David Hare-Scott wrote:
songbird wrote:
David Hare-Scott wrote:
...
The first thing our new Prime Minister will do will be to neuter any
action on climate change. And that is quite enough politics.

if you wait for the politicians in any country
at this point you are wasting time and probably
just looking for yet another reason to
procrastinate.


What a dopy argument. The amount that the individual can do alone is
completely trivial.

only people who put themselves in that category
are certain to remain there. the rest of us refuse
such classifications and do what we can. some may
appear trivial, but here is one example to counter
your statement.

in Africa there was a desert reforestation project
being conducted and the guy working on it was really
discouraged because so few of the projects or trees
would survive (if even one survived that was a gain
for that small space as far as i was concerned).
then he noticed bits of green growing from the ground
that were native plants, but in fact they were sprouts
from trees that were never allowed or trained to grow
larger (over grazing, trampled, cut off for firewood).
so he started talking to the people about how if they
would allow these sprouts to grow and train a few to
get larger then they could have trees again, that would
survive, but the people had to protect them and work a
bit to get the sprouts growing.

the result was not a few trees in a small area, but
over five million hectares of near desert returned to
more tree cover. that added wind-break on a hot day
often means the double or triple of a crop return. not
counting the fruits and firewood and the many returning
animals and insects or improved soil. how many tons of
extra carbon put back into the soil? no measurement
but it wouldn't be a small amount.

what was the cost? nothing. it wasn't a formal
project sponsored by any government. it worked
by word of mouth as farmers saw the actual results
and how things improved.

here is a link which gives more details:

http://permaculturenews.org/2013/08/...t-cant-see-it/


another smaller example would be the Strong Bees
of the Chikukwa, but i won't spoil that story by
attempting to summarize. it's a good read, these
people just did it and they'll keep on going in
some form even if the government or international
organizations abandon them again.

http://permaculturenews.org/2013/08/...he-full-story/


Millions of people together can do something but before
you have that organised the pollies who opposed it would be out of office
anyway and the job is already done. A grass-roots movement might force
action on a government but the effect they can have instead of government
action is quite insufficient.

if it gets done it surely isn't insufficient.


If you want to deal with climate change then elect a government that will
do it.

too slow. doing is faster. but, yes, vote,
and i do.


do what you can locally, find others to work
with who aren't obstructionists and pool
resources and efforts.

By all means, one has to lead by example if trying to bring about change but
don't fantasise that it will have any effect compared with (say) my local
port that exports hundreds of millions of tons of coal per year.

add the right scrubbers and processes and that
becomes much less of a problem. not that i think
it's a good idea to still be burning coal, but i
doubt China or India will be giving it up any time
soon. if we can encourage them to add better CO2
scrubbing then we've gained something where if we
just throw our hands up and say nothing can be
done, then we've fallen victim to a fantasy far
worse than hoping people will make needed changes.


songbird

"songbird" wrote in message
...
David Hare-Scott wrote:
songbird wrote:
David Hare-Scott wrote:
...
The first thing our new Prime Minister will do will be to neuter any
action on climate change. And that is quite enough politics.

if you wait for the politicians in any country
at this point you are wasting time and probably
just looking for yet another reason to
procrastinate.


What a dopy argument. The amount that the individual can do alone is
completely trivial.

only people who put themselves in that category
are certain to remain there. the rest of us refuse
such classifications and do what we can. some may
appear trivial, but here is one example to counter
your statement.

'Bird, David and I both live in Oz and since Oz is the home of permaculture,
he and I wopuld both know of multiple examples where those sorts of projects
have been implemented and are working in the 3rd world. In the 3rd world
people still know how to perform hard physical work. They will put in
personal physical effort wtihout a tractor or an air conditioner being
available or even sought.

Sadly you, like David and I both live in the 1st world and that is where the
problems lie and from where they stem. The 3rd world knows that they have
to do without unless they do for themsleves and they (with the excepton of
the emerging tiger economies) arent' where the solutions lie. Our 1st world
is not the same at all. It's a greedy, rapacious, unthinking, uncaring
place where everyone buys new T shirts every year.

