Sean,

Bonsai is a gentle sport, and most of us tend toward the kindness
thingy.



I've decided to get my feet wet with this Bonsai thingie.
I've always
marveled at these interesting trees whenever I visit a nursery
and my
curiousity have finally piqued a desire to try it out for
myself.
I have visited a few websites in the last week and I see
*recommended*
trees for beginners and such, but I live in southern New
Hampshire and I am
wanting try trees from my local area. I realize that this will
most likely
be more difficult, but I really want to go this route. Why?
Because I love
this state and the forests here and I'm an obstinate Yankee.
That's why!

I'm all for it (but see below). I pefer native trees and shrubs
also, and there are a lot of good candidates in your area (but,
again, see below).

I've pulled some very small saplings with my children and we
potted them
individually yesterday in small containers. One is very
shallow, the others
are just small but I'm being given some true bonsai pots today
for the
others.

What we have so far is:
Sugar Maple
White Maple
Hemlock
White pine
I intend on getting white birch as well.


None of the trees you "pulled" (I hope I don't take that
literally) make very good bonsai, or if they do, they don't make
particularly easy bonsai for a beginner.

The Hemlock and white pine are bonsaiable, but not easily. And,
dug at this time of year, they're probably impossible -- even way
up "nawth" in NH, where spring is about 20 miutes old and lasts
for an hour or so. ;-)


I realize they will most likely all die, being a first attempt,
but I'm going to stick it out and keep trying!

Great. But let me suggest that an occasional success early on is
a very nice incentive toward continuing the sport of bonsai.


Is there any suggestions anyone can make for a complete newbie
in this
arena?


We always have suggestions:

1. Go to the library and check out a book or two on bonsai (or
buy one from your local bookstore -- the new Sunset (pub.)
"Bonsai" is inexpensive and excellent. RD Home Handbooks,
"Bonsai" by Harry Tomlinson also is cheap and very good). They
won't tell you much about local trees, but they will thoroughly
ground you in the horticultural aspects of growing trees in small
pots. If the library as "Bonsai from the Wild" by Nick Lenz,
read it. It's all about trees from your area. It is out of
print and pretty much unavailable except at completely stupid
prices on e-bay, but a New England public library may have gotten
a copy because of its local slant.

2. Go to a local nursery (best) or Home Depot/Lowes garden
center) and purchase a one- or three-gallon size tree with small
leaves -- a native if you can find one, or something else like a
privet or boxwood or Chinese elm. Then, using the info in the
books you have do some work on the top -- the branches, the
trunk, etc. -- saving the root work until NEXT spring.

3. Join a local bonsai club. You will find listings of clubs at
www.bci-bonsai.com and www.absbonsai.org. Go to meetings, talk
and learn from members. Have fun.

4. Ask questions here -- and welcome.

5. For the future, bonsiable trees from your area, might include
the red maple (Acer rubrum), various hawthorns, the yellow birch
(B. alleghaniensis), the American hornbeam (Carpinus
caroliniana), the hophornbeam (Ostrya virginiana), the hackberry
(Celtis sp.), apples (Malus sp.), some of the cherry/plum family
(Prunus sp.), and others with leaves under 2 inches (or so). As
you gain experience, the list expands.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase
'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman

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This is why you really need to do some basic reading. Growing in the
ground will allow much faster development which will enable you to make
many choices of new branches, leaders, develop girth, root spread
(nebari), aged bark and many of the other desirable characteristics.

The roots that develop are often more readily cut back if the plant is
vigorous.

If you have the ground, patience and some horticultural skill, there's
nothing to stop you from planting out as many as you can and allowing
them to develop as experimental stock. No matter what you do, I
guarantee you'll get faster results this way. Meanwhile read,read,read.


Cheers

Kev Bailey
Vale Of Clwyd, North Wales


Thanks for your (and all others') reply, but I have one question about
one
of your comments.
That is not the way to go. You need to grow them in the ground for a
few
years
first.
snip
It's that comment...won't they grow too large and have far too many
roots if
they are grown in the ground "for a few years"? Or, once removed from
the
ground, will I be pruning the living bejeezus out of them to make them
suitable?
The reason I am not buying nursery plants or ready-made bonsai is the
cost.
I'm not exactly rich and can't see paying money to murder poor innocent
plants to get good at this. I've got a fairly decent track record with
vegetable gardening and indoor plants where, while not exactly along the
same science of Bonsai, at least I have had a little luck with
horticulture.
And I have plenty of patience.

Again, thanks for your reply!

Sean.



