In article ,
"Cindy" wrote:

Same family, blackbirds, but no, they are not the same bird...

Grackles are larger and have dark eyes.
Starlings are smaller, quieter, and have those bright yellow eyes.

I don't really see that many starlings around here.

Probably due to the abundance of grackles filling that niche. G
--
K.

Yeah, I learned to despise starlings in Montana, where they're in aBUNdant
supply. They're really pretty birds, though.
I went to an exotic pet store not too long ago, and they were selling three
different color varieties of African starling. They all had the bright
yellow eyes and iridescent plumage. They were beautiful!

Cindy



Wow... I've not seen those varieties.
I'll have to do some googling!
--
K.

Katra wrote:

Victoria dear, I think you took his comment out of context. ;-)
I personally found it to be humourous and I think he meant it to be such!


Yeah, Victoria took me much more seriously than I usually take myself.
Once again, I apologize to anyone who was offended; that was not my
intention.

But, V....you gotta remember, I'm an absfg-ian. I don't take *any*thing
seriously. ;-)

DT
http://www.thehungersite.com/

"escape" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:23:22 -0600, Katra
opined:

In article ,
escape wrote:

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 00:36:38 -0600, Katra

opined:


I think I'm going to keep out of this one. ;-)
I have mixed feelings...

Yeah, I think Grackles are cute and I don't wish them ill,
but they DO tend to get a bit overpopulated and drive out
other species!

They are native birds.


Duh.
And humans are native to the planet (altho' there are some theorists
that say otherwise), but that does not make our overpopulation any less
destructive.

Native birds or not, that does not mean that an over-population of a
"native species" cannot do damage to the _other_ "native speices"!!!

Do you really want only ONE type of bird to inhabit the entire planet???

Please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say that. Grackles are
native
birds meaning they are not here to displace other native species. There
is room
for them when we don't bulldoze everything in sight so they have been
displaced.
Grackles travel in huge flocks, sometimes into the tens of thousands.
IT's
their natural way of life.

A couple of weeks ago, I was going to work downtown, and every lamp post
and sign along I-35 from Caesar Chavez to 8th St. was covered in grackles,
all facing the same direction and all about a wingspan apart. It was very
cool in the dawn light and very Hitchcockian.............. I'm glad they
don't roost at my house, but it seems very alive in places where they do,
jockeying for position and singing and all that. The pecking order must be
very complex.
I like them.

In article ,
escape wrote:

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:25:39 -0600, Katra
opined:



Victoria dear, I think you took his comment out of context. ;-)
I personally found it to be humourous and I think he meant it to be such!

While I would NEVER "celebrate" the untimely death of thousands of
grackles, he did have a point! In some areas there are far, FAR too many
of them and as a result, the population is none too healthy and they can
cause a health hazard to other species in those great numbers.

Where did you read that grackles cause a health hazard to other species of
birds?

Niche crowding and starvation,
HUGE piles of guano in plants and under trees and roosts.....

etc.

--
K.

Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

There is no need to change the world. All we have to do is toilet train the world and we'll never have to change it again. -- Swami Beyondanada

,,Cat's Haven Hobby Farm,,Katraatcenturyteldotnet,,

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

In article ,
escape wrote:

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:35:35 -0600, dt opined:

Katra wrote:

Victoria dear, I think you took his comment out of context. ;-)
I personally found it to be humourous and I think he meant it to be such!


Yeah, Victoria took me much more seriously than I usually take myself.
Once again, I apologize to anyone who was offended; that was not my
intention.

But, V....you gotta remember, I'm an absfg-ian. I don't take *any*thing
seriously. ;-)

DT
http://www.thehungersite.com/

I wasn't offended as much as I was just taken back by some of the cruel
comments
about innocent birds. I am probably too serious, so we have differences. I
laugh at doody jokes, fart humor and Howard Stern. I love Randi Rhodes and
Al
Franken, but when it comes to people celebrating the death of any living
thing
it hurts. I have to take full responsibility for that attachment and work on
ridding myself of it. However, I will always have compassion for all living
things including murderers on death row..

shiver Congratulations...
I try to live with the concept of unconditional love,
but you've got me beat there! ;-)

Most of those inmates are less than animals. Inhuman monsters with no
compassion or respect for human life, or any other life.

That is why they are there!

I respect and admire your ability to feel sorry for them. I've not made
it that far yet in my quest for a compassionate attitude...

And BTW, I don't hate grackles. ;-)
I enjoy their mating dances too!

--
K.

Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

There is no need to change the world. All we have to do is toilet train the world and we'll never have to change it again. -- Swami Beyondanada

,,Cat's Haven Hobby Farm,,Katraatcenturyteldotnet,,

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

In article ,
escape wrote:

On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 00:54:11 -0600, Katra
opined:

In article ,
escape wrote:

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:25:39 -0600, Katra
opined:



Victoria dear, I think you took his comment out of context. ;-)
I personally found it to be humourous and I think he meant it to be such!

While I would NEVER "celebrate" the untimely death of thousands of
grackles, he did have a point! In some areas there are far, FAR too many
of them and as a result, the population is none too healthy and they can
cause a health hazard to other species in those great numbers.

Where did you read that grackles cause a health hazard to other species of
birds?

Niche crowding and starvation,
HUGE piles of guano in plants and under trees and roosts.....

etc.

I wanted to know where you read how grackles cause a health hazard to other
species of birds.

Why do I need a physical reference? ;-)
Personal observation is sufficient...

--
K.

Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

There is no need to change the world. All we have to do is toilet train the world and we'll never have to change it again. -- Swami Beyondanada

,,Cat's Haven Hobby Farm,,Katraatcenturyteldotnet,,

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

In article ,
escape wrote:

On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 12:08:48 -0600, Katra
opined:


Why do I need a physical reference? ;-)
Personal observation is sufficient...

Observation is subjective, not scientific or objective. You made a pretty
firm
claim that grackles present a hazard to the health and well being of other
native birds and I am trying to check up on that. I thought since you were
making this statement, you must have read it somewhere.

Nope! I've simply observed that where there are large populations of
grackles, there are pretty much no other birds around...


In many years of observing native birds I've not known grackles to displace
or
present hazards to the health of any other birds simply based on their
lifestyle. They live in huge flocks, many times in parking lots, in city
trees,
on wires, etc.

Yes. And where there are huge flocks of them, there are no cardinals,
blue jays, mockingbirds, not even any doves!

Maybe a few sparrows are hardy enough as they occupy a slightly
different niche....


When making a statement, it is always useful to have a physical reference,
otherwise, we are left only to have information based on your perception.
I'm
truly not trying to be contrary here, but to let you know it isn't always
effective to make statements of such a nature without being able to back it
up
in some way. It leads to a perpetual ignorance, making, in this case,
grackles
out to be seen in a poor light.

All one has to do is to be as observant and see what I see...


I understand not liking them and their mountains of poops, noise, etc. That
is
a different set of circumstances which have nothing to do with displacing or
causing health hazard to any other native birds...which is my point.

Victoria

I think most people here will agree that where there are masses of
grackles, there are few other native birds around.

--
K.

Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

There is no need to change the world. All we have to do is toilet train the world and we'll never have to change it again. -- Swami Beyondanada

,,Cat's Haven Hobby Farm,,Katraatcenturyteldotnet,,

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

In article ,
escape wrote:


I'm simply debating with you on something you are not correct about. You
draw a
conclusion based on misinformation and that is not fair in a civilized world.
But then, you think all prisoners are lower than animals, so clearly this is
going nowhere.

Now you are mis-quoting me!
I never said that ALL prisoners were lower than animals!
I said that most murderers on death row were lower than animals
as they have no respect for life!

Sorry, but their "backgrounds" don't necesssarily make them that way.
Everyone has a choice in life. I'm a big believer in personal
responsibility!

Thousands of people have risen about bad childhoods!
Not everybody with a bad childhood turns into a criminal or murder. Mine
was not that great. I was a victim of extensive sexual and physical
abuse as a child. I've risen above it and am a decent, tax paying, and
contributing member of society.

They chose to be the way they are! Nobody "made" them do anything!

--
K.

Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

There is no need to change the world. All we have to do is toilet train the world and we'll never have to change it again. -- Swami Beyondanada

,,Cat's Haven Hobby Farm,,Katraatcenturyteldotnet,,

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

In article ,
escape wrote:

On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 14:07:13 -0600, Katra
opined:
(...)

I think most people here will agree that where there are masses of
grackles, there are few other native birds around.

That's not what you said. You said, and I'll keep repeating that, they cause
health hazards to native birds. This is untrue, yet you keep avoiding this.
Grackles live in parking lots, in cities near noise and in some of the worst
polluted areas of town.


Okay, since you are too lazy to google it yourself, I did it for you.
There are NUMEROUS references to the health hazards of large deposits of
bird guano:

http://www.heritage.vic.gov.au/page.asp?ID=187
http://dectam.com/services/pigeonguanoremoval/
http://www.idph.state.il.us/public/hb/hbb&bdrp.htm
http://chppm-www.apgea.army.mil/ento/TG142.HTM
http://www.batspecialist.com/bird_hazards.html
http://www.aviansystems.com/hazards.asp
http://www.hawkeye.ca/health_hazards.shtml

One of the most common and most dangerous hazards of large guano
deposits is the growth of a particular pathogenic fungus called
Histoplasma. Histoplasma releases a lot of spores and can be inhaled
causing fatal lung disease.

