"~ janj" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 17:45:49 -0600, Tristan
wrote:

Ah so I did, but I also keep my koin na natural mud pond which is full
of natural stuff koi are meant to eat as well not kept in a liner or
preform pond, so ther eis a difference I do belive and I think the
others here will agree with me.
I feed catfish food, no trout as its not available here, but a 50
pound bag will last me a year or more as i use it only to throw a
small a maount out to entice the fish to come u p so I can have a look
see as to how they are all doing. Its called responsive feeding., Its
not meant to be nutritional in any way. It was a method recomeded to
me by the fisheries and biology department of The U of Florida. Do
you know of a better way? The entire object is get em up to look at,
not feed em enough to make em dependant or to give em any real
nourishment. Cheerios and other cereals was also on that list of
suggested responsive food stuff.

And I have no problem what so ever with that. I have no problem with Carol
feeding her fish whatever she wants or can afford. But, imho, people
shouldn't feed low quality food (especially non-fish food) to fish in a
liner pond with little to no natural food sources.

Why assume there are no natural food sources in a liner pond? Like most
ponders I have a load of plants and there's mulm on the bottom. They koi
feast on any insects that get close enough, worms I saw fall in with my own
eyes, worms I throw in, algae from the liner and plant pots, frog eggs and
taddies etc. I do not have those crystal clear sterile ponds some of you
have. I never said I did over the years.

Now to add something to this (and I probably shouldn't) but I have seen it
happen that fish fed high-corn foods (taste like candy) will put their
nose
at some of the higher quality feeds. Sometimes one has to buy small
containers of high quality food and see which the fish will like before
investing in the eco-bag-size. ~ jan

--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*







--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

I'm not going to keep this debate going, first it was fish food, then
research, next up came censorship where you turn the whole subject upside
down, sheesh what next? I guess your goal must be to confuse the bejezuz
out of whomever you're debating to win. Sheesh.

I wouldn't say your name with the same breath I would his.... no worry
there. ;-)

Ah, you did. Want me to go back and find the post? ~ jan

Go for it! If you ever called me a whore or idiot I didn't see the
post.......

I didn't say you said I called you those. Don't make things more
complicated than they are by twisting them. Look at sentence with
above.

Go to subject:
Attn: true rec.ponders -brief update for 12-3 -from george
Dated 12/4 2:56pm

Therein you did what you claimed you didn't in sentence marked
~ jan

~ janj wrote:
I'm not going to keep this debate going, first it was fish food, then
research, next up came censorship where you turn the whole subject upside
down, sheesh what next? I guess your goal must be to confuse the bejezuz
out of whomever you're debating to win. Sheesh.

I wouldn't say your name with the same breath I would his.... no
worry there. ;-)

Ah, you did. Want me to go back and find the post? ~ jan

Go for it! If you ever called me a whore or idiot I didn't see the
post.......

I didn't say you said I called you those. Don't make things more
complicated than they are by twisting them. Look at sentence with
above.

Go to subject:
Attn: true rec.ponders -brief update for 12-3 -from george
Dated 12/4 2:56pm

Therein you did what you claimed you didn't in sentence marked

I'm glad I don't archive this 'stuff'!

--
Nick. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their families!

Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! !
~Semper Fi~

Gail Futoran wrote:


Gill, I'm not sure why you appear to be harping on that last point. I and
others have said repeatedly the only thing we care about in a moderated
newsgroup is that posts be on topic, reasonably off topic, no flames, no
abuse, no irrelevant cross-posting.

I've read your posts here and in several of the aquaria newsgroups. You are
a poster I am comfortable reading and responding to because you've never
flamed me or done anything else that caused me to distrust you.

What does it matter whether or not you have a pond? It doesn't matter to
me, it doesn't matter to rec.ponders I've read over the years.

Gail


Thanks Gail....I guess it is because some of have been posting that
those without actual ponds have no right to join in these
discussions....and I guess now the point has been made....

Gill

Aw save everyone the headaches Jan we know who CAro is and how she
behaves and what she believe is good!

It really does not matter to anyone but her.

snip a bunch of spiel from a cheap skate ponder with a grudge on her
shoulder.




-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

Hmmmmmmmmm. quack medicines is that just like quack fish foods?

