On 9/2/05 23:44, in article , "Janet
Baraclough" wrote:

The message
from Sacha contains these words:

On 9/2/05 7:37 pm, in article ,
"Janet Baraclough" wrote:

Imho, more squirm-worthy garden authors include Beverly Nichols, (but
at least he laughed at himself); Martha Stewart, and currently, Roy
Strong..sorry, Sacha, but I find his brand of acquired social
pretensions really detract from "The Laskett" .

No problem - I see that myself. But if you look past that at what he did
there with his (now deceased) wife, it was and is quite something. I like,
too, that he is quite open about his origins and does NOT pretend to be what
he is not. But he IS talented, I think.

I agree, his garden and amazing career are greatly to be admired.
That's what makes it worse, somehow..that someone so creative and
original, who has worked so hard and achieved so much, should be dazzled
and impressed by inherited wealth and status.


If people are of the type to be dazzled by such things alone, I'm not sure
it ever leaves them. Having lived in Jersey where a lot of rich and famous
people live, I've met some of them and become friendly with a few. One
particular famous person I have in mind, who has made millions, met all
sorts of other rich and famous people etc. has an enormously wide following,
is still insecure about his own social status and "how to do things
properly". Perhaps, somewhere inside, many of us are still about 19 years
old! But I do like about Roy Strong the fact that he never hides his
origins or attempts to be 'grander' than he is by birth. A lot of people do
that to their own detriment, IMO, especially when meeting or mixing with
people posher than themselves.
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove the weeds to email me)

In article , Janet Baraclough
writes

I agree, his garden and amazing career are greatly to be admired.
That's what makes it worse, somehow..that someone so creative and
original, who has worked so hard and achieved so much, should be dazzled
and impressed by inherited wealth and status.



Maybe he did work so hard at succeeding because he doesn't feel he'll
ever be one of the elite? Some very adept people carry an inferiority
complex or just the idea that they aren't quite good enough.


Janet
--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk

In article , Sacha
writes
I've always thought it was a great leveller. Everyone looks the same in
gardening clothes and the interests are the same, even if the tastes aren't.
My experience of people who are passionate about gardening and plants is
that there ARE no social barriers, except possibly from the sort of Mrs
Hampstead I was thinking of originally. And real gardeners garden, Lord or
not.


But I'm not sure that gardening is designing Sacha, Some people love the
plants, they like growing them etc but others seem intent on the hard
landscaping and overall effect so plants are seen as making up the
effect like scenery shifting.

I'm forever buying plants or growing things that have no part in an
overall scheme (if there were one) though I have a blue bed a yellow bed
and a red bed so I know where to shove stuff that's too big for the pots


To a designer a lawn has to curve or feel right, to a plants person a
lawn is there to be inched away so there's more room for the next
perennials ..............


On the other hand, I expect there's wonderful people who combine both
skills, though I have yet to find a designer who wants to know where the
greenhouse is going, where \I could put all my cuttings in pots and
empty flowerpots and a seed bed for new plants.
--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk

In article , Sacha
writes

A lot of people do
that to their own detriment, IMO, especially when meeting or mixing with
people posher than themselves.


But what exactly is posher? I know some very 'old money' people who
are really down to earth and sensible and hands-on, I also know some
very 'new money' dollops who are condescending, rude and full of their
own importance and aspire to a certain style of living.

I know two or three 'ordinary'? people who have more 'class' in their
little finger than most 'New Labour VIPs' could ever club together to
obtain.

Classy isn't 'posh', it isn't rich or important, is it?

Class in a garden to me, is being able to combine both design and
planstmen qualities and no 'good grief' factor but more 'wow, what a
wonderful garden' factor. It's more atmosphere and feeling than money
spent on hard landscaping and rareness of plants, or growing the 'in
thing' (usually grasses).


Yes I know . Janet B will now demolish my summary and come up with
something far more pithy, funny and to the point

Janet
--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk

On 10/2/05 11:10, in article , "Janet Tweedy"
wrote:

In article , Sacha
writes
I've always thought it was a great leveller. Everyone looks the same in
gardening clothes and the interests are the same, even if the tastes aren't.
My experience of people who are passionate about gardening and plants is
that there ARE no social barriers, except possibly from the sort of Mrs
Hampstead I was thinking of originally. And real gardeners garden, Lord or
not.


But I'm not sure that gardening is designing Sacha,
snip of interesting ideas!
On the other hand, I expect there's wonderful people who combine both
skills, though I have yet to find a designer who wants to know where the
greenhouse is going, where \I could put all my cuttings in pots and
empty flowerpots and a seed bed for new plants.

