wrote:
Arthur wrote:
.
It is truly shameful that the Jewish people who have suffered so much for
so long, should so rapidly forget the lessons of their own history.

By the same token, their history has taught them to defend themselves
as no-one else will. As I've said before, however unpalatable the
current action, it cannot easily be apportioned or explained.

The Jewish people have learned and fully absorbed the Most Important
lessons of their own history.

No One, Absolutely No One can be counted on to come to their aid when
faced with extermination. The entire world will turn it's back when it
comes to that time. They have done it before. Popes, Governments, Media
and Peoples. They are doing it now.

They can only count on themselves and will destroy anyone who attempts
to eliminate them. They really don't care what *anyone* thinks who is
outside their borders.

Scott wrote:
Humble Scribe wrote:
In message , Guy Fawkes
writes

Are Israeli attacks against the people of Lebanon and Gaza in accord with
the requirements of international law, and if not, how are these
attacks any
different to Hitler invading Poland?


Poland wasn't firing rockets into Germany........

The rockets followed the attack against Lebanon, they did not preceed it.

Wrong, actually. UN Security Council Resolution 1655 (2006) noted,
amongst other concerns involving both sides "the hostilities initiated
by Hizbullah on 21 November 2005 and those triggered by the firing of
rockets from Lebanon into Israel on 27 December 2005".


There is no simple trigger to this, and no side is blameless.
Hizbullah, the Lebanese government and the Isrealis are all culpable

In message , Scott
writes
Humble Scribe wrote:
But then we get back to why are Hizbollah firing the rockets. They
will claim in retaliation for Israel's military actions over the last
50 years;

NO THEY WOULDN'T! You are yet another victim of Israeli propaganda. The
rockets were not fired from Lebanon until AFTER Israel had struck
civilian targets, bombing bridges, airfields etc, killing civilians
over half of whom were women and children.

So- is that not an Israeli military action that took place within "the
last 50 years"!
--
John

wrote in message
ps.com...

wrote:
Arthur wrote:
.
It is truly shameful that the Jewish people who have suffered so much
for
so long, should so rapidly forget the lessons of their own history.

By the same token, their history has taught them to defend themselves
as no-one else will. As I've said before, however unpalatable the
current action, it cannot easily be apportioned or explained.

The Jewish people have learned and fully absorbed the Most Important
lessons of their own history.

No One, Absolutely No One can be counted on to come to their aid when
faced with extermination. The entire world will turn it's back when it
comes to that time. They have done it before. Popes, Governments, Media
and Peoples. They are doing it now.

They can only count on themselves and will destroy anyone who attempts
to eliminate them. They really don't care what *anyone* thinks who is
outside their borders.


That's the emotive feeling that many Israelis would share, but a government
is expected to take a more measured and responsible approach. They do care
very much what the USA and UK think. The government of Israel is embarrassed
at the bad publicity in much the same way that Bush was embarrassed by Abu
Ghraib. And more to the point, they have now proved that by attacking the
Lebanese civilian communities they have not suppressed Hizbollah but have
caused it to fight back with increased vigour. An expensive lesson all
round. The UN is now trying to raise an emergency fund of 81 million pounds
to help the 800,000 Lebanese civilians whose lives have been affected by the
bombing. Who will pay the bill? Was it money well spent?

"Guy Fawkes" wrote in message
...
Are Israeli attacks against the people of Lebanon and Gaza in accord with
the requirements of international law, and if not, how are these attacks
any different to Hitler invading Poland?
Seems to me that Hitler is a Jew and is now currently living in Israel,
working on a smaller project!

In message , sploop
writes

"Guy Fawkes" wrote in message
...
Are Israeli attacks against the people of Lebanon and Gaza in accord with
the requirements of international law, and if not, how are these attacks
any different to Hitler invading Poland?
Seems to me that Hitler is a Jew and is now currently living in Israel,
working on a smaller project!

