"Charles" wrote in message
news
I could be taking the wrong end of the stick here, but you do know that I
was being sarcastic in my original post don't you? I think the man in
question in Toowoomba was/is a fool. Perhaps I was too subtle for you?

perhaps g. sarcasm is not the best method of communication. however, you
can consider the statements still stand (if not directed to you) as some
people evidently believe these things!

I think Toowoomba residents missed a good opportunity, but one must not
discount the role both the local media (by refusal to use neutral and
noninflammatory terminology in its reporting) *and* the Federal Govt (by
demanding that a referendum had to be held and won in order to get Fed
funding for the project) had in the defeat of the referendum.

well of course. (anyone who wants to blame the govt for anything at all is
fine by me g)

what of the responsibility of individuals though, to not be total morons &
to take some responsibility towards saving themselves (e.g. the good
burghers of toowoomba)? it's all very well to blame the tabloids - why does
nobody question what kind of person reads them & believes that stuff,
because without their audience they clearly would have no influence..?!
(just a general question!!) same with govts in general - they've all got
form as fibbers - why would they be believable in one instance but not
another? (etc).
kylie

"Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow wrote in message
...
who just haven't got the first idea about anything! but the onus is
on
country people to stop whingeing & educate them. the two lots are
entirely
interdependent, but you wouldn't know that from observing them.

Having lived in the country for the majority of my life, I strongly
think that country people have more idea of the interdependance and
the realities of life than city people do. We've been in drought for
6 whole years but it is only now that the major metro papers seem to
have woken up about it and only then because the cost of food is
really going to bite the city residents.

as a regular reader of city papers (and ex-city dweller), that's not really
so, actually. it's probably fair to say that all individuals have now woken
up to the problem all of a sudden. as an issue, it's just _exploded_
recently, and equally for everyone. i mean, sydney people (and those in
other places) have been experiencing the reality of water shortages for 5
years, haven't they? the fact that most of them don't grow primary produce
only means that for them the situation isn't _dire_ in terms of livelihood
in the short term; but they have been well aware of it for quite some time.
city peeps are generally better-educated and have a much broader view of the
world, their world is just bigger than ours is. i believe it's equally
impossible for most country people to have any idea of what's really going
on in the rest of the country. certainly the media is more accessible, but
it seems to matter less when it's a long way away - it seems a problem
removed, but it's not (as we all live here together).

Lord knows where they
thought (if they did think at all) of where their food came from.

again speaking for sydney - most fresh food there is grown in the sydney
basin - it's local :-) (for now, anyway). again, it seems to take a crisis
(farmland possibly being taken away for development) for people to realise
what might be lost. argh!

Water and how much of it is available has really been much lower down
the agenda because in comparison to the country, our major cities are
relativeley well supplied and taking it from miles and miles away into
the cities..

a critical mass of people gives benefits, that's true. many services iin the
country are crap - it's not just a water thing. (sigh). we don't exist, you
know ;-)

They've been doing soemthing about it for many more than 5 years with
a few exceptions (like Cubbie).

Farmers were talking about Global warming and climate change long
before the bulk of the population. Only the real lunatic city fringe
were talking about those things when I knew of dead boring and very
conservative farmers who'd noticed the impact on their land.

that's a good point you make unintentionally - one problem that both farmers
(as a group, not individually - i'm being very general) and "greenies" have
is seeing the other side as the enemy, when _really_ they're obviously on
the same side. but farmers will NOT accept something a greenie said - the
farmer's association has to say it, & _then_ it's true. anyone can be undone
by their own limited world-view, both farmers & ecologists are no exception.
and yet, "green" farmers are fully accepted (by all parties) on their
results, and so many ecological issues are now entirely mainstream anyway,
so why is there not more cooperation and dialogue? it's not green groups
refusing to speak to farmers, that's for sure! it's just both sides not
thinking about who their allies really are.

and again, you've kind of pointed out unwittingly how the national party
have let their constituents down about this sort of thing. at this time, the
nats barely deserve for anyone to vote for them - so why are farmers & nats
in a cosy little voting arrangement that doesn't benefit anyone in the long
term? (that's rhetorical - i don't expect an answer there ;-)

They had
not only started talking about it but were also doing something about
it. It all started with dry land salinity problems anfdGod knows
farmers have been working on that problem for at least the last 15-20
years..

they have - my point is that it's so bad now it's entirely mainstream (which
is kind of good because frankly nothing can happen until people act
together, part of which is letting others know WHAT they are doing, what
they expect, & how it will help. farmers don't do that. city people have to
hunt down information on what's going on - it's mainly the very small &/or
organic/free range farmers who do all the educating of the broader public. i
think with things like the explosion in farmer's markets & general food
awareness really helps - but equally your typical wheat 'n' sheep farmer has
NO dialogue with anyone beyond his own contacts.