Many wild birds also carry coccidiosis which is dangerous to other
wildlife. Rabbits can contract it and die from it, and so can other
young birds that are sensitive to it. Most baby chick starter feeds for
chickens is treated with amprolium to help the chicks develop an
immunity without dieing from it.

Immunosuppressed or immunocompromised humans such as people with HIV,
infants and the elderly can contract it also, but it's rare.
Coccidiosis is spread via the droppings. The more crowding you have with
birds, the more likely they are to spread disease from one to another.

Granted, the disease dangers that large flocks of grackles carry is far
more dangerous to humans than other birds, but I've noted that I had to
stop feeding wild birds in my yard because it was attracting more ane
more grackles! Now that I've stopped feeding with feeders and plant
"bird plants" instead, the grackles no longer come to my yard and as a
result, I'm getting a LOT more cardinals, mockingbirds, doves, wrens,
etc.

The grackles were driving my other birds away!

--
K.

Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

There is no need to change the world. All we have to do is toilet train the world and we'll never have to change it again. -- Swami Beyondanada

,,Cat's Haven Hobby Farm,,Katraatcenturyteldotnet,,

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

In article ,
escape wrote:

On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 17:34:41 -0600, Katra
opined:

In article ,
escape wrote:


I'm simply debating with you on something you are not correct about. You
draw a
conclusion based on misinformation and that is not fair in a civilized
world.
But then, you think all prisoners are lower than animals, so clearly this
is
going nowhere.

Now you are mis-quoting me!
I never said that ALL prisoners were lower than animals!
I said that most murderers on death row were lower than animals
as they have no respect for life!

Here's what you said:
shiver Congratulations...
I try to live with the concept of unconditional love,
but you've got me beat there! ;-)

Most of those inmates are less than animals. Inhuman monsters with no
compassion or respect for human life, or any other life.

That is why they are there!

I respect and admire your ability to feel sorry for them. I've not made
it that far yet in my quest for a compassionate attitude...

And BTW, I don't hate grackles. ;-)
I enjoy their mating dances too!


True, but you know dorned well that in YOUR post you (and I) were
specifically referring to DEATH ROW inmates! Death row inmates are
usually there for murder.......



Sorry, but their "backgrounds" don't necesssarily make them that way.
Everyone has a choice in life. I'm a big believer in personal
responsibility!

As a Buddhist I also believe in personal responsibility, but compassion is
free
and better for the body and mind than continual hating.

Compassion is fine, but would you turn these people loose to kill again?
Or worse, condemn them to live in prison?
Personally, I'd much rather die than live in those conditions for life.
Compassion can go both ways!

I once came across a poor possum that had been hit by a car. He was
still very much alive but his face was broken and both eyes had been put
out.

I took a tire iron out and bashed him on the back of the skull to kill
him quickly and mercifully, and put him out of his suffering.

I think that most death row inmates are suffering. The death penalty CAN
be merciful.

Can you kill out of mercy?


Thousands of people have risen about bad childhoods!
Not everybody with a bad childhood turns into a criminal or murder. Mine
was not that great. I was a victim of extensive sexual and physical
abuse as a child. I've risen above it and am a decent, tax paying, and
contributing member of society.

They chose to be the way they are! Nobody "made" them do anything!

I never said anyone made them do anything. I said I have compassion for
them.
I also had a horrible childhood. Nothing equal to some of the stories I've
heard from these people on death row and I was raped at age 11 and again at
15
again at 17. I feel compassion for those guys too because of the
unimaginable
amount of negative karma they have generated for ions to come. We have a
different way of thinking, Katra. That's fine.

Ok.... ;-)
I feel compassion also for them, but not enough to set them free to do
more damage to society! Yes, I still feel that some of them are horrible
people due to their attitudes and LACK of compassion, but being what I
consider to be human and humane, I think we are doing them a favor by
allowing them to pass on into the next life where Karma can judge them
and help them thru that badly needed transition. I don't think I ever
said I "hated" them. My high preistess taught me better than that.
Hatred os counter-productive.

Death can be merciful and compassionate!

I still have mixed feelings about poor Terry Shaivo.
I think her parents should have had more rights than the husband...

but that's another argument.

--
K.

Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

There is no need to change the world. All we have to do is toilet train the world and we'll never have to change it again. -- Swami Beyondanada

,,Cat's Haven Hobby Farm,,Katraatcenturyteldotnet,,

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

escape wrote:
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:23:22 -0600, Katra opined:
They are native birds.


Duh.
And humans are native to the planet (altho' there are some theorists
that say otherwise), but that does not make our overpopulation any less
destructive.

