Tom L. La Bron wrote:

There are three things to keeping your fish health, and
they are 1. Clean water, 2. Clear Water and last but
not least 3. Clean water. Concentrate on keeping your
fish's environment pristine clean and the rest will
take care of itself.

I didn't even notice this the first time through. I believe there's a typo
in (2), Tom . Clean water is good, but clear water is for Koi nuts :-)
--
derek

Tom L. La Bron wrote:

There are three things to keeping your fish health, and
they are 1. Clean water, 2. Clear Water and last but
not least 3. Clean water. Concentrate on keeping your
fish's environment pristine clean and the rest will
take care of itself.

I didn't even notice this the first time through. I believe there's a typo
in (2), Tom . Clean water is good, but clear water is for Koi nuts :-)
--
derek

wrote:

what costs? Ingrid

Derek Broughton wrote:
because
I'm unconvinced the benefits outweigh the costs.

That certainly seems to have been adequately discussed. Salt may be
responsible for creating superbugs. Salt is definitely an irritant to
fish. Salt is generally not good for plants.

You can argue that at these levels none of these things are a problem. I
don't even know whether or not that would be true, or if anyone can prove
it, but that's not the problem. I lost count of the number of people who
have posted here because they've screwed up the amount of salt.

In the 30+ years I've been keeping fish, salt has _always_ been touted as a
panacea. It's certainly good as part of a treatment for sick fish, but I
remain unconvinced that _anything_ unnatural should be used for 24/7
treatment of problems that don't exist, whether it be prophylactic use of
salt in fish or antibiotics in livestock. As Tom (with whom I've probably
disagreed more than most people here) said, the priority is _clean_ water.
If you take care of that, the rest pretty well takes care of itself.
--
derek

wrote:

what costs? Ingrid

Derek Broughton wrote:
because
I'm unconvinced the benefits outweigh the costs.

That certainly seems to have been adequately discussed. Salt may be
responsible for creating superbugs. Salt is definitely an irritant to
fish. Salt is generally not good for plants.

You can argue that at these levels none of these things are a problem. I
don't even know whether or not that would be true, or if anyone can prove
it, but that's not the problem. I lost count of the number of people who
have posted here because they've screwed up the amount of salt.

In the 30+ years I've been keeping fish, salt has _always_ been touted as a
panacea. It's certainly good as part of a treatment for sick fish, but I
remain unconvinced that _anything_ unnatural should be used for 24/7
treatment of problems that don't exist, whether it be prophylactic use of
salt in fish or antibiotics in livestock. As Tom (with whom I've probably
disagreed more than most people here) said, the priority is _clean_ water.
If you take care of that, the rest pretty well takes care of itself.
--
derek

clear water is for Koi nuts :-)

Who you calling nuts, big boy? Those are fighting words! Now koi kichi I
can live with. ;o) ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

clear water is for Koi nuts :-)

Who you calling nuts, big boy? Those are fighting words! Now koi kichi I
can live with. ;o) ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

clear water is for Koi nuts :-)

Who you calling nuts, big boy? Those are fighting words! Now koi kichi I
can live with. ;o) ~ jan

oops, sorry. It was just a poor translation :-)

Seriously, though, after the first time my koi disappeared at the bottom of
the pond when the heron came, I was quite happy that the water was green
enough that you could only see them to a depth of two feet.
--
derek

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

clear water is for Koi nuts :-)

Who you calling nuts, big boy? Those are fighting words! Now koi kichi I
can live with. ;o) ~ jan

oops, sorry. It was just a poor translation :-)

