I have just cut the lawn and cleared a bit of overhanging shrubbery at my
daughter's place (she rents it out ATM and we were letting a tradesman in).
Took me about 30 minutes.

The tenants, 30 and below, show absolutely no interest in the garden and so
do not maintain it.

This does not bother my daughter because she has no interest in the garden
either.

Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of neglecting a garden it did make us
ponder about "the younger generation".
[Just a minute, when did we stop being "the younger generation"?]

Her tenants can afford to buy, but don't want to because they don't want the
responsibility.
They still seem to live as students with the same short term view of
accomodation as somewhere to dump stuff between work and socialising.
This is not uncommon, from talking to other "Baby Boomers" about their kids.
Not many seem to settle into the life we were lead to expect - married,
kids, good job for life.
Not that this "dream" is practical now; jobs and carreers are not expected
to be long term and life expectancy is much longer so everything seems to
have an air of impermanence. Marriage and kids has gone down the priority
list for many. Expecting to have to work until you are 70 or more must be
quite daunting.

Please note that I do not criticise people for not following the route we
were encouraged to take. The world is a very different place and each
generation makes their own decisions.

However gardening seems to be tied in to a focus on the home and a
willingness to spend time at home working on it. If life is so busy that
there is no spare time and energy to maintain your home and garden then
something has got to give.

So to finally get to the point.

How many urgles (contributors and lurkers) are aged 30 and below?
Is gardening as popular as it always was (the amount of stuff in the sheds
does suggest a strong demand) or are most of the people gardening Baby
Boomers and the next decade or so, who bought houses before the last couple
of the housing booms?

Has the extended period in education (did we ever get to 50% going to
University instead of 5-10%) and the massive availability of electronic
consumer goods and availability of various entertainments given the 30-
generation a whole new set of priorities which render serious gardening a
waste of valuable time?

Just wondering (and not too seriously) :-)

Cheers

Daver

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

On Wed, 8 Jun 2011 09:01:10 +0100, "David WE Roberts"
wrote:

pruned

How many urgles (contributors and lurkers) are aged 30 and below?
Is gardening as popular as it always was (the amount of stuff in the sheds
does suggest a strong demand) or are most of the people gardening Baby
Boomers and the next decade or so, who bought houses before the last couple
of the housing booms?

Has the extended period in education (did we ever get to 50% going to
University instead of 5-10%) and the massive availability of electronic
consumer goods and availability of various entertainments given the 30-
generation a whole new set of priorities which render serious gardening a
waste of valuable time?

Just wondering (and not too seriously) :-)

Cheers

Daver

I've always been somewhat forgetful when it comes to birthdays - even
forgetting my own occasionally. I think, over the years, I've
forgotten my birthday about 30 times so now consider myself to be
around 27.

I had my first "garden plot" before I started school - my little bit
with a fence with a gate around it - ok, made with bamboo canes and
string but it was mine. By the time I was 7, I'd acquired a larger
chunk of the garden and by 12 had a decent veg patch going. My mother
said she caught the gardening bug from me, rather than the other way
round. Dad was only interested in football and regularly took me along
to matches; I could never understand what the excitement was all
about.

So clearly I didn't acquite my taste for gardening from my parents,
nor did I follow the lead in becoming a sport fanatic (rugby aside).
Nor did I become a gardener just because houses generally have gardens
attached - I was too young to appreciate that when I started.

I have neighbours whose idea of "gardening" is to get a handyman in
now and again to do whatever. But their kids (all in the 10-12 age
group) are regularly out weeding, cutting the lawn and having a go at
pruning shrubs and, it seems, because they like doing it rather than
because they're told to do it. There's even the occasional argument
over whose turn it is to cut the grass!

So I don't think there's any great social trend here. There are people
of all ages who just like doing something so they do it. And they'll
continue to find time to do it because they like doing it.

I'm 37. I bought the house I currently live in about a week before I was
30. Before that I lived in rented flats and houses, which either didn't
have a garden, or I had no time or enthusiasm to deal with.