Native birds or not, that does not mean that an over-population of a
"native species" cannot do damage to the _other_ "native speices"!!!

Do you really want only ONE type of bird to inhabit the entire planet???


Please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say that. Grackles are native
birds meaning they are not here to displace other native species. There is room
for them when we don't bulldoze everything in sight so they have been displaced.
Grackles travel in huge flocks, sometimes into the tens of thousands. IT's
their natural way of life.


There are two types of grackle. With the first, larger type grackle, the
male is large and black while the female is a smaller brown bird. They
live more soliitary lives, though they do congregate. With the smaller
type both male and female are black and near the same size. They flock
and are migratory. They were in town a couple weeks back, most are
probably moved on by now.

When I was growing up in South Texas there was a single large male that
stayed near a pond not far from our house. I'd pretend he was talking to
me with his funny sounds.

Cowboy

escape wrote:
On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 12:08:48 -0600, Katra opined:



Why do I need a physical reference? ;-)
Personal observation is sufficient...


Observation is subjective, not scientific or objective. You made a pretty firm
claim that grackles present a hazard to the health and well being of other
native birds and I am trying to check up on that. I thought since you were
making this statement, you must have read it somewhere.

In many years of observing native birds I've not known grackles to displace or
present hazards to the health of any other birds simply based on their
lifestyle. They live in huge flocks, many times in parking lots, in city trees,
on wires, etc.


The smaller migratory variety live in huge flocks - the larger permanent
variety thankfully don't flock, though they do live here in large
numbers and tend to group in favorable territory - like the University
of Texas campus.

Cowboy


I understand not liking them and their mountains of poops, noise, etc. That is
a different set of circumstances which have nothing to do with displacing or
causing health hazard to any other native birds...which is my point.

Victoria

On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 16:47:08 GMT, Cowboy
wrote:


When I was growing up in South Texas there was a single large male that
stayed near a pond not far from our house. I'd pretend he was talking to
me with his funny sounds.

He was Cowboy, saying "Move to Austin, move to Austin."

Rusty Mase

There is goodness in everyone. That which we describe as nature,complete
with all human beings, started out as perfect. I am a Christian. I believe
in compassion and forgiveness for all, Yes, all.Human beings can be saved
from what they have become, no matter who they are or what they've done.We
are saved by God's grace.
steph

"escape" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 00:58:28 -0600, Katra
opined:


shiver Congratulations...
I try to live with the concept of unconditional love,
but you've got me beat there! ;-)

Why shivering? Having compassion for all living things is really a pretty
freeing feeling. It's a nice feeling, actually. Hatred, anger, rage,
unrest
because of things other people do is a huge waste of precious time and
ultimately ineffective. So much more can be accomplished when we're kind
and
try to understand. Unconditional love? I didn't say I have unconditional
love,
I said I loved this and these, but I have compassion for all living beings
and
forgiveness.

Most of those inmates are less than animals. Inhuman monsters with no
compassion or respect for human life, or any other life.

I see. How many inmates have you gotten to know? Do you write to any of
them,
have any connection to any in any way? You'd be surprised at just how
interesting and precious many of them are. You'd be surprised at the
level of
abuse they suffered in their lives to cause them to do harm to others.
There
are many factors. I choose to leave some space and not make blanket
statements
about people. I do have contact with prisoners on a regular basis. The
other
difference between how you think and how I think is that all life is
precious
and being an animal or as you say, less than an animal are not
distinctions I
make about life.

That is why they are there!

Maybe. I didn't say they are warm and fuzzy. I didn't deny their crimes.
I
don't say they (many of them) should be let out. I said I have compassion
for
them. It's called equanimity. Friend, enemy, stranger. This is a
Buddhist
concept. I'm Buddhist. It makes sense that I'd think like this.
Actually,
forgiveness is not a Buddhist only ideal. As far as I know, Jesus
preached
forgiveness as well.

I respect and admire your ability to feel sorry for them. I've not made
it that far yet in my quest for a compassionate attitude...

I don't feel sorry for them. You mix these words as if they are the same.
You
don't have to quest for compassion, you just decide.

And BTW, I don't hate grackles. ;-)
I enjoy their mating dances too!






Need a good, cheap, knowledge expanding present for yourself or a friend?
http://www.animaux.net/stern/present.html

escape wrote:


You have no idea how horrendous this makes you sound as a human being. How
void are you to say such a thing like this. My heart goes out to such hatred.


Grackles are bullies which eat up all the food used by migrating birds,
song birds, and nesting local birds. They kill nesting birds, eat
nesting eggs, torment dogs and cats. and mess up cars. I can think of
no redeeming features about grackles.


Harold