The message
from "tpow" contains these words:

it's a strange thing that gamekeeper argument......

he breeds thousands more birds than would ever naturally breed.......for
them to be shot by the more financially adept society. Some are clean kills
some are wounded.

But then when a natural beast comes along be it a Fox, Crow, Jay or Magpie
he gets ****ed cos it's tacking his eggs or birds..........so he calls them
vermine.

The Magpie he will trap and hang on a fence by its feet, still alive while
it squakes to warn off its fellow family members, until it
dies...........some humanity there I dont think.......dont tell me
they dont
do this because I DO KNOW they do.

I've never known a keeper do that, and I've known a few...

Indeed, I'm a part-time keeper myself.

What you are saying is tantamount to libel. And, I wouldn't think you'd
know the truth if it hit you in the face.

so while a Fox kills more than he needs, so does a
gamekeeper............but
inhumainly.

The idea of shooting driven game is that the Guns, assuming they are any
good, shoot birds coming towards them, resulting in a headshot, and a
much higher ratio of instant kills to woundings than a Gun who is
walking-up, and where the bird gets an arseful of lead.

You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

--
Rusty
Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk
Separator in search of a sig

The message
from Alan contains these words:

Inappropriate snip

Well, I'd agree about that!

Why is it that the 'final solution' is suggested for foxes but when
people ask about other vermin such as the cat a different approach is
always suggested. Cats do a lot more damage in an urban environment than
foxes ever will.

I don't know many gamekeepers who have a lot of affection for cats, and
that's not for any damage a cat will do to stock, but their effect on
songbirds.

If you have problems with urban foxes the solution is to trap them and
release them back into the countryside where they truly belong.

This is the sort of nonsense which shows where you are coming from.

a) A town

b) Total ignorance

Urban foxes live by scavenging. Transfer them into the countryside and
they die of starvation if no-one shoots them first.

Local
fox lovers have had a recent mass release of urban foxes in North
Dengie area with no reported complaints from the locals. This appears
to be an ideal win win solution for the cats problem - the cat is
removed from urban gardens where it is not wanted and the cats are not
killed in the process!

talk yto a gamekeeper of a MFH, or someone who knows foxes.

But I doubt if you'd listen.

--
Rusty
Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk
Separator in search of a sig

The message
from Tim Perry contains these words:

Rusty, there are more ways than 1 to interpret most things.

Please give attributions - your posts are unintelligible.

--
Rusty
Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk
Separator in search of a sig

"Alan" wrote in message
...
In message , Rusty Hinge 2
wrote
The message
from Tim Perry contains these
words:

Hi, I am a bit of a fan of the fox, I envy them, if I could be just
half as good a hunter I'd be as fat as lard !!

Aye. And kill and kill and kill and kill

Inappropriate snip


Why is it that the 'final solution' is suggested for foxes

Because they have no predators except man. Years ago there would not have
been a problem with hens being killed in the day. Foxes only came out at
night and if you shut your hens up at dusk they would have been safe. Foxes
were afraid of humans then.
Now, stupidly, it seems from the TV programs that it's nice to feed them and
then they realise the humans are not to be feared. That's a bad idea, leads
to them being around in the daytime and getting into conflict with people
who keep chickens and are rightly annoyed by a daytime fox killing the birds
they thought were safe.




but when
people ask about other vermin such as the cat a different approach is
always suggested. Cats do a lot more damage in an urban environment than
foxes ever will.

That's a whole different kettle of fish. Cats are people's pets.

If you have problems with urban foxes the solution is to trap them and
release them back into the countryside where they truly belong. Local fox
lovers have had a recent mass release of urban foxes in North Dengie area
with no reported complaints from the locals.

NO, NO, NO. It's just passing the problem on to yet another poultry keeper
who will then get his birds killed in the daytime.
Or, like happened here when I suspect the local council were doing this a
few fields away I caught a fox every few days in the catch alive trap. It
was not a benefit to them to be released near here. They were used to
scavenging on takeaways and discarded chips. I suppose they were hungry for
a few days when they came sniffing around round my birds in the countryside.
Too bad. A 22 bullet took care of them in case anyone thinks there will be
a happy ending for advocating that city foxes should be released "into the
countryside, where they belong"
We do not want your foxes, thank you very much..

The message
from Tim Perry contains these words:
Alan;812051 Wrote:

Why is it that the 'final solution' is suggested for foxes but when
people ask about other vermin such as the cat a different approach is
always suggested. Cats do a lot more damage in an urban environment
than
foxes ever will.

The cat, (another foreign import),

Well, the domestic moggie, anyway. There *ARE* indigenous wild cats, and
they are far more lethal hunters than feral pets. They are protected,
thank goodness.

Many (many) years ago when I was a gillie on a deerstalking estate in
Inverness-shire, I decided on a Sunday (no stalking on a Sunday) to
investigate a great heap of boulders at the bottom of a precipice on
Creag Meggidh, some of the rocks were the size of half a house.

