The point is they DO use salt, actually much higher than is necessary for
prophylactic treatment of koi in our ponds.
Mark Curtis has never bred and raised koi.
Even IF the finding is correct, there werent resistant varieties before, there are
now, not using salt isnt going to correct that problem. It also ASSUMES that
treatment with salt is the best treatment available for trich, which I dont agree
with. The point is, the use of salt in ponds has less to do with treating parasites
than with supporting the electrolyte balance of fish and stimulating the slime coat
which is the first line of defense against parasites. Using salt as part of good
general cultural practices leads to vast reduction in ever needing to treat fish
for parasite infestations in the first place.
I accept that there are many people have not added salt and been successful. There
are many people who have naturally high levels of salt in their water too. Jo Ann
tells me she checked the water in Portland and Seattle which showed 0.04% salt. I
suspect that cities near the coasts like California, Texas, Florida have water with a
significant salt concentration. I know there is no salt in the water in Milwaukee
and our water comes from Lake Michigan. (nor iodine so they add it to our salt!!)
There are many other practices like dumping new fish directly into established ponds
with no quarantine that people have done for yeeeeears with NO PROBLEMO. People have
had plecos in with their GF for yeeeeeears with no problems. That doesnt mean it is
a good cultural practice.
All GOOD diagnosticians have a very good idea what the problem is before they order
tests, it comes from years of experience. Jo Ann can look at a pond, look at the
fish and know what the problem is cause she has years of experience. Of course the
majority of the time the problems the fish have are due to crappy water. Of course
most of the time the water leaves them open to parasites first, bacteria second. We
went to Walmart to pick up a fish to "work on". She looked at em in the tanks,
picked one and said "this one is going to have x,y,z" ... and when we got back to the
lab, that is what we found on that fish... in significant numbers!
Ingrid

"Gregory Young" wrote:
I do agree that the Japanese have used salt (BTW in higher levels, like .3%
or even more) in their farm ponds to raise Koi, but when interviewed by US
growers, they reported it was to keep down the algal growth,
Mr. Mark Curtis, formerly ofPicovs in Ontario.
Yes, but that still doesn't address the relatively recent finding of salt
tolerant (resistant) Trich
, many folkswho have quite successfully maintained ponds... never routinely salted either.

I don't know how anyone could look at a pond, and diagnose the problem
without knowing the water quality parameters, at the very least,


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

wrote in message
...
The point is they DO use salt, actually much higher than is necessary for
prophylactic treatment of koi in our ponds.
Mark Curtis has never bred and raised koi.

Oh, do you know Mark Curtis well? Before you answer, I should tell you that
I think your name just may have come up in our discussion on salt the other
weekend...

Even IF the finding is correct, there werent resistant varieties before,
there are
now, not using salt isnt going to correct that problem. It also ASSUMES
that
treatment with salt is the best treatment available for trich, which I
dont agree
with.

I never said it was the best, just one of the least stressful (higher
therapeutic toxic ratio).

The point is, the use of salt in ponds has less to do with treating
parasites
than with supporting the electrolyte balance of fish and stimulating the
slime coat
which is the first line of defense against parasites.

The fish in question are fresh water. They have survived quite nicely, in
natural non-crowded environments over the centuries with no help (salt) from
man. As you have pointed out there is often some salt in fresh water
environments. I am not arguing that. Just show me some proof that
supplemental salt is required to maintain healthy fish, as I said before,
and I'll switch over to using it. It's certainly cheap enough, and as we
speak I have 2 40# bags in case of need for future "pond calls".

If you truly believe the osmotic piece, the next time you have an intestinal
infection with electrolyte losing diarrhea, start drinking 0.9% salt water,
(isotonic with our tissues), and let us know what happens....

Using salt as part of good
general cultural practices leads to vast reduction in ever needing to
treat fish
for parasite infestations in the first place.

Oh really, show me some evidence! I maintain, as do most aquatic authorities
I have ever talked to, corresponded with, or read works of, that good water
quality is what "leads to vast reduction in ever needing to treat fish", not
how much salt someone dumps into a pond.

I accept that there are many people have not added salt and been
successful. There
are many people who have naturally high levels of salt in their water too.
Jo Ann
tells me she checked the water in Portland and Seattle which showed 0.04%
salt. I
suspect that cities near the coasts like California, Texas, Florida have
water with a
significant salt concentration. I know there is no salt in the water in
Milwaukee
and our water comes from Lake Michigan. (nor iodine so they add it to our
salt!!)

