"Paul Corfield" wrote after:
"Bob Hobden" replied [snip]
6. No compost bin made so weeds are thrown away on a spare plot.
7. No manure used (as far as we could see) so plot will suffer in the
long
term.
8. Too much of one thing planted, probably used the whole packet of
lettuce seeds in one go, so most go to waste.


I've done several of those, especially the first year I got the plot. I
expect you did a couple yourself, no?

Well exactly - I'm afraid I read the list as people being "told off".

Not what was intended and I can't see where you get that idea from.

There is a way to write these sorts of things which would be much more
helpful and supportive rather than condemnatory.

Where in my post was I condemnatory? Please explain.

Every one of your comments could have been turned round so that they
didn't sound as if you were telling people off.

But that is just the point, I was not telling anyone off and I don't think
it sounded like that either, just short and to the point.


Let's try number 6

You wrote "6. No compost bin made so weeds are thrown away on a spare
plot."

An alternative would be "To get rid of weeds and stop them spreading on
spare plots it's a good idea to make a compost heap on your plot early
on in your time on your new plot. The weeds will then rot down for
compost." Longer I will grant you but I think it offers more advice and
is in a more friendly tone.

True, that is what I meant, and I am sorry you feel I used an unfriendy
tone, from where I sit I was just being short and to the point but as I
obviously offended you and perhaps others by that, I appologise.
As I said, I was simply trying to show quite common "mistakes" of new
allotment holders graduating from a back garden so that others might learn.
I was even guilty of some myself years ago when I started.

(snip))

This "place" really, really is incredible. I've said it before - I
thought gardeners were supposed to be nice people and gentle with it.
This place is the antithesis of that unless your face "fits". How very
wrong you can be.

I suspect you have never shown your fruit/veg/flowers or you wouldn't say
that. :-)

Personally I think gardeners/plants people are on the whole more "down to
earth" and in touch with nature and the seasons.

If you critisise someone you must always be prepared for the concequences in
all walks of life and URG is no exception and this is especially true if you
critise a member of a group, any group, any where.

It is true that I have been posting to URG for years and the regulars know
me, I have exchanged seeds/plants with some and some have even met me, the
consequence of that is that some forgive my faults and that is called true
friendship.

So don't retreat Paul, keep posting to URG and you too will get known and
realise we are simply held together by our love for plants & gardens.

--
Regards
Bob H
17mls W. of London.UK

On 17/9/06 19:15, in article , "Janet
Baraclough" wrote:

The message
from Anne Jackson contains these words:

The message
from Paul Corfield contains these words:

I passed
comment which is what I assumed was part of the purpose of a usenet
group.

In that case, you must expect other people to pass comment on your
comments.

.....which it is, if only the 'experts' would remember that it isn't their
exclusive group....some come here to learn, too many come here to lecture...

Anne, perhaps you missed the beginning of the thread. Try reading
Bob's innocent, helpful advice post. (and his subsequent comments). They
are far from "lecturing" or "exclusive" , and certainly not
"condemnatory ".

For years past, a well known usenet troll here has been attempting to
discourage newbies by lying to them (in email and on the group) that
they are unwelcome and unwanted, that the longterm posters are all
"experts" , who will ignore and discourage beginners, and see themselves
as an exclusive elite.

I have never seen a longterm poster here claim to be horticultural
experts, (especially, the very few who are!) and since they endlessly,
patiently cover the same questions over and over again for beginners
and newbies, it's clear they do NOT ignore or discourage beginners and
newbies; the very opposite.
snip
Paul has, just, had his first direct personal experience of
dishonest troll misrepresentation of what he posted. He's observant, he
noticed. When he has observed that same poster lie, twist, and
manipulate other peoples posts countless times, perhaps the truth will
dawn on him.

I hope that example sheds some light for a few others, too. That was real
mischief and luckily, he spotted it.

You have been here a whole lot longer than Paul and if you had time to
read more threads in more detail you could not have missed what has been
going on, who the targets are, what has been done to them and who is
behind it. I'm quite sure you would not knowingly assist a troll
vendetta.