Seriously, though, after the first time my koi disappeared at the bottom of
the pond when the heron came, I was quite happy that the water was green
enough that you could only see them to a depth of two feet.
--
derek

salt doesnt "create" super bugs. it is not mutagenic.
an increase in salt resistant parasites may arise by natural selection when using
salt. that is, salt will kill off those parasites lacking the genetics to withstand
salt leaving the resistant ones to reproduce and populate the fish.
almost all fish breeders use salt OR the water they raise their fish in is naturally
salty.
fish that come out of most ponds are carriers of a few of each of the common kinds of
parasites (the reason we quarantine)
fish raised in salted water carry parasites that are salt resistant.
people dont know if their fish are carriers of salt resistant parasites in any case
so using salt to treat parasites may be pointless.
similarly, there is absolutely no evidence that the salt resistant parasites on fish
"revert" to salt sensitive in unsalted water.
OTOH,
low levels of salt stimulate slime coat turnover. parasites reside in and on the
slime coat. in addition to slime, fish produce secretory antibodies and other
anti-microbial molecules which are secreted with the slime coat. increasing the
production and turn over of slime coat means more antibodies and anti-microbial
molecules available to attach and neutralize parasites. this is the basis of host
control of parasites.
I have never had a problem with my plants and the low level of salt I use.
There is a simple pond test kit for salt which is as easy to use and read as one for
ammonia. It seems the "screw ups" are more likely to occur when people use salt as
"treatment" rather than low levels of salt. I test salt twice a year, spring and
fall.

I think of slime coat turnover as the fish equivalent of humans using soap to wash
their hands. it removes and neutralizes some bacteria. It doesnt really get rid of
all the bacteria, but significantly reduces their numbers. unlike humans, fish swim
in their own feces which makes a robust slime coat even more important.

salt is nothing like antibiotics. prophylactic use of antibiotics in livestock is
not to fight disease, it is used to put on weight in farm animals. and various
other non-antibiotic "salts" are used in livestock to knock down parasite levels.
things like diatomaceous earth. http://home.aol.com/keninga/deagri.htm I am sure
non-farm people hear about long time common remedies for livestock.

The reason I use salt is that both long time koi breeders like Brett and Price who
raised the koi I own use salt in their ponds, and my friend Jo Ann, the leading
fancy Goldfish expert in the US on care, diseases and treatments recommends low level
salt in aquariums. These are not hobby breeders or arm chair experts. These are
people who made/make their living from selling the fish. And especially when they
been successful for a number of years, these are the people I listen to.

Ingrid


Derek Broughton wrote:
Salt may be responsible for creating superbugs.
Salt is definitely an irritant to fish.
Salt is generally not good for plants.

I lost count of the number of people who
have posted here because they've screwed up the amount of salt.

In the 30+ years I've been keeping fish, salt has _always_ been touted as a
panacea. It's certainly good as part of a treatment for sick fish, but I
remain unconvinced that _anything_ unnatural should be used for 24/7
treatment of problems that don't exist, whether it be prophylactic use of
salt in fish or antibiotics in livestock.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

wrote:

salt doesnt "create" super bugs. it is not mutagenic.

That's just sophistry. Antibiotics don't create superbugs either. However,
if you have something that kills off 50% of all the bugs, natural selection
pretty soon leaves you with only bugs that aren't affected by that
substance.

OTOH,
low levels of salt stimulate slime coat turnover. parasites reside in and
on the
slime coat. in addition to slime, fish produce secretory antibodies and

Parasites _on_ the slime coat are not an issue in any sense. Parasites _in_
the slime coat are not serious. Slime coats exist, at least in part, to
prevent parasites actually reaching the fish. Parasites in & on the slime
coat are just evidence that it is doing its job.

I think of slime coat turnover as the fish equivalent of humans using soap
to wash
their hands. it removes and neutralizes some bacteria. It doesnt really
get rid of
all the bacteria, but significantly reduces their numbers.

And these days, doctors are saying that soap is irrelevant in the act of
hand-washing. Rather than worry about what type of soap to use, they say,
just make sure you rinse your hands for 30 seconds under the warmest water
you can stand. There are parasites in our epidermis too, but nobody
suggests we should wash our hands with jalpeno peppers to stimulate
epidermal turnover (it would work, though...).

unlike humans,
fish swim in their own feces which makes a robust slime coat even more
important.