And they should, to help avoid the great lakes "goiter" problem that has
existed for years.

There are many other practices like dumping new fish directly into
established ponds
with no quarantine that people have done for yeeeeears with NO PROBLEMO.
People have
had plecos in with their GF for yeeeeeears with no problems. That doesnt
mean it is
a good cultural practice.

So you're equating not adding salt to a pond as an equivalent practice of
not quarantining fish? Really now!

All GOOD diagnosticians have a very good idea what the problem is before
they order
tests, it comes from years of experience. Jo Ann can look at a pond, look
at the
fish and know what the problem is cause she has years of experience.

Well I guess I, and countless others in the field are not "good
diagnosticans" then. Imagine the thought of looking into a pond, and seeing
clamped, red streaked fins on fish, who are rather listless, who may have
respiratory signs (who may BTW also have "nice" slime coats); and not
immediately knowing (based on our experience and training) whether the
problem is due to ammonia toxicity, low pH, chlorine toxicity, Hydrogen
sulfide toxicity, external parasites, bacterial infection, etc., etc., and
then actually having to test water parameters, first, followed by scrapings,
etc as indicated. Imagine that.. shame on us!

Actually this could be great. We could send digital photographs , along with
descriptions of our ponds, into the "experts" you recommend, who can
diagnose our pond problems over the internet. That would save many of us
trips to fellow fish owners' ponds with our scopes and test kits.

Boy, would things in the ER move faster! We could eliminate our blood
testing, CT scanning, etc., and go with our gut, (based our many years of
experience), just like it used to be done years ago (because available
testing was limited then folks.. don't get the wrong idea!). This would
certainly provide much more cost effective, and time efficient medicine, and
people would be happier.. at least initally anyway...

Of course the
majority of the time the problems the fish have are due to crappy water.
Of course
most of the time the water leaves them open to parasites first, bacteria
second. We
went to Walmart to pick up a fish to "work on". She looked at em in the
tanks,
picked one and said "this one is going to have x,y,z" ... and when we got
back to the
lab, that is what we found on that fish... in significant numbers!
Ingrid


That's exactly what the instructors in the KHA program did. They went to
another pet outlet, (who I will not name), and purchased GF, who had ample
live parasites for the class to view.

This salt discussion has really gotten silly! You just won't let it end will
you?

Greg

You mean Mark Curtis does breed and raise koi?
You are talking about the survival rate of wild carp in lakes and rivers? I would
like my pretty, not-survival-of-the-fittest koi to live longer than they would in the
wild.
All the proof I need is the recommendations of those who breed and raise koi and the
advice of experts who I trust. Like I said, it has to do with stimulating the slime
coat and electrolyte balance, not killing off cooties.
Yes, as a matter of fact there has been a huge leap forward in saving children in 3rd
world countries with acute gastroenteritis using ERT or electrolyte replacement
therapy aka oral rehydration.
http://www.uihealthcare.com/news/cur...isinyoung.html
"The experience with oral rehydration solutions is compelling. Over
90% of dehydrated children can be successfully rehydrated with
intensive use of glucose-electrolyte solutions without the need to
place an IV. The argument made in favor of this therapy is that it is
less expensive and has fewer complications. This type of therapy
can be administered in the patient's home if the child is only mildly
dehydrated or can be given in the emergency room or the clinic for
children with moderate dehydration."
So I certainly do HIGHLY recommend salt solutions for those with severe diarrhea,
like Gatorade or Propel.
Actually, that is what Jo Ann does on Puregold, altho I recommend people with sick
fish call her cause then she can cross examine them about their cultural practices.
251-649-4790. 9am - 5 pm. Ingrid

"Gregory Young" wrote:
Oh, do you know Mark Curtis well?
The fish in question are fresh water. They have survived quite nicely, in
natural non-crowded environments over the centuries with no help (salt) from
man.
Just show me some proof that supplemental salt is required to maintain healthy
fish,
If you truly believe the osmotic piece, the next time you have an intestinal
infection with electrolyte losing diarrhea, start drinking 0.9% salt water,
(isotonic with our tissues), and let us know what happens....

Actually this could be great. We could send digital photographs , along with
descriptions of our ponds, into the "experts" you recommend, who can
diagnose our pond problems over the internet.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

wrote in message
...
You mean Mark Curtis does breed and raise koi?