............ And 107 yrs old!
--
John

Scott wrote:
Humble Scribe wrote:
In message op.tc6u8iu1q4en03@home1, Arthur
writes

On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 09:45:49 +0100, Humble Scribe
wrote:

In message , Guy Fawkes
writes

Are Israeli attacks against the people of Lebanon and Gaza in accord
with
the requirements of international law, and if not, how are these
attacks any
different to Hitler invading Poland?


Poland wasn't firing rockets into Germany........


Just to be clear, are you saying that the current Israeli actions are
justified?

No- just pointing out the difference between Hitler's action and
Israel's action as requested.

That said and although I am Israel's Zionist policies, I suspect that if
the IRA were regularly firing rockets into Liverpool and had a
fundamental objective of wiping the UK off the map (as Hizbollah does
with Israel) then would we not support the UK army seeking to wipe them
out even if they were in the Irish Republic and the Irish Government
were doing nothing to stop them?

But then we get back to why are Hizbollah firing the rockets. They will
claim in retaliation for Israel's military actions over the last 50
years;

NO THEY WOULDN'T! You are yet another victim of Israeli propaganda.
The rockets were not fired from Lebanon until AFTER Israel had struck
civilian targets, bombing bridges, airfields etc, killing civilians
over half of whom were women and children.

Check out this timeline.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timelin...Lebanon_crisis

Either you're a liar, stupid or you just want the "Truth" to fit your
perception. Why is everybody trying to make Hezbollah look like Angels?
When Hezbollah admits that it's stated aim is the destruction of Isael?


Perhaps they are buying into their Propaganda.

wrote in message
oups.com...

Scott wrote:
Humble Scribe wrote:
In message op.tc6u8iu1q4en03@home1, Arthur
writes

On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 09:45:49 +0100, Humble Scribe
wrote:

In message , Guy Fawkes
writes

Are Israeli attacks against the people of Lebanon and Gaza in accord
with
the requirements of international law, and if not, how are these
attacks any
different to Hitler invading Poland?


Poland wasn't firing rockets into Germany........


Just to be clear, are you saying that the current Israeli actions are
justified?

No- just pointing out the difference between Hitler's action and
Israel's action as requested.

That said and although I am Israel's Zionist policies, I suspect that
if
the IRA were regularly firing rockets into Liverpool and had a
fundamental objective of wiping the UK off the map (as Hizbollah does
with Israel) then would we not support the UK army seeking to wipe them
out even if they were in the Irish Republic and the Irish Government
were doing nothing to stop them?

But then we get back to why are Hizbollah firing the rockets. They
will
claim in retaliation for Israel's military actions over the last 50
years;

NO THEY WOULDN'T! You are yet another victim of Israeli propaganda.
The rockets were not fired from Lebanon until AFTER Israel had struck
civilian targets, bombing bridges, airfields etc, killing civilians
over half of whom were women and children.

Check out this timeline.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timelin...Lebanon_crisis

Either you're a liar, stupid or you just want the "Truth" to fit your
perception. Why is everybody trying to make Hezbollah look like Angels?
When Hezbollah admits that it's stated aim is the destruction of Isael?

Why do you say that *everybody* is trying to make Hezbollah look like
angels? Most of us are expressing concern about the innocent civilians
killed by the Israelis and speaking for myself, I don't much care if every
Hezbollah fighter gets burned to death. The IDF is the moral equivalent of
Hizbollah. They are both thoroughly contemptible.

If you want to argue "who started it" you could start at any point and
arrive at a different answer. I am not convinced that 12th July is the right
date to start the chronology. I suspect that the Wikipedia account largely
mirrors the official Israeli account which is given at
http://www.israel.org/MFA/Terrorism-...06.htm#summary
or
http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/mal...llah_upd1e.pdf

The BBC reports suggest that on 28th May, Hezbollah fired some rockets onto
Israeli military targets on Israeli soil (Mount Miron) which at that time
triggered an Israeli response consisting of warplane attacks on militant
bases in Lebanon. If the Israeli account is accurate, Hezbollah were mainly
targeting military sites up to 12th July but some of their rockets fell on
Israeli civilians, whether by accident or not.