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Sean:
When you plant the trees in the ground, try and place a large ceramic
tile or some of those humidity trays that arte useless, several inches
under the tree. This will force the roots to spread out rather than
downwards. They will be easier to prune when the time come to put them
in pots...

Good luck, and enjoy the hobby... it is addicting!

Carl L. Rosner - near Atlantic City zone 6/7
http://bmee.net/rosner
http://www.jamesbaird.com/cgi-bin/Ja...d=00000068 48


Sean Lowe wrote:

snip
It's that comment...won't they grow too large and have far too many roots if
they are grown in the ground "for a few years"? Or, once removed from the
ground, will I be pruning the living bejeezus out of them to make them
suitable?
The reason I am not buying nursery plants or ready-made bonsai is the cost.
I'm not exactly rich and can't see paying money to murder poor innocent
plants to get good at this. I've got a fairly decent track record with
vegetable gardening and indoor plants where, while not exactly along the
same science of Bonsai, at least I have had a little luck with horticulture.
And I have plenty of patience.

Again, thanks for your reply!

Sean.




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************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Thanks for your (and all others') reply, but I have one
question about one
of your comments.
That is not the way to go. You need to grow them in the
ground for a few
years first.

snip
It's that comment...won't they grow too large and have far too
many roots if
they are grown in the ground "for a few years"? Or, once
removed from the
ground, will I be pruning the living bejeezus out of them to
make them
suitable?

Well, one of the goals of bonsai is to make trees that LOOK old.
A skinny tree with a pencil-thin trunk stuffed into a tiny pot
might technically be a bonsai (which means plant-in-a-pot), but
they certainly won't be _good_ bonsai -- or even _fair_ bonsai.
And they will NOT look old.

We will plant trees in the ground and let them grow for a couple
of years, or more -- sometimes letting them get several feet
tall -- and let their trunks fatten. THEN we'll dig them up, and
put them in large-diameter, shallow pots (maybe a 10-gallon
nursery pot cut doan to 6 inches deep), doing a considerable
amount of root and top pruning in the process. Then we'll let
them grow out again for a few years -- 2, 4 or more, repotting as
necessary if the roots start to fill up this pot. We may do some
basic wiring and shaping during this period, but usually nothing
more than hard pruning at the end of every growing season.

You can't NOT have too many roots. They can be too long (but
they also can be cut back).

Assuming at this point that 4-8 years have gone by, we THEN may
put the tree in a bonsai pot, but still a larger pot than may be
its final destiny. Depending on the species, and the style, we
could have a tree whose trunk is 2 inches wide and a tree that
stands 8-10 inches tall. At this point, we will start hard
training -- wring, pruning, pinching and shaping the tree. In a
year or two, we may repot, pruning and thinning roots, and moving
the tree into a smaller (maybe final, but maybe not) pot, and
will continue the training of the top.

Perhaps 10 years will have passed before we have a "bonsai." And
many more years will have passed before we have a "Bonsai."


The reason I am not buying nursery plants or ready-made bonsai
is the cost.
I'm not exactly rich and can't see paying money to murder poor
innocent
plants to get good at this. I've got a fairly decent track
record with
vegetable gardening and indoor plants where, while not exactly
along the
same science of Bonsai, at least I have had a little luck with
horticulture.
And I have plenty of patience.


You don't ever need to buy a ready-made bonsai, but in MY town,
you can buy a juniper (procumbans nana, or chinensis) with a
one-inch trunk in a one-gallon pot at a GOOD nursery for $3.95.
These trees make as near to "instant bonsai" as you can get
(though you're still much better off working on the top the first
year and the roots in the second). You can buy a Satsuki azalea
with a 2-inch trunk for $5.00 +. They'll need a little more work
(and time) to become a nice pre-bonsai, but still are nice plants
which will give you pretty flowers the next year (if you let
them).

You don't have to be even moderately rich to buy a few of these.

It would, BTW, be a lot easier to reply if you'd drop the NOSPAM
stuff from your e-mail address for messages you post to the
list/news group.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase
'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman

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++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Thanks in advance for any guidance/suggestions/insight,
Sean Lowe...

Sean,

There are a couple of good bonsai nurseries in your area (Southern New
Hampshire) where you can either buy some rather inexpensive pre-bonsai
nursery stock, ask some questions or just look around at what is
available and the particular plants and styles.

Both are in Massachusetts. One is Bonsai West in Littleton, MA
http://www.bonsaiwest.com/index.html
The other is New England Bonsai in Bellingham, MA
http://www.nebonsai.com/

As a newbie I've found both nurseries to be very helpful.

Craig

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Craig O'Connell wrote:

Thanks in advance for any guidance/suggestions/insight,
Sean Lowe...

