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#106
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look... this is my field and I teach this shit. I am tired of people saying that
antibiotics "cause" superbugs. they dont. the superbugs are THERE ALL THE TIME. to find resistant bugs all you have to do is do a water extraction of dirt and plate that out onto agar and drop antibiotic disks onto the plate. there are bacteria resistant to all the antibiotics. Most of the resistant bacteria are "free range" and dont normally infect humans. every time a person gets infected the bacteria replicates and is mutating NATURALLY and no antibiotic or anti viral medication on earth is going to kill 100% of all the bugs unless the medicine is used in such high concentration that it kills the host too. antibiotics and salt can only increase the population of superbugs by selection, but cannot "create" them. most of the time the superbugs are the result of exchange of DNA between different species of bacteria. I am not aware of anyone with data on why SUB therapeutic levels of antibiotics results in weight gain. It is just a well known fact. sorta like aspirin and quinine was used for thousands of years without knowing the mechanism of action. the use of antibiotics does not CAUSE antibiotic resistance, it can only increase the population of resistant bacteria in a person. So a person that doesnt take the full course of antibiotics may allow resistant bacteria to escape OR pass on resistant genes to other bacteria in the gut and from the gut shed into the environment. However, resistance genes can pass to other bacteria whether or not people are taking the antibiotics properly. we now have strains of bacteria popping up that are resistant to even the "last ditch" antibiotics and these antibiotics are NOT passed out like candy but use monitored extremely closely. No abuse but the resistant strains are there anyway. antibiotics used in sub therapeutics doses are not the ones used for therapeutic doses anymore. Ingrid Derek Broughton wrote: It's pure sophistry when you claim that salt doesn't create superbugs because it isn't mutagenic. Another description is "straw-man" argument, since I never suggested it _was_ mutagenic. Now if you want to argue that the science behind the allegations that use of salt is creating salt-resistant bugs is faulty, go right ahead. You could be right, but I still haven't seen enough good science to convince me that I (or my fish) will benefit from constant use of salt. And just what scientific principle explains how they put on weight if it is _not_ therapeutic? Anyway, sub-therapeutic treatment (regardless of whether poverty is also a vital component and, remember, South African President Mbeke nearly got crucified for saying the same of AIDS) is a proven cause of antibiotic resistance. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
#107
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look... this is my field and I teach this shit. I am tired of people saying that
antibiotics "cause" superbugs. they dont. the superbugs are THERE ALL THE TIME. to find resistant bugs all you have to do is do a water extraction of dirt and plate that out onto agar and drop antibiotic disks onto the plate. there are bacteria resistant to all the antibiotics. Most of the resistant bacteria are "free range" and dont normally infect humans. every time a person gets infected the bacteria replicates and is mutating NATURALLY and no antibiotic or anti viral medication on earth is going to kill 100% of all the bugs unless the medicine is used in such high concentration that it kills the host too. antibiotics and salt can only increase the population of superbugs by selection, but cannot "create" them. most of the time the superbugs are the result of exchange of DNA between different species of bacteria. I am not aware of anyone with data on why SUB therapeutic levels of antibiotics results in weight gain. It is just a well known fact. sorta like aspirin and quinine was used for thousands of years without knowing the mechanism of action. the use of antibiotics does not CAUSE antibiotic resistance, it can only increase the population of resistant bacteria in a person. So a person that doesnt take the full course of antibiotics may allow resistant bacteria to escape OR pass on resistant genes to other bacteria in the gut and from the gut shed into the environment. However, resistance genes can pass to other bacteria whether or not people are taking the antibiotics properly. we now have strains of bacteria popping up that are resistant to even the "last ditch" antibiotics and these antibiotics are NOT passed out like candy but use monitored extremely closely. No abuse but the resistant strains are there anyway. antibiotics used in sub therapeutics doses are not the ones used for therapeutic doses anymore. Ingrid Derek Broughton wrote: It's pure sophistry when you claim that salt doesn't create superbugs because it isn't mutagenic. Another description is "straw-man" argument, since I never suggested it _was_ mutagenic. Now if you want to argue that the science behind the allegations that use of salt is creating salt-resistant bugs is faulty, go right ahead. You could be right, but I still haven't seen enough good science to convince me that I (or my fish) will benefit from constant use of salt. And just what scientific principle explains how they put on weight if it is _not_ therapeutic? Anyway, sub-therapeutic treatment (regardless of whether poverty is also a vital component and, remember, South African President Mbeke nearly got crucified for saying the same of AIDS) is a proven cause of antibiotic resistance. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
#108
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look... this is my field and I teach this shit. I am tired of people saying that