When I rented a house in Newcastle I did attempt to plant some flowers,
which the landlady mowed over because I wasn't keeping the lawn mowed enough
for her. And I planted some courgette plants at the back of the garden
which died because I was never home during daylight to look after them (long
work hours, rarely at home during the weekends)

So yes. Probably. :-)

wrote:

I'm 37. I bought the house I currently live in about a week before I was
30. Before that I lived in rented flats and houses, which either didn't
have a garden, or I had no time or enthusiasm to deal with.

I'm 71, and in the American Diaspora, to take this with several grains of
salt:
I've always gardened, as did my parents in a suburban location on a
smallish plot.
A data point, perhaps: this July will mark my 10th trip to the Seed
Saver's Exchange annual campout/convention in northeast Iowa (north-central
U.S.). When I first went, the participants were mostly my age, but
following a change in leadership a few years ago, I notice a lot of folks
in their thirties, and a lot with small children; certainly a hopeful sign.
The programs there now have a lot of kid-friendly events.
(Political warning)
It seems that whenever there's an economic downturn or increased concerns
over mass-produced food, there's an increase in local veg gardening and
particularly heirloom seed preservation. I think of it as an earthy facet
of "Fahrenheit 451:"
"I'm Macomber rutabaga and Brandywine tomato!"


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/4 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

"David WE Roberts" wrote (SNIP))
I have just cut the lawn and cleared a bit of overhanging shrubbery at my
daughter's place (she rents it out ATM and we were letting a tradesman
in). Took me about 30 minutes.

The tenants, 30 and below, show absolutely no interest in the garden and
so do not maintain it.

This does not bother my daughter because she has no interest in the garden
either.

Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of neglecting a garden it did make us
ponder about "the younger generation".
[Just a minute, when did we stop being "the younger generation"?]


I think it may partly be the lack of the old Protestant Work Ethic, most of
the older generation were sent to Sunday School and learnt there that they
had a social responsibility and that every aspect of life was about work and
if you happened to enjoy the work lucky you. A lot of younger people seem to
believe life is for enjoyment and if you are not having fun something is
wrong.
I can't say which is right and which is wrong.
That said, that is a generalisation, we have some youngsters on our
allotment, some in their 30's and at least a couple of plot holders in their
20's. Some seem to have a problem with time, especially those with older
children, but then they are at work so only have weekends and they have a
lot to cram into the weekend.
One young couple probably still in their 20's are good gardeners and I
suspect the husband learnt it from someone (an old codger!) by the way he
gardens, certainly not from a book.
Another rather good looking young Mum is doing a superb job on a very
neglected plot but then her parents run a locally well known plant shop but
she (and her sister) are putting in a lot of time and effort.

--
Regards
Bob Hobden
W.of London. UK

On Jun 8, 9:01*am, "David WE Roberts"
wrote:
I have just cut the lawn and cleared a bit of overhanging shrubbery at my
daughter's place (she rents it out ATM and we were letting a tradesman in).
Took me about 30 minutes.

The tenants, 30 and below, show absolutely no interest in the garden and so
do not maintain it.

This does not bother my daughter because she has no interest in the garden
either.

Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of neglecting a garden it did make us
ponder about "the younger generation".
[Just a minute, when did we stop being "the younger generation"?]

Her tenants can afford to buy, but don't want to because they don't want the
responsibility.
They still seem to live as students with the same short term view of
accomodation as somewhere to dump stuff between work and socialising.
This is not uncommon, from talking to other "Baby Boomers" about their kids.
Not many seem to settle into the life we were lead to expect - married,
kids, good job for life.
Not that this "dream" is practical now; jobs and carreers are not expected
to be long term and life expectancy is much longer so everything seems to
have an air of impermanence. Marriage and kids has gone down the priority
list for many. Expecting to have to work until you are 70 or more must be
quite daunting.

Please note that I do not criticise people for not following the route we
were encouraged to take. The world is a very different place and each
generation makes their own decisions.

However gardening seems to be tied in to a focus on the home and a
willingness to spend time at home working on it. If life is so busy that
there is no spare time and energy to maintain your home and garden then
something has got to give.

So to finally get to the point.

How many urgles (contributors and lurkers) are aged 30 and below?
Is gardening as popular as it always was (the amount of stuff in the sheds
does suggest a strong demand) or are most of the people gardening Baby
Boomers and the next decade or so, who bought houses before the last couple
of the housing booms?

