Hi, new here and new to the world of ponds, don't have weeks to peruse
archives, so please forgive dumb questions?
The new pond is rubber-lined, about 6' deep in the middle, 30' by 40'
oval shaped, guessing about 20K gallons? Fed by spring water, (spring
box makes about 800 gallons a day), new water is added about every half
hour-40 minutes and exits into a drain on the other side, so it's kinda
natch'rl, ya know. Has a recirculating pump drawing from near the
surface and flowing over a two tier waterfall, so some air bubbles
always going.
Put about 20 feeder goldfish in about a week ago; they were looking
pretty happy, so added 5 (4-6") koi a few days ago. They seem very
happy, but little goldfish are gone, so I figure they became lunch.
Question is this: Does this set-up sound like it might be OK? I
tested the water and it seems to be within spec, and I have had
aquariums for years, just not a pond. Will this pond undergo the whole
"break-in cycle" since it is constantly changing water? Is the number
of Koi good to accomplish "break-in" if so?
Any comments, suggestions, etc?
Thanks in advance for any responses!
Mike

On 11 Aug 2006 16:13:06 -0700, "Mike" wrote:

Put about 20 feeder goldfish in about a week ago; they were looking
pretty happy, so added 5 (4-6") koi a few days ago. They seem very
happy, but little goldfish are gone, so I figure they became lunch.

Koi and goldfish don't usually eat fish that are big enough to be
recognized as fish. Look in the drain, or downstream in a deeper
pool of water. I have goldfish in my filter barrel all the time and
the have to get there through a drain covered by a dome in the main
pond.

I couldn't keep koi fish in such a shallow pond. I think they need
deeper water and I've read that show koi people like for them to have
an 8' deep pond to develop a better shape from the up and down
swimming.

It sounds like a nice place for turtles or ducks and lilies.

Regards,

Hal

Hal wrote:
On 11 Aug 2006 16:13:06 -0700, "Mike" wrote:

Put about 20 feeder goldfish in about a week ago; they were looking
pretty happy, so added 5 (4-6") koi a few days ago. They seem very
happy, but little goldfish are gone, so I figure they became lunch.

Koi and goldfish don't usually eat fish that are big enough to be
recognized as fish. Look in the drain, or downstream in a deeper
pool of water. I have goldfish in my filter barrel all the time and
the have to get there through a drain covered by a dome in the main
pond.

I couldn't keep koi fish in such a shallow pond. I think they need
deeper water and I've read that show koi people like for them to have
an 8' deep pond to develop a better shape from the up and down
swimming.

Hi Hal,
Supprised at your response. Here in Oregon we've seen lots of koi in
much shallower water- like 2 or three feet deep, and they seemed to be
thriving. I guess I'll just wait and see how things develop.
I was surprised to see the goldfish gone, since I thought koi were
mostly vegetarians, but there is little chance they made it to the
drain because there is a little shelf right before the exit waterfall,
and the water is only an eighth of an inch (or so) deep as it goes over
the shelf. There is also a mini pool around the drain where I'm sure
they'd hang out if they made it that far. There were some racoon
prints on the shelf that goes around, though, and some kingfishers have
been lurking around...still I thought at least a few might make it.
Regards,
Mike




It sounds like a nice place for turtles or ducks and lilies.

Regards,

Hal

"Mike" wrote in message
oups.com...

Hal wrote:
I couldn't keep koi fish in such a shallow pond. I think they need
deeper water and I've read that show koi people like for them to have
an 8' deep pond to develop a better shape from the up and down
swimming.
=====
Hi Hal,
Supprised at your response. Here in Oregon we've seen lots of koi in
much shallower water- like 2 or three feet deep, and they seemed to be
thriving. I guess I'll just wait and see how things develop.

My shallowest pond is only around 24" deep and our koi thrive and reproduce
like crazy in it.

I was surprised to see the goldfish gone, since I thought koi were
mostly vegetarians, but there is little chance they made it to the
drain because there is a little shelf right before the exit waterfall,
and the water is only an eighth of an inch (or so) deep as it goes over
the shelf.

If you have herons, snapping turtles, water snakes, Kingfishers or
bullfrogs they may have become someone's dinner.

