Last year I got the Schultz spray with the organic marigold insecticide in
it (trying to be organic) and someone on the list (animeaux) pointed out
that the OTHER ingredient was still toxic. :-/

So, I do a little research and go buy Sulphur Powder thinking that sounds
organic. I mixed a gallon with 4 Tbsp. as per the label and sprayed my rose
bushes. Boy, all those yellow drops on the new red leaves are some kind of
ugly. And the WARNING label on the sulphur is little better than that on a
fungicide! Wear a mask, don't go in the garden for 24 hours, don't get on
your skin - right, how do you NOT get it on your skin?!?!?! And just how do
you dust the bottom of a leaf, anyway?

Googleing for an hour now in this and other newsgroups (like
rec.gardens.roses) I've seen this the most often:

1-2 Tbs Baking Soda
1 Tbs Vegetable Oil
1 Tsp to 1 Tbs Liquid Soap

With kids and animals all over the yard, I am not going to apply a
fungicide, systemic or otherwise. But the sulphur says keep kids and animals
away, too.

What do you use?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

--

John T. Jarrett
http://logontexas.com
---------------------------------------------------------------
Web Design - Program - Host - Maintain - Databases - E-Commerce
$9.95 Nationwide Dial-Up ISP new customers welcome...
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There is probably no really effective organic control for black spot. Hybrid
tea roses & their ilk require a lot of chemical controls. I use Rose and Flower
granules for systemic insecticide, which avoids insecticide spraying, but you
just have to spray for black spot. It is not that dangerous if you just keep
the kids & the pets away while you are actually spraying. If you are too
fearful, grow something else.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

There were no kids or cats out when I sprayed, but as if on cue, after my
post my big white cat woke up, looked like warmed-over crap, then puked
really bright yellow sulphur colored stuff on my floor :/

It isn't just the roses, it affects my native Winged Elm Bonsai as well -
will cover 100% of its leaves. Doesn't seem to hurt the tree particularly,
but ruins the appearance of one of my biggest bonsais for the rest of the
year.

--

John T. Jarrett
http://logontexas.com

"Iris Cohen" wrote in message
...
There is probably no really effective organic control for black spot.
Hybrid
tea roses & their ilk require a lot of chemical controls. I use Rose and
Flower
granules for systemic insecticide, which avoids insecticide spraying, but
you
just have to spray for black spot. It is not that dangerous if you just
keep
the kids & the pets away while you are actually spraying. If you are too
fearful, grow something else.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

In article , "John T. Jarrett"
wrote:

Last year I got the Schultz spray with the organic marigold insecticide in
it (trying to be organic) and someone on the list (animeaux) pointed out
that the OTHER ingredient was still toxic. :-/

So, I do a little research and go buy Sulphur Powder thinking that sounds
organic. I mixed a gallon with 4 Tbsp. as per the label and sprayed my rose
bushes. Boy, all those yellow drops on the new red leaves are some kind of
ugly. And the WARNING label on the sulphur is little better than that on a
fungicide! Wear a mask, don't go in the garden for 24 hours, don't get on
your skin - right, how do you NOT get it on your skin?!?!?! And just how do
you dust the bottom of a leaf, anyway?

Googleing for an hour now in this and other newsgroups (like
rec.gardens.roses) I've seen this the most often:

1-2 Tbs Baking Soda
1 Tbs Vegetable Oil
1 Tsp to 1 Tbs Liquid Soap

With kids and animals all over the yard, I am not going to apply a
fungicide, systemic or otherwise. But the sulphur says keep kids and animals
away, too.