An excellent summation of what is going on, IMO. Like you, I have never
heard one person claim to be an expert, though many clearly are.
I joined this group in 1997 and since then I have seen all the regulars and
old hands exchange information and just about all of them acknowledge that
they've all learned something or other at some time or other - everyone can
and does, whatever level their skill is. I have never, EVER seen one
*genuine* member, not one, suggest that people are unwelcome here because
they are NOT expert but I have certainly seen countless attempts to offer
help, information and guidance.
When I see tragic remarks like "you're not welcome here unless you're an
expert", I wonder what those people who say that (other than the known
trolls) expect the knowledgeable to do. Do the complainers really believe
this nonsense when it is so clear that the experienced hands are trying to
be helpful? Should they not answer questions? Should they pretend they
don't know answers? Should they ignore requests to ID a plant they know and
requests on how to grow it? Should they allow the trolls who continually
posts misinformation and bad advice to continue to do so? What - exactly -
are the helpful people supposed to do for those who ask for help?

--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/

On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 17:52:53 +0100, "Bob Hobden"
wrote:


"Paul Corfield" wrote after:

Let's try number 6

You wrote "6. No compost bin made so weeds are thrown away on a spare
plot."

An alternative would be "To get rid of weeds and stop them spreading on
spare plots it's a good idea to make a compost heap on your plot early
on in your time on your new plot. The weeds will then rot down for
compost." Longer I will grant you but I think it offers more advice and
is in a more friendly tone.

True, that is what I meant, and I am sorry you feel I used an unfriendy
tone, from where I sit I was just being short and to the point but as I
obviously offended you and perhaps others by that, I appologise.
As I said, I was simply trying to show quite common "mistakes" of new
allotment holders graduating from a back garden so that others might learn.
I was even guilty of some myself years ago when I started.

You do not need to apologise - I simply commented on the style as
someone who is learning. There are ways to say things that add context
and meaning for those who are learning - which was the stated intent of
your advice. For the "experts" that may well be stuff that was learnt
years ago but for newbies context and explanation is all important. Not
everything is logical when it comes to the multiple variations of plot
orientation, soil, weather, varieties chosen etc etc that combine to
offer us our hand at growing stuff.

(snip))

This "place" really, really is incredible. I've said it before - I
thought gardeners were supposed to be nice people and gentle with it.
This place is the antithesis of that unless your face "fits". How very
wrong you can be.

I suspect you have never shown your fruit/veg/flowers or you wouldn't say
that. :-)

I've only just started trying to learn and to get things to grow. My
Dad didn't grow to show quality but there was none of the spite between
gardeners in the real world that is so evident on this group.

Personally I think gardeners/plants people are on the whole more "down to
earth" and in touch with nature and the seasons.

Fine but that is no excuse or explanation for what happens in other
threads on this group.

If you critisise someone you must always be prepared for the concequences in
all walks of life and URG is no exception and this is especially true if you
critise a member of a group, any group, any where.

That's fine but I didn't expect the mass "witch hunt" and grouped
defence mechanism which seems par for the course on here.

So don't retreat Paul, keep posting to URG and you too will get known and
realise we are simply held together by our love for plants & gardens.

It's not the holding together that is the problem. It's the pushing
apart that is the problem.
--
Paul C

On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 Janet Baraclough wrote:

I meet many people from other parts of the world who learned English as
a second or third language, in their teens or later, but speak it (
absolutely fluently) with such perfect regional English (or Scottish)
accents you would never guess it was not their mothertongue. Often, that
seems to go hand in hand with a very good musical ear and singing voice.

As a retired music teacher and current professional organist I can
confirm that!

David

--
David Rance http://www.mesnil.demon.co.uk
Fido Address: 2:252/110 writing from Caversham, Reading, UK

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

Fine but that is no excuse or explanation for what happens in other
threads on this group.

This NewsGroup doesn't need to "excuse" or "explain" itself to anyone.

Least of all to you, Mr Corfield.

This NewsGroup is made up of mature adults, all of whom are different
and all of whom have their own personalities. Some people are naturally
friendly, some people are given to rudeness, some people don't
suffer fools gladly. Some people thinks they're the cat's pyjamas
while others are modest to a fault. Some are witty, some are given to
mischief, some are very easily wound up, some are naturally argumentative,
while other people delight in trying to tell other people what
to do.

That Mr Corfield just so happens to be the way people are in life.
And it will also be reflected in the manner and style in which
they post on NewsGroups.

And you would do well to take cognisance of that fact.

Given that people are unable to change their personalities in
order to save their marriages or their careers, neither can they
reasonably be expected to change their personalities just so
as to be given permission, by the likes of people like you, to
post material on Usenet without reproach. More especially when
contributing to a NewsGroup such as this which has a very high
information content. Information which, as on Usenet overall is
being provided on a purely voluntary basis and for no tangible
benefit whatsoever.

Just exactly who do you think you are Mr Corfield, in taking it upon
yourself to dictate to others what material and general approach
you find acceptable on Usenet ? Expecting other people to dance to
your tune ?