And a good reason for not irritating it.

salt is nothing like antibiotics. prophylactic use of antibiotics in

Well, there's sufficient evidence in my mind to demonstrate that it _is_.

livestock is
not to fight disease, it is used to put on weight in farm animals. and
various other non-antibiotic

You should know better. Antibiotics do not in themselves increase weight.
The aim is to prevent the animal getting sick and _not_ put on weight.

The reason I use salt is that both long time koi breeders like Brett and
Price who
raised the koi I own use salt in their ponds, and my friend Jo Ann, the
leading fancy Goldfish expert in the US on care, diseases and treatments
recommends low level
salt in aquariums. These are not hobby breeders or arm chair experts.

I know, and I respect, their opinions. Brett, in particular, raises huge
numbers of fish - but raising fish on a farm and keeping a half-dozen in
your pond are vastly different tasks. I will use salt for treatment, but
not for prophylaxis.
--
derek

wrote:

salt doesnt "create" super bugs. it is not mutagenic.

That's just sophistry. Antibiotics don't create superbugs either. However,
if you have something that kills off 50% of all the bugs, natural selection
pretty soon leaves you with only bugs that aren't affected by that
substance.

OTOH,
low levels of salt stimulate slime coat turnover. parasites reside in and
on the
slime coat. in addition to slime, fish produce secretory antibodies and

Parasites _on_ the slime coat are not an issue in any sense. Parasites _in_
the slime coat are not serious. Slime coats exist, at least in part, to
prevent parasites actually reaching the fish. Parasites in & on the slime
coat are just evidence that it is doing its job.

I think of slime coat turnover as the fish equivalent of humans using soap
to wash
their hands. it removes and neutralizes some bacteria. It doesnt really
get rid of
all the bacteria, but significantly reduces their numbers.

And these days, doctors are saying that soap is irrelevant in the act of
hand-washing. Rather than worry about what type of soap to use, they say,
just make sure you rinse your hands for 30 seconds under the warmest water
you can stand. There are parasites in our epidermis too, but nobody
suggests we should wash our hands with jalpeno peppers to stimulate
epidermal turnover (it would work, though...).

unlike humans,
fish swim in their own feces which makes a robust slime coat even more
important.

And a good reason for not irritating it.

salt is nothing like antibiotics. prophylactic use of antibiotics in

Well, there's sufficient evidence in my mind to demonstrate that it _is_.

livestock is
not to fight disease, it is used to put on weight in farm animals. and
various other non-antibiotic

You should know better. Antibiotics do not in themselves increase weight.
The aim is to prevent the animal getting sick and _not_ put on weight.

The reason I use salt is that both long time koi breeders like Brett and
Price who
raised the koi I own use salt in their ponds, and my friend Jo Ann, the
leading fancy Goldfish expert in the US on care, diseases and treatments
recommends low level
salt in aquariums. These are not hobby breeders or arm chair experts.

I know, and I respect, their opinions. Brett, in particular, raises huge
numbers of fish - but raising fish on a farm and keeping a half-dozen in
your pond are vastly different tasks. I will use salt for treatment, but
not for prophylaxis.
--
derek

It isnt sophistry, it is being scientifically factual, no extra charge.

The reason there are "bubble boys" (children that cannot leave a sterile environment)
is that no amount of antibiotics will actually kill off every single bacteria, so
children born with SCIDS, severe combined immune deficiency cannot recover from
disease no matter how many meds they take because there are ALWAYS bugs that are
immune in every infection. The purpose of anti-microbials is to kill or cripple most
of microbes and get them down to a level where it is possible for the immune system
to get the rest under control.

