On Feb 25, 3:18 pm, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:

if you read ANYTHING
into an English name, you run the risk of confusing yourself at best
and killing yourself and your family at worst.

Horsechestnut being the first example that springs to mind. Although
Deadly Nightshade might be the exception that proves the rule...
--
Rob

In message , Nick Maclaren
writes

In article ,
Stewart Robert Hinsley writes:
|
| But I might be wrong. If you care enough you could drop a note to the
| editor of Taxon and see if they would entertain a proposal to conserve
| Viburnum fragrans Bunge against Viburnum farreri Loisel. (However as
| there are 18,500 hits in Google for "Viburnum farreri" and 1,110 for
| "Viburnum fragrans" it seems that the balance of usage has swung against
| you.)

Hmm. Not when I try it.

Results 1 - 10 of about 52,300 for Viburnum fragrans.
Results 1 - 10 of about 24,300 for Viburnum farreri.

I put quotes round the species names so that only cases where the words
occur in sequence come up; you've looked for pages contain both words,
not necessarily in sequence, so would have found pages referring to
Viburnum species-X and Genus-Y fragrans.

Results can be distorted by keyword spammers, but I don't expect them to
be using pairs of words, rather than single words.

Frankly, I doubt my ability to persuade anyone to open this can of
worms, irrespective of the merits of any proposal :-(


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

In message , Nick Maclaren
writes

In article ,
Stewart Robert Hinsley writes:
|
| DNA data has tomato deep within Solanum - in fact as closer to potatoes
| that are many other unquestioned species of Solanum - which is why the
| botanists have moved tomatoes back into Solanum.

Interesting. It doesn't surprise me - I never did understand why it
was separated, because there is so much in common. Anyway, that is
another "Who gives a damn?" reclassification, as it will cause no
confusion - after all, it is only reverting to an older usage,
except that I think that it was Solanum something-else :-)

| However, Solanum capsicum isn't chilli; it's Jerusalem Cherry. Chillis
| are Capsicum species, and belong to the same group of Solanaceae as
| Solanum, but within any concept of Solanum with any degree of
| acceptance.

Er, Star Capsicum, surely? Jerusalem Cherry is S. pseudocapsicum in
all my books. Or have the species been merged?

Perhaps I shouldn't believe all I read on the web, but hits for "Solanum
capsicum" were either coming up with Jerusalem Cherry, or wtih a list of
generic names. Maybe this is another case of the vagaries of vernacular
names. In any case Solanum capsicum is not a chilli.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

In message , Nick Maclaren
writes

In article . com,
"Rob Hamadi" writes:
|
| Thanks. It seems to me from what you've explained that it's just* a
| matter of learning the "grammar" of the classification system, then
| expanding one's vocabulary. The fact that many of the words are Latin
| is, to some extent, a red herring.

Precisely. They are semi-systematic gibberish, as distinct from the
English names, which are often total gibberish - if you read ANYTHING
into an English name, you run the risk of confusing yourself at best
and killing yourself and your family at worst.

You mean like an apple is edible and a thorn-apple is deadly? Or, IIRC,
one plant called a may-apple has an edible fruit, and the other a
poisonous fruit.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:
In message , Les Hemmings
writes
Sacha wrote:

Er, yes. ;-) I'll feel better when the aspirin start to work.

Ahaaa! Aspirin, made from Salicylic acid, which is made from
Salicin, which is an extract from the bark of...... (drum roll.... )
Salix alba! (White Willow)

Not to mention that the spirin part is a reference to Spiraea.

Even that has changed from Spiraea ulmaria to Filipendula ulmaria!


Les

Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:

However, Solanum capsicum isn't chilli; it's Jerusalem Cherry. Chillis
are Capsicum species, and belong to the same group of Solanaceae as
Solanum, but within any concept of Solanum with any degree of
acceptance.


You're right.... and the error started out here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solanum. See the entry under "Species" for S.
capsicum. It's even a link to the page for the genus Capsicum. I was on
autopilot i think... saw Capsicum and Chilli together and missed the
difference between Solanaceae and Solanum.

Perhaps a wiki edit is in order!

Les

--
Remove Frontal Lobes to reply direct.


"Oh Bother!" said the Borg, "We've assimilated Pooh!"

"That's 10 times I've explained binary to you. I won't tell you a 3rd
time!"


http://armsofmorpheus.blogspot.com/

http://www.richarddawkins.net/index.php


Les Hemmings a.a #2251 SA

In message , Les Hemmings
writes

Perhaps a wiki edit is in order!