What do you use?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

I suspect that where the fanciest most delicate roses are concerned, the
only way to not have black spot is to grow something else instead. The
usual organic remedy is a thorough almost weekly dousing with the formula
you outline (in various concentrations, but typically in a quart spray
bottle, one teaspoon baking soda, half a teaspoon of horticultural dormant
oil or light canola oil, & three or four drops dishwashing detergent to
help disperse the oil into the mixture -- really the soap isn't essential
& the Cornell Univrsity studies were of baking soda with horitucultural
oil only. The Cornell study showed that after four weekly dousings, both
black spot & powdery mildews were brought 95% under control (it often
eliminated black spot entirely, but never on the most susceptible
varieties). The mildew was gone with two applications, but blackspot took
recurring treatments to remain under control. The Cornell mix was a
half-percent solution of baking soda & half percent horticultural oil
(such as Sunspray), so not doesn't take much. Auburn University furthered
these tests & found that in addition to the solution sprayed on roses, it
was beneficial to start the season by spraying the ground area with
horticultural oil then placing a st erile mulch on top of the oiled
ground. This kept new spores from getting up into the roses, & also worked
really well on ground-grown veggies such melons & cucumber, & on herbs.

It needst be done regularly as only new leaves can be kept from the
affliction; already black-spotted leaves there is nothing you can do
about. Spraying has to be coordinated along with regular hand-plucking
infected leaves & discarding all leaf-fall instantly. Additionally, just
remove ALL leaves anywhere near ground-level to about 18" or so up the
branches, or splashing from waterings or normal rainfall with lift spoors
to the plant. Keeping growth airy rather than compact helps a bit. Unless
you shift to the most fungus-resistant plants, this will be an ongoing
chore, not something you can do for a while then finally be rid of the
blackspot. But I suspect this is just as true with non-organic fungicide
treatments, not the result of attempting to be organic.

Besides the spottiness left by wettable lime-sulfer, it doesn't work at
all in summer, & though moderately successful, baking soda & horticultural
oil worked better in the control studies. Neem oil also had high ratings.
I don't actually care for fancy roses but I inherited a big one & have
been able to keep the spot out of it by plucking alone. I finally cleared
out a place for a stepping-stone in front of this rose so I can stand back
there amidst the growth for as long as it takes to pluck bad leaves, I
keep the bottom clear of leaf matter. It's a hardy old thing though & this
might not be sufficient for fancier ones nor as quickly done with many
rather than one rose, & I would certainly go with the baking soda &
horticultural oil if it was getting unmanageable (or perhaps swap off now
& then first the baking soda mix, then just Neem oil, maybe now & then
lime-sulfer, so that no one thing builds up in the soil & perhaps
functions more in a "broad spectrum" manner to discourage funguses). One
negative thing about baking soda is with over use, it can alkalinize soil,
so an added annoyance could be having to lay down paper before spraying so
as not to drip too much baking soda into the soil (though the percentage
is very small & a single season's weekly applications wouldn't alkalinize
soil, & could be regarded part of the potassium percentage wanted).

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

Iris Cohen wrote:

There is probably no really effective organic control for black spot. Hybrid
tea roses & their ilk require a lot of chemical controls. I use Rose and Flower
granules for systemic insecticide, which avoids insecticide spraying, but you
just have to spray for black spot. It is not that dangerous if you just keep
the kids & the pets away while you are actually spraying. If you are too
fearful, grow something else.
Iris,

This is such nonsense, I hardly know what to say! Chemicals are NOT required to
have well grown and healthy roses and the advocation of any systemic rose product
is just plain silly, if not downright dangerous. The active ingredient in most
sytemic rose products is disulfoton, which is extremely toxic to mammals (and last
I knew, you were included in that category!) through all avenues of exposure -
inhalation, skin exposure or ingestion.

There are a number of very effective organic, low toxicity controls for rose
fungal problems including the Cornell University formula of baking soda, water and
a few drops of a surfactant like dish soap or salad oil; sulfur; and Neem oil. Even
plain old insecticidal soap can prevent the development of fungal problems but will
not control them once they appear.