Never said he did, nor did I say he didn't. I thought you knew him? If so,
you know he has his own business since leaving Picovs.

You are talking about the survival rate of wild carp in lakes and rivers?
I would
like my pretty, not-survival-of-the-fittest koi to live longer than they
would in the
wild.

Please re-read my post to catch my point.

All the proof I need is the recommendations of those who breed and raise
koi and the
advice of experts who I trust.

So you do accept recommendations (of authorities you trust)as factual! I
find that fascinating, because when I relayed information in a very similiar
vein some months ago (actually over a year ago), you were quick to point out
that these were opinions I was relaying, and they were not based on any
scientific study. (in case you don't recall it was the increase in salt
resistant Trich seen on West coast imports from Japan that I relayed
following discussion of same at an AKCA sponsored seminar).

Like I said, it has to do with stimulating the slime
coat and electrolyte balance, not killing off cooties.

I guess you didn't read my last post as to why, at least a number (notice I
am not saying all) of Japanese breeders use salt - algal control...

Yes, as a matter of fact there has been a huge leap forward in saving
children in 3rd
world countries with acute gastroenteritis using ERT or electrolyte
replacement
therapy aka oral rehydration.
"The experience with oral rehydration solutions is compelling. Over
90% of dehydrated children can be successfully rehydrated with
intensive use of glucose-electrolyte solutions without the need to
place an IV. The argument made in favor of this therapy is that it is
less expensive and has fewer complications. This type of therapy
can be administered in the patient's home if the child is only mildly
dehydrated or can be given in the emergency room or the clinic for
children with moderate dehydration."
So I certainly do HIGHLY recommend salt solutions for those with severe
diarrhea,
like Gatorade or Propel.


You missed my point, I was being "cute" encouraging you to use .9NS instead
of water. In case you are unaware, that is used to induce osmotic GI losses
(diarrhea). Gatorade is not .9%NS. It is touted as a balanced electrolyte
solution.

I am very well versed on oral rehydration therapy. You forgot (or maybe
didn't know), that the job I recently left, was that of clinical director of
Emergency services for Kaleida Health, which included (as one of the 5 EDs I
headed up) Children's hospital of Buffalo.

We (the medical community) have been aware of oral rehydration for a number
of years. It's not new, except in the allied health and lay presses. The
more recent studies in our journals have been conducted to looked at its
cost benefit ratios, in an attempt to establish why it isn't being used in
most EDs that treat pediatrics, (as most still use IV fluids.)

Children's, being the national pediatric center it is, has used oral
rehydration quite successfully in their EDs/clinics. It is something we
teach to each of our pediatric EM fellows.

Ingrid

Greg

wrote in message
...
You mean Mark Curtis does breed and raise koi?

Never said he did, nor did I say he didn't. I thought you knew him? If so,
you know he has his own business since leaving Picovs.

You are talking about the survival rate of wild carp in lakes and rivers?
I would
like my pretty, not-survival-of-the-fittest koi to live longer than they
would in the
wild.

Please re-read my post to catch my point.

All the proof I need is the recommendations of those who breed and raise
koi and the
advice of experts who I trust.

So you do accept recommendations (of authorities you trust)as factual! I
find that fascinating, because when I relayed information in a very similiar
vein some months ago (actually over a year ago), you were quick to point out
that these were opinions I was relaying, and they were not based on any
scientific study. (in case you don't recall it was the increase in salt
resistant Trich seen on West coast imports from Japan that I relayed
following discussion of same at an AKCA sponsored seminar).

Like I said, it has to do with stimulating the slime
coat and electrolyte balance, not killing off cooties.

I guess you didn't read my last post as to why, at least a number (notice I
am not saying all) of Japanese breeders use salt - algal control...

Yes, as a matter of fact there has been a huge leap forward in saving
children in 3rd
world countries with acute gastroenteritis using ERT or electrolyte
replacement
therapy aka oral rehydration.
"The experience with oral rehydration solutions is compelling. Over
90% of dehydrated children can be successfully rehydrated with
intensive use of glucose-electrolyte solutions without the need to
place an IV. The argument made in favor of this therapy is that it is
less expensive and has fewer complications. This type of therapy
can be administered in the patient's home if the child is only mildly
dehydrated or can be given in the emergency room or the clinic for
children with moderate dehydration."
So I certainly do HIGHLY recommend salt solutions for those with severe
diarrhea,
like Gatorade or Propel.