But don't you think everyone is working towards the same end, really? I'm
no good at designing but am the sort that buys a much-wanted plant and
*then* wanders around looking for a space to put it in! But we have a
friend who, while untrained, has gardened for years and is totally brilliant
at both and apparently without effort, produces the 'just right' effect
every time. He is also a wonderful interior designer (untrained) and cook
(untrained). Actually, he makes me sick! ;-)
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove the weeds to email me)

On 10/2/05 11:51, in article , "Janet Tweedy"
wrote:

In article , Sacha
writes

A lot of people do
that to their own detriment, IMO, especially when meeting or mixing with
people posher than themselves.


But what exactly is posher? I know some very 'old money' people who
are really down to earth and sensible and hands-on, I also know some
very 'new money' dollops who are condescending, rude and full of their
own importance and aspire to a certain style of living.

But that's the point, really - it's a matter of perception as to what is
posh. Really, *truly* posh people just do not (on the whole) behave like
snobs because why should they? They have nothing to prove. At one time in
its history, being a 'snob' meant being a social climber. I think it does
still. And while our author may not intend that for his hero's wife, it
seems that most of us have taken the view that she's going to be the social
climbing type. He's going to disappoint a lot of people if she isn't!!! ;-)

The peers I know have beautiful manners and do not attempt to make others
feel inferior or insignificant in any way. I'm sure there are some that do
but just like all other areas of life, there's nice and nasty, good and bad.

We have people who come here who are at the top of the social tree and make
absolutely no fuss, no bother, ask for no special attention (but like a
discount!) and are genuinely nice, charming people. OTOH, we get the
occasional prat who thinks that a mock-Tudor house in some stockbroker belt
makes them 'posh'. In fact a top of the trees peer I'm thinking of heard one
of these condescend to another in those awful neighing tones, "Oh, you're
from Surrey - we're from the Surrey Hampshire border". The peer and my
husband the nurseryman, looked at each other, didn't say a word but did a
lot with their eyebrows!


I know two or three 'ordinary'? people who have more 'class' in their
little finger than most 'New Labour VIPs' could ever club together to
obtain.

I agree with that. Having class isn't a class issue. ;-)

Classy isn't 'posh', it isn't rich or important, is it?

Not in my opinion.

Class in a garden to me, is being able to combine both design and
planstmen qualities and no 'good grief' factor but more 'wow, what a
wonderful garden' factor. It's more atmosphere and feeling than money
spent on hard landscaping and rareness of plants, or growing the 'in
thing' (usually grasses).

Couldn't agree more and it doesn't take acres to do it, either.


Yes I know . Janet B will now demolish my summary and come up with
something far more pithy, funny and to the point

I love Janet's mordant wit but I think you have summed things up extremely
well.
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove the weeds to email me)

"Sacha" wrote in message
k...

[snip]

Having lived in Jersey where a lot of rich and famous
people live,

I have never heardof any famous people living in Jersey, except
perhaps for some specimens who might be famous for being famous.

[snip]

Franz

On 12/2/05 18:17, in article , "Franz
Heymann" wrote:


"Sacha" wrote in message
k...

[snip]

Having lived in Jersey where a lot of rich and famous
people live,

I have never heardof any famous people living in Jersey, except
perhaps for some specimens who might be famous for being famous.

[snip]

Franz

Why should you have, unless you make a study of such things? I happen to
know about it because I lived there and was born there. It wasn't stuff that
I sought, it just happened to me.

So - Alan Whicker (TV journalist), Derek Warwick, (racing driver), Billy
Butlin (deceased), Jack Higgins (author of e.g. The Eagle has Landed), the
Dockers (deceased), John Nettles (while shooting Bergerac), Gilbert
O'Sullivan (singer), Ian Woosnam (golfer) Tony Jacklin at one time, Gerald
Durrell (zoologist), Sir Giles Guthrie (one time chairman of BOAC, whose
widow is there still).

And that doesn't touch the merely rich and/or titled, whose names you might
or might not know like the founder of one of the successful cut-rate
airlines, some immensely rich property developers, or the now en desastre
(bankrupt) but soon to be discharged owner of ML Laboratories.
The Channel Islands are tax havens, Franz. They attract a lot of people who
you will never have heard of and some you have. Many would *prefer* that
you have never heard of them. The Barclay Brothers own the lease on Brecqhou
and have built the world's most expensive and fortified semi-detached
quasi-castle there - do a bit of Googling on them!
Ian Botham and John Arlott lived in Alderney but I don't know if Botham is
still there. He very kindly did a walk for the Jersey branch of the
Leukaemia Research Fund when I was its chairman. I think that one day took
5 years off my life but it raised a lot of money. The Channel Islands are
both peculiar and particular. ;-)
--

Sacha
(remove the weeds for email)

"Sacha" wrote in message
k...
On 12/2/05 18:17, in article ,
"Franz
Heymann" wrote:


"Sacha" wrote in message
k...

