"Sacha" wrote in message
...
On 14/9/06 12:35, in article
, "Bazzler"
wrote:

I've done several of those, especially the first year I got the plot. I
expect you did a couple yourself, no?

Well exactly - I'm afraid I read the list as people being "told off".
There is a way to write these sorts of things which would be much more
helpful and supportive rather than condemnatory. It is unrealistic to
expect brand new allotment gardeners to avoid mistakes and to have
garnered all relevant experience. Also who's to say there is only one
method of doing something - the GW programme on allotments showed a wide
range of practices being used and yet everyone seemed to be able to
grown the stuff they wanted. Isn't that the point?

I don't have an allotment but I worked on my Dad's two allotments for a
number of years so I have a little bit of knowledge and experience
before I get "jumped on" as a "know nothing" person.

But hey, the man who never made a mistake, never made anything.

*ding*
--
Paul C

I agree with Paul, here. I'm still waiting for my first allotment (any
day now) & started reading this thread with some anticipation but it
seems to have decended into a rather unpleasant "tut-tut" listing.

If those more experienced allotmenteers have some tips to offer or
common pitfalls to avoid I'll be extremely grateful, but I'm sure that
the selfish behaviour listed above is in no way dictated by the length
of time someone has had an allotment - rather more due to the sort of
person they are...


Let's get back to basics. Bob did not tut at anyone and didn't describe
selfish behaviour. He described some common errors made by people new to
allotments, as observed by someone very experienced on an allotment. If
I
was a new allotment holder, I'd be grateful to receive some time, labour
and
money saving advice such as this. Personally, I think it would be a good
inclusion in the FAQs. I can't count how many posts we've had here from
now
allotment holders, asking "how do I start" sort of questions.
Remarks about closing gates and not stealing other peoples' produce, which
should be elementary to any half decent person anywhere, were not from
Bob.
Once people have more experience I'm sure they can and will experiment
with
different methods, times of sowing, fertiliser, ground management etc.
but
these basic tips to get you started came from a helpful and knowledgeable
member of urg. We're lucky to have him and if people take offence at
receiving impartial and helpful advice, I can't imagine what they're doing
on a group which is stiff with both.

I've been trying to grow vegetables for about 40 years, but still make
mistakes!

Alan

--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/

"Bob Hobden" wrote in message
...

"Paul Corfield" wrote after "Bob Hobden" wrote in message
...
I though I'd mention this to help any budding allotment growers.

Seen on our site this year...
1. Tomatoes not staked sufficiently strongly for the more exposed open
allotment site so they collapse when covered in fruit, it rains adding
weight and it's windy. Make a sturdy wooden/steel goal post type
structure
and tie the canes to that.
2. Indeterminate Tomatoes not pinched out and allowed to do their own
thing.
3. Pumpkins and other cucurbits planted too close not realising their
ability to grow.
3. Onions planted late and not weeded so they got large spring onions
in
effect as they grew to the light.
4. Tender plants bought from Garden Centres and planted immediately,
much
too early. (they were very lucky we had no late frosts here) The very
end
of May beginning of June is early enough.
5. Runner Beans planted up bamboo canes that are too short and again
not
strong enough to take the weight and wind without sturdier help (wood
or
steel poles) so they all collapse.
6. No compost bin made so weeds are thrown away on a spare plot.
7. No manure used (as far as we could see) so plot will suffer in the
long
term.
8. Too much of one thing planted, probably used the whole packet of
lettuce seeds in one go, so most go to waste.


I've done several of those, especially the first year I got the plot. I
expect you did a couple yourself, no?

Well exactly - I'm afraid I read the list as people being "told off".

Not what was intended and I can't see where you get that idea from.

There is a way to write these sorts of things which would be much more
helpful and supportive rather than condemnatory.

Where in my post was I condemnatory? Please explain.

Please Bob, don't encourage the idiots who do nothing but criticise, your
article was written to help people and offered sensible advice.

Some contributors have egos which are so large they have trouble reaching
the keyboard!

Alan

"Uncle Marvo" wrote in message
...
In reply to Bob Hobden ) who wrote this in
, I, Marvo, say :

I though I'd mention this to help any budding allotment growers.