There is also a mini pool around the drain where I'm sure
they'd hang out if they made it that far. There were some racoon
prints on the shelf that goes around, though, and some kingfishers have
been lurking around...still I thought at least a few might make it.
Regards,

Then most likely your koi will soon be gone as well! To have any fish at
all we had to net everything.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

On 11 Aug 2006 18:44:24 -0700, "Mike" wrote:

Supprised at your response. Here in Oregon we've seen lots of koi in
much shallower water- like 2 or three feet deep, and they seemed to be
thriving. I guess I'll just wait and see how things develop.
I was surprised to see the goldfish gone, since I thought koi were
mostly vegetarians, but there is little chance they made it to the
drain because there is a little shelf right before the exit waterfall,
and the water is only an eighth of an inch (or so) deep as it goes over
the shelf. There is also a mini pool around the drain where I'm sure
they'd hang out if they made it that far. There were some racoon
prints on the shelf that goes around, though, and some kingfishers have
been lurking around...still I thought at least a few might make it.

I read your original post to say six inches deep (6") was that six
feet instead? Six inches is too shallow in my opinion to keep koi.
My pond isn't for show koi either it is a garden pond with mutts and
only 2' deep. I'm sorry if I read the dimension wrong. I have only
4 long fin koi of my own, but I have a couple boarders waiting on pond
repairs and one of them isn't quite grown yet, but would barely be
able to swim in 6" of water and if she got in a hurry there would be a
wake.

Koi and goldfish are bottom feeders that in a natural mud bottom pond
would not only eat vegetation, but animal life in the mud bottom as
well as small things that live in the water. I have a friend who
says they can strip a small bullfrog right out of the skin and spit
out the skin, I've never seen this, but koi allow too many fry to live
each year to be fish eaters. (They do eat the eggs.) They vacuum up
dirt/mud and spit out what they don't like. The koi even have teeth
of a sort in the back of their mouth/throat to crush shells of muscles
and snails, but I don't think they are likely to eat small fish.
This is why a lily pot not protected with stones over the top of the
dirt soon becomes an empty container with the potting soil spread all
over the bottom of the pond. They don't seem content to just destroy
the potting job, but continue to sift through the dirt for a while.
That may be where the expression "Dumb as dirt." came from.

I'm sorry you lost your fish, but that is the reason we buy feeders,
and I would try putting hiding places in the pond. I lost fish to
predators some years ago, but since have added some small red maple
and a menagerie of other things that prevent a heron with long wings
from having a clear open space to land. I have barrel ends with ports
cut in the sides weighted down (plastic barrels float.) with lily
pots. The fish use them at night and during winter, but I don't have
a racoon problem, I do have a have-a-heart trap and use it. Others
like things like water sprinklers and electric fences, or netting the
whole pond. I'm well into the city and don't want that kind of
wildlife or feral animals.

I have only known one person with a pond fed by a spring and the
biggest problem she had was algae growth. That isn't all bad,
because the fish like it, it just prevents us from seeing them during
the bloom. I don't think you have to worry about conditioning the
water/pond with such a rapid water change. Ammonia is the biggest
fear, just like in an aquarium, and the spring will continually
refresh the pond. I the fish are still alive, I wouldn't even worry
about pH, since there is a fish farmer near here that raises his fish
in water with a pH of 6. That is the way it comes out of the ground
and it works for him. OTOH most of us re circulate the same water
through a filter, that we depend on to convert ammonia/nitrates and
some don't even do the 10% water change weekly as recommended by Doc
Johnson (Koi Vet.).

Regards,

Hal

Hal wrote:
On 11 Aug 2006 18:44:24 -0700, "Mike" wrote:

Supprised at your response. Here in Oregon we've seen lots of koi in
much shallower water- like 2 or three feet deep, and they seemed to be
thriving. I guess I'll just wait and see how things develop.
I was surprised to see the goldfish gone, since I thought koi were
mostly vegetarians, but there is little chance they made it to the
drain because there is a little shelf right before the exit waterfall,
and the water is only an eighth of an inch (or so) deep as it goes over
the shelf. There is also a mini pool around the drain where I'm sure
they'd hang out if they made it that far. There were some racoon
prints on the shelf that goes around, though, and some kingfishers have
been lurking around...still I thought at least a few might make it.

I read your original post to say six inches deep (6") was that six
feet instead? Six inches is too shallow in my opinion to keep koi.
My pond isn't for show koi either it is a garden pond with mutts and
only 2' deep. I'm sorry if I read the dimension wrong. I have only
4 long fin koi of my own, but I have a couple boarders waiting on pond
repairs and one of them isn't quite grown yet, but would barely be
able to swim in 6" of water and if she got in a hurry there would be a
wake.


Thanks for getting back to me, Hal. Yes, the pond is pretty deep, and
has a big slab of flagstone sitting up on concrete blocks down there
for the fish to hide under. I think the koi flushed all the baby
goldfish out of there and forced them to seek shelter under rocks
around the perimeter where the predators could get at them pretty
easily. I'm not too bummed because their fate was to become food
anyway...but they were awful cute while they lasted.
The koi are growing so fast you can see them enlarging every day, all
but one white one with a red head that doesn't seem too bright.