Sean,

There are a couple of good bonsai nurseries in your area (Southern New
Hampshire) where you can either buy some rather inexpensive pre-bonsai
nursery stock, ask some questions or just look around at what is
available and the particular plants and styles.

Both are in Massachusetts. One is Bonsai West in Littleton, MA
http://www.bonsaiwest.com/index.html
The other is New England Bonsai in Bellingham, MA
http://www.nebonsai.com/

As a newbie I've found both nurseries to be very helpful.

Craig

Excellent suggestion. Both are great places to learn. Both nurseries do workshops
and have other events. Don't miss any opportunity to go!

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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Sean:
What everybody is telling you is that bonsai is not for those who want
instant gratification. Time and patience are the name of the game. What's
more, some of us believe that it is the process of creating a bonsai, not
the result, which really counts.
If you accept these basic ideas, you'll be on your way to becoming a bonsai
person.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sean Lowe"
To:
Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 6:18 PM
Subject: [IBC] Complete newbie (please be kind)


"Iris Cohen" wrote in message
...
I think it is better to be mean to newbies before they get hopelessly
addicted.

snip

Thanks for your (and all others') reply, but I have one question about one
of your comments.
That is not the way to go. You need to grow them in the ground for a few
years
first.
snip
It's that comment...won't they grow too large and have far too many roots
if
they are grown in the ground "for a few years"? Or, once removed from the
ground, will I be pruning the living bejeezus out of them to make them
suitable?
The reason I am not buying nursery plants or ready-made bonsai is the
cost.
I'm not exactly rich and can't see paying money to murder poor innocent
plants to get good at this. I've got a fairly decent track record with
vegetable gardening and indoor plants where, while not exactly along the
same science of Bonsai, at least I have had a little luck with
horticulture.
And I have plenty of patience.

Again, thanks for your reply!

Sean.


************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++

************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Sean, by now you have received a lot of very good advice. I have followed a
similar path to the one you have outlined for the last few years so perhaps
my experiences can be of assistance. Here are my suggestions:

1. find a local bonsai club if you can and pitch in. Local clubs are a font
of local wisdom plus you can watch the more experienced members work on
their trees. There is nothing like a local club to give you the exposure to
what works in your area. Do volunteer to help. The learning from doing
what will later be menial tasks will be invaluable to you later and your
club now.

2. follow the advise about reading. Your local library is a wonderful
resource. If they do not have the book you think you want to read, such as
the "Bonsai from the Wild" previously suggested, they can probably order it
for you.

3. get dirty. There is nothing like doing it to make something real in your
mind. You will kill a number of trees from shear ignorance so do use the
local material. This has the advantage of being acclimated to your area
which means one less stress on the plant. It also means that the locals
consider it a weed so no one minds too much if one dies. I call this my
"kill-a-weed" stage and I'm still in it.

4. salvage older material. Here is an opportunity to do two good things at
the same time. In many cases, older landscaping material is being ripped
out for new construction or just to re-do the landscaping, maybe even your
own yard. The old material is destined for the landfill. Contact a local
landscaper, contractor or large company which is likely to have this type of
activity going on. I work for a university, so such activity is frequently
planned. I've gotten my club in to salvage some of that material which has
grown in the ground and been maintained by our Grounds Department for up to
50 years. If it survives this collection, it's ready to work on in a year
or two. If not, then it's trip to the landfill was delayed just a short
time.

Bonsai doesn't have to be expensive but it must be fun or you will not do it
for very long. Welcome to the lunacy and have fun - jay

Jay Beckenbach - Melrose, FL - Zone 8b/9a


-----Original Message-----
From: Sean Lowe ]
Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 8:41 AM
Subject: Complete newbie (please be kind)


Hi all,

I've decided to get my feet wet with this Bonsai thingie. I've always
marveled at these interesting trees whenever I visit a nursery and my
curiousity have finally piqued a desire to try it out for myself.
I have visited a few websites in the last week and I see *recommended*
trees for beginners and such, but I live in southern New Hampshire and I am
wanting try trees from my local area. I realize that this will most likely
be more difficult, but I really want to go this route. Why? Because I love
this state and the forests here and I'm an obstinate Yankee. That's why!
I've pulled some very small saplings with my children and we potted them
individually yesterday in small containers. One is very shallow, the others
are just small but I'm being given some true bonsai pots today for the
others.

What we have so far is:
Sugar Maple
White Maple
Hemlock
White pine
I intend on getting white birch as well.

I realize they will most likely all die, being a first attempt, but I'm
going to stick it out and keep trying!
Is there any suggestions anyone can make for a complete newbie in this
arena?