Seen on our site this year...
1. Tomatoes not staked sufficiently strongly for the more exposed open
allotment site so they collapse when covered in fruit, it rains adding
weight and it's windy. Make a sturdy wooden/steel goal post type
structure and tie the canes to that.
2. Indeterminate Tomatoes not pinched out and allowed to do their own
thing. 3. Pumpkins and other cucurbits planted too close not realising
their
ability to grow.
3. Onions planted late and not weeded so they got large spring onions
in effect as they grew to the light.
4. Tender plants bought from Garden Centres and planted immediately,
much too early. (they were very lucky we had no late frosts here) The
very end of May beginning of June is early enough.
5. Runner Beans planted up bamboo canes that are too short and again
not strong enough to take the weight and wind without sturdier help
(wood or steel poles) so they all collapse.
6. No compost bin made so weeds are thrown away on a spare plot.
7. No manure used (as far as we could see) so plot will suffer in the
long term.
8. Too much of one thing planted, probably used the whole packet of
lettuce seeds in one go, so most go to waste.

Plus tomato canes miles too short for climbers, not anticipating the
weather making the plants grow to nearly six feet! They are still
producing fine tomatoes though, perhaps they like laying on the ground?
Perhaps the only reason why tomatoes are climbed up long poles is "that's
the way we've always done it".

This year I've been growing tomatoes which have grown on the ground, only
cos I was too lazy to go out and tie them up, the ones in the green house
were tied up though, but there were only 6 of them copmpared with at least a
dozen outside, and I find setting canes to be a real pain.

Alan

"Uncle Marvo" wrote in message
...
In reply to La Puce ) who wrote this in
, I, Marvo, say :

Uncle Marvo wrote:
Sheeps?

Oui! Two as well. Isn't that great?! If only I had the land ...

My French friend STILL can't work out the plural of "sheep", and he's been
here for nearly ten years :-)

I'm sure that veggie poo is suitable for composting, but I wouldn't
be sure ... some time ago the dictatorship^Wgovernment said you
weren't supposed to compost tea bags or eggshells, now it seems you
should.

I compost tea bags but not eggshells. I don't want to attract rats. My
oldest cat got bitten by one and nearly died. He killed the rat but
that was very costly in vet bills (for my cat, not the rat). My poor
Figaro had a huge pus ulcer - we didn't noticed soon enough. But he
survived. He's 17.

compost left over curry, myself, and virtually anything else. I
manage to fill a black bag every five weeks, and most of that is
oily rags and the plastic wrappings off fag packets :-)

I'm a hand roller myself. Well done to you for doing just one black
bag. We're four people here, plus a menagerie of pets and I do around
2 black bags/week. I don't put food in my compost - only veg/fruits
peels and garden stuff, paper, carboard but not too exessively on the
later two. You put food on yours? Do you get nocturnal visitors?
You'd get my friend SkipKate if she knew where you lived LOL!!!

I could do less if I tried. Would you believe I bought something from
Waitrose last week (can't remember what it was, might have been two Scotch
Eggs, in a plastic tray-type wrapper WITHOUT a recycle symbol on it. Tut
tut.

I only put veggie food in. The meat always gets eaten :-) Paper and card
go in but I burn it first, so I'm waiting for winter to get rid of the
newspaper mountain (free heat), then the ash goes on the compost, or round
plants to discourage slugs and snails and other freelunchers.

Paper I shred, then it goes on the compost heap, I hope it help to aerate
the heap, card goes for recycling.

Rats are not a problem, the thing is sealed. The rats are not after
compost, they're after rubbish, which is not mine. They are unstoppable!

I've never seen any evidence of rats, but I have no doubt the are there
somewhere.

Alan

"JennyC" wrote in message
...

"K" wrote in message
...
JennyC writes


I have a theory that children's mouths and facial muscles are trained
into
certain positions while they learn the speak in whatever tongue they grow
up
with. That's why it's so hard to learn to speak another language properly
when you are older.

I read somewhere that very young children apparently are able to hear a
whole range of sounds, but they become accustomed to those they hear
every day, and stop being able to hear the ones they don't usually hear
(in the sense that the brain no longer recognises them). So learning a
foreign language later is difficult because the brain has lost the
capacity to hear the sounds that aren't also part of the native language.

