alright Gregory Ingrid this has been an interesting read but enough
already
you have both proved your point,

Im sure if you wanted you could prove that salt helps cure HIV


John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from bad
judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

Ingrid:
In deference to John, (and I am sure others who have just not come forward),
I will not reply (with counter information to your postings on 7/1/03) to
keep this debate going, on the NG.
I would however like to continue our debate privately, (via email), as I
would think we should be able to reach consensus somewhere in our antibody
discussions.
Do you feel so inclined? Let me know.
Greg


"John Rutz" wrote in message
...
alright Gregory Ingrid this has been an interesting read but enough
already
you have both proved your point,

Im sure if you wanted you could prove that salt helps cure HIV


John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from bad
judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

ever been to

http://www.darwinawards.com/


these are definite idiots! :-D

mad
--
Have you ever imagined a world without
hypothetical questions?

From:
Newsgroups: rec.ponds
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:44:35 GMT
Subject: salt

There are complete idiots out there in the world. People who do the most
assinine things on earth and sooner or later they end up in some emergency
room as a result of their total lack of regard of written instructions or any
number of cautions.



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

very different site!
Thanks for the laugh!
Greg


"mad" wrote in message
...
ever been to

http://www.darwinawards.com/


these are definite idiots! :-D

mad
--
Have you ever imagined a world without
hypothetical questions?

From:
Newsgroups: rec.ponds
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:44:35 GMT
Subject: salt

There are complete idiots out there in the world. People who do the
most
assinine things on earth and sooner or later they end up in some
emergency
room as a result of their total lack of regard of written instructions
or any
number of cautions.



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

i shake my head in wonder and amazement when i read this stuff.
mad
--
"I read somewhere that 77% of all the mentally ill
live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the
23% who are apparently doing quite well for themselves."
Jerry Garcia

From: "Gregory Young"
Newsgroups: rec.ponds
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 01:39:01 GMT
Subject: salt

very different site!
Thanks for the laugh!
Greg


"mad" wrote in message
...
ever been to

http://www.darwinawards.com/


these are definite idiots! :-D

mad
--
Have you ever imagined a world without
hypothetical questions?

From:
Newsgroups: rec.ponds
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:44:35 GMT
Subject: salt

There are complete idiots out there in the world. People who do the
most
assinine things on earth and sooner or later they end up in some
emergency
room as a result of their total lack of regard of written instructions
or any
number of cautions.



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----





-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

IMHO, I've rather enjoyed the salty conversation between Ingrid & Greg. For
the most part there wasn't any cheap shots or nastiness. Granted much of
the material was going over my head ZOOM but I think I was sortta
following along, maybe even learning something.

I have yet to see either one "make a point". John, I challenge you to sum
up their points for me, since I appeared to have missed them. ;o) ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
IMHO, I've rather enjoyed the salty conversation between Ingrid & Greg. For
the most part there wasn't any cheap shots or nastiness. Granted much of
the material was going over my head ZOOM but I think I was sortta
following along, maybe even learning something.

I have yet to see either one "make a point". John, I challenge you to sum
up their points for me, since I appeared to have missed them. ;o) ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website


--
Ok i will try to translate allt hat




John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from bad
judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

that is who I was referring to... LOL.

mad wrote:

ever been to

http://www.darwinawards.com/


these are definite idiots! :-D

mad



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

these people always amaze me.
mad
--
Dogs believe they are human. Cats believe they are God.
Anonymous

From:
Newsgroups: rec.ponds
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 21:22:02 GMT
Subject: salt

that is who I was referring to... LOL.

mad wrote:

ever been to

http://www.darwinawards.com/


these are definite idiots! :-D

mad



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

There are almost no scientific articles detailing studies done on pet fish in itty
bitty ponds, damned few on koi and goldfish raised in larger ponds for pets. The
bulk of research is done on food fish. Most is applicable to "pet" fish with some
reservations.
I dont see any literature that disputes the cultural techniques and practices used
for thousands of years by the Chinese and Japanese. They developed these strains of
fish. They developed the techniques that are sound, economical and have stood the
test of time. They are still the major producers. These breeders of Koi and GF use
salt to prevent disease. The Chinese and Japanese have not traditionally given away
their "trade" secrets. However, people like Brett have gone to Japan to learn from
the masters and he has become an expert in koi breeding. Brett uses it because the
Japanese use it and it works. Jo Ann uses salt because she has imported thousands of
top quality Goldfish from the Chinese and they use it, her instructors in aquaculture
at the U of Florida recommend it and it works.
Brett http://www.brettsfishfarm.com/
Jo Ann http://users.megapathdsl.net/~solo/p...aracters.html,
http://hometown.aol.com/lazulifawn/page1.html