antibiotics "cause" superbugs. they dont. the superbugs are THERE ALL THE TIME. to find resistant bugs all you have to do is do a water extraction of dirt and plate that out onto agar and drop antibiotic disks onto the plate. there are bacteria resistant to all the antibiotics. Most of the resistant bacteria are "free range" and dont normally infect humans. every time a person gets infected the bacteria replicates and is mutating NATURALLY and no antibiotic or anti viral medication on earth is going to kill 100% of all the bugs unless the medicine is used in such high concentration that it kills the host too. antibiotics and salt can only increase the population of superbugs by selection, but cannot "create" them. most of the time the superbugs are the result of exchange of DNA between different species of bacteria. I am not aware of anyone with data on why SUB therapeutic levels of antibiotics results in weight gain. It is just a well known fact. sorta like aspirin and quinine was used for thousands of years without knowing the mechanism of action. the use of antibiotics does not CAUSE antibiotic resistance, it can only increase the population of resistant bacteria in a person. So a person that doesnt take the full course of antibiotics may allow resistant bacteria to escape OR pass on resistant genes to other bacteria in the gut and from the gut shed into the environment. However, resistance genes can pass to other bacteria whether or not people are taking the antibiotics properly. we now have strains of bacteria popping up that are resistant to even the "last ditch" antibiotics and these antibiotics are NOT passed out like candy but use monitored extremely closely. No abuse but the resistant strains are there anyway. antibiotics used in sub therapeutics doses are not the ones used for therapeutic doses anymore. Ingrid Derek Broughton wrote: It's pure sophistry when you claim that salt doesn't create superbugs because it isn't mutagenic. Another description is "straw-man" argument, since I never suggested it _was_ mutagenic. Now if you want to argue that the science behind the allegations that use of salt is creating salt-resistant bugs is faulty, go right ahead. You could be right, but I still haven't seen enough good science to convince me that I (or my fish) will benefit from constant use of salt. And just what scientific principle explains how they put on weight if it is _not_ therapeutic? Anyway, sub-therapeutic treatment (regardless of whether poverty is also a vital component and, remember, South African President Mbeke nearly got crucified for saying the same of AIDS) is a proven cause of antibiotic resistance. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
#110
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Can't we all agree that antibiotics "cause" the conditions that allow
naturally resistant bacteria to proliferate to a degree where mutation into an even more resistant strain is more likely simply because the other bacteria are no longer around to compete with the superbugs therby allowing the superbugs to exchange genes more frequently leading to homozygocity of the resistance genes and the possibility of faster evolution to a really nasty bug through the natural mutation of these homozygous superbugs? So in a sense, the natural selection process not only leads to natural superbugs but "causes" the conditions for these natural superbugs to evolve into even stronger strains. I think you are both saying basically the same thing but the average person is not going to understand the nuance of your arguments and the average person has a much easier time understanding that antibiotics "cause" superbugs even though this is not factually accurate. From: Newsgroups: rec.ponds Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:02:06 GMT Subject: salt look... this is my field and I teach this shit. I am tired of people saying that antibiotics "cause" superbugs. they dont. the superbugs are THERE ALL THE TIME. to find resistant bugs all you have to do is do a water extraction of dirt and plate that out onto agar and drop antibiotic disks onto the plate. there are bacteria resistant to all the antibiotics. Most of the resistant bacteria are "free range" and dont normally infect humans. every time a person gets infected the bacteria replicates and is mutating NATURALLY and no antibiotic or anti viral medication on earth is going to kill 100% of all the bugs unless the medicine is used in such high concentration that it kills the host too. antibiotics and salt can only increase the population of superbugs by selection, but cannot "create" them. most of the time the superbugs are the result of exchange of DNA between different species of bacteria. I am not aware of anyone with data on why SUB therapeutic levels of antibiotics results in weight gain. It is just a well known fact. sorta like aspirin and quinine was used for thousands of years without knowing the mechanism of action. the use of antibiotics does not CAUSE antibiotic resistance, it can only increase the population of resistant bacteria in a person. So a person that doesnt take the full course of antibiotics may allow resistant bacteria to escape OR pass on resistant genes to other bacteria in the gut and from the gut shed into the environment. However, resistance genes can pass to other bacteria whether or not people are taking the antibiotics properly. we now have strains of bacteria popping up that are resistant to even the "last ditch" antibiotics and these antibiotics are NOT passed out like candy but use monitored extremely closely. No abuse but the resistant strains are there anyway. antibiotics used in sub therapeutics doses are not the ones used for therapeutic doses anymore. Ingrid Derek Broughton wrote: It's pure sophistry when you claim that salt doesn't create superbugs because it isn't mutagenic. Another description is "straw-man" argument, since I never suggested it _was_ mutagenic. Now if you want to argue that the science behind the allegations that use of salt is creating salt-resistant bugs is faulty, go right ahead. You could be right, but I still haven't seen enough good science to convince me that I (or my fish) will benefit from constant use of salt. And just what scientific principle explains how they put on weight if it is _not_ therapeutic? Anyway, sub-therapeutic treatment (regardless of whether poverty is also a vital component and, remember, South African President Mbeke nearly got crucified for saying the same of AIDS) is a proven cause of antibiotic resistance. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