Koi and goldfish are bottom feeders that in a natural mud bottom pond
would not only eat vegetation, but animal life in the mud bottom as
well as small things that live in the water. I have a friend who
says they can strip a small bullfrog right out of the skin and spit
out the skin, I've never seen this, but koi allow too many fry to live
each year to be fish eaters. (They do eat the eggs.) They vacuum up
dirt/mud and spit out what they don't like. The koi even have teeth
of a sort in the back of their mouth/throat to crush shells of muscles
and snails, but I don't think they are likely to eat small fish.
This is why a lily pot not protected with stones over the top of the
dirt soon becomes an empty container with the potting soil spread all
over the bottom of the pond. They don't seem content to just destroy
the potting job, but continue to sift through the dirt for a while.
That may be where the expression "Dumb as dirt." came from.

I'm sorry you lost your fish, but that is the reason we buy feeders,
and I would try putting hiding places in the pond. I lost fish to
predators some years ago, but since have added some small red maple
and a menagerie of other things that prevent a heron with long wings
from having a clear open space to land. I have barrel ends with ports
cut in the sides weighted down (plastic barrels float.) with lily
pots. The fish use them at night and during winter, but I don't have
a racoon problem, I do have a have-a-heart trap and use it. Others
like things like water sprinklers and electric fences, or netting the
whole pond. I'm well into the city and don't want that kind of
wildlife or feral animals.

I have only known one person with a pond fed by a spring and the
biggest problem she had was algae growth. That isn't all bad,
because the fish like it, it just prevents us from seeing them during
the bloom. I don't think you have to worry about conditioning the
water/pond with such a rapid water change. Ammonia is the biggest
fear, just like in an aquarium, and the spring will continually
refresh the pond. I the fish are still alive, I wouldn't even worry
about pH, since there is a fish farmer near here that raises his fish
in water with a pH of 6. That is the way it comes out of the ground
and it works for him. OTOH most of us re circulate the same water
through a filter, that we depend on to convert ammonia/nitrates and
some don't even do the 10% water change weekly as recommended by Doc
Johnson (Koi Vet.).


Thanks for that, Hal, that was exactly what I was hoping to hear! I'm
eventually going to keep adding fish slowly, but will probably just
keep the ones I have for the next few months and see what happens. The
little critters cost too much to feed to predators.

Best,
Mike



Regards,

Hal

Mike wrote:

Hi, new here and new to the world of ponds, don't have weeks to peruse
archives, so please forgive dumb questions?

Really weeks would have been a much better idea...

The new pond is rubber-lined, about 6' deep in the middle, 30' by 40'
oval shaped, guessing about 20K gallons? Fed by spring water, (spring
box makes about 800 gallons a day),

Oh lovely! It simplifies things so much when you get water added
automatically.

Put about 20 feeder goldfish in about a week ago; they were looking
pretty happy, so added 5 (4-6") koi a few days ago.

I really wouldn't have wanted to put koi in there so soon after the
goldfish. You have the advantage that you don't need to wait for a filter
to cycle, but one week seems like way too small a time to wait.

They seem very
happy, but little goldfish are gone, so I figure they became lunch.

In 6' deep by 30 to 40'? There is practically zero chance that you will see
those fish again until they reach 6" or more! They're probably loving it,
but they don't need to come to you for food. The feeders may have become
food for the koi, as there won't be much else there for them to feed on,
yet, but much more likely they're just keeping out of the way of the bigger
fish.

Question is this: Does this set-up sound like it might be OK? I
tested the water and it seems to be within spec, and I have had
aquariums for years, just not a pond. Will this pond undergo the whole
"break-in cycle" since it is constantly changing water?

It sounds like the sort of pond most of us would die for (except that dieing
would probably ruin the enjoyment :-) ). No, it won't ever cycle.
--
derek

Hal wrote:

I read your original post to say six inches deep (6") was that six
feet instead?

LOL. Six feet is far better than most of us can manage for our koi. I
think the show people believe even deeper is better, but 6' is very nice.
--
derek

"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...

In 6' deep by 30 to 40'? There is practically zero chance that you will
see
those fish again until they reach 6" or more! They're probably loving it,
but they don't need to come to you for food. The feeders may have become
food for the koi, as there won't be much else there for them to feed on,
yet, but much more likely they're just keeping out of the way of the
bigger
fish.
==============
As I recall you don't keep koi in your pond. I've never seen them eat fry
of any size although they will eat eggs if easy to reach on the pond liner.
I don't know if our feeding them twice daily has anything to do with it.
Sometimes I wish the would eat some of them as both the 800 and the 2000g
are already overrun with young koi. We'll have to drain the ponds and
remove all these new babies later in the fall.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Mike wrote:
Hi, new here and new to the world of ponds, don't have weeks to peruse
archives, so please forgive dumb questions?