Has the extended period in education (did we ever get to 50% going to
University instead of 5-10%) and the massive availability of electronic
consumer goods and availability of various entertainments given the 30-
generation a whole new set of priorities which render serious gardening a
waste of valuable time?

Just wondering (and not too seriously) :-)

Cheers

Daver

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

Nobody much is interested in manual work. Thet seem to think they can
make a living sat in front of a screen. We have a generation thinks
not to go to "uni" is failure. When they get there they learn useless
crap. Political studies. Psychology. Television studies.

Most of them are so fat/unfit they will never make it to seventy.

"David WE Roberts" wrote in message
...
I have just cut the lawn and cleared a bit of overhanging shrubbery at my
daughter's place (she rents it out ATM and we were letting a tradesman in).
Took me about 30 minutes.

The tenants, 30 and below, show absolutely no interest in the garden and
so do not maintain it.

This does not bother my daughter because she has no interest in the garden
either.

Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of neglecting a garden it did make us
ponder about "the younger generation".
[Just a minute, when did we stop being "the younger generation"?]

Her tenants can afford to buy, but don't want to because they don't want
the responsibility.
They still seem to live as students with the same short term view of
accomodation as somewhere to dump stuff between work and socialising.
This is not uncommon, from talking to other "Baby Boomers" about their
kids.
Not many seem to settle into the life we were lead to expect - married,
kids, good job for life.
Not that this "dream" is practical now; jobs and carreers are not expected
to be long term and life expectancy is much longer so everything seems to
have an air of impermanence. Marriage and kids has gone down the priority
list for many. Expecting to have to work until you are 70 or more must be
quite daunting.

Please note that I do not criticise people for not following the route we
were encouraged to take. The world is a very different place and each
generation makes their own decisions.

However gardening seems to be tied in to a focus on the home and a
willingness to spend time at home working on it. If life is so busy that
there is no spare time and energy to maintain your home and garden then
something has got to give.

So to finally get to the point.

How many urgles (contributors and lurkers) are aged 30 and below?
Is gardening as popular as it always was (the amount of stuff in the sheds
does suggest a strong demand) or are most of the people gardening Baby
Boomers and the next decade or so, who bought houses before the last
couple of the housing booms?

Has the extended period in education (did we ever get to 50% going to
University instead of 5-10%) and the massive availability of electronic
consumer goods and availability of various entertainments given the 30-
generation a whole new set of priorities which render serious gardening a
waste of valuable time?

Just wondering (and not too seriously) :-)

Cheers

Daver

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

"" Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of neglecting a garden ""

Excuse me, but who are you to say if it is "right" or "wrong" to neglect a
garden?

Ponder a while..... 'NEGLECT"..... So 'leaving it to nature' is neglect is
it?

Explain

Mike


--

....................................
Remember, a statue has never been erected to a critic.

....................................

"harry" wrote in message
...
On Jun 8, 9:01 am, "David WE Roberts"
wrote:
snip
*Nobody much is interested in manual work. Thet seem to think they can
*make a living sat in front of a screen. We have a generation thinks
*not to go to "uni" is failure. When they get there they learn useless
*crap. Political studies. Psychology. Television studies.

*Most of them are so fat/unfit they will never make it to seventy.

A mixed response here.

Yes, most people make a living sitting in front of a screen.
That's the way of the modern world.
It's the way I made my living and I'm sitting in front of a screen now.

I can't agree with your definition of crap, given that my lad is doing his
PhD in politics at the moment and it seems to cover a lot of useful and
relevant stuff. Psychology is also a useful profession.
I could be with you on the television studies, though.

Again, very few of the people who I saw at University when visiting my kids
were fat and their friends now are relatively lean.
My lad is underweight, if anything, and has completed an Olympic Triathlon
so he doesn't class as unfit.

I think you may find that the overweight people may come predominantly from
the 50% who didn't go to University, but that may just be my biased view.

I think you would be hard pressed to make a living at manual work these
days - there aren't that many jobs anymore now we don't have a manufacturing
industry and agriculture is so highly automated..

All of which has little to do with gardening. :-)

Cheers

Dave R

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

On Jun 8, 6:19*pm, "David WE Roberts"
wrote:
I think you would be hard pressed to make a living at manual work these
days -

Oh I don't know. Sounds like there is plenty of experience for
jobbing gardeners...