This is UseNet, and this is a NewsGroup consisting of mature
adults who are quite capable of looking after themselves without
any guidance or help from the likes of you.

If you can't accept that fact Mr Corfield, that people are free
to be themslves on Usenet whatever the consequences, at least providing
they don't make absolute pests of themselves, then I can only
suggest you look elsewhere for guidance, or whatever else it is that
you're looking for.

....


It's not the holding together that is the problem. It's the pushing
apart that is the problem.
--
Paul C

.....


For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given,
and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his
name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, the Mighty God,
the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace."
Charles Jennens Librettist



michael adams

....

On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 21:47:01 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote:


"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
.. .

Fine but that is no excuse or explanation for what happens in other
threads on this group.

This NewsGroup doesn't need to "excuse" or "explain" itself to anyone.

Least of all to you, Mr Corfield.

Quite true. Well done.

unsubscribes

Another one bites the dust.
--
Paul C

On 17/9/06 22:07, in article ,
"Paul Corfield" wrote:

On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 21:47:01 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote:


"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

Fine but that is no excuse or explanation for what happens in other
threads on this group.

This NewsGroup doesn't need to "excuse" or "explain" itself to anyone.

Least of all to you, Mr Corfield.

Quite true. Well done.

unsubscribes

Another one bites the dust.

Come on, Paul, stick with us! Newsgroups are funny things - people make
alliances or foes but somehow, they don't take too kindly to being told 'how
to be' by relative newcomers. I suppose it reflects on all of us and sounds
like a bit of a finger wag - rather what you objected to in the first place,
eh? I can tell you that I got a lot of stick when I first joined this group
because I didn't conform to the expectations of that time but I can tell
you, too, that it has turned out to be one of the best pieces of natural
stubbornness that I ever exhibited. Stay around.

--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/

"Sacha" wrote in message
...
On 17/9/06 22:07, in article ,
"Paul Corfield" wrote:

On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 21:47:01 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote:


"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

Fine but that is no excuse or explanation for what happens in other
threads on this group.

This NewsGroup doesn't need to "excuse" or "explain" itself to anyone.

Least of all to you, Mr Corfield.

Quite true. Well done.

unsubscribes

Another one bites the dust.

Come on, Paul, stick with us! Newsgroups are funny things - people make
alliances or foes but somehow, they don't take too kindly to being told
'how
to be' by relative newcomers. I suppose it reflects on all of us and
sounds
like a bit of a finger wag - rather what you objected to in the first
place,
eh? I can tell you that I got a lot of stick when I first joined this
group
because I didn't conform to the expectations of that time but I can tell
you, too, that it has turned out to be one of the best pieces of natural
stubbornness that I ever exhibited. Stay around.

I gave up looking up posting histories a while back now. Except in
this case, for some unaccountable reason. The gentleman in question
is no blushing violet IMO. And with a record of 6,635 posts into
uk.rec.motorcycles - out of a total of 7,905 under this name at least,
I very much doubt he's very much of a stranger to the concept of
flame wars either. Even if only at second hand.


michael adams

....






--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/

"Bob Hobden" wrote in message
"Paul Corfield" wrote after:

Every one of your comments could have been turned round so that
they
didn't sound as if you were telling people off.

But that is just the point, I was not telling anyone off and I don't
think
it sounded like that either, just short and to the point.

That's how I read them :-)) But then I'm Australian and we do have
rather a reputation for calling a spade a bloody shovel.

On 18/9/06 00:58, in article , "Janet
Baraclough" wrote:

The message
from Sacha contains these words:

I can tell you that I got a lot of stick when I first joined this group
because I didn't conform to the expectations of that time

(historical note, for those who think we don't give helpful info )
Sacha was posting in the name of her dog . This did cause a small
degree of confusion.

:-)

You suggesting my bite was worse than my bark?! ;-)

--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/

On 18/9/06 05:32, in article
, "Farm1"
please@askifyouwannaknow wrote:

"Bob Hobden" wrote in message
"Paul Corfield" wrote after:

Every one of your comments could have been turned round so that
they
didn't sound as if you were telling people off.

But that is just the point, I was not telling anyone off and I don't
think
it sounded like that either, just short and to the point.

That's how I read them :-)) But then I'm Australian and we do have
rather a reputation for calling a spade a bloody shovel.


IMO, Bob made helpful observations based on his own experiences. At no point
did he seem to me to be saying anything derogatory. I've met Bob and I know
that it would not be his intention to put anyone down, intentionally OR
otherwise.
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/

On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 Sacha wrote:

This NewsGroup doesn't need to "excuse" or "explain" itself to anyone.

