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#166
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Lack of invertebrates / house sparrows (was Reed Buntings)
"Oz" wrote in message ... Tim Lamb writes Improved hygiene requirements for the storage of food on farms both for animal and human consumption has eliminated this food source. Remember the seriously improved hygiene AND TIDINESS is imposed on farms by supermarket diktat. Obviously the less grain lying about the fewer birds and the fewer small rodents. This is something that wants pointing out firmly, and with any luck some of the environmental organisations might have the courage to pick up on it. I note that these organisations have eventually caught on to the idea of the importance of grazing (The RSPB is very big on it) so I think there is hope they will take on the supermarkets tidyness fetish Jim Webster -- Oz This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious. DEMON address no longer in use. |
#167
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Lack of invertebrates / house sparrows (was Reed Buntings)
"Oz" wrote in message ... Tim Lamb writes Improved hygiene requirements for the storage of food on farms both for animal and human consumption has eliminated this food source. Remember the seriously improved hygiene AND TIDINESS is imposed on farms by supermarket diktat. Obviously the less grain lying about the fewer birds and the fewer small rodents. This is something that wants pointing out firmly, and with any luck some of the environmental organisations might have the courage to pick up on it. I note that these organisations have eventually caught on to the idea of the importance of grazing (The RSPB is very big on it) so I think there is hope they will take on the supermarkets tidyness fetish Jim Webster -- Oz This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious. DEMON address no longer in use. |
#168
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Lack of invertebrates / house sparrows (was Reed Buntings)
Jim Webster writes
This is something that wants pointing out firmly, and with any luck some of the environmental organisations might have the courage to pick up on it. I note that these organisations have eventually caught on to the idea of the importance of grazing (The RSPB is very big on it) so I think there is hope they will take on the supermarkets tidyness fetish Its probably too late. I doubt it is possible to return to the more casual days when grains were spilt casually and left for wildlife to clear up. This inevitably encourages small rodents which are a complete bete noir as far as all the regulatory authorities are concerned. The prescribed sealing of buildings and feeders from bird access is to do with various ec and uk laws (eg salmonella) and is unlikely to be reversible. This latter change immediately and obviously reduced small bird numbers and collared doves within a few months. It is worth noting that these measures have been imposed to solve an entirely imaginary problem. I know of no example of contaminated grains and animal feeds that have ever resulted in human infection, certainly in the last 50 years. One should also point out that the work with badgers at night showing them eating exposed animal feedstuffs and urinating on it now makes farmers even more careful because of TB. Its a pity that badgers, until recently looked on as rather nice wild animals to have on the farm, are now regarded with suspicion since they may now very well be infected with TB, whereas 10 years ago one could be confident that they were not. -- Oz This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious. DEMON address no longer in use. |
#169
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Lack of invertebrates / house sparrows (was Reed Buntings)
Jim Webster writes
This is something that wants pointing out firmly, and with any luck some of the environmental organisations might have the courage to pick up on it. I note that these organisations have eventually caught on to the idea of the importance of grazing (The RSPB is very big on it) so I think there is hope they will take on the supermarkets tidyness fetish Its probably too late. I doubt it is possible to return to the more casual days when grains were spilt casually and left for wildlife to clear up. This inevitably encourages small rodents which are a complete bete noir as far as all the regulatory authorities are concerned. The prescribed sealing of buildings and feeders from bird access is to do with various ec and uk laws (eg salmonella) and is unlikely to be reversible. This latter change immediately and obviously reduced small bird numbers and collared doves within a few months. It is worth noting that these measures have been imposed to solve an entirely imaginary problem. I know of no example of contaminated grains and animal feeds that have ever resulted in human infection, certainly in the last 50 years. One should also point out that the work with badgers at night showing them eating exposed animal feedstuffs and urinating on it now makes farmers even more careful because of TB. Its a pity that badgers, until recently looked on as rather nice wild animals to have on the farm, are now regarded with suspicion since they may now very well be infected with TB, whereas 10 years ago one could be confident that they were not. -- Oz This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious. DEMON address no longer in use. |
#170
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Lack of invertebrates / house sparrows (was Reed Buntings)