Now you may wonder why I ended that sentence with the phrase about T shirts,
but T shirts are an analogy for so many of the ills of our 1st world. We
export the work, we export the pollution of production, we import the profit
and the goods - you'd know enough to fill in the rest of the analogy I'm
sure.


Millions of people together can do something but before
you have that organised the pollies who opposed it would be out of office
anyway and the job is already done. A grass-roots movement might force
action on a government but the effect they can have instead of government
action is quite insufficient.

if it gets done it surely isn't insufficient.

In the 1st world where the problems stem, it can't get done without
political input and legistlation. It doesn't get done because you and me
recycle our cans and bottles and compost and grow food.

David sees coal by the millions of tons of boat loads being exported from a
port near him. That coal is going to pollute a 3rd world country so we can
buy back T shirts and breathe more carbon rich air produced by that 3rd
world making the T shirt.

If you want to deal with climate change then elect a government that
will
do it.

too slow. doing is faster. but, yes, vote,
and i do.

And that is all any of us can do in our positions (other than reccyling our
cans and bottle and growing and composting)

do what you can locally, find others to work
with who aren't obstructionists and pool
resources and efforts.

By all means, one has to lead by example if trying to bring about change
but
don't fantasise that it will have any effect compared with (say) my local
port that exports hundreds of millions of tons of coal per year.

add the right scrubbers and processes and that
becomes much less of a problem.

It will if they are compelled by legislation to install scrubbers. Until
then they are not going to do it out of the goodness of their managerial
hearts because then they will have to pay out less to shareholders.

not that i think
it's a good idea to still be burning coal, but i
doubt China or India will be giving it up any time
soon.

They might if countries like Australia and other coal producers have
legislative restrictions that apply. Of course that supposes that the 1st
world will think about its T shirts.

if we can encourage them to add better CO2
scrubbing then we've gained something where if we
just throw our hands up and say nothing can be
done, then we've fallen victim to a fantasy far
worse than hoping people will make needed changes.

OK 'Bird, off you go and tell China and India to put in scrubbers. I'll
join you in doing so as I'm sure will David and every other poster who posts
here.

A nanasecond of thinking asbout that will tell you how effective we few
will be.

Now if my country's government had some guts and was prepared to look the
Chinese government representatives in the eye and bargain like the Chinese
do, we might just manage to get some scrubbers in place in one or 2 places
in China.

songbird wrote:
David Hare-Scott wrote:
songbird wrote:
David Hare-Scott wrote:
...
The first thing our new Prime Minister will do will be to neuter
any action on climate change. And that is quite enough politics.

if you wait for the politicians in any country
at this point you are wasting time and probably
just looking for yet another reason to
procrastinate.


What a dopy argument. The amount that the individual can do alone is
completely trivial.

only people who put themselves in that category
are certain to remain there. the rest of us refuse
such classifications and do what we can. some may
appear trivial, but here is one example to counter
your statement.

in Africa there was a desert reforestation project
being conducted and the guy working on it was really
discouraged because so few of the projects or trees
would survive (if even one survived that was a gain
for that small space as far as i was concerned).
then he noticed bits of green growing from the ground
that were native plants, but in fact they were sprouts
from trees that were never allowed or trained to grow
larger (over grazing, trampled, cut off for firewood).
so he started talking to the people about how if they
would allow these sprouts to grow and train a few to
get larger then they could have trees again, that would
survive, but the people had to protect them and work a
bit to get the sprouts growing.

the result was not a few trees in a small area, but
over five million hectares of near desert returned to
more tree cover. that added wind-break on a hot day
often means the double or triple of a crop return. not
counting the fruits and firewood and the many returning
animals and insects or improved soil. how many tons of
extra carbon put back into the soil? no measurement
but it wouldn't be a small amount.

what was the cost? nothing. it wasn't a formal
project sponsored by any government. it worked
by word of mouth as farmers saw the actual results
and how things improved.

here is a link which gives more details:

http://permaculturenews.org/2013/08/...t-cant-see-it/


another smaller example would be the Strong Bees
of the Chikukwa, but i won't spoil that story by
attempting to summarize. it's a good read, these
people just did it and they'll keep on going in
some form even if the government or international
organizations abandon them again.

http://permaculturenews.org/2013/08/...he-full-story/


Millions of people together can do something but before
you have that organised the pollies who opposed it would be out of
office anyway and the job is already done. A grass-roots movement
might force action on a government but the effect they can have
instead of government action is quite insufficient.

if it gets done it surely isn't insufficient.