Iris, you simply have to move into the 21st century - it is irresponsible and
dangerous and does the newsgroup readers a huge disservice to continually tout the
use of chemical pesticides when other means of remedy are available.

pam - gardengal

Iris Cohen wrote:

There is probably no really effective organic control for black spot. Hybrid
tea roses & their ilk require a lot of chemical controls. I use Rose and Flower
granules for systemic insecticide, which avoids insecticide spraying, but you
just have to spray for black spot. It is not that dangerous if you just keep
the kids & the pets away while you are actually spraying. If you are too
fearful, grow something else.
Iris,

This is such nonsense, I hardly know what to say! Chemicals are NOT required to
have well grown and healthy roses and the advocation of any systemic rose product
is just plain silly, if not downright dangerous. The active ingredient in most
sytemic rose products is disulfoton, which is extremely toxic to mammals (and last
I knew, you were included in that category!) through all avenues of exposure -
inhalation, skin exposure or ingestion.

There are a number of very effective organic, low toxicity controls for rose
fungal problems including the Cornell University formula of baking soda, water and
a few drops of a surfactant like dish soap or salad oil; sulfur; and Neem oil. Even
plain old insecticidal soap can prevent the development of fungal problems but will
not control them once they appear.

Iris, you simply have to move into the 21st century - it is irresponsible and
dangerous and does the newsgroup readers a huge disservice to continually tout the
use of chemical pesticides when other means of remedy are available.

pam - gardengal

Iris Cohen wrote:

There is probably no really effective organic control for black spot. Hybrid
tea roses & their ilk require a lot of chemical controls. I use Rose and Flower
granules for systemic insecticide, which avoids insecticide spraying, but you
just have to spray for black spot. It is not that dangerous if you just keep
the kids & the pets away while you are actually spraying. If you are too
fearful, grow something else.
Iris,

This is such nonsense, I hardly know what to say! Chemicals are NOT required to
have well grown and healthy roses and the advocation of any systemic rose product
is just plain silly, if not downright dangerous. The active ingredient in most
sytemic rose products is disulfoton, which is extremely toxic to mammals (and last
I knew, you were included in that category!) through all avenues of exposure -
inhalation, skin exposure or ingestion.

There are a number of very effective organic, low toxicity controls for rose
fungal problems including the Cornell University formula of baking soda, water and
a few drops of a surfactant like dish soap or salad oil; sulfur; and Neem oil. Even
plain old insecticidal soap can prevent the development of fungal problems but will
not control them once they appear.

Iris, you simply have to move into the 21st century - it is irresponsible and
dangerous and does the newsgroup readers a huge disservice to continually tout the
use of chemical pesticides when other means of remedy are available.

pam - gardengal

On 17 Mar 2003 18:38:45 GMT, (Iris Cohen) wrote:

There is probably no really effective organic control for black spot. Hybrid
tea roses & their ilk require a lot of chemical controls.


Jeezus Iris, you mean YOU don't know how to control black spot
organically! Or more likely are not interested in learning how to.
BIRC has done a lot of work along those lines and any homemade highly
bacterial compost tea WILL control black spot!!!!

http://www.better-flora.com/rose-black-spot.htm

http://www.hortnet.co.nz/publication...e/beresfd1.htm

http://www.rose-black-spot.com/


"As crude a weapon as a cave man's club the chemical barrage has been hurled at the fabric of life."
Rachel Carson

On Mon, 17 Mar 2003 22:39:15 GMT, Pam wrote:


This is such nonsense, I hardly know what to say! Chemicals are NOT required to
have well grown and healthy roses and the advocation of any systemic rose product
is just plain silly, if not downright dangerous. The active ingredient in most
sytemic rose products is disulfoton, which is extremely toxic to mammals (and last
I knew, you were included in that category!) through all avenues of exposure -
inhalation, skin exposure or ingestion.

There are a number of very effective organic, low toxicity controls for rose
fungal problems including the Cornell University formula of baking soda, water and
a few drops of a surfactant like dish soap or salad oil; sulfur; and Neem oil. Even
plain old insecticidal soap can prevent the development of fungal problems but will
not control them once they appear.