#111
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figaro wrote:
Can't we all agree that antibiotics "cause" the conditions that allow naturally resistant bacteria to proliferate to a degree where mutation Probably not. I understand Ingrid's points perfectly, but it's still just trying to sidestep the issue. In fact, superbugs have *not* always been present. They mutate. Use of antibiotics speeds up natural selection. Whether you call that "cause" or want to pretend that we were going to have to face these same bugs later rather than sooner is all that's being discussed. So, back to salt. There are now bugs resistant to salt that didn't use to be. In the interest of not speeding up the process of natural selection to result in more of them, I don't plan to use "sub-therapeutic" levels of salt in my pond. -- derek |
#112
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figaro wrote:
Can't we all agree that antibiotics "cause" the conditions that allow naturally resistant bacteria to proliferate to a degree where mutation Probably not. I understand Ingrid's points perfectly, but it's still just trying to sidestep the issue. In fact, superbugs have *not* always been present. They mutate. Use of antibiotics speeds up natural selection. Whether you call that "cause" or want to pretend that we were going to have to face these same bugs later rather than sooner is all that's being discussed. So, back to salt. There are now bugs resistant to salt that didn't use to be. In the interest of not speeding up the process of natural selection to result in more of them, I don't plan to use "sub-therapeutic" levels of salt in my pond. -- derek |
#113
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misuse of antibiotics may cause an overgrowth or expansion of superbugs. the genes
for antibiotic resistance are already there. BTW, strep for some reason has been very slow to get genes for ANY resistant to plain old penicillin. I think I heard some have finally been found. but it may be that strep cannot get the genes from other bacteria. you see.... fungi make naturally occurring antibiotics and local bacteria have slowly evolved anti-antibiotic genes over millions and millions of years. they been at this evolving thing far, far longer than we have. superbugs got more copies of the plasmids carrying the resistance genes. average persons need to know the difference. but I will admit many physicians seem to miss the point. most certainly journalists do. the problem is the screw up with cause and effect, a very weak link in thinking that makes me crazy, and is a major problem with critical thinking. an example: somebody asks people who had heart attacks were asked what they drink. most drink coffee and lots of it. ergo, coffee CAUSES heart attacks. researcher with some idea of how to conduct research of this kind asks the families of people who DIED from their heart attacks what their loved one drank. most DID NOT drink coffee ergo, there is no cause and effect relationship between coffee consumption and heart attacks. the same fuzzy thinking occurs with salt consumption and high blood pressure (no correlation), high cholesterol and heart attacks (no correlation) but I bet everyone on this list believes high salt consumption leads to high blood pressure or that limiting salt consumption can lower blood pressure; that heart attacks are CAUSED by high cholesterol too. I am a teacher, therefore I teach. Ingrid figaro wrote: Can't we all agree that antibiotics "cause" the conditions that allow naturally resistant bacteria to proliferate to a degree where mutation into an even more resistant strain is more likely simply because the other bacteria are no longer around to compete with the superbugs therby allowing the superbugs to exchange genes more frequently leading to homozygocity of the resistance genes and the possibility of faster evolution to a really nasty bug through the natural mutation of these homozygous superbugs? So in a sense, the natural selection process not only leads to natural superbugs but "causes" the conditions for these natural superbugs to evolve into even stronger strains. I think you are both saying basically the same thing but the average person is not going to understand the nuance of your arguments and the average person has a much easier time understanding that antibiotics "cause" superbugs even though this is not factually accurate. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
#114
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misuse of antibiotics may cause an overgrowth or expansion of superbugs. the genes