If you want to deal with climate change then elect a government
that will do it.

too slow. doing is faster. but, yes, vote,
and i do.


do what you can locally, find others to work
with who aren't obstructionists and pool
resources and efforts.

By all means, one has to lead by example if trying to bring about
change but don't fantasise that it will have any effect compared
with (say) my local port that exports hundreds of millions of tons
of coal per year.

add the right scrubbers and processes and that
becomes much less of a problem. not that i think
it's a good idea to still be burning coal, but i
doubt China or India will be giving it up any time
soon. if we can encourage them to add better CO2
scrubbing then we've gained something where if we
just throw our hands up and say nothing can be
done, then we've fallen victim to a fantasy far
worse than hoping people will make needed changes.


songbird

Your argument might be relevant if you would stick to the efficacy of
individual climate change action. I am not interested in debating the
generality of every situation around the world where individual action might
or might not work to bring about change. The comparison with permaculture
is just an argument by analogy which says nothing about the case at hand.
We have both said enough OT already so lets leave it there.

D

David Hare-Scott wrote:
....
What a dopy argument. The amount that the individual can do alone is
completely trivial.
....
Your argument might be relevant if you would stick to the efficacy of
individual climate change action. I am not interested in debating the
generality of every situation around the world where individual action might
or might not work to bring about change. The comparison with permaculture
is just an argument by analogy which says nothing about the case at hand.
We have both said enough OT already so lets leave it there.

i addressed the "completely trivial" point.

every bit of extra CO2 counts no matter how
it gets taken out of the air. helps avoid the
compounded series of problems later or makes
them some amount smaller.

CO2 sequestration isn't OT for gardeners.


songbird

On Fri, 6 Sep 2013 22:01:11 +1000, "David Hare-Scott"
wrote:

S.Rodgers wrote:
I've been looking at seed catalogues and seed packets on sale locally
in grocery stores, etc., and have seen that prices are much too high
to grow ones own microgreens based on the price for the small seed
packets.

Does anyone know of a source in _CANADA_ (or at the very least USA) of
mixed microgreen salad green seeds sold in bulk - i.e., priced per lb
or kg), by any chance?

I'd also prefer organic seeds, too.

Thanks so much in advance!

What exactly do you mean by "microgreens"?

D

Hi, there. Mesclun mixes, especially.

Thx!

On Fri, 6 Sep 2013 09:24:02 -0400, songbird
wrote:

David Hare-Scott wrote:
...
What exactly do you mean by "microgreens"?

sprouts?


songbird

Well, yes, I suppose sprouts can be classified as microgreens, but
sprouts are easy to buy. Things like lentils, wheatgrass, sunflower
seeds, all can be bought in bulk.

Mesclun, cannot. And the seeds are ridiculously expensive since if
you let the plants grow to maturity, then, fine. You'd not be paying
any more than any regular seed. But like sprouts, microgreens such as
baby spinach, mesclun, baby lettuces, a little packet of seeds won't
grow much and so it makes them way more expensive than if you're
buying to grow plants to full term.