Thanks in advance for any guidance/suggestions/insight,
Sean Lowe...

************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Sean, by now you have received a lot of very good advice. I have followed a
similar path to the one you have outlined for the last few years so perhaps
my experiences can be of assistance. Here are my suggestions:

1. find a local bonsai club if you can and pitch in. Local clubs are a font
of local wisdom plus you can watch the more experienced members work on
their trees. There is nothing like a local club to give you the exposure to
what works in your area. Do volunteer to help. The learning from doing
what will later be menial tasks will be invaluable to you later and your
club now.

2. follow the advise about reading. Your local library is a wonderful
resource. If they do not have the book you think you want to read, such as
the "Bonsai from the Wild" previously suggested, they can probably order it
for you.

3. get dirty. There is nothing like doing it to make something real in your
mind. You will kill a number of trees from shear ignorance so do use the
local material. This has the advantage of being acclimated to your area
which means one less stress on the plant. It also means that the locals
consider it a weed so no one minds too much if one dies. I call this my
"kill-a-weed" stage and I'm still in it.

4. salvage older material. Here is an opportunity to do two good things at
the same time. In many cases, older landscaping material is being ripped
out for new construction or just to re-do the landscaping, maybe even your
own yard. The old material is destined for the landfill. Contact a local
landscaper, contractor or large company which is likely to have this type of
activity going on. I work for a university, so such activity is frequently
planned. I've gotten my club in to salvage some of that material which has
grown in the ground and been maintained by our Grounds Department for up to
50 years. If it survives this collection, it's ready to work on in a year
or two. If not, then it's trip to the landfill was delayed just a short
time.

Bonsai doesn't have to be expensive but it must be fun or you will not do it
for very long. Welcome to the lunacy and have fun - jay

Jay Beckenbach - Melrose, FL - Zone 8b/9a


-----Original Message-----
From: Sean Lowe ]
Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 8:41 AM
Subject: Complete newbie (please be kind)


Hi all,

I've decided to get my feet wet with this Bonsai thingie. I've always
marveled at these interesting trees whenever I visit a nursery and my
curiousity have finally piqued a desire to try it out for myself.
I have visited a few websites in the last week and I see *recommended*
trees for beginners and such, but I live in southern New Hampshire and I am
wanting try trees from my local area. I realize that this will most likely
be more difficult, but I really want to go this route. Why? Because I love
this state and the forests here and I'm an obstinate Yankee. That's why!
I've pulled some very small saplings with my children and we potted them
individually yesterday in small containers. One is very shallow, the others
are just small but I'm being given some true bonsai pots today for the
others.

What we have so far is:
Sugar Maple
White Maple
Hemlock
White pine
I intend on getting white birch as well.

I realize they will most likely all die, being a first attempt, but I'm
going to stick it out and keep trying!
Is there any suggestions anyone can make for a complete newbie in this
arena?

Thanks in advance for any guidance/suggestions/insight,
Sean Lowe...

************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

wsallen wrote:

snip

The reason I am not buying nursery plants or ready-made bonsai is the cost.
I'm not exactly rich and can't see paying money to murder poor innocent
plants to get good at this. I've got a fairly decent track record with
vegetable gardening and indoor plants where, while not exactly along the
same science of Bonsai, at least I have had a little luck with
horticulture.
And I have plenty of patience.

I hear you there! However if you purchase some hardy type plants that strike
easily from cuttings you can get several trees for the price of one. In my
own area (Perth, Western Australia) that would be Ficus sp. and Chinese
Elms.

Join your local club. The are an invaluable source of local knowledge,
cuttings, books (club library) and demonstrations.

Cheers,
Heidi Aussie

I understand Sean's reluctance to buy nursery material, but from my perspective,
the money I spent on trees that didn't make it was the cost of my initial
education. It's going to cost something either way.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Craig Cowing wrote in message ...
wsallen wrote:
snip
I hear you there! However if you purchase some hardy type plants that
strike
easily from cuttings you can get several trees for the price of one. In
my
own area (Perth, Western Australia) that would be Ficus sp. and Chinese
Elms.

Join your local club. The are an invaluable source of local knowledge,
cuttings, books (club library) and demonstrations.

I understand Sean's reluctance to buy nursery material, but from my
perspective,
the money I spent on trees that didn't make it was the cost of my initial
education. It's going to cost something either way.

Entirely true. I am making ongoing 'payments' on my bonsai education.
Including a large juniper styled at a workshop by Megumi Bennett (well it
still has some green bits, kinda green, well abit faded actually.......
There are ways you can minimise those payments though.

Cheers,
Heidi Aussie