Done.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

On 25/2/07 15:38, in article ,
"Alan Holmes" wrote:


"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
On 25/2/07 10:03, in article lid, "Stewart
Robert
Hinsley" wrote:

In message , BoyPete
writes
snip
Yes, I understand that now. Still, it's very off-putting to the likes of
me
to see all that Latin in a post, and I tend to skip them.....possibly
missing some useful info.

Botanical names are no harder, in principle, to cope with than
vernacular names. All you have to do is not let them intimidate you.

I'm guessing that for some people it's to do with pronunciation, too. But
if you break it down into chewable syllables, it's much easier. And as to
the *correct* way to pronounce things I wouldn't even begin to consider
that
as off putting because there seem to be as many variations in that field
as
there are plants to learn about. It's the old CLEMatis opposed to
CleMAYtis
thing and doesn't matter a jot, IMO, except as a bit of fun to argue
about.
;-)

A bit like the presant pronunsiation of Beaconsfield, which is a place where
they had a beacon, but the 'posh' people call it beckons-field as in someone
trying to get your attention, but I always refer to it as a place where
there was a beacon!

Ray, who is an Essex man, says much the same about people pronouncing
Theydon Bois with 'bois' as in French, whereas the locals calls it Theydon
Boys!
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)

"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
On 25/2/07 15:38, in article ,
"Alan Holmes" wrote:


"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
On 25/2/07 10:03, in article lid, "Stewart
Robert
Hinsley" wrote:

In message , BoyPete
writes
snip
Yes, I understand that now. Still, it's very off-putting to the likes
of
me
to see all that Latin in a post, and I tend to skip them.....possibly
missing some useful info.

Botanical names are no harder, in principle, to cope with than
vernacular names. All you have to do is not let them intimidate you.

I'm guessing that for some people it's to do with pronunciation, too.
But
if you break it down into chewable syllables, it's much easier. And as
to
the *correct* way to pronounce things I wouldn't even begin to consider
that
as off putting because there seem to be as many variations in that field
as
there are plants to learn about. It's the old CLEMatis opposed to
CleMAYtis
thing and doesn't matter a jot, IMO, except as a bit of fun to argue
about.
;-)

A bit like the presant pronunsiation of Beaconsfield, which is a place
where
they had a beacon, but the 'posh' people call it beckons-field as in
someone
trying to get your attention, but I always refer to it as a place where
there was a beacon!

Ray, who is an Essex man, says much the same about people pronouncing
Theydon Bois with 'bois' as in French, whereas the locals calls it Theydon
Boys!
--
It amuses me the way the toffs pronounce Aldeburgh. The locals pronounce it
"Ollbruh".
Regarding the latin botanical names, you should hear some of the distortions
in pronunciation that USian academics come up with. I've been to science
conferences where the USians distort one way, the Brits another and the
Europeans yet another (the latter being close to correct, of course).
Graham

"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
On 25/2/07 15:38, in article ,
"Alan Holmes" wrote:


"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
On 25/2/07 10:03, in article lid, "Stewart
Robert
Hinsley" wrote:

In message , BoyPete
writes
snip
Yes, I understand that now. Still, it's very off-putting to the likes
of
me
to see all that Latin in a post, and I tend to skip them.....possibly
missing some useful info.

Botanical names are no harder, in principle, to cope with than
vernacular names. All you have to do is not let them intimidate you.

I'm guessing that for some people it's to do with pronunciation, too.
But
if you break it down into chewable syllables, it's much easier. And as
to
the *correct* way to pronounce things I wouldn't even begin to consider
that
as off putting because there seem to be as many variations in that field
as
there are plants to learn about. It's the old CLEMatis opposed to
CleMAYtis
thing and doesn't matter a jot, IMO, except as a bit of fun to argue
about.
;-)

A bit like the presant pronunsiation of Beaconsfield, which is a place
where
they had a beacon, but the 'posh' people call it beckons-field as in
someone
trying to get your attention, but I always refer to it as a place where
there was a beacon!

Ray, who is an Essex man, says much the same about people pronouncing
Theydon Bois with 'bois' as in French, whereas the locals calls it Theydon
Boys!
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)

That proves my theory that Essex boys are just as misguided as Essex
girls:-)

In message , Sacha
writes
On 25/2/07 15:38, in article ,
"Alan Holmes" wrote:


"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
On 25/2/07 10:03, in article lid, "Stewart
Robert
Hinsley" wrote:

In message , BoyPete
writes
snip
Yes, I understand that now. Still, it's very off-putting to the likes of
me
to see all that Latin in a post, and I tend to skip them.....possibly
missing some useful info.