David WE Roberts wrote:
I have just cut the lawn and cleared a bit of overhanging shrubbery
at my daughter's place (she rents it out ATM and we were letting a
tradesman in). Took me about 30 minutes.

The tenants, 30 and below, show absolutely no interest in the garden
and so do not maintain it.

This does not bother my daughter because she has no interest in the
garden either.

Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of neglecting a garden it did
make us ponder about "the younger generation".
[Just a minute, when did we stop being "the younger generation"?]

Her tenants can afford to buy, but don't want to because they don't
want the responsibility.
They still seem to live as students with the same short term view of
accomodation as somewhere to dump stuff between work and socialising.
This is not uncommon, from talking to other "Baby Boomers" about
their kids. Not many seem to settle into the life we were lead to
expect - married, kids, good job for life.
Not that this "dream" is practical now; jobs and carreers are not
expected to be long term and life expectancy is much longer so
everything seems to have an air of impermanence. Marriage and kids
has gone down the priority list for many. Expecting to have to work
until you are 70 or more must be quite daunting.

Please note that I do not criticise people for not following the
route we were encouraged to take. The world is a very different place
and each generation makes their own decisions.

However gardening seems to be tied in to a focus on the home and a
willingness to spend time at home working on it. If life is so busy
that there is no spare time and energy to maintain your home and
garden then something has got to give.

So to finally get to the point.

How many urgles (contributors and lurkers) are aged 30 and below?
Is gardening as popular as it always was (the amount of stuff in the
sheds does suggest a strong demand) or are most of the people
gardening Baby Boomers and the next decade or so, who bought houses
before the last couple of the housing booms?

Has the extended period in education (did we ever get to 50% going to
University instead of 5-10%) and the massive availability of
electronic consumer goods and availability of various entertainments
given the 30- generation a whole new set of priorities which render
serious gardening a waste of valuable time?

Just wondering (and not too seriously) :-)



Well, I'm 45. Eep!

My younger years consisted of living in a large number of flats (my mother
used to joke about the number of crossed out addresses for me in her address
book) and when you're doing that, it doesn't seem much use investing time in
a garden you're probably going to abandon in a year or so, so you just keep
the grass down kind of thing. Now I'm in stable accomodation, the garden
seems an investment worth making, because I can think, "that'll be nice in
two years" or something.

Another factor might be that gardening is only an enjoyable hobby for somet
people, not all. Like, any hobby. In the past, I think people were more
likely to feel an obligation to present a nice garden to the world, like
scrubbing your front doorstep was an "advert" that you were a decent, clean,
respectable family beyond the front door. So even people who didn't much
enjoy gardening would do it in order to present a positive image to
neighbours etc. People care much less about such things these days.

Regarding marriage and kids as a priority, there are all sorts of factors.
One element is that nowadays for men marriage is a risky business. Just ask
John Cleese


Ian

On Wed, 8 Jun 2011 15:19:08 -0700 (PDT), bobharvey
wrote:

On Jun 8, 6:19*pm, "David WE Roberts"
wrote:
I think you would be hard pressed to make a living at manual work these
days -

Oh I don't know. Sounds like there is plenty of experience for
jobbing gardeners...

....and plumbers, electricians, roofers, bricklayers, joiners, motor
mechanics, bus drivers, road workers...need I go on? The money, spread
over a career, wouldn't often represent luxury, but it's decent. I
think the difficulty is for unskilled workers: we do seem to need far
fewer labourers these days. And what becomes of those with shiny new
degrees in Pure and Applied Knitting Studies and Football History, I
don't know..."Do you have a Nectar card?" perhaps. A very interesting
taxi driver told me how the Union had helped him into university when
he'd been on the buses...and a house-clearer said he'd got himself
through university, but was still clearing houses.

--
Mike.

"harry" wrote in message
...
On Jun 8, 9:01 am, "David WE Roberts"
wrote:
I have just cut the lawn and cleared a bit of overhanging shrubbery at my
daughter's place (she rents it out ATM and we were letting a tradesman
in).
Took me about 30 minutes.

The tenants, 30 and below, show absolutely no interest in the garden and
so
do not maintain it.