:-)) Well don't we all. But it is a long and not well publicised
battle. If people don't buy or read the rural newspapers or follow
rural issues then they certainly don't see or know of what is
happening. Farmers are **** poor at getting their issues across to
the wider population and I'm not sure if that is because farmers are
such a conservative bunch or because the rest of the population would
rather watch idiot shows on TV to finding out what could come around
and bite them on the arse or what it is.

probably both. but we all know that farmers can (and do) whinge for
australia, but when it comes to advertising their successes, bringing their
experience to other people, & whatnot, they're just not there like they
should be (although i do realise they're busy ;-) - you have to watch
slightly obscure shows on the abc to even realise :-). and so they partly
perpetuate their own p.r. problems & are seen to be taking "handouts" for
"non-viable" properties & whatnot, & all this sort of silly stuff. (and
again, the nats are in a position to do good p.r., but they're too caught up
with which association is mad at them, and trying to appease the libs, & all
this sort of thing.)

perhaps you're right & innate conservatism for one's own worldview is really
the only problem. yet clearly they're not cut & dried just plain
conservative - ime country peeps are very open-minded & do try not to judge.
it must be some sort of "with us or against us" mindset that's just not
helpful. i'm not sure.
kylie

0tterbot wrote:

again speaking for sydney - most fresh food there is grown in the sydney
basin - it's local :-) (for now, anyway).

I think you have just supported his argument very well.
Can I suggest having a look at the labels on boxen that your grocer gets
his produce from. You could even think about the Coles fresh food add
and how all those scenes are taken all so clearly in the Sydney Basin.

Even my cousin the farmer was alarmed to find that Australia imports
more food stuff ($125b pa) than it exports (82b pa), but he quickly
started looking to see what he could grow of the imports.

I think Toowoomba residents missed a good opportunity, but one must not
discount the role both the local media (by refusal to use neutral and
noninflammatory terminology in its reporting) *and* the Federal Govt (by
demanding that a referendum had to be held and won in order to get Fed
funding for the project) had in the defeat of the referendum.

Charles

Toowoomba, and indeed most southern downs media, seldom has content that is
not inflammatory, overemotional, biased etc. And neutrality was flushed down
the toilet, along with the water, a looong time ago. Don't expect reason
from that end of things. The idiot majority outnumbers the normals waaay too
much.
--
If some days are diamonds and some days are stone....
Then some days I live in a quarry!!

"0tterbot" wrote in message
...
"Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow wrote in message
...
I've got no sympathy with whingers who live in the city and complain
about the nasties in their water or the lack of it or anything about
it. They need to get off their arses and see what is happening in
some of our rural communities. It's simply appalling and sucking the
guts out of the country. I know you've lived in the country so you
have some idea, but most people are simply clueless except for how it
impacts on them as the water comes readily from their taps.

since i got here (the country) i've really noticed what a gap there is
between city people & country people. sadly, it's the majority (city
people) who just haven't got the first idea about anything! but the onus
is on country people to stop whingeing & educate them. the two lots are
entirely interdependent, but you wouldn't know that from observing them.