The Todal wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Scott wrote:
Humble Scribe wrote:
In message op.tc6u8iu1q4en03@home1, Arthur
writes

On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 09:45:49 +0100, Humble Scribe
wrote:

In message , Guy Fawkes
writes

Are Israeli attacks against the people of Lebanon and Gaza in accord
with
the requirements of international law, and if not, how are these
attacks any
different to Hitler invading Poland?


Poland wasn't firing rockets into Germany........


Just to be clear, are you saying that the current Israeli actions are
justified?

No- just pointing out the difference between Hitler's action and
Israel's action as requested.

That said and although I am Israel's Zionist policies, I suspect that
if
the IRA were regularly firing rockets into Liverpool and had a
fundamental objective of wiping the UK off the map (as Hizbollah does
with Israel) then would we not support the UK army seeking to wipe them
out even if they were in the Irish Republic and the Irish Government
were doing nothing to stop them?

But then we get back to why are Hizbollah firing the rockets. They
will
claim in retaliation for Israel's military actions over the last 50
years;

NO THEY WOULDN'T! You are yet another victim of Israeli propaganda.
The rockets were not fired from Lebanon until AFTER Israel had struck
civilian targets, bombing bridges, airfields etc, killing civilians
over half of whom were women and children.

Check out this timeline.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timelin...Lebanon_crisis

Either you're a liar, stupid or you just want the "Truth" to fit your
perception. Why is everybody trying to make Hezbollah look like Angels?
When Hezbollah admits that it's stated aim is the destruction of Isael?

Why do you say that *everybody* is trying to make Hezbollah look like
angels? Most of us are expressing concern about the innocent civilians
killed by the Israelis and speaking for myself, I don't much care if every
Hezbollah fighter gets burned to death. The IDF is the moral equivalent of
Hizbollah. They are both thoroughly contemptible.

If you want to argue "who started it" you could start at any point and
arrive at a different answer. I am not convinced that 12th July is the right
date to start the chronology. I suspect that the Wikipedia account largely
mirrors the official Israeli account which is given at
http://www.israel.org/MFA/Terrorism-...06.htm#summary
or
http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/mal...llah_upd1e.pdf

The BBC reports suggest that on 28th May, Hezbollah fired some rockets onto
Israeli military targets on Israeli soil (Mount Miron) which at that time
triggered an Israeli response consisting of warplane attacks on militant
bases in Lebanon. If the Israeli account is accurate, Hezbollah were mainly
targeting military sites up to 12th July but some of their rockets fell on
Israeli civilians, whether by accident or not.

12th July may be the right date to start the chronology, but the year
would probably end in "BC"!!

It's interesting to note that among the abject condemnation of Israel
here, comments such as ".................but
some of their rockets fell on Israel civilians, whether by accident or
not........................." accompanies comments
on Hezbollah! The differential treatment of the two is quite easy to
see.

wrote:
The Todal wrote:

Any nation that uses its war machine to attack innocent civilians, should be
blamed one hundred percent. There is no excuse. Even if they think there are
terrorists in a block of flats, this does not excuse demolishing the block
of flats plus four or five neighbouring blocks of flats.

While I agree there is no excuse, this is not a simple black and white
wrong/right sutuation which is exactly why this area has been a
festering sore for so many years.

Festering sore! You aren't kidding. All due to the British pulling out
due to terrorists activities that they had no control over.
Israel/Zionist terrorists! My how times have changed

GW

wrote in message
oups.com...

The Todal wrote:

If you want to argue "who started it" you could start at any point and
arrive at a different answer. I am not convinced that 12th July is the
right
date to start the chronology. I suspect that the Wikipedia account
largely
mirrors the official Israeli account which is given at
http://www.israel.org/MFA/Terrorism-...06.htm#summary
or
http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/mal...llah_upd1e.pdf

The BBC reports suggest that on 28th May, Hezbollah fired some rockets
onto
Israeli military targets on Israeli soil (Mount Miron) which at that time
triggered an Israeli response consisting of warplane attacks on militant
bases in Lebanon. If the Israeli account is accurate, Hezbollah were
mainly
targeting military sites up to 12th July but some of their rockets fell
on
Israeli civilians, whether by accident or not.