I accept a couple thousand years of experience raising fish in ponds as valid data.
I dont see any valid data showing that it is harmful. Plants are not killed by salt
levels at or under 0.1%. Demonstrating salt resistance in a few parasites doesnt
prove anything except there are salt resistant parasites, hell, the ocean is full of
them. The use of salt in ponds has less to do with treating parasites than with
supporting the electrolyte balance of fish and stimulating the slime coat which is
the first line of defense against parasites. Using salt as part of good general
cultural practices leads to vast reduction in ever needing to treat fish for parasite
infestations in the first place. This is why the Chinese and Japanese use it.
The idea of "saving" the use of salt for treatment supposes that the parasites
infesting the fish are not already salt resistant. It supposes that withdrawing salt
from the water is going to lead to a reversal to salt sensitive parasites. It also
supposes that high salt levels are the best treatment for parasite infestations. I
see no valid data to support any of these suppositions.
The demonstration that low levels of antibiotics fed to animals leads to bacterial
resistance doesnt work as a model system for salt and parasites. Antibiotics are
generally used to treat internal bacterial infections, not external parasite
infestations. Salt is present in every living thing to about the same concentration
(0.9%) unlike antibiotics that are only found in some species of bacteria and fungi.
No one has taken the time to invalidate the use of salt in ornamental fish either.
Medicine has a long history of using "what works" for centuries before a scientific
explanation is found. Physicians did not eschew use of aspirin until its mechanism
of action was found.
My definition of an expert includes learning and experience, but more important is
that it has been their source of lively hood and that they been successful at it for
a number of years. Live long, prosper, then publish. Publishing a book doesnt
qualify a person as an expert. There are many books out there full of misinformation
of the most egregious sort. A book written by an expert as defined above carries a
great deal of weight with me. A book written by a practicing scientist in the field
and used as a textbook in a university would be a close second. But as a scientist I
have a predilection for experts who are scientists and use proper scientific
methodology. Being and keeping current in the field is of course essential.
I dont consider myself an expert in this field either. When others say they really
know very little about the areas in which they are judged an expert I believe they
are truthfully assessing their abilities. When I tell people I am not an expert and
they dont believe me I assume they dont even have a good enough grasp of the field to
make a valid judgement.
I am rather surprised that you feel "that man often fails to improve on what nature
provides" since nature definitely provides a method of selection of the fittest for
all living things, something that medicine is committed to thwarting. We dont want
"nature" selecting against our beautiful but definitely unfit koi. There is very
little that is natural about a pond that is a closed system and overstocked with fish
bred for bright flashy coloring rather than a robust immune system, protective
coloration and reproductive success.
I really cannot assess the level of expertise of those running/teaching seminars. It
takes a little technical ability to teach people how to do a scrape and identify
common parasites. It takes some diagnostic ability to point out that a couple gyros
dont mean much and is not a reason to treat an entire pond. OTOH, it does take a
great deal of expertise to look at fish in a pond, know what the problem is and how
to fix it before checking the water parameters, catching the fish, doing the scrape
and identifying it in a microscope to confirm the diagnosis. How many sick fish and
sick ponds have the people been treating per month and for how many years?
OK. blew a few hours on this response that are really needed elsewhere.
Ingrid

"Gregory Young" wrote:
I have discussed prophylactic salt with Rod, and disagree with him
the data he quoted was from studies done on aquaculture of
catfish
If Rod/anyone else showsvalidated data
why I feel it is not a good practice, based on proven fact
(impact on plants, impact on disease resistance).
Again there is a debate, as no one has taken the time/effort to
scientfically validate this use of salt in ornamental fish.
How do you define expert
Those "experts" I have gotten to know professionally, and otherwise, who are
forthwith, will be the first to tell you how little they really know about
the areas in which they are judged as expert.
One thing I havefound is that man often fails to improve on what nature provides
Are KHAs then considered experts, based on their training?
Greg


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

wrote in message
...
I have already committed to ending our debate in this NG, and asked that we
go private, but it would seem you would rather not. That's ok.
I will limit the comments in my response to not antagonize general readers,
and will endeavor to keep things straightforward.