You missed my point, I was being "cute" encouraging you to use .9NS instead
of water. In case you are unaware, that is used to induce osmotic GI losses
(diarrhea). Gatorade is not .9%NS. It is touted as a balanced electrolyte
solution.

I am very well versed on oral rehydration therapy. You forgot (or maybe
didn't know), that the job I recently left, was that of clinical director of
Emergency services for Kaleida Health, which included (as one of the 5 EDs I
headed up) Children's hospital of Buffalo.

We (the medical community) have been aware of oral rehydration for a number
of years. It's not new, except in the allied health and lay presses. The
more recent studies in our journals have been conducted to looked at its
cost benefit ratios, in an attempt to establish why it isn't being used in
most EDs that treat pediatrics, (as most still use IV fluids.)

Children's, being the national pediatric center it is, has used oral
rehydration quite successfully in their EDs/clinics. It is something we
teach to each of our pediatric EM fellows.

Ingrid

Greg

John,

The point the many seem to miss with Brett and his situation is that he
conditions his ponds like aquaculture farms, plus his water and the land in
which the ponds are positioned have a high concentration of mineral salts
anyway. I have spoken to him personally on this condition what "Salt" he
adds really his not in the same why many of on this list thinks about it,
plus in his grow out ponds for his big fish it is one per 1,000 gallons of
water and some are one fish 10,000 gallons of water.

His ponds are also not filtered, but are like a farm ponds, relaying on
rainfall for refilling.

Tom L.L.
"John Rutz" wrote in message
...
However, people like Brett have gone to Japan to

learn from

the masters and he has become an expert in koi breeding. Brett uses it

because the

Japanese use it and it works. Jo Ann uses salt because she has imported

thousands of

top quality Goldfish from the Chinese and they use it,


I copied this from a Japanese site
http://www.urban.ne.jp/home/koistaff/ikusei/eindex.html

Notice the comment on salt in the first part

REQUIREMENTS IN BREEDING


WATER

Fresh water only
KOIs can somehow live in salt water but it's not good in the long
run.
Water with 1% or under of salt will not do harm to KOIs in the
sense of health.
Water quality
Must be within the range from pH6.2 to 8.5. pH6.6�`7.5 is the most
suitable
(in case of concreted pool and fish tank�j
Water temperature
Must be within the range from 5 to 35 C 12�`28C is the most suitable
At 25C, KOIs sharpen their appetite.
Do not feed when the water temperature is under 12C. It is assumed
that it's better to change
water temperature according to the seasons ( somehow higher in
summer and somehow lower in winter)
This is because KOIs have been created and developed in Japan where
there are four seasons.
Water hardness
Use water of under 150ppm.
Water of under 50ppm is preferable.
Soft water is defined to be under 50ppm.
Nitrate
Must be under 5.5. 2.0ppm or under is the most suitable
Dissolved oxygen
At least 5ppm is required.�@
As well water contains quite few or no oxygen, such water must be
aerated before being used.
Reference�@electric conductivity(ƒÊ‚r/)
Water of 450�`150(ƒÊ‚r/)is usually used.
Water shoud be poor in iron,namely under 0.1ppm.
Water under 0.05ppm in iron is ideal.

�yGenerally speaking, KOIs are easier to breed than tropical fish
or goldfish. But be careful to keep them away from diseases. �z



John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from bad
judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

Greg,

It is really great reading your informative posts. You certainly put out
good researched and supported information. It is sure interesting that
Ingrid, who is supposed be a microbiologist and deals with scientific
investigation can't see the forest for the trees.

It is very interesting that she will not believe you with all your expertise
and background, but will put her trust in an Alabama LFS owner that has
taken a couple of college classes. In addition, Ingrid makes it sound like
Jo Ann has been doing disease diagnosis for years. She has years of
experience in keeping fish, probably about as much as I do, but her course
work has only occurred during the last 4 or 5 years. Also, from Jo Ann's
own mouth to my ears, she doesn't breed KOI or Goldfish either. She tried
years ago and gave up. So, in Ingrid's hierarchy of believability, where
does that put Jo Ann, because she doesn't breed KOI or Goldfish and from the
gist of Ingrid's messages this is a requirement.