Botanical names are no harder, in principle, to cope with than
vernacular names. All you have to do is not let them intimidate you.

I'm guessing that for some people it's to do with pronunciation, too. But
if you break it down into chewable syllables, it's much easier. And as to
the *correct* way to pronounce things I wouldn't even begin to consider
that
as off putting because there seem to be as many variations in that field
as
there are plants to learn about. It's the old CLEMatis opposed to
CleMAYtis
thing and doesn't matter a jot, IMO, except as a bit of fun to argue
about.
;-)

A bit like the presant pronunsiation of Beaconsfield, which is a place where
they had a beacon, but the 'posh' people call it beckons-field as in someone
trying to get your attention, but I always refer to it as a place where
there was a beacon!

Ray, who is an Essex man, says much the same about people pronouncing
Theydon Bois with 'bois' as in French, whereas the locals calls it Theydon
Boys!
Having lived near there, I can endorse that. However, I have never
heard anyone refer to it as Theydon Bois (as in French).
--
June Hughes

"Dave Poole" wrote in message
oups.com...
Alan Holmes wrote:

Are there latin names for such things as sprouts, peas, cabbage, carrots,
strawberries, runner beans and sweet corn?

Brassica oleracea 'gemmifera', Pisum sativum, Brassica oleracea,
Daucum carota, Fragaria x ananasa, Phaseolus coccinea, Zea mays.

But if there are please do not confuse me!

Oh sorry Alan, I do apologise. It sort of slipped out ... a bit like
Rupert's Amorphophallus :-o


David please keep quiet about my Amorphophallus otherwise I might reveal
full details of your huge promiscuous banana:-)

In article ,
Stewart Robert Hinsley writes:
|
| I put quotes round the species names so that only cases where the words
| occur in sequence come up; you've looked for pages contain both words,
| not necessarily in sequence, so would have found pages referring to
| Viburnum species-X and Genus-Y fragrans.

Oops. Yes. I am not sure that it proves what it seems to, from the
first few pages of hits. Web page counts are very biassed towards
organisations that produce Web pages, and there are far more hits of
an academic botanic nature than of a horticultural one. What was the
average number of readers of an academic paper again?[*] But I assert
that there are more horticultural references to that species than
strictly botanic ones.

But, even allowing for that, it does seem likely that the balance has
definitely shifted (and probably did about 20 years back), which is a
strong argument that changing back again now would do more harm than
good!

[*] To non-academics, one survey found it was 3. Including the
referees! I can't remember which field or where that was published.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 25/2/07 18:15, in article , "Rupert (W.Yorkshire)"
wrote:


"Dave Poole" wrote in message
oups.com...
Alan Holmes wrote:

Are there latin names for such things as sprouts, peas, cabbage, carrots,
strawberries, runner beans and sweet corn?

Brassica oleracea 'gemmifera', Pisum sativum, Brassica oleracea,
Daucum carota, Fragaria x ananasa, Phaseolus coccinea, Zea mays.

But if there are please do not confuse me!

Oh sorry Alan, I do apologise. It sort of slipped out ... a bit like
Rupert's Amorphophallus :-o


David please keep quiet about my Amorphophallus otherwise I might reveal
full details of your huge promiscuous banana:-)

You should see his Ensete. It's got a label on it, too......

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)

In article ,
"Cerumen" wrote:

"BoyPete" wrote in message
...
I've lurked for ages, just posting occasionally. I do hope my pond
orientated posts don't annoy. My garden is about 20ft square, nearly half
is pond now. Most people here seem to be 'real' gardeners, something I'd
love to be if I had the room! I dream of retiring to a large old house
with half an acre..........yeah.....dream on. In the past, I've grown
carrots, Swede, peas, runner beans, lettuce etc, but until recently,
especially sweet corn......great picked and straight on the BBQ Now, I
only have pots Something which bugs me, is the use of the Latin names
for plants. I realise that if you are really into gardening, these things
are important, but to the likes of me........an interested wannabe, they
are meaningless. It would be nice if folk could call plants by their
'common' name perhaps with the Latin in brackets? What do you think?
Thanks for a great friendly group.

Yes both latin and common names would be best but the latin names do serve a
purpose in that they positively identify what is being referred to whereas
common names can mislead. One good example is swede and turnip, which are
transposed by some people in different parts of the world. I'm not about to
start an argument about which is which but with the latin names there can be
no argument.

You'll not be very welcome here if you don't want to start
an argument. The whole point of this newsgroup is to propagate
vile and rancorous arguments. The "gardening" bit in the title
is simply a screen.