I dont see any literature that disputes the cultural techniques and
practices used
for thousands of years by the Chinese and Japanese. They developed these
strains of
fish. They developed the techniques that are sound, economical and have
stood the
test of time. They are still the major producers.

I fully agree.

These breeders of Koi and GF use
salt to prevent disease. The Chinese and Japanese have not traditionally
given away
their "trade" secrets. However, people like Brett have gone to Japan to
learn from
the masters and he has become an expert in koi breeding. Brett uses it
because the
Japanese use it and it works. Jo Ann uses salt because she has imported
thousands of
top quality Goldfish from the Chinese and they use it, her instructors in
aquaculture
at the U of Florida recommend it and it works.

Here we differ. I don't doubt the abilities/knowledge of either of the 2
individuals you mention, but neither can I attest to their
knowledge/abilities, as I know neither.

I do agree that the Japanese have used salt (BTW in higher levels, like .3%
or even more) in their farm ponds to raise Koi, but when interviewed by US
growers, they reported it was to keep down the algal growth, which deprives
their fish of needed oyxgen, esp. at night. I have directly heard that at
conventions, and it makes sense to me. I agree, I don't think they did any
studies on it.

One source for this statement (if you wish to check on its validity) comes
directly from Mr. Hisashi Hirasawa of the Marudo Koi Farm in Japan. His farm
produces about primarily Showas, Sanke, and Kohakus and he is very well
known in Koi circles, as most of the grand champion Showas comes from his
farm!

His farm is certainly not the only Koi producing farm in Japan, but
certainly one of the most respected.

Additionally, this fact can be corroborated by Mr. Mark Curtis, formerly of
Picovs in Ontario. He is one of the few "outsiders" invited yearly to go
inside the farms in Japan, and make his selections (for the following year).
I have hed Mark down here to judge our Koi show. (BTW our last show was this
past weekend. You'll never guess what one of topics of the discussions was..
salt)

I accept a couple thousand years of experience raising fish in ponds as
valid data.
I dont see any valid data showing that it is harmful. Plants are not
killed by salt
levels at or under 0.1%.

True, but waiting to see the death of anything is a late finding. I am not
aware of any studies on salt's impact on health of the plants as far as
blooming, (plant) disease resistance, etc.
I do remember seeing a plant study that I believe Rod referenced, that
showed water lettuce, and ? started to die at levels just about .1% OTOH,
lilies, lotuses, marginals, etc as I recall did not die off below .3%, but I
couldn't find the study tonight to give you any specifics...

Demonstrating salt resistance in a few parasites doesnt
prove anything except there are salt resistant parasites, hell, the ocean
is full of
them.

Yes, but that still doesn't address the relatively recent finding of salt
tolerant (resistant) Trich seen in west Coast Koi dealers (which they did
not see before mid 1990s), who import from Japan, where the levels of salt,
as you point out, are high (relatively).

The use of salt in ponds has less to do with treating parasites than with
supporting the electrolyte balance of fish and stimulating the slime coat
which is
the first line of defense against parasites. Using salt as part of good
general
cultural practices leads to vast reduction in ever needing to treat fish
for parasite
infestations in the first place.

The only problem I have with that staement is that I know many, many folks
who have quite successfully maintained ponds with ornamental fish as long,
or longer than I have, and they have never routinely salted either. They
have had no parasitic problems (nor have I, at least to date). I think the
issue, as you have stated in previous posts is primarily maintaining
excellent water quality, which I can certainly attest doesn't require
supplemental chemicals (salt included here).

This is why the Chinese and Japanese use it.
The idea of "saving" the use of salt for treatment supposes that the
parasites
infesting the fish are not already salt resistant. It supposes that
withdrawing salt
from the water is going to lead to a reversal to salt sensitive parasites.
It also
supposes that high salt levels are the best treatment for parasite
infestations. I
see no valid data to support any of these suppositions.