This does not bother my daughter because she has no interest in the garden
either.

Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of neglecting a garden it did make us
ponder about "the younger generation".
[Just a minute, when did we stop being "the younger generation"?]

Her tenants can afford to buy, but don't want to because they don't want
the
responsibility.
They still seem to live as students with the same short term view of
accomodation as somewhere to dump stuff between work and socialising.
This is not uncommon, from talking to other "Baby Boomers" about their
kids.
Not many seem to settle into the life we were lead to expect - married,
kids, good job for life.
Not that this "dream" is practical now; jobs and carreers are not expected
to be long term and life expectancy is much longer so everything seems to
have an air of impermanence. Marriage and kids has gone down the priority
list for many. Expecting to have to work until you are 70 or more must be
quite daunting.

Please note that I do not criticise people for not following the route we
were encouraged to take. The world is a very different place and each
generation makes their own decisions.

However gardening seems to be tied in to a focus on the home and a
willingness to spend time at home working on it. If life is so busy that
there is no spare time and energy to maintain your home and garden then
something has got to give.

So to finally get to the point.

How many urgles (contributors and lurkers) are aged 30 and below?
Is gardening as popular as it always was (the amount of stuff in the sheds
does suggest a strong demand) or are most of the people gardening Baby
Boomers and the next decade or so, who bought houses before the last
couple
of the housing booms?

Has the extended period in education (did we ever get to 50% going to
University instead of 5-10%) and the massive availability of electronic
consumer goods and availability of various entertainments given the 30-
generation a whole new set of priorities which render serious gardening a
waste of valuable time?

Just wondering (and not too seriously) :-)

Cheers

Daver

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

Nobody much is interested in manual work. Thet seem to think they can
make a living sat in front of a screen. We have a generation thinks
not to go to "uni" is failure. When they get there they learn useless
crap. Political studies. Psychology. Television studies.

How about one lad who was reading "Air Guitar" for his degree ????

Bill

In article , David WE Roberts
writes
The tenants, 30 and below, show absolutely no interest in the garden
and so do not maintain it.

This does not bother my daughter because she has no interest in the
garden either.


I know several households whose owners are between 30 and 40 but who pay
someone to cut their grass! They like a nice garden for a barbecue or
drinks etc. but don't actually want to cut the grass and have no idea
whatsoever what plants are in the garden nor what self sown tress should
be pulled out
--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk

On Fri, 10 Jun 2011 11:36:37 +0100, Bill Grey wrote:

Nobody much is interested in manual work.

Why should they when they can sit on the behinds and get benefits.
The poverty trap is still very much present. I'm freelance and have a
low income, if I have a good year I can earn several thousand pounds
more gross but the corresponding reduction in WTC and CTC very nearly
wipe any gain out. Say I work say an 3 extra weeks, I only end up
with the equivalent of a weeks extra money, not a great incentive to
work hard is it...

We have a generation thinks not to go to "uni" is failure.

And now any further education establishment can call itself a
"university", places that used to be "technical college" or a
"polytechnic".

When they get there they learn useless crap. Political studies.
Psychology. Television studies.

Political Studie might have use provided anyone who takes that course
is not allowed anywhere near anything political (from Parish Council
up) untill they have done at least 10 year in industry. Carere
politicians are a menance, they just don't have a broad enough
knowledge base of how the world really works.

Psychology is required for those looking after a broad range of
people with many forms of brain disorder or mental problems.

Television Studies I better keep quiet about as Television is how I
earn my little crust. Though the numbers going through "media"
courses that come out the other end hardly knowing one end of camera
from the other is worrying.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Janet Tweedy wrote:
The tenants, 30 and below, show absolutely no interest in the garden
and so do not maintain it.

This does not bother my daughter because she has no interest in the
garden either.

I know several households whose owners are between 30 and 40 but who pay
someone to cut their grass! They like a nice garden for a barbecue or
drinks etc. but don't actually want to cut the grass and have no idea
whatsoever what plants are in the garden nor what self sown tress should
be pulled out

We had some 30-somethings at the allotments last year who hired in
contractors to do their whole plot. Then left it, expensive potting shed
and all, abandoned after a year. Think some people have more money than
sense. :-/