A healthy fish will have a small number of most parasites under the slime coat. These
parasite are challenging/stimulating the immune system and keeping immunity high.
Lose the parasites and fish lose immunity to them. Fish dont have long term immune
memory like mammals and birds. This is one reason I advocate "closed tanks" in which
new fish are never added when the current residents have been disease free for more
than 6 months to a year.

there are several ways to keep the level of the cooties down so the slime coat and
anti-microbials are effective.

first and foremost is to prevent anything from bringing in high levels of cooties,
like birds pooping in the water, new unquarantined fish, etc.
healthy water quality because fish are always knocking their slime coat off, mine do
this pile up thing for food they think they can smell in a corner of my pond, or pile
up on each other when I toss their food into the pond. then there is spawning in
spring, jumping or rubbing against pots in the pond, etc. with clean water and
healthy fish there just arent the numbers of cooties to get to the epidermis.

Healthy water quality so stress does not take the immune system down in the fish
cause when this happens slime coat thickens, it doesnt turn over properly or contain
sufficient anti-microbials, and then the cooties on and in the fish can explode out
of control.

good high quality food that provides the proper nutrition with low residue (that
fouls the water). the immune system is highly dependent on adequate protein and
energy since immune cells are amount those turn over the fastest in the body.

clean water, ideal year round steady temps and water quality and healthy fish with no
stress are ideal. few of us have ponds like that. In addition to less than ideal
water quality other causes of stress include overstocking, seasonal temperature
fluctuation, spawning. All of these slow the turn over of the slime coat or limit
the amount of anti-microbials being produced.

Low levels of salt helps to make up for the deficits in keeping fish in ponds. That
is why most breeders use salt.

Soap solvates oils and removes microbe laden dirt off the hands, something hot water
wont do. I am willing to bet that hospitals and food services are not just going to
tell their staff to give their hands a good rinse before handling patients or food in
a restaurant.

We have dry epidermis which in and of itself is protective. Wet epidermis, like
lining the guts is more like fish epidermis (which is protected by slime and an outer
epidermis). And yes, it is not coincidence that people who live in parasite thriving
conditions like the tropics all eat hot food like peppers which can knock down the
parasite load. Garlic too is anti-microbial. Maybe they should "save" their
jalapeno and garlic for when they get sick.

The level of antibiotics in animal feed has never been high enough to knock down
infectious agents. http://www.engormix.com/e_articles_d...ttle.asp?ID=69
"Antibiotics have been widely used in the livestock and poultry industries since
their discovery more than 50 years ago. They represent an extremely important tool in
the efficient production of animal products such as milk, meat and eggs. At
sub-therapeutic levels in diets, antibiotics improve growth rate and efficiency of
feed utilization (see Table 1), reduce mortality and morbidity and improve
reproductive performance (see Table 2). At high levels (prophylaxis and therapeutic)
antibiotics help to prevent disease in exposed animals and to treat diseases
(Cromwell, 1999)."
notice the term sub-therapeutic.

And as a viral immunologist/microbiologist I will tell everyone that our greatest
threat is not the antibiotics being used by farmers who are limited to a small number
that are already ineffective for humans. Our greatest threat is population
explosions and poverty. People living in stressful conditions without adequate
nutrition, without health care are the breeding grounds for the evolution of highly
pathogenic strains of everything, including those resistant to anti-bacterial and
anti-viral drugs. It is not surprising that multiple drug resistant TB, now
resistant to ALL antibiotics, originated in the jails in Russia where men where
warehoused in abysmal conditions. Drugs cannot cure people who dont have an adequate
immune system.

Ingrid


Derek Broughton wrote:
That's just sophistry. Antibiotics don't create superbugs either. However,
if you have something that kills off 50% of all the bugs, natural selection
pretty soon leaves you with only bugs that aren't affected by that
substance.

Parasites _on_ the slime coat are not an issue in any sense. Parasites _in_
the slime coat are not serious. Slime coats exist, at least in part, to
prevent parasites actually reaching the fish. Parasites in & on the slime
coat are just evidence that it is doing its job.