for antibiotic resistance are already there. BTW, strep for some reason has been very slow to get genes for ANY resistant to plain old penicillin. I think I heard some have finally been found. but it may be that strep cannot get the genes from other bacteria. you see.... fungi make naturally occurring antibiotics and local bacteria have slowly evolved anti-antibiotic genes over millions and millions of years. they been at this evolving thing far, far longer than we have. superbugs got more copies of the plasmids carrying the resistance genes. average persons need to know the difference. but I will admit many physicians seem to miss the point. most certainly journalists do. the problem is the screw up with cause and effect, a very weak link in thinking that makes me crazy, and is a major problem with critical thinking. an example: somebody asks people who had heart attacks were asked what they drink. most drink coffee and lots of it. ergo, coffee CAUSES heart attacks. researcher with some idea of how to conduct research of this kind asks the families of people who DIED from their heart attacks what their loved one drank. most DID NOT drink coffee ergo, there is no cause and effect relationship between coffee consumption and heart attacks. the same fuzzy thinking occurs with salt consumption and high blood pressure (no correlation), high cholesterol and heart attacks (no correlation) but I bet everyone on this list believes high salt consumption leads to high blood pressure or that limiting salt consumption can lower blood pressure; that heart attacks are CAUSED by high cholesterol too. I am a teacher, therefore I teach. Ingrid figaro wrote: Can't we all agree that antibiotics "cause" the conditions that allow naturally resistant bacteria to proliferate to a degree where mutation into an even more resistant strain is more likely simply because the other bacteria are no longer around to compete with the superbugs therby allowing the superbugs to exchange genes more frequently leading to homozygocity of the resistance genes and the possibility of faster evolution to a really nasty bug through the natural mutation of these homozygous superbugs? So in a sense, the natural selection process not only leads to natural superbugs but "causes" the conditions for these natural superbugs to evolve into even stronger strains. I think you are both saying basically the same thing but the average person is not going to understand the nuance of your arguments and the average person has a much easier time understanding that antibiotics "cause" superbugs even though this is not factually accurate. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
#115
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the genes for antibiotics have existed for millions and millions of years.
the genes for resistance to antibiotics have existed for millions and millions of years. the genes have mostly been isolated to only small areas where the organisms were found. these genes can be transferred to different strains and species of bacteria by conjunction and resistance is almost always do to increase NUMBERS of copies of the resistance genes. many other things are also responsible for resistance: most humans with poor immune systems died before they were 1 year old, died when seriously injured, died when suffering malnutrition, died when they reached about 45 years or so. they werent around long enough to incubate resistant bacteria. Most humans didnt travel more than a few miles from where they were born so they werent spreading the resistant bacteria around Most people used to die in hospitals from infections aquired in hospitals if not from what brought them to the hospital and didnt spread them around. antibiotic resistance is a multi-factor problem. The WORST OFFENDERS, incubators and spreaders of superbugs are the people in hospitals. because they dont wash their hands (with soap of course) before touching a patient and second because some of them are CARRIERS which means no amount of washing is going to remove some kinds of nasty bacteria like staph. AND.. hospitals are where the very, very sick people are, where incubation of various types of bacteria giving them the chance to exchange genes is going on. and the people work in the hospital pick these superbugs up and carry them all over. nobody gets vancamycin OTC and STILL there are bacteria resistant to this antibiotic. they didnt mutate to get this resistance, the genes were already out there. different antibiotics have different mechanisms of action. no bacteria starts from "scratch" and makes a resistance gene by mutation. there are always mutations of existing genes going on, and sooner or later there are going to be bacteria make a gene that is mutated and resistant to every new antibiotic... unless we come up with some NEW mechanisms of action or classes of antibiotics. for this reason they are studying those "anti-microbial" proteins made by fish and secreted into their slime coat. you want to stop the spread of superbugs??? get the hospitals to start checking the hands of their people and institute a required washing of hands before touching a patient. my mother got a nosocomial infection and she was in a hospital where there was carpeting on the floors for god sake. at least in wisconsin the hospital aquired infection rate is SECRET. by law they dont have to report to ANYBODY when a person gets an infection they didnt come in with. the second suspected incubator is sewage systems, where raw sewage is dumped into water where people or animals have contact. back to salt. yes. my fish probably have salt resistant bugs on them since many of them they came from Prices koi farm and therefore I wouldnt think of using salt as a "treatment". I would say even one fish with salt resistant bugs will pass them to all fish in the pond so basically nobody should be using salt for treatment. since it is useless for treatment it is much better for it to be used as a prophylactic since it is excellent in this capacity. Ingrid Derek Broughton wrote: Probably not. I understand Ingrid's points perfectly, but it's still just trying to sidestep the issue. In fact, superbugs have *not* always been present. They mutate. Use of antibiotics speeds up natural selection. Whether you call that "cause" or want to pretend that we were going to have to face these same bugs later rather than sooner is all that's being discussed. So, back to salt. There are now bugs resistant to salt that didn't use to be. In the interest of not speeding up the process of natural selection to result in more of them, I don't plan to use "sub-therapeutic" levels of salt in my pond. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
#116
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the genes for antibiotics have existed for millions and millions of years.