"Colonel Bloomer" wrote in message ... On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 19:55:03 -0000, "Tumbleweed" wrote: "Colonel Bloomer" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 17:20:45 +0000 (UTC), "W K" wrote: "Colonel Bloomer" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:59:32 +0000 (UTC), "W K" wrote: "Colonel Bloomer" wrote in message .. . snips I feel this is a bit more than the natural yoyo cycle of populations. The cycle of populations. When the sparrow population reached it's height, maybe there was some vulnerability due directly to the closeness the birds found themselves in. Maybe some populations are in a "stable state" when they are fluctuating? sparrowhawks (another post) Predators may lower the population if they recover themselves from population losses such as the agro-chemicals combined with gamekeeper slaughter. Once established though, there should be a "natural" balance between prey and predator numbers? Another consideration may be that garden feeders may have increased, and this is thought to unnaturally bring birds together more closely than they would do elsewhere. I heard someone say that many deaths from disease actually reduce numbers eventually around a feeder. I have not noticed this myself, rather the opposite after more than 7 years. T. |
#171
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Lack of invertebrates / house sparrows (was Reed Buntings)
"Colonel Bloomer" wrote in message ... On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 19:55:03 -0000, "Tumbleweed" wrote: "Colonel Bloomer" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 17:20:45 +0000 (UTC), "W K" wrote: "Colonel Bloomer" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:59:32 +0000 (UTC), "W K" wrote: "Colonel Bloomer" wrote in message .. . snips I feel this is a bit more than the natural yoyo cycle of populations. The cycle of populations. When the sparrow population reached it's height, maybe there was some vulnerability due directly to the closeness the birds found themselves in. Maybe some populations are in a "stable state" when they are fluctuating? sparrowhawks (another post) Predators may lower the population if they recover themselves from population losses such as the agro-chemicals combined with gamekeeper slaughter. Once established though, there should be a "natural" balance between prey and predator numbers? Another consideration may be that garden feeders may have increased, and this is thought to unnaturally bring birds together more closely than they would do elsewhere. I heard someone say that many deaths from disease actually reduce numbers eventually around a feeder. I have not noticed this myself, rather the opposite after more than 7 years. T. |
#172
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Lack of invertebrates / house sparrows (was Reed Buntings)
On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 09:31:31 -0000, "Thur" wrote:
"Colonel Bloomer" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 19:55:03 -0000, "Tumbleweed" wrote: "Colonel Bloomer" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 17:20:45 +0000 (UTC), "W K" wrote: "Colonel Bloomer" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:59:32 +0000 (UTC), "W K" wrote: "Colonel Bloomer" wrote in message .. . snips I feel this is a bit more than the natural yoyo cycle of populations. The cycle of populations. When the sparrow population reached it's height, maybe there was some vulnerability due directly to the closeness the birds found themselves in. Maybe some populations are in a "stable state" when they are fluctuating? Fluctuation is "normal" within a certain moderate range, even great peaks and troughs now and again is normal. sparrowhawks (another post) Predators may lower the population if they recover themselves from population losses such as the agro-chemicals combined with gamekeeper slaughter. Once established though, there should be a "natural" balance between prey and predator numbers? Indeed. Another consideration may be that garden feeders may have increased, For sure. and this is thought to unnaturally bring birds together more closely than they would do elsewhere. I heard someone say that many deaths from disease actually reduce numbers eventually around a feeder. I'd find that hard to believe. whilst we do often hear of many cases, they are usually as a result of contaminated seed etc. I have not noticed this myself, rather the opposite after more than 7 years. T. Having said that, how many birds around our feeders actually last longer than a year? It all shows we need some serious research undertaken, preferably independent. Quite why we're still twiddling our thumbs?... Maybe we should start a new charity for the protection of "all" birds, even the common ones. |
#173
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Lack of invertebrates / house sparrows (was Reed Buntings)
Thur writes
sparrowhawks (another post) Predators may lower the population if they recover themselves from population losses such as the agro-chemicals combined with gamekeeper slaughter. Apart from raptors, and then many years ago, I haven't heard of gamekeepers shooting birds other than some corvids. Shooting crows/pigeons was once the only shooting allowed to farmworkers, which kept populations down 30 years ago. Apart from DDT, banned in the early 1970's, do you have any evidence of significant bird losses due pesticides? Once established though, there should be a "natural" balance between prey and predator numbers? Yes, but this need not be, and often is not, a stable population as in the same every year. -- Oz This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious. DEMON address no longer in use. |
#174
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Lack of invertebrates / house sparrows (was Reed Buntings)
On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 09:31:31 -0000, "Thur" wrote:
"Colonel Bloomer" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 19:55:03 -0000, "Tumbleweed" wrote: "Colonel Bloomer" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 17:20:45 +0000 (UTC), "W K" wrote: "Colonel Bloomer" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:59:32 +0000 (UTC), "W K" wrote: "Colonel Bloomer" wrote in message .. . snips I feel this is a bit more than the natural yoyo cycle of populations. The cycle of populations. When the sparrow population reached it's height, maybe there was some vulnerability due directly to the closeness the birds found themselves in. Maybe some populations are in a "stable state" when they are fluctuating? Fluctuation is "normal" within a certain moderate range, even great peaks and troughs now and again is normal. sparrowhawks (another post) Predators may lower the population if they recover themselves from population losses such as the agro-chemicals combined with gamekeeper slaughter. Once established though, there should be a "natural" balance between prey and predator numbers? Indeed. Another consideration may be that garden feeders may have increased, For sure. and this is thought to unnaturally bring birds together more closely than they would do elsewhere. I heard someone say that many deaths from disease actually reduce numbers eventually around a feeder. I'd find that hard to believe. whilst we do often hear of many cases, they are usually as a result of contaminated seed etc. I have not noticed this myself, rather the opposite after more than 7 years. T. Having said that, how many birds around our feeders actually last longer than a year? It all shows we need some serious research undertaken, preferably independent. Quite why we're still twiddling our thumbs?... Maybe we should start a new charity for the protection of "all" birds, even the common ones. |
#175
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Lack of invertebrates / house sparrows (was Reed Buntings)
"Oz" wrote in message ... Thur writes sparrowhawks (another post) Predators may lower the population if they recover themselves from population losses such as the agro-chemicals combined with gamekeeper slaughter. Apart from raptors, and then many years ago, I haven't heard of gamekeepers shooting birds other than some corvids. Shooting crows/pigeons was once the only shooting allowed to farmworkers, which kept populations down 30 years ago. Apart from DDT, banned in the early 1970's, do you have any evidence of significant bird losses due pesticides? Once established though, there should be a "natural" balance between prey and predator numbers? Yes, but this need not be, and often is not, a stable population as in the same every year. -- Oz This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious. DEMON address no longer in use. I do hear that the Goshawk is now returning to some areas, and I see with my own eyes Buzzards wheeling overhead (and searching our nesting sites) which were once completely absent from my area. (North Midlands) I hear (tv) that these predators were reduced by one or both of the problems mentioned. Poisoning and egg stealing and capture still go on if we are to believe the Courts, where the odd one or two of those found are fined. Your trust in gamekeepers is heartening, but to a cynic like me, mistaken. Their job is to increase their crop of game by suppressing natural predation which increases with the increased prey supply. How else can they keep their jobs? But the point is that as predator numbers have risen, populations of their prey will have reduced to a balance. Whether this accounts for the sudden drop in sparrows mentioned is another matter. I should have quoted that part of the other post to which I had been referring. T. |
#176
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Lack of invertebrates / house sparrows (was Reed Buntings)
Thur writes
sparrowhawks (another post) Predators may lower the population if they recover themselves from population losses such as the agro-chemicals combined with gamekeeper slaughter. Apart from raptors, and then many years ago, I haven't heard of gamekeepers shooting birds other than some corvids. Shooting crows/pigeons was once the only shooting allowed to farmworkers, which kept populations down 30 years ago. Apart from DDT, banned in the early 1970's, do you have any evidence of significant bird losses due pesticides? Once established though, there should be a "natural" balance between prey and predator numbers? Yes, but this need not be, and often is not, a stable population as in the same every year. -- Oz This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious. DEMON address no longer in use. |
#177
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Lack of invertebrates / house sparrows (was Reed Buntings)
Thur writes
I do hear that the Goshawk is now returning to some areas, and I see with my own eyes Buzzards wheeling overhead (and searching our nesting sites) which were once completely absent from my area. (North Midlands) We have had buzzards (SE england) since I came here in 1975. They bred here from then on too. Note the date carefully. Kites and spars (occasional others eg hobby) common. I hear (tv) that these predators were reduced by one or both of the problems mentioned. Many raptors were shot by gamekeepers up until the 70's, and some later, to this day in more isolated areas we are told. Poisoning and egg stealing and capture still go on if we are to believe the Courts, where the odd one or two of those found are fined. Except for rate birds, I doubt this is a major source of loss. Your trust in gamekeepers is heartening, but to a cynic like me, mistaken. Their job is to increase their crop of game by suppressing natural predation which increases with the increased prey supply. How else can they keep their jobs? Hopefully a gamekeeper