In any event, Greg, Keep up the good work. It is such a pleasure to read
your informative posts.

Tom L.L.
------------------------------------------------------
"Gregory Young" wrote in message
. net...
wrote in message
...
You mean Mark Curtis does breed and raise koi?

Never said he did, nor did I say he didn't. I thought you knew him? If so,
you know he has his own business since leaving Picovs.

You are talking about the survival rate of wild carp in lakes and
rivers?
I would
like my pretty, not-survival-of-the-fittest koi to live longer than they
would in the
wild.

Please re-read my post to catch my point.

All the proof I need is the recommendations of those who breed and raise
koi and the
advice of experts who I trust.

So you do accept recommendations (of authorities you trust)as factual! I
find that fascinating, because when I relayed information in a very
similiar
vein some months ago (actually over a year ago), you were quick to point
out
that these were opinions I was relaying, and they were not based on any
scientific study. (in case you don't recall it was the increase in salt
resistant Trich seen on West coast imports from Japan that I relayed
following discussion of same at an AKCA sponsored seminar).

Like I said, it has to do with stimulating the slime
coat and electrolyte balance, not killing off cooties.

I guess you didn't read my last post as to why, at least a number (notice
I
am not saying all) of Japanese breeders use salt - algal control...

Yes, as a matter of fact there has been a huge leap forward in saving
children in 3rd
world countries with acute gastroenteritis using ERT or electrolyte
replacement
therapy aka oral rehydration.
"The experience with oral rehydration solutions is compelling. Over
90% of dehydrated children can be successfully rehydrated with
intensive use of glucose-electrolyte solutions without the need to
place an IV. The argument made in favor of this therapy is that it is
less expensive and has fewer complications. This type of therapy
can be administered in the patient's home if the child is only mildly
dehydrated or can be given in the emergency room or the clinic for
children with moderate dehydration."
So I certainly do HIGHLY recommend salt solutions for those with severe
diarrhea,
like Gatorade or Propel.


You missed my point, I was being "cute" encouraging you to use .9NS
instead
of water. In case you are unaware, that is used to induce osmotic GI
losses
(diarrhea). Gatorade is not .9%NS. It is touted as a balanced electrolyte
solution.

I am very well versed on oral rehydration therapy. You forgot (or maybe
didn't know), that the job I recently left, was that of clinical director
of
Emergency services for Kaleida Health, which included (as one of the 5 EDs
I
headed up) Children's hospital of Buffalo.

We (the medical community) have been aware of oral rehydration for a
number
of years. It's not new, except in the allied health and lay presses. The
more recent studies in our journals have been conducted to looked at its
cost benefit ratios, in an attempt to establish why it isn't being used in
most EDs that treat pediatrics, (as most still use IV fluids.)

Children's, being the national pediatric center it is, has used oral
rehydration quite successfully in their EDs/clinics. It is something we
teach to each of our pediatric EM fellows.

Ingrid

Greg

Tom La Bron wrote:
John,

The point the many seem to miss with Brett and his situation is that he
conditions his ponds like aquaculture farms, plus his water and the land in
which the ponds are positioned have a high concentration of mineral salts
anyway. I have spoken to him personally on this condition what "Salt" he
adds really his not in the same why many of on this list thinks about it,
plus in his grow out ponds for his big fish it is one per 1,000 gallons of
water and some are one fish 10,000 gallons of water.

His ponds are also not filtered, but are like a farm ponds, relaying on
rainfall for refilling.

Tom L.L.

I can see why he doesnt need filters with populations like that I would
wager he grows out some huge fish in those ponds




John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from bad
judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

Thanks for the reply Tom.
I haven't seen others posting to this topic, so I assume most want to keep
the heck out of this discussion, and quite frankly I can certainly
understand why, it's been beat to death!
I stopped replying, trying to go private email instead, but my offer to do
so was not accepted.
After the second public posting about good diagnosticians being able to just
look at a pond and figure out the problem (I let the first go), I felt I had
better reply, for fear some might actually believe that was possible.
Have to run.. will catch you later,
Happy ponding,
Greg
--


"Tom La Bron" wrote in message
...
Greg,

It is really great reading your informative posts. You certainly put out
good researched and supported information. It is sure interesting that
Ingrid, who is supposed be a microbiologist and deals with scientific
investigation can't see the forest for the trees.