Agghh So what on earth is my French going to sound like !

Like an eglish person tryig to speak freanch!

I can speak french perfectly, my favourite phrase is 'Parlae vous Anglais',
writing french is not one of my good points!(:-(

Alan

Jenny


One of my sons had a period of deafness while small. Although this was
corrected, and his results on tests showed him to be able to hear the
whole range of frequencies, the deafness seems to have coincided with the
critical period, and his speech and hearing was consistent with him not
being able to hear a whole range of sounds (basically all the
consonants), even though there was now nothing physically wrong with his
hearing.


--
Kay

"Sacha" wrote in message
...
On 14/9/06 14:41, in article , "michael
adams"
wrote:


"Bob Hobden" wrote in message
...
I though I'd mention this to help any budding allotment growers.

Seen on our site this year...
1. Tomatoes not staked sufficiently strongly for the more exposed open
allotment site so they collapse when covered in fruit, it rains adding
weight and it's windy. Make a sturdy wooden/steel goal post type
structure
and tie the canes to that.
2. Indeterminate Tomatoes not pinched out and allowed to do their own
thing.

That's nothing. Tomatoes were first introduced into the UK in the 16th
century from South America. However up until the early 1800's they were
regarded as poisonous and of decorative interest only*. Both on account
of
their membership of the nightshade family and maybe (guess) the fact that
they're not eaten by any birds or animals. In the UK at least.

You're kidding about birds not eating them, aren't you?! Blackbirds
especially seem to go mad for them!

My problem is slugs where the tomatoes are resting on the ground!

Alan


--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/

On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 21:19:58 GMT, "Alan Holmes"
wrote:


"Bob Hobden" wrote in message
...

[snip]
6. No compost bin made so weeds are thrown away on a spare plot.
7. No manure used (as far as we could see) so plot will suffer in the
long
term.
8. Too much of one thing planted, probably used the whole packet of
lettuce seeds in one go, so most go to waste.


I've done several of those, especially the first year I got the plot. I
expect you did a couple yourself, no?

Well exactly - I'm afraid I read the list as people being "told off".

Not what was intended and I can't see where you get that idea from.

There is a way to write these sorts of things which would be much more
helpful and supportive rather than condemnatory.

Where in my post was I condemnatory? Please explain.

Every one of your comments could have been turned round so that they
didn't sound as if you were telling people off.

Let's try number 6

You wrote "6. No compost bin made so weeds are thrown away on a spare
plot."

An alternative would be "To get rid of weeds and stop them spreading on
spare plots it's a good idea to make a compost heap on your plot early
on in your time on your new plot. The weeds will then rot down for
compost." Longer I will grant you but I think it offers more advice and
is in a more friendly tone.

However it's all academic as it is obvious that I am in a ridiculously
small minority against the long term experts on the group and there is
no point in continuing the debate. You've all decided what is right and
no criticism or comment is permitted judging from the "defence" posts
that sprang up within minutes.

Please Bob, don't encourage the idiots who do nothing but criticise, your
article was written to help people and offered sensible advice.

Oh I'm an idiot now. You know nothing about me. Are these sorts of
comments how you seek to encourage new group participants or lurkers?
Perhaps the group should be renamed uk.rec.gardening.experts.only?

Some contributors have egos which are so large they have trouble reaching
the keyboard!

And I have a large ego - hah! You know nothing about me. I passed
comment which is what I assumed was part of the purpose of a usenet
group.

This "place" really, really is incredible. I've said it before - I
thought gardeners were supposed to be nice people and gentle with it.
This place is the antithesis of that unless your face "fits". How very
wrong you can be.
--
Paul C

Paul Corfield wrote:
gardeners were supposed to be nice people

They are, they are!!!

"K" wrote
Uncle Marvo writes
If you watch a polyglot speak alien languages (something I do often)
you will see that their face changes completely. An indigenous
Englishperson speaking French will make his/her nose "thinner" and
pout.

Yes, I'd come to the same conclusion, from trying to see just how
geordies massacre vowels, and then from trying to reproduce portuguese
sounds. Unfortunately, I have a lousy ear, so although I can pick up
grammar fairly easily, I only get half way through 'kalimera', bom
dia' or whatever before the native speaker responds to me in english!