will tell you. The main losses seem to be in rearing pens, which should be netted all round. But the point is that as predator numbers have risen, populations of their prey will have reduced to a balance. My personal opinion is that the larger english raptors were very badly hit by myxi. As this has become ineffective (70's and particularly 80's onwards) numbers have risen. Certainly the recent rabbit disease more- or-less wiped rabbits out locally for a year (or two) and the raptors more-or-less vanished. Whether this accounts for the sudden drop in sparrows mentioned is another matter. I suspect less available food and Mr Spar. He did our farmyard ones in in three years, they have never recovered but the netting of feed stores and verminproofing of grain stores came in not so far later, so this might explain why they never recovered. -- Oz This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious. DEMON address no longer in use. |
#178
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Lack of invertebrates / house sparrows (was Reed Buntings)
In article , Oz
writes Tumbleweed writes Thats another factor, cats, though I dont know if there are more than there used to be. Shouldn't think so. And windows. There must be a lot more, and a lot larger windows than say 50 years ago. Yes, but the window owners feed birds much more than they used to. The cat owners tend to as well. We do. Townies are particularly effective, putting out the bird feed to attract the birds for their cats. Windows are responsible for huge numbers of bird deaths every year. Yes, but they very soon learn. True. Once they have killed themselves on a window they never make the same mistake again. Regards -- Charles Francis |
#179
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Lack of invertebrates / house sparrows (was Reed Buntings)
"Oz" wrote in message ... Thur writes sparrowhawks (another post) Predators may lower the population if they recover themselves from population losses such as the agro-chemicals combined with gamekeeper slaughter. Apart from raptors, and then many years ago, I haven't heard of gamekeepers shooting birds other than some corvids. Shooting crows/pigeons was once the only shooting allowed to farmworkers, which kept populations down 30 years ago. Apart from DDT, banned in the early 1970's, do you have any evidence of significant bird losses due pesticides? Once established though, there should be a "natural" balance between prey and predator numbers? Yes, but this need not be, and often is not, a stable population as in the same every year. -- Oz This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious. DEMON address no longer in use. I do hear that the Goshawk is now returning to some areas, and I see with my own eyes Buzzards wheeling overhead (and searching our nesting sites) which were once completely absent from my area. (North Midlands) I hear (tv) that these predators were reduced by one or both of the problems mentioned. Poisoning and egg stealing and capture still go on if we are to believe the Courts, where the odd one or two of those found are fined. Your trust in gamekeepers is heartening, but to a cynic like me, mistaken. Their job is to increase their crop of game by suppressing natural predation which increases with the increased prey supply. How else can they keep their jobs? But the point is that as predator numbers have risen, populations of their prey will have reduced to a balance. Whether this accounts for the sudden drop in sparrows mentioned is another matter. I should have quoted that part of the other post to which I had been referring. T. |
#180
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Lack of invertebrates / house sparrows (was Reed Buntings)
Thur writes
I do hear that the Goshawk is now returning to some areas, and I see with my own eyes Buzzards wheeling overhead (and searching our nesting sites) which were once completely absent from my area. (North Midlands) We have had buzzards (SE england) since I came here in 1975. They bred here from then on too. Note the date carefully. Kites and spars (occasional others eg hobby) common. I hear (tv) that these predators were reduced by one or both of the problems mentioned. Many raptors were shot by gamekeepers up until the 70's, and some later, to this day in more isolated areas we are told. Poisoning and egg stealing and capture still go on if we are to believe the Courts, where the odd one or two of those found are fined. Except for rate birds, I doubt this is a major source of loss. Your trust in gamekeepers is heartening, but to a cynic like me, mistaken. Their job is to increase their crop of game by suppressing natural predation which increases with the increased prey supply. How else can they keep their jobs? Hopefully a gamekeeper will tell you. The main losses seem to be in rearing pens, which should be netted all round. But the point is that as predator numbers have risen, populations of their prey will have reduced to a balance. My personal opinion is that the larger english raptors were very badly hit by myxi. As this has become ineffective (70's and particularly 80's onwards) numbers have risen. Certainly the recent rabbit disease more- or-less wiped rabbits out locally for a year (or two) and the raptors more-or-less vanished. Whether this accounts for the sudden drop in sparrows mentioned is another matter. I suspect less available food and Mr Spar. He did our farmyard ones in in three years, they have never recovered but the netting of feed stores and verminproofing of grain stores came in not so far later, so this might explain why they never recovered. -- Oz This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious. DEMON address no longer in use. |
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