And these days, doctors are saying that soap is irrelevant in the act of
hand-washing. Rather than worry about what type of soap to use, they say,
just make sure you rinse your hands for 30 seconds under the warmest water
you can stand. There are parasites in our epidermis too, but nobody
suggests we should wash our hands with jalpeno peppers to stimulate
epidermal turnover (it would work, though...).

You should know better. Antibiotics do not in themselves increase weight.
The aim is to prevent the animal getting sick and _not_ put on weight.

I know, and I respect, their opinions. Brett, in particular, raises huge
numbers of fish - but raising fish on a farm and keeping a half-dozen in
your pond are vastly different tasks. I will use salt for treatment, but
not for prophylaxis.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Ingrid,

You are blowing it out the other end by saying that
Brett uses salt in this ponds. If you knew anything
about his facility you would know that he has no
choice, in that, the water he uses has a high salt
content. Where he has his farm all the water has a
high salinity.

And by the way, Jo Ann is not a breeder either and
never has been, which you remark insinuates, she was
just a high end LFS owner. The only breeding she ever
saw, was like you, by accident in her ponds by the will
of nature.

So get your story straight.

In addition, all real breeders of Goldfish don't put
salt in their ponds unless they are trying to get rid
of a parasite. In addition, the fish that come from
China and Japan are not raised or bred in water with
low levels of salt. So I guess you don't think that
they don't what they are doing either.

Tom L.L.
----------------------------------------
wrote:

The reason I use salt is that both long time koi breeders like Brett and Price who
raised the koi I own use salt in their ponds, and my friend Jo Ann, the leading
fancy Goldfish expert in the US on care, diseases and treatments recommends low level
salt in aquariums. These are not hobby breeders or arm chair experts. These are
people who made/make their living from selling the fish. And especially when they
been successful for a number of years, these are the people I listen to.

Ingrid

Ingrid,

You are blowing it out the other end by saying that
Brett uses salt in this ponds. If you knew anything
about his facility you would know that he has no
choice, in that, the water he uses has a high salt
content. Where he has his farm all the water has a
high salinity.

And by the way, Jo Ann is not a breeder either and
never has been, which you remark insinuates, she was
just a high end LFS owner. The only breeding she ever
saw, was like you, by accident in her ponds by the will
of nature.

So get your story straight.

In addition, all real breeders of Goldfish don't put
salt in their ponds unless they are trying to get rid
of a parasite. In addition, the fish that come from
China and Japan are not raised or bred in water with
low levels of salt. So I guess you don't think that
they don't what they are doing either.

Tom L.L.
----------------------------------------
wrote:

The reason I use salt is that both long time koi breeders like Brett and Price who
raised the koi I own use salt in their ponds, and my friend Jo Ann, the leading
fancy Goldfish expert in the US on care, diseases and treatments recommends low level
salt in aquariums. These are not hobby breeders or arm chair experts. These are
people who made/make their living from selling the fish. And especially when they
been successful for a number of years, these are the people I listen to.

Ingrid

wrote:

It isnt sophistry, it is being scientifically factual, no extra charge.

It's pure sophistry when you claim that salt doesn't create superbugs
because it isn't mutagenic. Another description is "straw-man" argument,
since I never suggested it _was_ mutagenic. Now if you want to argue that
the science behind the allegations that use of salt is creating
salt-resistant bugs is faulty, go right ahead. You could be right, but I
still haven't seen enough good science to convince me that I (or my fish)
will benefit from constant use of salt.

"Antibiotics ... represent an extremely
important tool in the efficient production of animal products such as
milk, meat and eggs. At sub-therapeutic levels in diets, antibiotics
....
1999)." notice the term sub-therapeutic.

And just what scientific principle explains how they put on weight if it is
_not_ therapeutic? Anyway, sub-therapeutic treatment (regardless of
whether poverty is also a vital component and, remember, South African
President Mbeke nearly got crucified for saying the same of AIDS) is a
proven cause of antibiotic resistance.
--
derek