I remember hearing somewhere that in order to learn how to properly form
some individual sounds in various languages you would have to be exposed
to them in infancy. Otherwise, after a few years the brain loses the
capacity to receive and copy the sound or accent correctly and it
becomes almost impossible to ever master pronouncing it exactly like the
native language speakers.

--
Sue

On 17/9/06 00:47, in article
ws.net, "Sue"
wrote:

snip

I remember hearing somewhere that in order to learn how to properly form
some individual sounds in various languages you would have to be exposed
to them in infancy. Otherwise, after a few years the brain loses the
capacity to receive and copy the sound or accent correctly and it
becomes almost impossible to ever master pronouncing it exactly like the
native language speakers.

A Dutch friend of mine speaks English so perfectly that it's the only way
anyone can tell she's not English. ;-)

--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
I meet many people from other parts of the world who learned English as
a second or third language, in their teens or later, but speak it (
absolutely fluently) with such perfect regional English (or Scottish)
accents you would never guess it was not their mothertongue. Often, that
seems to go hand in hand with a very good musical ear and singing voice.
Janet

We had a man come around to repair our roof here in Normandy and he spoke
fairly clear English but with a strange accent. I thought perhaps he was a
Geordie, but didn't know how to politely ask. My wife however is not so
reticent and waded in "Are you English or French or what?". It turned out he
is French but learnt English while living in Glasgow!
--
David
.... Email address on website http://www.avisoft.co.uk
.... Blog at http://dlts-french-adventures.blogspot.com/

On 17/9/06 15:08, in article , "David
(in Normandy)" wrote:


"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
I meet many people from other parts of the world who learned English as
a second or third language, in their teens or later, but speak it (
absolutely fluently) with such perfect regional English (or Scottish)
accents you would never guess it was not their mothertongue. Often, that
seems to go hand in hand with a very good musical ear and singing voice.
Janet

We had a man come around to repair our roof here in Normandy and he spoke
fairly clear English but with a strange accent. I thought perhaps he was a
Geordie, but didn't know how to politely ask. My wife however is not so
reticent and waded in "Are you English or French or what?". It turned out he
is French but learnt English while living in Glasgow!

The reverse of that happened to my grandfather during the German occupation
of the CIs. A German soldier knocked on the door one night - always a scary
occurrence - to tell them they were showing a light through the blackout.
My grandfather said he'd go and fix it and the German asked my grandfather
how he came to have a Geordie accent. Grandpa replied that although a
Jerseyman by heritage he was born up there and asked how the German
recognised his accent. It turned out that the soldier had been a waiter in
Newcastle before the war! Somehow, that makes a bit of a mockery of the
whole business of war!

--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/

"Sacha" wrote in message
...
On 17/9/06 15:08, in article ,
"David
(in Normandy)" wrote:


"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
I meet many people from other parts of the world who learned English as
a second or third language, in their teens or later, but speak it (
absolutely fluently) with such perfect regional English (or Scottish)
accents you would never guess it was not their mothertongue. Often,
that
seems to go hand in hand with a very good musical ear and singing
voice.
Janet

We had a man come around to repair our roof here in Normandy and he
spoke
fairly clear English but with a strange accent. I thought perhaps he was
a
Geordie, but didn't know how to politely ask. My wife however is not so
reticent and waded in "Are you English or French or what?". It turned
out he
is French but learnt English while living in Glasgow!

The reverse of that happened to my grandfather during the German
occupation
of the CIs. A German soldier knocked on the door one night - always a
scary
occurrence - to tell them they were showing a light through the blackout.
My grandfather said he'd go and fix it and the German asked my grandfather
how he came to have a Geordie accent. Grandpa replied that although a
Jerseyman by heritage he was born up there and asked how the German
recognised his accent. It turned out that the soldier had been a waiter
in
Newcastle before the war!


Nice anecdote.

I remember reading an account of a German barber with a shop
London before the Great War, meeting some of his customers when he
was take prisoner in the trenches. Google was no help but threw
up this -

" Foreman knows his historical facts. That spontaneous truce of Christmas
1914
-- the fraternization, the German Christmas trees in the trenches, the
German
barber giving haircuts in No-Man's-Land --it's all true. Eksteins states
that
the same "sporting spirit is credited with producing the truce..."

http://www.lib.byu.edu/~english/WWI/...en/review.html

And the games of football. All of which were stamped on by the Officers
by all accounts.