The lower half of the heap was covered with smaller fallen stones,
gravel, earth and peat, which meant one could climb down deep beneath
the 'ground' level.

Hoping to find interesting things - bones, stone tools perhaps, even
weapons stashed after the (17)'45, I started to descend.

I heard the sound of kittens...

I'll tell you, I came out of there one whole lot quicker than I went in.

affects both town and country
alike,
exacting a heavy toll upon our native songbirds every year.
If fact, were it not for the foxes, we might be up to our knees in
semi-feral moggies.

I think that is a bit of an exaggeration, but almost a valid point.

But the situation is somewhat different, they are not a native wild
species, and at some point were allegedly someones domestic pet,
ie someone was responsible for it.

Unfortunately, cats don't have owners, they have servants.

O.K., make it illegal to pass on or sell any cat that has not been
'doctored',
stop them breeding out of control.

Now, I wouldn't quarrel with that, but I rather think that if anyone
tried, they'd wish rather that they'd stirred a hornets' nest with a big
stick...

--
Rusty
Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk
Separator in search of a sig

In message , Christina Websell
wrote

people ask about other vermin such as the cat a different approach is
always suggested. Cats do a lot more damage in an urban environment than
foxes ever will.

That's a whole different kettle of fish. Cats are people's pets.

They can only be regarded as pets on the owners own premises or if they
are kept fully under control elsewhere. The problem is that the majority
of irresponsible 'owners' do not control their so called pets.

If you have problems with urban foxes the solution is to trap them and
release them back into the countryside where they truly belong. Local fox
lovers have had a recent mass release of urban foxes in North Dengie area
with no reported complaints from the locals.

NO, NO, NO.
We do not want your foxes, thank you very much..

Double standards yet again. You appear to think it is wrong to pass a
fox onto someone else but you defend cat 'owners' who do exactly the
same! The release of a few hundred urban foxes to the Essex countryside
per year is insignificant compared to the cat problem.

To any poultry keepers I offer the same advice to you that is so often
offered here to anyone who complains about cats. It up to YOU to spend
lots of money to humanely keep foxes off of your own property.
--
Alan
news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com

"Rusty Hinge 2" wrote in message
k...
The message
from "tpow" contains these words:

it's a strange thing that gamekeeper argument......

he breeds thousands more birds than would ever naturally breed.......for
them to be shot by the more financially adept society. Some are clean
kills
some are wounded.

But then when a natural beast comes along be it a Fox, Crow, Jay or
Magpie
he gets ****ed cos it's tacking his eggs or birds..........so he calls
them
vermine.

The Magpie he will trap and hang on a fence by its feet, still alive
while
it squakes to warn off its fellow family members, until it
dies...........some humanity there I dont think.......dont tell me
they dont
do this because I DO KNOW they do.

I've never known a keeper do that, and I've known a few...

Indeed, I'm a part-time keeper myself.

What you are saying is tantamount to libel. And, I wouldn't think you'd
know the truth if it hit you in the face.

so while a Fox kills more than he needs, so does a
gamekeeper............but
inhumainly.

The idea of shooting driven game is that the Guns, assuming they are any
good, shoot birds coming towards them, resulting in a headshot, and a
much higher ratio of instant kills to woundings than a Gun who is
walking-up, and where the bird gets an arseful of lead.

You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

--
Rusty
Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk
Separator in search of a sig


and you would tell the truth of course...............not.

part time is not full time..........like some of the guns shooting "at" the
birds.

O.K., Rusty, is that better,
I didn't realize I was making it too complicated for you to follow.

I don't think shifting a problem onto someone else is a fair or
viable solution, and it's true that urban foxes would have a hard
time if dumped into the countryside.

Irresponsible pet owners are a nuisance. As I said earlier I've had
more than my fair share of 'Fido' chasing my sheep.

Point of interest, when I observed a fox passing through a field of
ewes with lambs, the ewes seemed unconcerned, but let a dog
into that field - utter panic.

In all fairness, I have to say that farmers from 'up north' tell me quite
a different story, so perhaps the northern foxes are more aggressive.

So, without everyone getting too shirty and worked up, I can only
repeat that if you choose to keep anything, for pet or production,
you are responsible for its welfare, and you have a duty to see that
it is properly fed, watered, and securely housed.

But that does not give you the excuse to exterminate every other
creature, just so you can save a few quid on suitable containment.

I'm sure that it's not beyond man to use his intelligence and find a
more rational solution.

It's true that foxes have few natural predators now. Perhaps if DEFRA
do reintroduce the wolf, the fox population might suffer a decline.
In the US they find that the wolf displaces the coyote, the coyote
displaces the fox. But will people in 20 years time be wanting to wipe
out the 'big bad wolf'.

The message
from Tim Perry contains these words:
Rusty Hinge 2;812194 Wrote:
The message
from Tim Perry contains these
words:
-
Rusty, there are more ways than 1 to interpret most things.-

Please give attributions - your posts are unintelligible.