It is very interesting that she will not believe you with all your
expertise
and background, but will put her trust in an Alabama LFS owner that has
taken a couple of college classes. In addition, Ingrid makes it sound
like
Jo Ann has been doing disease diagnosis for years. She has years of
experience in keeping fish, probably about as much as I do, but her course
work has only occurred during the last 4 or 5 years. Also, from Jo Ann's
own mouth to my ears, she doesn't breed KOI or Goldfish either. She tried
years ago and gave up. So, in Ingrid's hierarchy of believability, where
does that put Jo Ann, because she doesn't breed KOI or Goldfish and from
the
gist of Ingrid's messages this is a requirement.

In any event, Greg, Keep up the good work. It is such a pleasure to read
your informative posts.

Tom L.L.
------------------------------------------------------
"Gregory Young" wrote in message
. net...
wrote in message
...
You mean Mark Curtis does breed and raise koi?

Never said he did, nor did I say he didn't. I thought you knew him? If
so,
you know he has his own business since leaving Picovs.

You are talking about the survival rate of wild carp in lakes and
rivers?
I would
like my pretty, not-survival-of-the-fittest koi to live longer than
they
would in the
wild.

Please re-read my post to catch my point.

All the proof I need is the recommendations of those who breed and
raise
koi and the
advice of experts who I trust.

So you do accept recommendations (of authorities you trust)as factual! I
find that fascinating, because when I relayed information in a very
similiar
vein some months ago (actually over a year ago), you were quick to point
out
that these were opinions I was relaying, and they were not based on any
scientific study. (in case you don't recall it was the increase in salt
resistant Trich seen on West coast imports from Japan that I relayed
following discussion of same at an AKCA sponsored seminar).

Like I said, it has to do with stimulating the slime
coat and electrolyte balance, not killing off cooties.

I guess you didn't read my last post as to why, at least a number
(notice
I
am not saying all) of Japanese breeders use salt - algal control...

Yes, as a matter of fact there has been a huge leap forward in saving
children in 3rd
world countries with acute gastroenteritis using ERT or electrolyte
replacement
therapy aka oral rehydration.
"The experience with oral rehydration solutions is compelling. Over
90% of dehydrated children can be successfully rehydrated with
intensive use of glucose-electrolyte solutions without the need to
place an IV. The argument made in favor of this therapy is that it is
less expensive and has fewer complications. This type of therapy
can be administered in the patient's home if the child is only mildly
dehydrated or can be given in the emergency room or the clinic for
children with moderate dehydration."
So I certainly do HIGHLY recommend salt solutions for those with
severe
diarrhea,
like Gatorade or Propel.


You missed my point, I was being "cute" encouraging you to use .9NS
instead
of water. In case you are unaware, that is used to induce osmotic GI
losses
(diarrhea). Gatorade is not .9%NS. It is touted as a balanced
electrolyte
solution.

I am very well versed on oral rehydration therapy. You forgot (or maybe
didn't know), that the job I recently left, was that of clinical
director
of
Emergency services for Kaleida Health, which included (as one of the 5
EDs
I
headed up) Children's hospital of Buffalo.

We (the medical community) have been aware of oral rehydration for a
number
of years. It's not new, except in the allied health and lay presses. The
more recent studies in our journals have been conducted to looked at its
cost benefit ratios, in an attempt to establish why it isn't being used
in
most EDs that treat pediatrics, (as most still use IV fluids.)

Children's, being the national pediatric center it is, has used oral
rehydration quite successfully in their EDs/clinics. It is something we
teach to each of our pediatric EM fellows.

Ingrid

Greg

"Gregory Young" wrote in message
. ..
Thanks for the reply Tom.
I haven't seen others posting to this topic, so I assume most want to keep
the heck out of this discussion, and quite frankly I can certainly
understand why, it's been beat to death!
I stopped replying, trying to go private email instead, but my offer to do
so was not accepted.
After the second public posting about good diagnosticians being able to
just
look at a pond and figure out the problem (I let the first go), I felt I
had
better reply, for fear some might actually believe that was possible.
Have to run.. will catch you later,
Happy ponding,
Greg
snip

From a silent one...I have kept out of the discussion mostly because the
reading is better then the writing for me! I am somewhere on the fence
about this topic. I think you both raise some good points, but for me two
points are the most important. 1) I am against standardizing a medication
process. I don't take a pill unless I need it, and I don't think I want to
do that to my fish, so no salt just yet. 2) Unless I missed it, which is
possible, neither poster can provide a scientific study that says, "here duh
facts". I think this topic is somewhat ambiguous as we do not have a clear
data set to work from, but I must admit, I lean towards Greg's school. There
is just something 'fishy' about salting my fish. I dunno. My jury is still
out.