Least of all to you, Mr Corfield.

Quite true. Well done.

unsubscribes

Another one bites the dust.

Come on, Paul, stick with us! Newsgroups are funny things - people make
alliances or foes but somehow, they don't take too kindly to being told 'how
to be' by relative newcomers. I suppose it reflects on all of us and sounds
like a bit of a finger wag - rather what you objected to in the first place,
eh? I can tell you that I got a lot of stick when I first joined this group
because I didn't conform to the expectations of that time but I can tell
you, too, that it has turned out to be one of the best pieces of natural
stubbornness that I ever exhibited. Stay around.

And I, too, with my first post on this newsgroup some eleven years ago
drew adverse comments from two people (who are still posting here), one
of whom called me an idiot for suggesting that mistletoe was harmful to
apple trees. Their experience that it isn't in the UK was at variance
with mine that it is in Normandy. I haven't changed my view and they
haven't changed theirs.

But I'm still here because the advantages of this newsgroup far outweigh
the disadvantages. Somehow we seem to take offence at things which are
written down whereas if the same thing were said over a pint in the pub
it would be taken without offence.

I've been corresponding electronically now for over twenty years, first
on the Fidonet and then on the Internet so I suppose I'm used to the way
people write in this medium. It's newcomers that have the most
difficulties - until they understand the medium better.

And my advice? Don't ever criticise people in public. If you want to
tell someone off, or simply disagree with their way of stating things,
take it to email. If there's no email address then just forget it. If
you can't forget it then write your reply - and then delete it without
sending it! Above all, never send anything contentious while you're
still feeling angry.

It works for me! :-)

Oh dear, now I've started dishing out good advice. Perhaps I'd better
dele........

--
David Rance http://www.mesnil.demon.co.uk
Fido Address: 2:252/110 writing from Caversham, Reading, UK

On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 Janet Baraclough wrote:

I can tell you that I got a lot of stick when I first joined this
group
because I didn't conform to the expectations of that time

(historical note, for those who think we don't give helpful info )
Sacha was posting in the name of her dog . This did cause a small
degree of confusion.

:-)

Oh? So what's her real name?

:-)

David

--
David Rance http://www.mesnil.demon.co.uk
Fido Address: 2:252/110 writing from Caversham, Reading, UK

"Anne Jackson" wrote in message
...
The message from "michael adams" contains these
words:

I can assure you that Paul is a gentle soul,

....

And pretty clueless by the looks of things. For someone who's been
posting on NewsGroups as long as he has with 7,905 posts to his credit.

Clueless, and thus strangely fond of crashing into NewsGroups
(i.e not lurking first to get the lay of the land), and criticising
long term posters, with his very first post.

They even put that bit of advice in all the "Newbies" guides to UseNet
I believe. Except he's no newbie, of course.

In other words Ms. Jackson, either your friend has an IQ of 50, he's
an oaf without any manners, or he's a troll.

....

whilst you,
I presume

(given your sig) think of yourself as a christian?

....

Have another look. From the positioning that was clearly intended
to be Mr Corfield's sig. Specially chosen for the occasion.
The "..." was retained to deflect charges of outright forgery.

....

Some ****ing christian, is all I can say!!

Sanctimonious *******, more like.....


How perceptive of you to note that I seemingly regard
Mr Corfield as this NewsGroup's "New Messiah. Charles
Jennens was the Librettist of Handel's "Messiah" BTW.

Oh sorry you didn't ! You thought that was my sig !

Perhaps you'd do better to stick to the shallow end with
your motorcycle group Ms. Jackson. Where that facility
of yours with swear words, can doubtless do you credit.

But I'm sure you must know much ruder words than "****ing" and
"*******", if you really put your mind to it, eh? Or perhaps
you're saving those up for later perhaps ?

The post was intended to draw out Mr Corfield. Instead it drew out
you.

And you lost it. Big time, I'm afraid.



michael adams

....


--
AnneJ /\
_/__\_
/( o\
/| // \-'
__ ( o, /\
\\\\) / | / _\
====((__u==(___ )====
//// //
/__)

On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 michael adams wrote:

Charles Jennens was the Librettist of Handel's "Messiah" BTW.

Actually he wasn't! Jennens didn't write the words, he selected them
from the Bible.

David

--
David Rance http://www.mesnil.demon.co.uk
Fido Address: 2:252/110 writing from Caversham, Reading, UK