On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 19:20:09 -0600, Zëbulon
wrote:


"Gill Passman" wrote in message
. ..
At what point has anyone - me, Jan or Roy - actually stated that this is
not a valid discussion....methinks the woman protests too much
==================
Ok, so am I to assume that BOTH sides would be and could be presented?
:-) Even if the moderator/s don't agree that research has been proven to be
flawed and fudged in so many cases in the past?

One of the main reasons I stopped exposing Quack medicine was when I learned
just what the truth was were research is concerned.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

Right on Gail. No matter if yu have a poind or not Gill. Heck we (all
us ponders) will help ya get one under way when your ready....you show
more than sufficient interestin ponds and fish, than even some of the
so called die hard poinders do, and are a real asset to this group no
matter what knowledge yu may have. Questions builds a knowledebase,
and thats what this group needs more than trying to justify anyhtng to
an inept frugal ponder named Carol. You'll never teach her anything
anyhow and no amount of proof would ever meana thing to her either so
its all wasted time and effort.

Regards!


On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 01:16:42 GMT, "Gail Futoran"
wrote:

"Gill Passman" wrote in message
. ..
~ janj wrote:

It could be consider inflammatory, yet it doesn't call anyone any nasty
names. I'd have to pass it, but than would *I*, as a moderator, be
considered bias because the above poster just happens to agree with me?
~ jan

IMO you should post it if you become a moderator....part of an ongoing
discussion with valid points - I don't actually see this as inflammatory -
just disagreeing with the comments being made....and there are no insults
contained within - just a difference of opinion.....Sameways if I posted
this on the same topic I would expect it to get posted (and I don't need
to own a pond to do so)

It easy to argue that a certain type of food produces large and fat
fish...but then again you can look at a human fed on junk food all of
their life - large and fat - healthy I very much doubt it....but then
again it will depend on the quality of the "inappropiate food" being
fed....if it is designed to produce well nourished puppies and kitties
then maybe it will not cause fish to become obese but potentially is
missing essential nutrients for the species of creature you are feeding
and so therefore not suitable - the nutritional requirements of all are
different but generally we tend to make this decision based on species -
one creatures good is another creatures bad....my fish don't get my cat
food - my cat sure enjoys any spilt fish food....I'm not about to start
feeding either on food nutritienly made up for either (and it has to be
said it would get well expensive feeding my cat on fish food - volume
speaks for itself) - manufactured feeds are designed for the
animal/creature in question.....

I don't need to have a pond to make this post - it's still on-topic and
contains no attacks....

Gill

Gill, I'm not sure why you appear to be harping on that last point. I and
others have said repeatedly the only thing we care about in a moderated
newsgroup is that posts be on topic, reasonably off topic, no flames, no
abuse, no irrelevant cross-posting.

I've read your posts here and in several of the aquaria newsgroups. You are
a poster I am comfortable reading and responding to because you've never
flamed me or done anything else that caused me to distrust you.

What does it matter whether or not you have a pond? It doesn't matter to
me, it doesn't matter to rec.ponders I've read over the years.

Gail




-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

This is true, and I on occasson do buy higer priced actual koi foods,
but thats usually when its on closeout and I can get a decent proice,
but its still used for the same purpose, get em up and close to give
em a checkout. Their main staple is in that pond somnewhere and its up
to them to find it. They do not get enough of any kind of food from a
human handout to make any kind of significant difference tothem and
certainly not enough to get used to it and turntheir noses up at
natural or other foods.

Heck once water melons come in here my ponds are also fed melon chunks
as well and more to a degree than any other type food. only because I
canget just about all the melons I want for free.

Its easy pretty much to tell what food gets fed to what. The
manufactuers make it easy for those that can't read or do not
comprehend. Bags of food with a kitty cat on them gets fed to feline
animals, pics of puppys and dogs, gets fed to canines, bird pics means
the food is for birds.....

Now I have a dilema....I have a 97% hybrid wolf and have not found any
bags with a wolf on them. Can I feed it koi food or should I go with
cat or dog or ferret food?


On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 02:12:47 GMT, ~ janj wrote:

On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 17:45:49 -0600, Tristan
wrote:

Ah so I did, but I also keep my koin na natural mud pond which is full
of natural stuff koi are meant to eat as well not kept in a liner or
preform pond, so ther eis a difference I do belive and I think the
others here will agree with me.
I feed catfish food, no trout as its not available here, but a 50
pound bag will last me a year or more as i use it only to throw a
small a maount out to entice the fish to come u p so I can have a look
see as to how they are all doing. Its called responsive feeding., Its
not meant to be nutritional in any way. It was a method recomeded to
me by the fisheries and biology department of The U of Florida. Do
you know of a better way? The entire object is get em up to look at,
not feed em enough to make em dependant or to give em any real
nourishment. Cheerios and other cereals was also on that list of
suggested responsive food stuff.