[snip]

Having lived in Jersey where a lot of rich and famous
people live,

I have never heardof any famous people living in Jersey, except
perhaps for some specimens who might be famous for being famous.

[snip]

Franz

Why should you have, unless you make a study of such things? I
happen to
know about it because I lived there and was born there. It wasn't
stuff that
I sought, it just happened to me.

So - Alan Whicker (TV journalist), Derek Warwick, (racing driver),
Billy
Butlin (deceased), Jack Higgins (author of e.g. The Eagle has
Landed), the
Dockers (deceased), John Nettles (while shooting Bergerac), Gilbert
O'Sullivan (singer), Ian Woosnam (golfer) Tony Jacklin at one time,
Gerald
Durrell (zoologist), Sir Giles Guthrie (one time chairman of BOAC,
whose
widow is there still).

None of them are famous in my book. As a matter of fact many of them
I have never heard of.
All of them, without exception, will be forgotten within a few decades
of their death.
On the other hane, Rabelais, Galileo, Shakespeare, Einstein and the
like never lived on Jersey.

And that doesn't touch the merely rich and/or titled, whose names
you might
or might not know like the founder of one of the successful cut-rate
airlines, some immensely rich property developers, or the now en
desastre
(bankrupt) but soon to be discharged owner of ML Laboratories.
The Channel Islands are tax havens, Franz.

I am aware of that. Ecsaping ones tax obligations is, in my book, a
reason for infamy, not fame.

They attract a lot of people who
you will never have heard of and some you have. Many would *prefer*
that
you have never heard of them. The Barclay Brothers own the lease on
Brecqhou
and have built the world's most expensive and fortified
semi-detached
quasi-castle there - do a bit of Googling on them!
Ian Botham and John Arlott lived in Alderney but I don't know if
Botham is
still there. He very kindly did a walk for the Jersey branch of the
Leukaemia Research Fund when I was its chairman. I think that one
day took
5 years off my life but it raised a lot of money. The Channel
Islands are
both peculiar and particular. ;-)

Sacha, I know there are many people who live on Jersey in order to
avoid paying taxes or to be seen living amongst others of the same
kind. That is not what I call fame. I judge whether persons are
famous or not by the quality of the durable ideas they have produced.
All else are but baubles.
{:-((

Franz

On 13/2/05 7:30, in article , "Franz
Heymann" wrote:


"Sacha" wrote in message
k...
snip
So - Alan Whicker (TV journalist), Derek Warwick, (racing driver),
Billy
Butlin (deceased), Jack Higgins (author of e.g. The Eagle has
Landed), the
Dockers (deceased), John Nettles (while shooting Bergerac), Gilbert
O'Sullivan (singer), Ian Woosnam (golfer) Tony Jacklin at one time,
Gerald
Durrell (zoologist), Sir Giles Guthrie (one time chairman of BOAC,
whose
widow is there still).

None of them are famous in my book.

With respect, Franz, it is not your book that matters. In the mores of the
times in which we live, these are famous people.

As a matter of fact many of them
I have never heard of.
All of them, without exception, will be forgotten within a few decades
of their death.
On the other hane, Rabelais, Galileo, Shakespeare, Einstein and the
like never lived on Jersey.

Again, with respect you are moving the goalposts. I may appear that
ancient but I'm not - I was writing of people that I had met or who had
lived in Jersey during my lifetime (by implication) You perhaps, would
settle for Victor Hugo, Millais, Charles II.

And that doesn't touch the merely rich and/or titled, whose names
you might
or might not know like the founder of one of the successful cut-rate
airlines, some immensely rich property developers, or the now en
desastre
(bankrupt) but soon to be discharged owner of ML Laboratories.
The Channel Islands are tax havens, Franz.

I am aware of that. Ecsaping ones tax obligations is, in my book, a
reason for infamy, not fame.

That is a matter of opinion and is not what we're discussing.

They attract a lot of people who
you will never have heard of and some you have. snip

Sacha, I know there are many people who live on Jersey in order to
avoid paying taxes or to be seen living amongst others of the same
kind. That is not what I call fame. I judge whether persons are
famous or not by the quality of the durable ideas they have produced.
All else are but baubles.
{:-((

Franz

That may be *your* take on it but it is not everyone's opinion. People are
famous for many things and the ones I have named above are famous by most
standards. In the case of e.g. Alan Whicker who changed a great deal in the
way of television interviewing and trod new ground, I would consider his
work to be durable. Gerald Durrell changed the approach to keeping animals
in zoos and pioneered breeding programmes to reintroduce species to their
native countries - that work is durable. I respect your criteria but they
are not the only ones that count. Especially as it would appear that people
have to be dead for centuries before even being considered eligible for a
discussion on current fame!
--

Sacha
(remove the weeds for email)

In article , Franz Heymann
writes

"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...