I can't stomach whinging about no water for lawns when I know of one
community where the hairdressers are saying to clients that they can't
wash their hair so come to the appointment with washed hair. And the
hairdressers are only the tip of the iceberg. Everyone in that
community is hurting and going broke. We'll leave this drought with
devastated rural communities.

i agree, but equally, now is the time for rural peeps to be rethinking how
they do things. i realise they ARE rethinking how to do things, of course,
but frankly they can't rethink soon enough. they need to have rethought 5
years ago, because implementing change takes time. but 5 years ago they
thought they were a protected species & change hasn't been fast enough.
climate change & global warming were known phenomena 5 years ago; i find
it sad things need to become critical before people rethink some of their
methodology, but there you have it, it's the way it's always been.

i think this post sounds like i'm really down on farmers & of course i'm
not. the whole country needs a reality check while they're sitting with
their air-conditioning on worrying about climate change. it defies belief,
really. i blame the government g
kylie


Having lived in SE Qld all my life until last year, opinions don't change
very quickly. In fact they hardly change at all. Farmer's there are still
farming, refusing to obey the new logging regulations, refusing to obey the
new dam limitations, refusing to conserve water at all, etc etc and I don't
see my generation changing the way things have been done ever since their
grandfather's first started farming australia european style. Maajor
education is needed in queensland's farming communities.

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 01:01:36 +0000, 0tterbot wrote:

perhaps g. sarcasm is not the best method of communication. however, you
can consider the statements still stand (if not directed to you) as some
people evidently believe these things!

Perhaps so. I agree that your statements are sound, people *do* believe
that piffle I repeated, but then the general public usually does, by
necessity fall to the lowest common denominator. One only had to look at
the people on the SBS discussion program (Insight, I think) who were on
with Di Thorley (Toowoomba mayor), gingerly sniffing the bottled water
from Singapore that was offered for tasting, and being genuinely
incredulous that it *didn't* smell like faeces, to see how stupid "people"
are.

I think Toowoomba residents missed a good opportunity, but one must not
discount the role both the local media (by refusal to use neutral and
noninflammatory terminology in its reporting) *and* the Federal Govt (by
demanding that a referendum had to be held and won in order to get Fed
funding for the project) had in the defeat of the referendum.

well of course. (anyone who wants to blame the govt for anything at all is
fine by me g)

Ahh, well I am not a govt basher per se, even though I didn't vote for
them, I do believe that a society (as a whole) gets the govt it deserves. :-)

I blame the Govt (federal) because they forced the Toowoomba council to
hold a referendum on what is essentially an infrastructure issue. I can't
recall when any level of govt in Oz was forced to go to the electorate on
such an issue. (Forgetting the importance of this issue just for a moment)
Governments of all levels are elected to make decisions on what
infrastructure needs to be built at whatever level it operates, so that
the needs of its constituents (both present and future) are met as well as
possible.

what of the responsibility of individuals though, to not be total morons
& to take some responsibility towards saving themselves (e.g. the good
burghers of toowoomba)? it's all very well to blame the tabloids - why
does nobody question what kind of person reads them & believes that
stuff, because without their audience they clearly would have no
influence..?!

Too true! One only has to look at the issue of so called- reality TV,
*someone* must be watching these bores!

However on the issue of responsibility. Well given my feelings on the
general public, I would say that the average dude and dudette were really
behind the 8-ball. If they knew they were not in possession of the facts,
where were they to turn? To the media, of course...reporting on issues is
their job after all..in this case though, the media (all of it, including
ABC and SBS as well as the Toowoomba Chronicle) let down the uninformed
average citizen badly. So badly that as a single example, the very day
after the referendum, the same outlets that had been exclusively using
such terminology as "Recycled sewage" suddenly discovered that the term
"Recycled water" was a valid description.

sigh

Charles
--
If some days are diamonds and some days are stone....
Then some days I live in a quarry!!

"meeee" wrote in message
...
Having lived in SE Qld all my life until last year, opinions don't change
very quickly. In fact they hardly change at all. Farmer's there are still
farming, refusing to obey the new logging regulations, refusing to obey
the new dam limitations, refusing to conserve water at all, etc etc and I
don't see my generation changing the way things have been done ever since
their grandfather's first started farming australia european style. Maajor
education is needed in queensland's farming communities.

i fully concur i had not thought about queenslanders when i wrote that g
kylie

"Terryc" wrote in message
...
0tterbot wrote:

again speaking for sydney - most fresh food there is grown in the sydney
basin - it's local :-) (for now, anyway).

I think you have just supported his argument very well.

lol - i can see that :-)
kylie

In article ,
"0tterbot" wrote:

since i got here (the country) i've really noticed what a gap there is
between city people & country people. sadly, it's the majority (city people)
who just haven't got the first idea about anything! but the onus is on
country people to stop whingeing & educate them. the two lots are entirely
interdependent, but you wouldn't know that from observing them.