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 10:16:29 -0400, Derald
wrote:

"David Hare-Scott" wrote:


What exactly do you mean by "microgreens"?
What do _you_ mean by "microgreens". As far as I can determine,
microgreens are a resurgent fad among foodies. I first saw them used in
the Oz version of "Masterchef". Some sources claim them to be
"specially bred" miniatures while others freely admit "microgreens" to
be seedlings with their first couple of true leaves. Regardless of
which, they sell at inflated prices to the gullible. True believers
claim enhanced nutritional properties; cynics wish the idea had been
theirs.
Here is a link to a brief item published by USA's propaganda
ministry:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2012/08/29/160274163/introducing-microgreens-younger-and-maybe-more-nutritious-vegetables
In it, you'll notice that at least 7 days' growth magically transforms
"sprouts" into "microgreens".
Some seedsmen actually sell "microgreens" seeds. Here is one
example. Prices are typical:
http://www.johnnyseeds.com/c-48-micro-greens.aspx

Microgreens are just a way for us apartment dwellers to have salad
greens all year around. That's the idea, anyway. I already grow
sunflower seeds, pea shoots and wheatgrass in flats in my tiny
bachelor apartment, but I'd like to expand to grow salad greens but
only as microgreens and not as full plants. I just don't have the
room or the time for that. My favourite microgreen is mesclun mix
which sells locally in grocery stores and health food store as more
expensive than greens since they're much more tender and the growers
have to use a lot more seed to get yields.

On Sat, 7 Sep 2013 09:38:28 +1000, "Farm1"
wrote:

And here is an Oz supplier (and one that I use often as I like their seeds
and range):
http://greenharvest.com.au/Sprouting...formation.html

Thanks for that link. I'm seeing that no matter what, prices are
still exhorbitant. Better when one can buy buy the gram rather than
seed packet, but still very pricey.

I was even hoping there would be a way to find a grass-roots source
where perhaps I could barter for seeds or ... something.
Unfortunately, it always comes down the same thing. 20 years ago I
couldn't get involved with a heritage seed exchange program because I
was living then in an apartment (actually, it was smaller than my
present bachelor apartment!) so I couldn't participate in exchanging
heirloom seeds.

Well, will keep looking around. I'm betting that instead of ordering
online, I'll have to find a local farm solution or something. sigh
Will have to figure this one out.

Thanks!

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 09:58:00 -0400, The Cook
wrote:

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 07:20:58 -0400, S.Rodgers
wrote:

I've been looking at seed catalogues and seed packets on sale locally
in grocery stores, etc., and have seen that prices are much too high
to grow ones own microgreens based on the price for the small seed
packets.

Does anyone know of a source in _CANADA_ (or at the very least USA) of
mixed microgreen salad green seeds sold in bulk - i.e., priced per lb
or kg), by any chance?

I'd also prefer organic seeds, too.

Thanks so much in advance!


Try Johnny's Seeds.
http://www.johnnyseeds.com/c-48-micro-greens.aspx

1/4 pound seems to be the smallest amount they sell.

Thanks, another great resource. I'm still seeing the same trend,
though. It's still shockingly expensive. But what was I to expect, I
guess ...

My local go-to place for all things gardening (despite being an
apartment-dweller) does sell small bulk amounts, too, but they're not
organic. And organic becomes an issue esp. the smaller the size of
the resulting produce. So I daren't go that route.

Well, thanks everyone. I have a lot to think about. Interesting
tangent on political and other issues, too. That was fun g.

I'll report back if I find a viable, cost-effective solution.

Cheers.

S.Rodgers wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2013 09:24:02 -0400, songbird
wrote:

David Hare-Scott wrote:
...
What exactly do you mean by "microgreens"?

sprouts?


songbird

Well, yes, I suppose sprouts can be classified as microgreens, but
sprouts are easy to buy. Things like lentils, wheatgrass, sunflower
seeds, all can be bought in bulk.

Mesclun, cannot. And the seeds are ridiculously expensive since if
you let the plants grow to maturity, then, fine. You'd not be paying
any more than any regular seed. But like sprouts, microgreens such as
baby spinach, mesclun, baby lettuces, a little packet of seeds won't
grow much and so it makes them way more expensive than if you're
buying to grow plants to full term.

And why would eat them so small and not let them grow? Is this a new form
of conspicuous consumption?

D

S.Rodgers wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2013 22:01:11 +1000, "David Hare-Scott"
wrote:

S.Rodgers wrote:
I've been looking at seed catalogues and seed packets on sale
locally in grocery stores, etc., and have seen that prices are much
too high to grow ones own microgreens based on the price for the
small seed packets.