Salt has been shown to be an excellent, relatively benign (compared to other
means) treatment for several commonly found parasites. There are numerous
resources to refer to on that.

The demonstration that low levels of antibiotics fed to animals leads to
bacterial
resistance doesnt work as a model system for salt and parasites.

I did not mean to say it did. There is organism resistance to many chemicals
that can occur. ie the DDT resistant ants (while DDT was on the market for
you younger folks). Now I don't believe they "became" resistant, I simply
believe there is a natural rsistance to just about every substance that is
found in certain members of most species. Some tolerate higher level of a
chemical, etc. than others. This is different than antibiotic
resistance,which can be passed from bacterium to bacterium.

But it stands to reason that is you continuously use a substance
(antibiotics included) in an environment that would be toxic to many of the
species in question, only the naturally occuring resistant members of that
species can continue to survive and reproduce, hence a "natural" selection
for resistant organisms. I am certainly not talking plasmid, etc transfers,
I am talking nonsusceptible (or at least less susceptible) hosts.


Antibiotics are
generally used to treat internal bacterial infections, not external
parasite
infestations.

I agree, I never said otherwise.

Salt is present in every living thing to about the same concentration
(0.9%) unlike antibiotics that are only found in some species of bacteria
and fungi.
No one has taken the time to invalidate the use of salt in ornamental fish
either.
Medicine has a long history of using "what works" for centuries before a
scientific
explanation is found. Physicians did not eschew use of aspirin until its
mechanism
of action was found.

Agree to that as well.

My definition of an expert includes learning and experience, but more
important is
that it has been their source of lively hood and that they been successful
at it for
a number of years. Live long, prosper, then publish. Publishing a book
doesnt
qualify a person as an expert. There are many books out there full of
misinformation
of the most egregious sort. A book written by an expert as defined above
carries a
great deal of weight with me. A book written by a practicing scientist in
the field
and used as a textbook in a university would be a close second. But as a
scientist I
have a predilection for experts who are scientists and use proper
scientific
methodology. Being and keeping current in the field is of course
essential.
I dont consider myself an expert in this field either. When others say
they really
know very little about the areas in which they are judged an expert I
believe they
are truthfully assessing their abilities. When I tell people I am not an
expert and
they dont believe me I assume they dont even have a good enough grasp of
the field to
make a valid judgement.


Sounds like we completely agree here too.

I am rather surprised that you feel "that man often fails to improve on
what nature
provides" since nature definitely provides a method of selection of the
fittest for
all living things, something that medicine is committed to thwarting.

In medicine we are committed to preserving life, which in my opinion is not
always the right thing to do. Some of the horrors I have seen, are
iatrogenically induced, by some of my colleagues going full steam ahead
without considering the quality of life. Go, go, go, using the latest
science to "save lives" without considering quality of life.

For example (and this may really get me in trouble.. I can see it coming,
but here goes), pneumonia used to be called God's gift to the stroke
patient, because it ended their suffering quickly in many cases.

Now we have much more to offer a stroke patient, but there are still those
whose life we can never restore to any functional level, those whose life we
make miserable by prolonging their suffering, those who's strokes are
completely nonrecoverable (which BTW with today's scans I can deduce even
early in the illness, often while they are still in the ED). One example
that comes to mind is the locked in stroke, the patient who is alert, but
can't move any of their extremities, can't speak, can't swallow, and often
can't breath on their own. So we put tubes in their trachea, their stomach,
their bladder, their veins, just to keep them going, but for what??

We have beat off the pneumonia, in many, like the above patient, only to
have them linger, sometimes for years, on ventillators and chronic care in
nursing facilities, prolonging their suffering, and depleting all their
family's financial resources....

The same can be said for those who are critically head injured, and I could
go on and on. The point is maybe we need to sit back and let nature end the
suffering.

Our bodies are amazing machines. We ofetn try to improve on nature, but in
the end, how often do we succeed? We often create unexpected new problems,
while trying to make these improvements. That is what I meant.

It is often more difficult to do nothing at all, than to jump in with the
latest remedy, whose outcome may not be what we desire..