O.K., Rusty, is that better,

Much. Thanks.

I didn't realize I was making it too complicated for you to follow.

Life's too short, and my feet aren't touching the ground ATM.

I don't think shifting a problem onto someone else is a fair or
viable solution, and it's true that urban foxes would have a hard
time if dumped into the countryside.

Irresponsible pet owners are a nuisance. As I said earlier I've had
more than my fair share of 'Fido' chasing my sheep.

It's more often several 'Fidos' when they do it off their own bat (not
always, I'd agree), but fairly locally, there was one person (for want
of a better description) who bred lurchers from (it is reported) bull
mastiffs and Irish wolfhounds, drove out into the countryside with them
and used them to bring down sheep and calves to put in his freezer.

It's legal to shoot the dogs if caught in delicto - rhetoric but why
not the owner? /rhetoric

Point of interest, when I observed a fox passing through a field of
ewes with lambs, the ewes seemed unconcerned, but let a dog
into that field - utter panic.

In all fairness, I have to say that farmers from 'up north' tell me
quite
a different story, so perhaps the northern foxes are more aggressive.

Eeee lad, life's 'ard oop north, 'appen.

So, without everyone getting too shirty and worked up, I can only
repeat that if you choose to keep anything, for pet or production,
you are responsible for its welfare, and you have a duty to see that
it is properly fed, watered, and securely housed.

But that does not give you the excuse to exterminate every other
creature, just so you can save a few quid on suitable containment.

Man is just as much part of the environment as any other creature, and
it's unfortunate that said creature has exterminated anything which
might have kept foxes down to sensible numbers - wolves, for example,
and possibly, bears.

As it is, foxes are too numerous, and increasing in numbers all the
time, at the same time as other wildlife is on the decline.

I wonder if there might be some correlation there?

I'm sure that it's not beyond man to use his intelligence and find a
more rational solution.

·243

It's true that foxes have few natural predators now. Perhaps if DEFRA
do reintroduce the wolf, the fox population might suffer a decline.
In the US they find that the wolf displaces the coyote, the coyote
displaces the fox. But will people in 20 years time be wanting to wipe
out the 'big bad wolf'.

Wolf rays!

Even in Russia and areas of the former Soviet Union most authorities
discount any direct threat to man from wolves. A few might be a good
idea in the Highlands, as the red deer and roe deer populations aren't
sustainable by winter flora. (I did put 'winta florer' - ToBAGO - but -
we're not in the Shed...)

--
Rusty
Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk
Separator in search of a sig

In message , Rusty Hinge
2 wrote

As it is, foxes are too numerous, and increasing in numbers all the
time, at the same time as other wildlife is on the decline.

I wonder if there might be some correlation there?

Or what about cats kill everything and a few of them provide food for
foxes?

If foxes are responsible for killing all the wildlife the situation
would be self regulating as their food source disappears. There is a
better correlation between the activities of man, including pet
ownership, and the decline of some wildlife.

Next you will be saying that Bovine Tuberculosis is spread by badgers
and not by cows that are so inbred to make them highly susceptible to
the disease.

--
Alan
news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com

I have to agree with this bit of your comments, Alan, up to a point.
Predators cannot increase beyond the extent that there are enough
prey species to support them, fair enough.

But there is nothing to prevent them from increasing the range of
species that they prey upon. The bigger the range, the more foxes
it can support.

Man has introduced several things that foxes now include in their diet,
(rabbits, domestic cats, pheasants, chickens) that were not originally
available to them, so we are to blame there.

At the same time we have destroyed any natural predator they may
have had, another lack of foresight on our part.

We are very good at meddling with things we don't understand, like
the natural order of things, then we cry like spoiled kids when our plans
go pear shaped.

Shooting is not a viable long term solution, better to find some way to
redress the natural balance, but in order to do this we will need a far
better understanding of what we are dealing with. This will require
those on both sides of the argument to put aside their predisposition
for rhetoric and dogma.

The message
from Alan contains these words:

Next you will be saying that Bovine Tuberculosis is spread by badgers
and not by cows that are so inbred to make them highly susceptible to
the disease.

I have no idea how bovine TB is spread - whether badgers and cattle are
infected from the same source, whether cattle are infected by badgers,
or whether badgers are infected by cattle - and I can't see any evidence
that anyone elde knows for certain, either.

--
Rusty
Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk
Separator in search of a sig

We use a very good sonic fox deterrent and an electric fence wire. This is mostly to keep them away from our chickens.

I control foxes for a living in North & East London areas. If anyone needs any assistance, I would be please to offer users of "Gardenbanter" a 10% discount on a trapping cycle. For more information, my website is www.pestgo4u.com.

Being a professional, I am licenced, certified, trained and hold all necessary equipment. I am definately not 'the man down the pub'!

It is illegal to poison foxes are use non-approved methods to control or repel them.

It is also illegal to release trapped foxes under The Abandonment Act 1960, therefore all trapped foxes will be humanely dispatched and taken away for clinical waste disposal.