What differences have you seen? I'm asking because I've had a couple of
country people tell me I'm more like a country person than a city person, and
it seems to be a compliment ;-)

What do you think the new ddrought assistance package will do? Will it
prolong unsustainable farming, or is it OK?

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

"Charles" wrote in message
news
Ahh, well I am not a govt basher per se, even though I didn't vote for
them, I do believe that a society (as a whole) gets the govt it deserves.
:-)

ah, you are a _people_ basher ;-)

however, i must say i find your stance on that awfully unfair to people who
_didn't_ vote for govt of the day but get them anyway. (i feel sorry for
myself quite frankly).

I blame the Govt (federal) because they forced the Toowoomba council to
hold a referendum on what is essentially an infrastructure issue.

one of the things that irks me about them is they always find ways to get
their own way. let's not get started g.
kyile

"0tterbot" wrote in message
...
"meeee" wrote in message
...
Having lived in SE Qld all my life until last year, opinions don't change
very quickly. In fact they hardly change at all. Farmer's there are still
farming, refusing to obey the new logging regulations, refusing to obey
the new dam limitations, refusing to conserve water at all, etc etc and I
don't see my generation changing the way things have been done ever since
their grandfather's first started farming australia european style.
Maajor education is needed in queensland's farming communities.

i fully concur i had not thought about queenslanders when i wrote that g
kylie

Lol...certain qlders

In article ,
"Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow wrote:

Farmers were talking about Global warming and climate change long
before the bulk of the population. Only the real lunatic city fringe
were talking about those things when I knew of dead boring and very
conservative farmers who'd noticed the impact on their land. They had
not only started talking about it but were also doing something about
it. It all started with dry land salinity problems anfdGod knows
farmers have been working on that problem for at least the last 15-20
years..

I think I posted about it here at the time, but we went to WA a few years ago
and drove through part of the wheat belt. I was fascinated and amused to see
contour ploughing, swaling, and even alley cropping going on -- all the
permie/greenie/hippy stuff! And a local told us that they were starting to
see an improvement, even though it looked to me that none of the techniques
had been in use very long.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 11:46:52 +0000, 0tterbot wrote:

"Charles" wrote in message
news
Ahh, well I am not a govt basher per se, even though I didn't vote for
them, I do believe that a society (as a whole) gets the govt it deserves.
:-)

ah, you are a _people_ basher ;-)

Yes, I guess I am :-) I see the great unwashed (myself included) as so
often less than they should be.

however, i must say i find your stance on that awfully unfair to people
who _didn't_ vote for govt of the day but get them anyway. (i feel sorry
for myself quite frankly).

As do I (for myself and for us all at times)

one of the things that irks me about them is they always find ways to
get their own way. let's not get started g.

No indeed, let's not get started :-) We've probably already gone too far
from the remit of this group ;-)

Charles
--
If some days are diamonds and some days are stone....
Then some days I live in a quarry!!

"Chookie" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow wrote:

Farmers were talking about Global warming and climate change long
before the bulk of the population. Only the real lunatic city fringe
were talking about those things when I knew of dead boring and very
conservative farmers who'd noticed the impact on their land. They had
not only started talking about it but were also doing something about
it. It all started with dry land salinity problems anfdGod knows
farmers have been working on that problem for at least the last 15-20
years..

I think I posted about it here at the time, but we went to WA a few years
ago
and drove through part of the wheat belt. I was fascinated and amused to
see
contour ploughing, swaling, and even alley cropping going on -- all the
permie/greenie/hippy stuff! And a local told us that they were starting
to
see an improvement, even though it looked to me that none of the
techniques
had been in use very long.


That's very encouraging...at least part of australia is listening. Hopefully
it will eventually trickle over to our side of things
--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You
may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

"Ms Leebee" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Terryc wrote:
What a thick dipstick.
So, what is the difference between the water running continuously in
the hand basin whilst you shave and/or clean your teeth and it
running continuously in the shower for the extra time it takes to
shave and/or clean your teeth,.

The idea is that you don't run the water continuously while shaving
or brushing your teeth.

A lot of people do.


I thought it had been drummed into everyone pretty well not to run water
while brushing, not to hose driveways, and not to water lawns. I'm just
shocked that people still do these things.

Jen