And I have no problem what so ever with that. I have no problem with Carol
feeding her fish whatever she wants or can afford. But, imho, people
shouldn't feed low quality food (especially non-fish food) to fish in a
liner pond with little to no natural food sources.

Now to add something to this (and I probably shouldn't) but I have seen it
happen that fish fed high-corn foods (taste like candy) will put their nose
at some of the higher quality feeds. Sometimes one has to buy small
containers of high quality food and see which the fish will like before
investing in the eco-bag-size. ~ jan



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

Are you so intent on being an idiot or just a blind butt CArol. There
is not anywhere near enough natural foods in a liner pond to sustain
and do a koi of average size much good. Especiually a pond of say 4000
gal or smal land a handfull of decent sized koi. What do you think
they eat the mulm.......not likely, thats about beliveing a aquarium
catfish or snail eats "all" detrius and needs no additional foods and
leaves nothing in return to clean up. ....
Get a clue Carol if a pond as such is sufficient there would nort be a
need for additional feeds period now woudl there. Everything has a
stocking level and since its its own self contained system a pond is
highly dependable on lots of things. Not so with a natural pond, Hell,
I do not know why I am even tryng to explain this simple thing to you
as your only going to argue the point anyhow and its of no value to
you in learning the facts anyhow since yur not really interested in
learning as much as you are in arguing.
On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 22:32:05 -0600, Zëbulon
wrote:


"~ janj" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 17:45:49 -0600, Tristan
wrote:

Ah so I did, but I also keep my koin na natural mud pond which is full
of natural stuff koi are meant to eat as well not kept in a liner or
preform pond, so ther eis a difference I do belive and I think the
others here will agree with me.
I feed catfish food, no trout as its not available here, but a 50
pound bag will last me a year or more as i use it only to throw a
small a maount out to entice the fish to come u p so I can have a look
see as to how they are all doing. Its called responsive feeding., Its
not meant to be nutritional in any way. It was a method recomeded to
me by the fisheries and biology department of The U of Florida. Do
you know of a better way? The entire object is get em up to look at,
not feed em enough to make em dependant or to give em any real
nourishment. Cheerios and other cereals was also on that list of
suggested responsive food stuff.

And I have no problem what so ever with that. I have no problem with Carol
feeding her fish whatever she wants or can afford. But, imho, people
shouldn't feed low quality food (especially non-fish food) to fish in a
liner pond with little to no natural food sources.

Why assume there are no natural food sources in a liner pond? Like most
ponders I have a load of plants and there's mulm on the bottom. They koi
feast on any insects that get close enough, worms I saw fall in with my own
eyes, worms I throw in, algae from the liner and plant pots, frog eggs and
taddies etc. I do not have those crystal clear sterile ponds some of you
have. I never said I did over the years.

Now to add something to this (and I probably shouldn't) but I have seen it
happen that fish fed high-corn foods (taste like candy) will put their
nose
at some of the higher quality feeds. Sometimes one has to buy small
containers of high quality food and see which the fish will like before
investing in the eco-bag-size. ~ jan

--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 02:02:44 GMT, ~ janj wrote:

On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 09:17:53 -0600, Tristan
wrote:

Arbitrarily buying a bag of "___________" and feeding it to anyhtng is
sure a scientific study for sure. No control no documentation to base
so called findings on, and its all speculation. More to saying the
fish look good and got fat and grew fast...certainly more to it than
that........Your methods of running a test is not even close to being
substantial in any findings you think you have discovered......You
just saved somne moeny is all you did and the fish more than likely
gained nothing but a full belly of junk food.


Now this is a good example moderators. Would we allow this post?