We dont want
"nature" selecting against our beautiful but definitely unfit koi.

I would not agree that Koi coloration ties in at all with their fitness.
However, some of the GF morpholgical breeding certainly does (ie celestial
eyes, etc)

There is very
little that is natural about a pond that is a closed system and
overstocked with fish
bred for bright flashy coloring rather than a robust immune system,
protective
coloration and reproductive success.

I agree again!

I really cannot assess the level of expertise of those running/teaching
seminars. It
takes a little technical ability to teach people how to do a scrape and
identify
common parasites. It takes some diagnostic ability to point out that a
couple gyros
dont mean much and is not a reason to treat an entire pond. OTOH, it does
take a
great deal of expertise to look at fish in a pond, know what the problem
is and how
to fix it before checking the water parameters, catching the fish, doing
the scrape
and identifying it in a microscope to confirm the diagnosis.

I don't know how anyone could look at a pond, and diagnose the problem
without knowing the water quality parameters, at the very least, as so many
"infections" are actually ammonia/nitrite/pH/dissolved oxygen, etc. related.
Many of the symptoms (ie red streaked fins, flared gills, clamped fins,
listless fish, fish gasping for air, etc), are indicative of a number of
different problems.

I would think you at least should start with water quality parameters,
before "diagnosing" a problem.

How many sick fish and
sick ponds have the people been treating per month and for how many years?
OK. blew a few hours on this response that are really needed elsewhere.
Ingrid

You're right, we both have spent too much time on this.. sometimes I wonder
why.......

Later,
Greg

However, people like Brett have gone to Japan to

learn from

the masters and he has become an expert in koi breeding. Brett uses it

because the

Japanese use it and it works. Jo Ann uses salt because she has imported

thousands of

top quality Goldfish from the Chinese and they use it,


I copied this from a Japanese site
http://www.urban.ne.jp/home/koistaff/ikusei/eindex.html

Notice the comment on salt in the first part

REQUIREMENTS IN BREEDING


WATER

Fresh water only
KOIs can somehow live in salt water but it's not good in the long run.
Water with 1% or under of salt will not do harm to KOIs in the
sense of health.
Water quality
Must be within the range from pH6.2 to 8.5. pH6.6�`7.5 is the most
suitable
(in case of concreted pool and fish tank�j
Water temperature
Must be within the range from 5 to 35 C 12�`28C is the most suitable
At 25C, KOIs sharpen their appetite.
Do not feed when the water temperature is under 12C. It is assumed
that it's better to change
water temperature according to the seasons ( somehow higher in
summer and somehow lower in winter)
This is because KOIs have been created and developed in Japan where
there are four seasons.
Water hardness
Use water of under 150ppm.
Water of under 50ppm is preferable.
Soft water is defined to be under 50ppm.
Nitrate
Must be under 5.5. 2.0ppm or under is the most suitable
Dissolved oxygen
At least 5ppm is required.�@
As well water contains quite few or no oxygen, such water must be
aerated before being used.
Reference�@electric conductivity(ƒÊ‚r/)
Water of 450�`150(ƒÊ‚r/)is usually used.
Water shoud be poor in iron,namely under 0.1ppm.
Water under 0.05ppm in iron is ideal.

�yGenerally speaking, KOIs are easier to breed than tropical fish
or goldfish. But be careful to keep them away from diseases. �z



John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from bad
judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