[snip]

Having lived in Jersey where a lot of rich and famous
people live,

I have never heardof any famous people living in Jersey, except
perhaps for some specimens who might be famous for being famous.

[snip]

Franz




You mean you've never heard of Jersey Royals?

--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk

On 13/2/05 13:55, in article , "Janet Tweedy"
wrote:

In article , Franz Heymann
writes

"Sacha" wrote in message
k...

[snip]

Having lived in Jersey where a lot of rich and famous
people live,

I have never heardof any famous people living in Jersey, except
perhaps for some specimens who might be famous for being famous.

[snip]

Franz




You mean you've never heard of Jersey Royals?


VaVaVOOM!!
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove the weeds to email me)

"Sacha" wrote in message
k...
On 13/2/05 7:30, in article ,
"Franz
Heymann" wrote:


"Sacha" wrote in message
k...
snip
So - Alan Whicker (TV journalist), Derek Warwick, (racing
driver),
Billy
Butlin (deceased), Jack Higgins (author of e.g. The Eagle has
Landed), the
Dockers (deceased), John Nettles (while shooting Bergerac),
Gilbert
O'Sullivan (singer), Ian Woosnam (golfer) Tony Jacklin at one
time,
Gerald
Durrell (zoologist), Sir Giles Guthrie (one time chairman of
BOAC,
whose
widow is there still).

None of them are famous in my book.

With respect, Franz, it is not your book that matters. In the mores
of the
times in which we live, these are famous people.

As a matter of fact many of them
I have never heard of.
All of them, without exception, will be forgotten within a few
decades
of their death.
On the other hane, Rabelais, Galileo, Shakespeare, Einstein and
the
like never lived on Jersey.

Again, with respect you are moving the goalposts. I may appear
that
ancient but I'm not - I was writing of people that I had met or who
had
lived in Jersey during my lifetime (by implication) You perhaps,
would
settle for Victor Hugo, Millais, Charles II.

I bet you are not as old as that either. {;:-))

And that doesn't touch the merely rich and/or titled, whose names
you might
or might not know like the founder of one of the successful
cut-rate
airlines, some immensely rich property developers, or the now en
desastre
(bankrupt) but soon to be discharged owner of ML Laboratories.
The Channel Islands are tax havens, Franz.

I am aware of that. Ecsaping ones tax obligations is, in my book,
a
reason for infamy, not fame.

That is a matter of opinion and is not what we're discussing.

They attract a lot of people who
you will never have heard of and some you have. snip

Sacha, I know there are many people who live on Jersey in order to
avoid paying taxes or to be seen living amongst others of the same
kind. That is not what I call fame. I judge whether persons are
famous or not by the quality of the durable ideas they have
produced.
All else are but baubles.
{:-((

Franz

That may be *your* take on it but it is not everyone's opinion.
People are
famous for many things and the ones I have named above are famous by
most
standards. In the case of e.g. Alan Whicker who changed a great
deal in the
way of television interviewing and trod new ground, I would consider
his
work to be durable.

G.B. Shaw also had some temporary claim to fame. Who knows anything
about his plays nowadays, except perhaps for that popularised musical?
(Which I thoroughly enjoy)


Gerald Durrell changed the approach to keeping animals
in zoos and pioneered breeding programmes to reintroduce species to
their
native countries - that work is durable. I respect your criteria
but they
are not the only ones that count. Especially as it would appear
that people
have to be dead for centuries before even being considered eligible
for a
discussion on current fame!

All four my random samples were famous in their lifetimes.

May I suggest we have by now had our fun on this topic?

--
Franz
The designers of foolproof equipment often forget the ingenuity of
fools

In article , Franz Heymann notfranz.
writes
G.B. Shaw also had some temporary claim to fame. Who knows anything
about his plays nowadays, except perhaps for that popularised musical?
(Which I thoroughly enjoy)

I've read a good few of them. But then, I might be too old to count ;-)

Isn't there still a Shaw Festival at malvern?
--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

Kay wrote:
In article , Franz Heymann
notfranz. writes
G.B. Shaw also had some temporary claim to fame. Who knows
anything
about his plays nowadays, except perhaps for that popularised
musical? (Which I thoroughly enjoy)

I've read a good few of them. But then, I might be too old to count
;-)

Isn't there still a Shaw Festival at malvern?

Ah, you can't be as old as I am, can you? Isn't it strange how his
influence has virtually dropped dead? He may have said some damn-fool
things about Russia, but his plays, even at the preachiest, are such
_fun_ as well as thought-provoking. I'd guess people ten years older
than I am got most of their political education from him. Not even
Arthur Miller, on whom be peace, would have got a letter delivered,
addressed simply with a picture of him and the words "wherever he may
be at present", as Shaw did. I remember the stir when a contemporary
of my mother's, an Australian actor, got a reply to a letter to the
Grand Old man. "Young man," it began!

Mike.