That's hard to say since Roy will disagree with anything I post here. There
are plenty of pictures of my fish on my website. Do they look like sick
balloons? If they were so bad off on such poor food why do they look so
healthy and lay eggs well into summer? Take another look at them on my
site. :-) I get no returns and no complaints form those who have bought
fish from me these past 5 years. :-)))

Yea right, this statement just goes to show that there are suckers
born every minute without a clue as to how to actually select decent
fish, and what to look for. If it was not true than places like Petco
and Petsmart would not exist since they seemto be able to sellfish
with ich and other fugla diseases, so why should Carol not be able to
slide in amaong all those idiots looking for a "Cheap" koi or GF as
well....A cheap koi is, well just that CHEAP.....then agaiun some
folks do not need a top line of fish either, but there is always a
better place to buy than a back yard breeder out to save a buck or
petco.


It could be consider inflammatory, yet it doesn't call anyone any nasty
names. I'd have to pass it, but than would *I*, as a moderator, be
considered bias because the above poster just happens to agree with
me? ~ jan

As I recall he once agreed with me that the expensive feeds were not
necessary, but I don't think I have it archived. Ok,... then what would you
do with my message pointing out how healthy my fish were on the cheaper
foods? How overrun with fry we are most of the time? Or how flawed so much
of the research is these days?
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

All of those would have gone thru on my watch, no matter how repetitious I
thought they were. ~ jan



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

On 11 Dec 2006 07:15:15 GMT, wrote:

I'm glad I don't archive this 'stuff'!

I wasn't going to give it more printed space, especially since it contained
other peoples names who wouldn't appreciate it. But it is nice to have when
someone turns a good discussion into an argument. One can always google and
find stuff. ;-) ~ jan

"~ janj" wrote in message
...

Therein you did what you claimed you didn't in sentence marked
~ jan
==============
The post below is what I found for 12/3. If you mean my comment that you
stirred the pot jan, that's another post altogether. is this new reader
missing messages also?

Köi-Lö" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
Hi and best wishes to all true rec.ponders:

The moderators are very hard at work discussing all of the
general issues involved in this matter, and putting them together for
the new RFD.
There is a genuine sense of teamwork, commitment, openness and
fairness in their effort.
If you are a true rec.ponder, I am sure you will be pleased
when the RFD comes out.
===================
Thanks for keeping us updated.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*


--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

wrote in message
...
~ janj wrote:
I'm not going to keep this debate going, first it was fish food, then
research, next up came censorship where you turn the whole subject upside
down, sheesh what next? I guess your goal must be to confuse the bejezuz
out of whomever you're debating to win. Sheesh.

I wouldn't say your name with the same breath I would his.... no
worry there. ;-)

Ah, you did. Want me to go back and find the post? ~ jan

Go for it! If you ever called me a whore or idiot I didn't see the
post.......

I didn't say you said I called you those. Don't make things more
complicated than they are by twisting them. Look at sentence with
above.

Go to subject:
Attn: true rec.ponders -brief update for 12-3 -from george
Dated 12/4 2:56pm

Therein you did what you claimed you didn't in sentence marked

I'm glad I don't archive this 'stuff'!
=======================
I can't find any post accusing her of calling me vile names! I did post
one speaking in general terms but people on this group are at the point of
taking everything personal.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*







--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"~ janj" wrote in message
...
On 11 Dec 2006 07:15:15 GMT, wrote:

I'm glad I don't archive this 'stuff'!

I wasn't going to give it more printed space, especially since it
contained
other peoples names who wouldn't appreciate it. But it is nice to have
when
someone turns a good discussion into an argument. One can always google
and
find stuff. ;-) ~ jan
========================
Not to mention one person's discussion is another person's argument. :-)
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*





--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...
Gail Futoran wrote:


Gill, I'm not sure why you appear to be harping on that last point. I
and others have said repeatedly the only thing we care about in a
moderated newsgroup is that posts be on topic, reasonably off topic, no
flames, no abuse, no irrelevant cross-posting.

I've read your posts here and in several of the aquaria newsgroups. You
are a poster I am comfortable reading and responding to because you've
never flamed me or done anything else that caused me to distrust you.

What does it matter whether or not you have a pond? It doesn't matter to
me, it doesn't matter to rec.ponders I've read over the years.

Gail
Thanks Gail....I guess it is because some of have been posting that those
without actual ponds have no right to join in these discussions....and I
guess now the point has been made....
============================
No one said they didn't have a RIGHT to join in the discussions. I saw no
such posts Gill. Even those who helped destroy this group have the RIGHT to
their opinions, as others have a right to theirs. Must everyone think, feel
and believe the same on rec.ponds?
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*








--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com