As I promised I would not continue the dialog in this NG, so I won't respond
to the last postings.
John, I will address what you raised however. Here is some information you
may find very interesting:
One of the most prominent Japanese breeders of Koi, Mr. Hisashi Hirasawa of
Marudo koi farm (formerly at Dainichi), uses year round salt, as do many
others in Japan.
(BTW, his farm is famous for its Showa, Sanke and Kohakus).
He formerly worked at Dainichi, when they were winning the grand champ
Showas for multiple years running... He left there to start up his own
farm..
The reason for their salt use you may find interesting...
He stated that they use salt in their "mud ponds" (farm ponds), at .3% or in
some cases "a little more", .... to help retard the growth of algae.
Their ponds are for breeding Koi only, so they have no catfish, etc. They
don't grow underwater oxygenators (they wouldn't last long with koi....) His
expressed reason for algal control was the lack of dissolved oxygen at
night, (due to otherwise major algal overgrowth in the pond). His concern
centered around the possibility of poor initial growth/development in the
presence of low oxygen.
That is why he (and others in Japan) use salt year round .. algal control.
When asked directly, he stated it was not done "for disease".
These statements can be confirmed via Mark Curtis, who many of you know, was
formerly of Picovs in Toronto. Mark often judges our club's annual koi show.
At our show this year (held last weekend), David and Debby Hess were our
judges (super people by the way), not Mark, but nonetheless, I talked to
Mark about chronic salt, which turned out to be the subject of our dinner
discussion.
Mark is one of the few outsiders who is yearly invited to Japan, to actually
go into their breeders facilities, and pick out his fish for the following
season (they keep them a year).
Many are invited to Japan, for tours, but few outsiders get this far
"inside".
Mark, BTW, has a new business in supplying quality Koi in the Ontario area.
Thought you might find that interesting.
Happy ponding,
Greg


"John Rutz" wrote in message
...
However, people like Brett have gone to Japan to

learn from

the masters and he has become an expert in koi breeding. Brett uses it

because the

Japanese use it and it works. Jo Ann uses salt because she has imported

thousands of

top quality Goldfish from the Chinese and they use it,


I copied this from a Japanese site
http://www.urban.ne.jp/home/koistaff/ikusei/eindex.html

Notice the comment on salt in the first part

REQUIREMENTS IN BREEDING


WATER

Fresh water only
KOIs can somehow live in salt water but it's not good in the long
run.
Water with 1% or under of salt will not do harm to KOIs in the
sense of health.
Water quality
Must be within the range from pH6.2 to 8.5. pH6.6�`7.5 is the most
suitable
(in case of concreted pool and fish tank�j
Water temperature
Must be within the range from 5 to 35 C 12�`28C is the most suitable
At 25C, KOIs sharpen their appetite.
Do not feed when the water temperature is under 12C. It is assumed
that it's better to change
water temperature according to the seasons ( somehow higher in
summer and somehow lower in winter)
This is because KOIs have been created and developed in Japan where
there are four seasons.
Water hardness
Use water of under 150ppm.
Water of under 50ppm is preferable.
Soft water is defined to be under 50ppm.
Nitrate
Must be under 5.5. 2.0ppm or under is the most suitable
Dissolved oxygen
At least 5ppm is required.�@
As well water contains quite few or no oxygen, such water must be
aerated before being used.
Reference�@electric conductivity(ƒÊ‚r/)
Water of 450�`150(ƒÊ‚r/)is usually used.
Water shoud be poor in iron,namely under 0.1ppm.
Water under 0.05ppm in iron is ideal.

�yGenerally speaking, KOIs are easier to breed than tropical fish
or goldfish. But be careful to keep them away from diseases. �z



John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from bad
judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

Gregory Young wrote:
As I promised I would not continue the dialog in this NG, so I won't respond
to the last postings.
John, I will address what you raised however.

thanks for answring
my personal opinion is use salt at 0.1-0.2 if the fish are sick it does
seem to help with osmorgegulation and it wont hurt and can be diluted
out when the problem is over with
and it does help with algae control, but I sure dont think its a
recomended algae control unless you like the japanese have absolutly no
plants in the pond



John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from bad
judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

They are talking SALT WATER, as in
35 grams per liter or
0.077 lbs per liter or (100 gallons = 378 liters)
29 lbs salt per 100 gallons
we use 0.9lbs per 100 gallons which = 0.1%
the say WATER WITH 1% SALT WILL DO NO HARM.
that is 10 times HIGHER than recommended.
0.1% is going to help the fish, not hurt the plants

Gregory is stating they use 0.3% ALL THE TIME. Does it really matter if they use it
to control algae? The fact is, low levels of salt helps keep the koi healthy!!!

Ingrid

John Rutz wrote:
I copied this from a Japanese site
http://www.urban.ne.jp/home/koistaff/ikusei/eindex.html

Notice the comment on salt in the first part
Fresh water only
KOIs can somehow live in ---- salt water but it's not good in the long run.
Water with 1% or under of salt ---- will not do harm to KOIs in the
sense of health.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.