....

Somehow, that makes a bit of a mockery of the whole business of war!

....

It's possible to say that everything makes a mockery of war.

Except people have got short memories, and easily fall prey to
propaganda. Whether about bayoneted Belgian babies, being the master
race, or anything else.


michael adams

....


--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/

"Sacha" wrote in message
...
On 17/9/06 15:08, in article ,
"David
(in Normandy)" wrote:


"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
I meet many people from other parts of the world who learned English as
a second or third language, in their teens or later, but speak it (
absolutely fluently) with such perfect regional English (or Scottish)
accents you would never guess it was not their mothertongue. Often,
that
seems to go hand in hand with a very good musical ear and singing
voice.
Janet

We had a man come around to repair our roof here in Normandy and he
spoke
fairly clear English but with a strange accent. I thought perhaps he was
a
Geordie, but didn't know how to politely ask. My wife however is not so
reticent and waded in "Are you English or French or what?". It turned
out he
is French but learnt English while living in Glasgow!

The reverse of that happened to my grandfather during the German
occupation
of the CIs. A German soldier knocked on the door one night - always a
scary
occurrence - to tell them they were showing a light through the blackout.
My grandfather said he'd go and fix it and the German asked my grandfather
how he came to have a Geordie accent. Grandpa replied that although a
Jerseyman by heritage he was born up there and asked how the German
recognised his accent. It turned out that the soldier had been a waiter
in
Newcastle before the war!


Nice anecdote.

I remember reading an account of a German barber with a shop
London before the Great War, meeting some of his customers when he
was take prisoner in the trenches. Google was no help but threw
up this -

" Foreman knows his historical facts. That spontaneous truce of Christmas
1914
-- the fraternization, the German Christmas trees in the trenches, the
German
barber giving haircuts in No-Man's-Land --it's all true. Eksteins states
that
the same "sporting spirit is credited with producing the truce..."

http://www.lib.byu.edu/~english/WWI/...en/review.html

And the games of football. All of which were stamped on by the Officers
by all accounts.

Sorry missed this. The next link down is a piece from the Guardian which
includes this -

quote

A "rest from bullets", as one of their number put it, allowed the troops
to work above ground while improving their often inadequate trenches. Both
sides appreciated the opportunity.
At one point some Tommies, admiring the better progress made by the enemy
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
opposite, went over and asked if they could borrow some of their tools;
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
the Germans complied.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

/quote

http://www.guardian.co.uk/christmas2...624655,00.html

It would be funny, if the following four years weren't so tragic,

....

Somehow, that makes a bit of a mockery of the whole business of war!

....

It's possible to say that everything makes a mockery of war.

Except people have got short memories, and easily fall prey to
propaganda. Whether about bayoneted Belgian babies, being the master
race, or anything else.


michael adams

....


--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/

The message
from Paul Corfield contains these words:

Please Bob, don't encourage the idiots who do nothing but criticise, your
article was written to help people and offered sensible advice.

Oh I'm an idiot now. You know nothing about me. Are these sorts of
comments how you seek to encourage new group participants or lurkers?
Perhaps the group should be renamed uk.rec.gardening.experts.only?

No, you're not! You're actually a very nice and intelligent guy!
(Speaking as one who has actually met you!)

Some contributors have egos which are so large they have trouble reaching
the keyboard!

And I have a large ego - hah! You know nothing about me. I passed
comment which is what I assumed was part of the purpose of a usenet
group.

.....which it is, if only the 'experts' would remember that it isn't their
exclusive group....some come here to learn, too many come here to lecture...

This "place" really, really is incredible. I've said it before - I
thought gardeners were supposed to be nice people and gentle with it.
This place is the antithesis of that unless your face "fits". How very
wrong you can be.

In the main gardeners _are_ very nice, helpful and friendly people...in
real life! Nil desperandum, Paul!

--
AnneJ /\
_/__\_
/( o\
/| // \-'
__ ( o, /\
\\\\) / | / _\
====((__u==(___ )====
//// //
/__)