12th July may be the right date to start the chronology, but the year
would probably end in "BC"!!

It's interesting to note that among the abject condemnation of Israel
here, comments such as ".................but
some of their rockets fell on Israel civilians, whether by accident or
not........................." accompanies comments
on Hezbollah! The differential treatment of the two is quite easy to
see.

There is a reason for this.

Hezbollah: terrorists, limited budget and choice of weapons, do not
necessarily have the skill or the technology to aim their rockets precisely,
probably would have preferred to attack soldiers (major blow to morale of
Israeli military) rather than a few shepherds whom nobody will particularly
miss, until after Israel started attacking Lebanese cities whereupon it was
important to show that they could hit Israeli cities.

IDF: sophisticated well-equipped army and air force, does nothing without
careful assessments by highly skilled and well-paid military strategists,
have command of the skies so that they can see precisely what they are
targetting. If they demolish all the city tower blocks within a one mile
radius, it is because they want to.

And both regard innocent civilians as expendable in the service of a greater
cause.

On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 15:07:23 +0100,
wrote:

Haha!! The "I didn't know any better" Defense!!

Not quite. The "I'm doing the best I can with the tools at hand" defence.
Of course they would have liked to hit military tagets, but they have
basic, inaccurate weapons.


Now it's The Israeli's fault because they have better weapons and a
more efficient military!!

Exactly. They have precision tools and they have destroyed the targets
they chose.
When we saw the Red Cross trucks burning, it was because they were
precisely targeted.

wrote in message
oups.com...

The Todal wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

The Todal wrote:

If you want to argue "who started it" you could start at any point and
arrive at a different answer. I am not convinced that 12th July is the
right
date to start the chronology. I suspect that the Wikipedia account
largely
mirrors the official Israeli account which is given at
http://www.israel.org/MFA/Terrorism-...06.htm#summary
or
http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/mal...llah_upd1e.pdf

The BBC reports suggest that on 28th May, Hezbollah fired some rockets
onto
Israeli military targets on Israeli soil (Mount Miron) which at that
time
triggered an Israeli response consisting of warplane attacks on
militant
bases in Lebanon. If the Israeli account is accurate, Hezbollah were
mainly
targeting military sites up to 12th July but some of their rockets
fell
on
Israeli civilians, whether by accident or not.

12th July may be the right date to start the chronology, but the year
would probably end in "BC"!!

It's interesting to note that among the abject condemnation of Israel
here, comments such as ".................but
some of their rockets fell on Israel civilians, whether by accident or
not........................." accompanies comments
on Hezbollah! The differential treatment of the two is quite easy to
see.

There is a reason for this.

Hezbollah: terrorists, limited budget and choice of weapons, do not
necessarily have the skill or the technology to aim their rockets
precisely,
probably would have preferred to attack soldiers (major blow to morale of
Israeli military) rather than a few shepherds whom nobody will
particularly
miss, until after Israel started attacking Lebanese cities whereupon it
was
important to show that they could hit Israeli cities.

IDF: sophisticated well-equipped army and air force, does nothing without
careful assessments by highly skilled and well-paid military strategists,
have command of the skies so that they can see precisely what they are
targetting. If they demolish all the city tower blocks within a one mile
radius, it is because they want to.

And both regard innocent civilians as expendable in the service of a
greater
cause.

Haha!! The "I didn't know any better" Defense!!

Now it's The Israeli's fault because they have better weapons and a
more efficient military!!

Good Lord!

Are you missing something?

If you remember, the reason why Israel started attacking Lebanese roads and
bridges was because two Israeli soldiers had been kidnapped/taken prisoner
by Hizbollah. It was not because any Israeli citizens had been hit by
Hizbollah rockets.

Of course Hizbollah are to blame, and of course Hizbollah deserve everything
they, personally, get. And it *still* isn't justified to attack innocent
civilians.