BV.

Hey BV:
I sent you an email, (removing the frontal lobe piece), to confirm your
address, as I was ready to send salt posts to you, but never heard back from
you. Did you receive my email?
I know of a number of educated folks that do add salt to their ponds,
routinely each spring and let the levels drop with water changes. They are
dedicated (purist type) Koi folks, who do not have any plants in their
systems, just massive ($$$$) filters, etc. I respect them, but I personally
don't go that route, because I would like to save salt as a therapeutic
agent, and don't want to run the risk of selection forces....
The folks I refer to practice all the proper procedures with quarantine,
etc.
If they get disease, they do the appropriate water quality test, then fish
studies (scrapings, etc), and Rx based on what they find. Often they will
use the "bigger guns" to Rx, but they know how to dose them, and what to
watch for.
Until there is "scientific" proof, there will be 2 schools of thought on
routine salt addition, so you will see no conclusive, overwhelming evidence
on either side.
I treat my fish, like I do my patients.. I don't give anything, unless I
have an indication for it. (First do no harm is my tenet). That approach has
worked well for me over the last 23 plus years of practice, and 20 plus
years of ponding.
Happy ponding,
Greg
PS As I said in earlier posts, there are no studies that confirm either way
to be the "right" way.
The fact that folks can do either and be successful, IMHO, is because they
maintain good water quality, and avoid the conditions leading to disease.


--


"BenignVanilla" m wrote in
message ...
"Gregory Young" wrote in message
. ..
Thanks for the reply Tom.
I haven't seen others posting to this topic, so I assume most want to
keep
the heck out of this discussion, and quite frankly I can certainly
understand why, it's been beat to death!
I stopped replying, trying to go private email instead, but my offer to
do
so was not accepted.
After the second public posting about good diagnosticians being able to
just
look at a pond and figure out the problem (I let the first go), I felt I
had
better reply, for fear some might actually believe that was possible.
Have to run.. will catch you later,
Happy ponding,
Greg
snip

From a silent one...I have kept out of the discussion mostly because the
reading is better then the writing for me! I am somewhere on the fence
about this topic. I think you both raise some good points, but for me two
points are the most important. 1) I am against standardizing a medication
process. I don't take a pill unless I need it, and I don't think I want to
do that to my fish, so no salt just yet. 2) Unless I missed it, which is
possible, neither poster can provide a scientific study that says, "here
duh
facts". I think this topic is somewhat ambiguous as we do not have a clear
data set to work from, but I must admit, I lean towards Greg's school.
There
is just something 'fishy' about salting my fish. I dunno. My jury is still
out.

BV.

Hey BV:
I sent you an email, (removing the frontal lobe piece), to confirm your
address, as I was ready to send salt posts to you, but never heard back from
you. Did you receive my email?
I know of a number of educated folks that do add salt to their ponds,
routinely each spring and let the levels drop with water changes. They are
dedicated (purist type) Koi folks, who do not have any plants in their
systems, just massive ($$$$) filters, etc. I respect them, but I personally
don't go that route, because I would like to save salt as a therapeutic
agent, and don't want to run the risk of selection forces....
The folks I refer to practice all the proper procedures with quarantine,
etc.
If they get disease, they do the appropriate water quality test, then fish
studies (scrapings, etc), and Rx based on what they find. Often they will
use the "bigger guns" to Rx, but they know how to dose them, and what to
watch for.
Until there is "scientific" proof, there will be 2 schools of thought on
routine salt addition, so you will see no conclusive, overwhelming evidence
on either side.
I treat my fish, like I do my patients.. I don't give anything, unless I
have an indication for it. (First do no harm is my tenet). That approach has
worked well for me over the last 23 plus years of practice, and 20 plus
years of ponding.
Happy ponding,
Greg
PS As I said in earlier posts, there are no studies that confirm either way
to be the "right" way.
The fact that folks can do either and be successful, IMHO, is because they
maintain good water quality, and avoid the conditions leading to disease.


