
a fish that had disappeared 4-5 months before.

It had apparently been living in the 2" pipe all that time and had
finally ended up in the skimmer.

Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.
"I always wanted to be somebody...I should have been more specific..." - Lily Tomlin

On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 11:34:05 CST, Mike Patterson
wrote:

My brother-in-law has a nice bottom drain with 2" pipe that outflows
to his skimmer. A few weeks ago he was checking the skimmer and found
a fish that had disappeared 4-5 months before.

It had apparently been living in the 2" pipe all that time and had
finally ended up in the skimmer.

When I had a mix of goldfish and koi, it was not unusual for me to
find a small goldfish that had gone down the bottom drain to the
filter barrels and was growing faster than the ones living in the
pond. I started netting them out, but could swear some of the same
fish were back the next time I cleaned the filters. From what I've
seen they don't like pipes they can't turn around in and I suspect if
the fish was too large to turn around in the 2" pipe it was really
glad to be rescued.
--
Hal Middle Georgia, Zone 8
http://tinyurl.com/2fxzcb

"Hal" wrote in message
...
When I had a mix of goldfish and koi, it was not unusual for me to
find a small goldfish that had gone down the bottom drain to the
filter barrels and was growing faster than the ones living in the
pond. I started netting them out, but could swear some of the same
fish were back the next time I cleaned the filters. From what I've
seen they don't like pipes they can't turn around in and I suspect if
the fish was too large to turn around in the 2" pipe it was really
glad to be rescued.
=============================
Margaret's setup didn't have an area for fish to survive. The filter was a
mass of solid roots from the Pickerel Weed. Anything that went through the
pipe landed in the roots. I never did understand how that filter worked
without clogging.
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

"Hal" wrote in message
When I had a mix of goldfish and koi, it was not unusual for me to
find a small goldfish that had gone down the bottom drain to the
filter barrels and was growing faster than the ones living in the
pond. I started netting them out, but could swear some of the same
fish were back the next time I cleaned the filters.

Ditto, course I think mine were sneaking into the prefilter as that is
where most of the tadpoles ended up after I started the filter last spring.
I could always tell when a fish was in the prefilter as I couldn't find a
tad pole (they went into hiding amongst the screening on the bottom). Once
the fish was taken out the taddies would come out.

The lily pond prefilter has a different set up then my koi pond one where
it is up flow thru layers of screening. DS made a cylinder of screening,
with the pipe to the pump chamber going into the center. Thankfully there
were folds at the bottom for the taddies to save themselves. He has since
removed that for a neater appearance once the taddies grew up and next year
there won't be any taddies as the fish will be in the pond during their
mating time. (I'm hoping they'll go to the alternative quarters I'll have
for them.)

Anyway.... at one time I found almost all my goldfish in the pre-filter as
if the one had told the others of the big feast down the pipe. Thankfully
after a scolding, and probably growing bigger on tadpole snacks, most
stayed out of it after that.

All comes down to design both of the filter and bottom drain style. In my
koi pond they wouldn't fair as well stuck under the screening till I
cleaned it and there is more turns in that pipe and faster flow, but the
koi are too big to get in. The lily pond set up is perfect for a ride and
fairly easy for me to net them out as soon as I discover them gone. Next
year though I expect most of the adults to be too large to fit between lid
& liner and with the anti-vortex lid, the pull isn't that strong in any
given area. Not looking forward to netting out a lot of fry.... who may
find themselves living in the prefilter for a bit growing. ;-) ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

On Fri, 4 Jan 2008 12:31:24 CST, "Reel McKoi"
wrote:

Margaret's setup didn't have an area for fish to survive. The filter was a
mass of solid roots from the Pickerel Weed. Anything that went through the
pipe landed in the roots. I never did understand how that filter worked
without clogging.

I couldn't have gotten away with that either. I'm glad it worked for
her.
--
Hal Middle Georgia, Zone 8
http://tinyurl.com/2fxzcb

On Fri, 4 Jan 2008 20:06:24 CST, ~ jan wrote:

Anyway.... at one time I found almost all my goldfish in the pre-filter as
if the one had told the others of the big feast down the pipe. Thankfully
after a scolding, and probably growing bigger on tadpole snacks, most
stayed out of it after that.

I gather you must have frogs. I've seen my goldfish and tadpoles
competing for any bits of food that might be available and more than
once I've seen goldfish spit out a toad tadpole. I don't think they
eat them at all. I'm a bit jealous of people who have real frogs.
At first I was glad to see toads mating in my pond. I think all the
firstborn came back the following year and brought friends to the
point they were so numerous they became a bit of a nuisance and I
began to ignore them as I was cleaning and stopped trying to protect
them. It didn't reduce the numbers, there are still too many each
year, but we ignore each other and press on with living.

All comes down to design both of the filter and bottom drain style. In my
koi pond they wouldn't fair as well stuck under the screening till I
cleaned it and there is more turns in that pipe and faster flow, but the
koi are too big to get in. The lily pond set up is perfect for a ride and
fairly easy for me to net them out as soon as I discover them gone. Next
year though I expect most of the adults to be too large to fit between lid
& liner and with the anti-vortex lid, the pull isn't that strong in any
given area. Not looking forward to netting out a lot of fry.... who may
find themselves living in the prefilter for a bit growing. ;-) ~ jan

Possibly due to my short experience with koi, I never had trouble with
koi in my pipes, it was always goldfish.
The closest thing I have to a prefilter has filter screens in it at
present, and I've improved their fit to the barrel since last time I
had spawning fish so I'm hoping they will only get to the first barrel
only in the future, but I'm adjusting to whatever they do. I've
closed up the gap around the bottom drain dome and the pond liner to
about 1/4", but that is just about right for small goldfish to pass
through without slowing down and the first barrel is still open to
them. The good thing is I've made my adjustment.
--
Hal Middle Georgia, Zone 8
http://tinyurl.com/2fxzcb

Our pump is at the bottom of the pond in a 5 gal bucket, standing on
bricks to give some space under it. The bucket has as many 1/2" holes
as I could drill into it, so the pull is not strong. We do get some
small fish going through the pipes...less than 1/2"! The bucket is in
our old spetic tank, so one time per year, I pick up the large stuff
that fell in, using a pool net. All the floating waste goes through
the pipes. The heavier stuff, like pine cones, branches and pine
needles, stays on the bottom.

The main pond itself always has a clean bottom as the flow and the koi
carry everything down into the old septic tank...which goes down 5'
from the pond bottom. Euphenistically, Phyllis calls it the 'deep
well'.

The berm ponds collect the muck. Galen, I can't tell you how much
more fun it is to open a single 2" drain to clean out the berm
ponds...consider the alternative: hose draining? scooping?

Jim