The Todal wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

The Todal wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

The Todal wrote:

If you want to argue "who started it" you could start at any point and
arrive at a different answer. I am not convinced that 12th July is the
right
date to start the chronology. I suspect that the Wikipedia account
largely
mirrors the official Israeli account which is given at
http://www.israel.org/MFA/Terrorism-...06.htm#summary
or
http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/mal...llah_upd1e.pdf

The BBC reports suggest that on 28th May, Hezbollah fired some rockets
onto
Israeli military targets on Israeli soil (Mount Miron) which at that
time
triggered an Israeli response consisting of warplane attacks on
militant
bases in Lebanon. If the Israeli account is accurate, Hezbollah were
mainly
targeting military sites up to 12th July but some of their rockets
fell
on
Israeli civilians, whether by accident or not.

12th July may be the right date to start the chronology, but the year
would probably end in "BC"!!

It's interesting to note that among the abject condemnation of Israel
here, comments such as ".................but
some of their rockets fell on Israel civilians, whether by accident or
not........................." accompanies comments
on Hezbollah! The differential treatment of the two is quite easy to
see.

There is a reason for this.

Hezbollah: terrorists, limited budget and choice of weapons, do not
necessarily have the skill or the technology to aim their rockets
precisely,
probably would have preferred to attack soldiers (major blow to morale of
Israeli military) rather than a few shepherds whom nobody will
particularly
miss, until after Israel started attacking Lebanese cities whereupon it
was
important to show that they could hit Israeli cities.

IDF: sophisticated well-equipped army and air force, does nothing without
careful assessments by highly skilled and well-paid military strategists,
have command of the skies so that they can see precisely what they are
targetting. If they demolish all the city tower blocks within a one mile
radius, it is because they want to.

And both regard innocent civilians as expendable in the service of a
greater
cause.

Haha!! The "I didn't know any better" Defense!!

Now it's The Israeli's fault because they have better weapons and a
more efficient military!!

Good Lord!

Are you missing something?

If you remember, the reason why Israel started attacking Lebanese roads and
bridges was because two Israeli soldiers had been kidnapped/taken prisoner
by Hizbollah. It was not because any Israeli citizens had been hit by
Hizbollah rockets.

Of course Hizbollah are to blame, and of course Hizbollah deserve everything
they, personally, get. And it *still* isn't justified to attack innocent
civilians.

Rockets were fired from Lebanon into Israeli settlements before the
soldiers were
kidnapped. The only reason that no civilians were killed was luck.

No, it isn't justified to "Target" innocent civilians. Something
Hezbollah does
every day, something Israel doesn't do.

If Israel were targetting Innocent civilians, the death toll would be
in the tens of thousands
by now. Realistically, Innocent Civilians have been killed as a
by-product of every war. The only way
to stop that is go back to having the soldiers face-off on a
battlefield again as in the 17th century.

Again, something Hezbollah will run from.

Arthur wrote:
On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 15:07:23 +0100,
wrote:

Haha!! The "I didn't know any better" Defense!!

Not quite. The "I'm doing the best I can with the tools at hand" defence.
Of course they would have liked to hit military tagets, but they have
basic, inaccurate weapons.


Now it's The Israeli's fault because they have better weapons and a
more efficient military!!

Exactly. They have precision tools and they have destroyed the targets
they chose.
When we saw the Red Cross trucks burning, it was because they were
precisely targeted.

Are you serious?? Any reason why Israel would purposely target Red
Cross trucks?

So under your assumption, with their expertise and firepower,
Hospitals, bomb shelters and virtually anywhere that innocent civilians
gather could easily be targetted right? It's a small wonder then that
"only" 300 have died isn't it? With that firepower, and those
intentions I reckon that I could easily have killed at least a Hundred
Thousand by now!!

Perhaps, just maybe, (and this is only a theory!) that they are
actually destroying known Hezbollah strongholds and The deaths are
either terrorists or civilians in the wrong place at the wrong time?