Does anyone know of a source in _CANADA_ (or at the very least USA)
of mixed microgreen salad green seeds sold in bulk - i.e., priced
per lb or kg), by any chance?

I'd also prefer organic seeds, too.

Thanks so much in advance!

What exactly do you mean by "microgreens"?

D

Hi, there. Mesclun mixes, especially.

Thx!

That doesn't help me at all. I know what mesclun mix is. Why call it
something else? What is the point?

D

S.Rodgers wrote:
....
Thanks, another great resource. I'm still seeing the same trend,
though. It's still shockingly expensive. But what was I to expect, I
guess ...

My local go-to place for all things gardening (despite being an
apartment-dweller) does sell small bulk amounts, too, but they're not
organic. And organic becomes an issue esp. the smaller the size of
the resulting produce. So I daren't go that route.

ah, well yes, that's going to increase any
price unless you happen to know someone who
will grow them for you.

where are you located? might want to try
a wanted advertisement on craigslist...


Well, thanks everyone. I have a lot to think about. Interesting
tangent on political and other issues, too. That was fun g.

I'll report back if I find a viable, cost-effective solution.

if you like turnip greens check the local
grain elevators as some will carry them by
the lb for a few dollars. they will not be
rated food safe for eating directly (the seeds)
but they should sprout just fine for greens
(not likely to be organic source, but you can
always ask).

they may have other seeds or be able to source
them for you if you ask nicely.


songbird

In article ,
says...

I was even hoping there would be a way to find a grass-roots source
where perhaps I could barter for seeds or ... something.
Unfortunately, it always comes down the same thing. 20 years ago I
couldn't get involved with a heritage seed exchange program because I
was living then in an apartment (actually, it was smaller than my
present bachelor apartment!) so I couldn't participate in exchanging
heirloom seeds.

If you've the time, energy and will, and there is such a thing in your area,
what about taking a public allotment garden?

On Tue, 17 Sep 2013 13:11:58 -0500, phorbin
wrote:

In article ,
says...

I was even hoping there would be a way to find a grass-roots source
where perhaps I could barter for seeds or ... something.
Unfortunately, it always comes down the same thing. 20 years ago I
couldn't get involved with a heritage seed exchange program because I
was living then in an apartment (actually, it was smaller than my
present bachelor apartment!) so I couldn't participate in exchanging
heirloom seeds.

If you've the time, energy and will, and there is such a thing in your area,
what about taking a public allotment garden?

Thanks for that suggestion. There aren't any near me whatsoever, and
one that is far costs too much.

But back to my original question, anyone have any ideas re seeds.
I've been looking and even were I to grow a garden, the cost of those
little packets is too steep.

Hoping someone knew of a cost effective solutions for this. thx.
Heck, it's worth a try to ask the question one last time.

On Tue, 17 Sep 2013 00:43:27 -0400, songbird
wrote:

S.Rodgers wrote:
...
Thanks, another great resource. I'm still seeing the same trend,
though. It's still shockingly expensive. But what was I to expect, I
guess ...

My local go-to place for all things gardening (despite being an
apartment-dweller) does sell small bulk amounts, too, but they're not
organic. And organic becomes an issue esp. the smaller the size of
the resulting produce. So I daren't go that route.

ah, well yes, that's going to increase any
price unless you happen to know someone who
will grow them for you.

where are you located? might want to try
a wanted advertisement on craigslist...


Well, thanks everyone. I have a lot to think about. Interesting
tangent on political and other issues, too. That was fun g.

I'll report back if I find a viable, cost-effective solution.

if you like turnip greens check the local
grain elevators as some will carry them by
the lb for a few dollars. they will not be
rated food safe for eating directly (the seeds)
but they should sprout just fine for greens
(not likely to be organic source, but you can
always ask).

they may have other seeds or be able to source
them for you if you ask nicely.


songbird

Thanks, songbird. Too bad I live in such an urban area. But any tips
appreciated. I can start asking around.