--


"BenignVanilla" m wrote in
message ...
"Gregory Young" wrote in message
. ..
Thanks for the reply Tom.
I haven't seen others posting to this topic, so I assume most want to
keep
the heck out of this discussion, and quite frankly I can certainly
understand why, it's been beat to death!
I stopped replying, trying to go private email instead, but my offer to
do
so was not accepted.
After the second public posting about good diagnosticians being able to
just
look at a pond and figure out the problem (I let the first go), I felt I
had
better reply, for fear some might actually believe that was possible.
Have to run.. will catch you later,
Happy ponding,
Greg
snip

From a silent one...I have kept out of the discussion mostly because the
reading is better then the writing for me! I am somewhere on the fence
about this topic. I think you both raise some good points, but for me two
points are the most important. 1) I am against standardizing a medication
process. I don't take a pill unless I need it, and I don't think I want to
do that to my fish, so no salt just yet. 2) Unless I missed it, which is
possible, neither poster can provide a scientific study that says, "here
duh
facts". I think this topic is somewhat ambiguous as we do not have a clear
data set to work from, but I must admit, I lean towards Greg's school.
There
is just something 'fishy' about salting my fish. I dunno. My jury is still
out.

BV.

There is just something 'fishy' about salting my fish. I dunno. My jury is still
out. BV.

Here's one for your jury. I got a pond call the other day regarding murky
algae pond with plants doing poorly. Since the ponder was just up the
street from me and didn't know her pH I went up to see what's what. Found
out that one of the club members had told her he used salt to get rid of
algae. Course he didn't include (or she didn't catch the part) that 1) he
does it briefly in the spring and 2) has it reduced down by the time he
gets water hyacinths in. He also didn't include how to add the salt to this
relatively new ponder, who added it straight to the skimmer, thus the full
concentration was hitting the bio-filter first, frying the bacteria. s I
measured her pH, it was way off my scale that goes to 9.5! So between the
salt and the pH the only healthly thing in the pond was the algae. Looking
at the pads on the surface I figured she had 6 lilies, turned out she had
at least 20 down there.

I told her 1st to reduce the salt with water changes, she did own a salt
meter (not sure who talked her into that expensive toy, but I hope it came
with directions on calibration). I told her she needed to at least get pH
and KH tests to know what it was and at which time I would do more
explaining on how to lower. I'm really hoping she comes to Sunday's
meeting, as the club purchased a bulk order of the tests she needs.

One thing about it, her fish looked fine... what you could see thru the
green murk. ;o)

One of the other things I noticed was a heavy growth (though anemic) of
string algae on the stream/waterfall. I told her, "whatever you do, do NOT
scrub that algae off right now, it's probably the best filter (if not the
only filtration) you've got right now. ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

"Gregory Young" wrote in message
...
Hey BV:
I sent you an email, (removing the frontal lobe piece), to confirm your
address, as I was ready to send salt posts to you, but never heard back
from
you. Did you receive my email?
I know of a number of educated folks that do add salt to their ponds,
routinely each spring and let the levels drop with water changes. They are
dedicated (purist type) Koi folks, who do not have any plants in their
systems, just massive ($$$$) filters, etc. I respect them, but I
personally
don't go that route, because I would like to save salt as a therapeutic
agent, and don't want to run the risk of selection forces....
The folks I refer to practice all the proper procedures with quarantine,
etc.
If they get disease, they do the appropriate water quality test, then fish
studies (scrapings, etc), and Rx based on what they find. Often they will
use the "bigger guns" to Rx, but they know how to dose them, and what to
watch for.
Until there is "scientific" proof, there will be 2 schools of thought on
routine salt addition, so you will see no conclusive, overwhelming
evidence
on either side.
I treat my fish, like I do my patients.. I don't give anything, unless I
have an indication for it. (First do no harm is my tenet). That approach
has
worked well for me over the last 23 plus years of practice, and 20 plus
years of ponding.
Happy ponding,
Greg
PS As I said in earlier posts, there are no studies that confirm either
way
to be the "right" way.
The fact that folks can do either and be successful, IMHO, is because they
maintain good water quality, and avoid the conditions leading to disease.
snip

I concur.

BTW, I'd love to see the posts you said you mailed, but I don't see your
email in my inbox.

BV.

WOW!! THIS IS REALLY GOING OVER MY HEAD LOL, Don't think I can even
pronounce some of those words.


http://community.webtv.net/rebeljoe/POND