Hey if you are dumb you don't deserve to be here.

Leave now.

Moderator

On 11 Aug 2006 16:13:06 -0700, "Mike" wrote:

The new pond is rubber-lined, about 6' deep in the middle, 30' by 40'
oval shaped, guessing about 20K gallons? Fed by spring water, (spring
box makes about 800 gallons a day), new water is added about every half
hour-40 minutes and exits into a drain on the other side, so it's kinda
natch'rl, ya know. Has a recirculating pump drawing from near the
surface and flowing over a two tier waterfall, so some air bubbles
always going.

What's the temperature? ~ jan
-----------------

Also ponding troll free at:
http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium

~ janj wrote:
On 11 Aug 2006 16:13:06 -0700, "Mike" wrote:

The new pond is rubber-lined, about 6' deep in the middle, 30' by 40'
oval shaped, guessing about 20K gallons? Fed by spring water, (spring
box makes about 800 gallons a day), new water is added about every half
hour-40 minutes and exits into a drain on the other side, so it's kinda
natch'rl, ya know. Has a recirculating pump drawing from near the
surface and flowing over a two tier waterfall, so some air bubbles
always going.

What's the temperature? ~ jan

Hi Jan, don't have a thermometer in there yet, but I'm guessing
it'saround mid 60'sF. The black liner soaks up lots of sun (when it
shines)...
Have some pictures of the construction and finished pond on my web
site:
http://www.sailinglinks.com/summer_06_.htm
I know we'll be needing more plants, but it's a start.
Best,
Mike


-----------------

Also ponding troll free at:
http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium

On 17 Aug 2006 17:08:14 -0700, "Mike" wrote:

What's the temperature? ~ jan

Hi Jan, don't have a thermometer in there yet, but I'm guessing
it'saround mid 60'sF. The black liner soaks up lots of sun (when it
shines)...
Have some pictures of the construction and finished pond on my web
site:
http://www.sailinglinks.com/summer_06_.htm
I know we'll be needing more plants, but it's a start.
Best,
Mike

Wow, Mike, that is beautiful and redoing a house at the same time! I love
the how you did the edging on the pond.

Was this a flow-through system or recirculating? If flow-through will the
mid-60's or fluctuate? Reason I ask is because goldfish & koi immune
systems work at their best at 62F and up. ~ jan
-----------------

Also ponding troll free at:
http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium

~ janj wrote:
On 17 Aug 2006 17:08:14 -0700, "Mike" wrote:

What's the temperature? ~ jan

Hi Jan, don't have a ...


Wow, Mike, that is beautiful and redoing a house at the same time! I love
the how you did the edging on the pond.

Was this a flow-through system or recirculating? If flow-through will the
mid-60's or fluctuate? Reason I ask is because goldfish & koi immune
systems work at their best at 62F and up. ~ jan

Thanks for the info, Jan. Fell into this with no preparation, as I
guess is obvious...but I try to learn fast. Yes to both, it
recirculates constantly, and gets a hundred or so gallons of new spring
water every hour or two that flows through. The coastal temps here in
Oregon don't fluctuate much, but undoubtedly the pond will drop below
62 this coming winter. "Everybody" (the guy I bought them from) says
koi can survive ice on their pond as long as you make a hole in it for
them to breathe through, and since that most likely won't happen here,
I'm hoping for the best, living in a fools paradise ;0)
Seriously, I'll get a thermometer and start checking the temps through
the winter and see what's what.
Happy Ponding,
Mike


-----------------

Also ponding troll free at:
http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium

Thanks for the info, Jan. Fell into this with no preparation, as I
guess is obvious...but I try to learn fast. Yes to both, it
recirculates constantly, and gets a hundred or so gallons of new spring
water every hour or two that flows through. The coastal temps here in
Oregon don't fluctuate much, but undoubtedly the pond will drop below
62 this coming winter. "Everybody" (the guy I bought them from) says
koi can survive ice on their pond as long as you make a hole in it for
them to breathe through, and since that most likely won't happen here,
I'm hoping for the best, living in a fools paradise ;0)
Seriously, I'll get a thermometer and start checking the temps through
the winter and see what's what.
Happy Ponding,
Mike

In your climate your fish are unlikely to have any problem with winter
weather. You should cut back on their food as the temperature drops
below about 60 deg F.

Rich