Iris, you simply have to move into the 21st century - it is irresponsible and
dangerous and does the newsgroup readers a huge disservice to continually tout the
use of chemical pesticides when other means of remedy are available.

pam - gardengal


You are so right, but don't hold your breath!

V

On Tue, 18 Mar 2003 01:27:52 GMT, Tom Jaszewski wrote:


Jeezus Iris, you mean YOU don't know how to control black spot
organically! Or more likely are not interested in learning how to.
BIRC has done a lot of work along those lines and any homemade highly
bacterial compost tea WILL control black spot!!!!

http://www.better-flora.com/rose-black-spot.htm

http://www.hortnet.co.nz/publication...e/beresfd1.htm

http://www.rose-black-spot.com/


Very good sites. I can look it up, but I was wondering if I make aerobic compost tea
using compost comprised of both bacterial and fungal properties, how long can I let
it stand without aeration before it becomes anaerobic?

Victoria

On Tue, 18 Mar 2003 03:26:31 GMT, animaux wrote:

how long can I let
it stand without aeration before it becomes anaerobic?

If the tea was produced by brewer taht kept the dissolved oxygen
levels up throughout the brew, about 12-24 hours. Longer and better
diversity if the tea is continued to be aerated.


"As crude a weapon as a cave man's club the chemical barrage has been hurled at the fabric of life."
Rachel Carson

On Wed, 19 Mar 2003 12:54:40 GMT, Tom Jaszewski wrote:


If the tea was produced by brewer taht kept the dissolved oxygen
levels up throughout the brew, about 12-24 hours. Longer and better
diversity if the tea is continued to be aerated.

All I was going to do was put an air stone and small aquarium pump into the water.
Eventually, when the are more affordable I'll get a brewer, but for now I want to
experiment with it.

One other question: If I use bat guano fresh out of the bat, will that be too
strong? Should I use finished compost to get the desired effect of disease control?

v

On Wed, 19 Mar 2003 13:44:33 GMT, animaux wrote:

On Wed, 19 Mar 2003 12:54:40 GMT, Tom Jaszewski wrote:


If the tea was produced by brewer taht kept the dissolved oxygen
levels up throughout the brew, about 12-24 hours. Longer and better
diversity if the tea is continued to be aerated.

All I was going to do was put an air stone and small aquarium pump into the water.
Eventually, when the are more affordable I'll get a brewer, but for now I want to
experiment with it.

One other question: If I use bat guano fresh out of the bat, will that be too
strong? Should I use finished compost to get the desired effect of disease control?

v
Use a pump large enough to drive 4 stones in a 5 gallon bucket. This
will take at least 36 hours to brew good tea. The other option is a
dual port pump with hoops made of 1/4" porous irrigation tubing. One
circle at the corner of the bucket and a smaller circle at the center.
Do NOT use and kind of uncomposted materials. I recommend good
vermicompost for more consistent batches. Email for more information
on nutrients.


"As crude a weapon as a cave man's club the chemical barrage has been hurled at the fabric of life."
Rachel Carson

On Thu, 20 Mar 2003 01:26:36 GMT, Tom Jaszewski wrote:


Use a pump large enough to drive 4 stones in a 5 gallon bucket. This
will take at least 36 hours to brew good tea. The other option is a
dual port pump with hoops made of 1/4" porous irrigation tubing. One
circle at the corner of the bucket and a smaller circle at the center.
Do NOT use and kind of uncomposted materials. I recommend good
vermicompost for more consistent batches. Email for more information
on nutrients.


"As crude a weapon as a cave man's club the chemical barrage has been hurled at the fabric of life."
Rachel Carson

Thanks, that's what I will do. My pump will easily drive 4 stones and I have fully
composted organic matter. I also have plenty of vermicompost. I am really looking
forward to this gardening year as I can actually do it! Last year at this time I had
fever all the time.

V