the genes for resistance to antibiotics have existed for millions and millions of years. the genes have mostly been isolated to only small areas where the organisms were found. these genes can be transferred to different strains and species of bacteria by conjunction and resistance is almost always do to increase NUMBERS of copies of the resistance genes. many other things are also responsible for resistance: most humans with poor immune systems died before they were 1 year old, died when seriously injured, died when suffering malnutrition, died when they reached about 45 years or so. they werent around long enough to incubate resistant bacteria. Most humans didnt travel more than a few miles from where they were born so they werent spreading the resistant bacteria around Most people used to die in hospitals from infections aquired in hospitals if not from what brought them to the hospital and didnt spread them around. antibiotic resistance is a multi-factor problem. The WORST OFFENDERS, incubators and spreaders of superbugs are the people in hospitals. because they dont wash their hands (with soap of course) before touching a patient and second because some of them are CARRIERS which means no amount of washing is going to remove some kinds of nasty bacteria like staph. AND.. hospitals are where the very, very sick people are, where incubation of various types of bacteria giving them the chance to exchange genes is going on. and the people work in the hospital pick these superbugs up and carry them all over. nobody gets vancamycin OTC and STILL there are bacteria resistant to this antibiotic. they didnt mutate to get this resistance, the genes were already out there. different antibiotics have different mechanisms of action. no bacteria starts from "scratch" and makes a resistance gene by mutation. there are always mutations of existing genes going on, and sooner or later there are going to be bacteria make a gene that is mutated and resistant to every new antibiotic... unless we come up with some NEW mechanisms of action or classes of antibiotics. for this reason they are studying those "anti-microbial" proteins made by fish and secreted into their slime coat. you want to stop the spread of superbugs??? get the hospitals to start checking the hands of their people and institute a required washing of hands before touching a patient. my mother got a nosocomial infection and she was in a hospital where there was carpeting on the floors for god sake. at least in wisconsin the hospital aquired infection rate is SECRET. by law they dont have to report to ANYBODY when a person gets an infection they didnt come in with. the second suspected incubator is sewage systems, where raw sewage is dumped into water where people or animals have contact. back to salt. yes. my fish probably have salt resistant bugs on them since many of them they came from Prices koi farm and therefore I wouldnt think of using salt as a "treatment". I would say even one fish with salt resistant bugs will pass them to all fish in the pond so basically nobody should be using salt for treatment. since it is useless for treatment it is much better for it to be used as a prophylactic since it is excellent in this capacity. Ingrid Derek Broughton wrote: Probably not. I understand Ingrid's points perfectly, but it's still just trying to sidestep the issue. In fact, superbugs have *not* always been present. They mutate. Use of antibiotics speeds up natural selection. Whether you call that "cause" or want to pretend that we were going to have to face these same bugs later rather than sooner is all that's being discussed. So, back to salt. There are now bugs resistant to salt that didn't use to be. In the interest of not speeding up the process of natural selection to result in more of them, I don't plan to use "sub-therapeutic" levels of salt in my pond. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
#117
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#118
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#119
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Ingrid wrote but I bet everyone
on this list believes high salt consumption leads to high blood pressure or that limiting salt consumption can lower blood pressure; that heart attacks are CAUSED by high cholesterol too. Everyone??? I disincline to acquiesce to that assertion. kathy :-) algae primer http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html |
#120
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Ingrid wrote but I bet everyone
on this list believes high salt consumption leads to high blood pressure or that limiting salt consumption can lower blood pressure; that heart attacks are CAUSED by high cholesterol too. Everyone??? I disincline to acquiesce to that assertion. kathy :-) algae primer http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html |
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