"Dan L." wrote in

m:

My neighbors labs are always pooping in my yard, I just
clean it up. It is best to be peaceful with your neighbors
and not complain, since all of my neighbors have guns

i have 4 dogs. i would not let them crap outside their area &
i clean it up if they do (the puppies are a bit unpredictable
yet g). i expect other dog owners to return the courtesy. if
they do not, i have no issues with returning their "property"
back to their yards. i have enough manure to deal with without
adding more, thank you very much.
lee
--
Last night while sitting in my chair
I pinged a host that wasn't there
It wasn't there again today
The host resolved to NSA.

In article ,
Ann wrote:

Billy expounded:

Unnatural perhaps, but house cats do live longer.

True, but spending their days looking out windows longing to be
outdoors - is constant unfulfillment really a good quality of life?

Our two kitty brothers have never been outside, but trust me, they try
constantly to get out. I feel sorry for them. However, I really
don't want to ever scrape them up off the busy road outside, as what
happened with our last cat. He came to us an outdoor cat, he was
miserable when I tried to keep him in. We had him for seven years (he
was four when he came here) before the inevitable happened. But he
did die fulfilled and happy. Dummy (

No argument. I was just pointing out that liberty and longevity, at
least in pets, seems to be at cross purposes to each other.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

Billy expounded:

Unnatural perhaps, but house cats do live longer.

Longevity can be greatly extended (to truly unnatural ages) by adding
chromium picolinate to a diet so calorie deficient that the pet becomes
nearly inert, living year after year at the edge of starvation, their
whole system functioning at a minimum rate of merely alive.

It's dangerous to go outside. It's dangerous to have full liberty in the
house. The best thing for a cat or a dog would be to keep always either in
a small box or on a short leash. If quality of life counts for anything,
however, a more interesting diet & opportunities to hunt & exercise are
more important than having an inert animal in a box lasting a long time
thanks to the chromium picolinate.

It has been popularly reported that outdoor cats last 3 years, indoor cats
17 years. These are fake statistics and not based on any actual studies,
but they're popularly repeated by advocates of cat leash laws & by people
who either hate cats coming in their yard from next door or are paranoid
pet owners who want to justify their pet's awful life as a housebound
overweight animal.

The record-holding oldest cats have had access to the outdoors and often
to barns and are permitted hunt. It is rare to hear of a completely indoor
cat that lives to age 20, the majority of cats that age having had access
to the outdoors or even living most of the time outdoors.

You can tweek the stats any number of ways, statistics being as Twain said
"damned lies." If you look at how many cats get run over by cars, you
won't find any indoor cats killed that way. If you look at cats dead of
obesity-related diseases, won't find many outdoor cats on that list. If
you look at cats with all sorts of renal problems, the majority are indoor
cats (thought to be due to the fact that there are NO commercial catfood
preparations that are adequate for a long healthy life -- your choices are
rendering-plant waste in "100% meat" products or more typical blends with
corn, rice, and flour added -- what a cat needs is whole organism and
would frankly have a more balanced diet if all it ate was worms).

A more sustainable statistic would be that outdoor and outdoor-access cats
live eight healthful years on average (twenty at the outside0, and indoor
cats live eight or nine healthful years (fourteen to seventeen at the
outside). The outside ages of outdoor-access cats will more likely be
healthful than for the indoor cat, whose last "extra" years will be
afflicted with chronic illness and a great deal of veterinarian care.

"Averages" are funny things. Looking at the oldest cats exclusively, they
almost all had outdoor access. But averages can look a little less safe
for the outdoor cat because it is less likely to have preventative
veterinarian care (innoculation against the most common feline disease) or
swift emergency care than is the indoor cat, and it is veterinarians
rather than the indoor environment that's responsible for the extra if
miserable years.

Whatever the "average" might really be, or how it's measured, fact
remains, a 100% housebound cat does not necessarily live a longer life. It
is popular folklore that outdoor cats live short lives. The few studies
actually done show that even completely feral cats which never have
veterinary access live up to twenty years (as documented by the Cat Action
Trust in England). Unspayed feral cats outliving spayed indoor cats is the
opposite of popular belief, but there you go.

The shortened life of indoor cats is partially due to boredom resulting in
lethargy resulting in overweight and thereby susceptibility to all manner
of ailments, including diabetes, heart disease, renal failure, dental
disease, and cancer -- so that they make it past age nine, all the way to
age fourteen (on average), only with constant veterinary care & owner
willingness to let the cats carry on with chronic illness. They'd
otherwise have to be put down about age nine, the same time as natural
death occurs in a physically fit cat that had outdoor privileges.

One predicctive measure of how long a cat MIGHT live is its skill as a
hunter. Cats that delight in the hunt (and yes that usually means killing
birds, though for farm cats it'd be rodents) are living a higher quality
of life by their own standard, and so may continue to hunt into their
'teens. The year a cat stops hunting is the year its health begins to
decline.

Perhaps the ideal would be the life of a farm cat, having the best of both
worlds, complete liberty of outdoors or indoors, less threat from
automobile traffic, plenty of opportunities for the hunt.

Emotional states and longevity are a controversial area of study but it's
not hard to accept that a happy active cat has more HEALTHY years than a
bored inactive cat, even IF the latter were to live on & on & on with some
renal problem. Human emotional states as related to their cats are also
interesting. The University of Michigan Stroke Research Facility, looking
at over 4,000 cases, discovered a 40% increased rate of heart attack and
30% increased rate of death by cardiovascular disease in people who never
owned a cat. So get a cat, or die.

-paghat the ratgirl
--
visit my temperate gardening website:
http://www.paghat.com.html
visit my film reviews webiste:
http://www.weirdwildrealm.com

In article ,
(paghat) wrote:

Billy expounded:

Unnatural perhaps, but house cats do live longer.

Hope you don't mind me being on top;-)
.. . .keeping cats indoors is also good for the health and life
expectancy of the cats, and less expensive for the cat owners. The
Humane Society of the United States was quoted in 1992 estimating the
average life expectancy of free roaming pets to be between 3 and 5
years, while indoor cats can commonly reach ages of 17 years or more.
http://www.scvas.org/index.php?page=text&id=keepcats
Of course, this what you would expect from an anti-cat front group like
"Audubon Society".

Then there is . . .
Aside from the obvious dangers of car fan belts and tires, toxic plants,
dogs and cruel people, there are many hidden dangers to cats allowed
outdoors. Life-threatening dangers include:

* Diseases for which we currently do not have vaccines for (Feline
Aids),
or vaccines that are not reliably effective
(Feline Leukemia, Feline Infectious Peritonitis).

* Heartworm. Yes, it is true that a cat can get heartworm, through
mosquito bites. Shorthairs are at higher risk than longhairs.

* Antifreeze. Its sweet taste is irresistible to cats, and a cat who
has walked through a small pool of antifreeze and cleans its paws has
ingested a fatal dose.

* Skin cancer. Light colored kitties (especially white) are at risk
for skin cancer of the ears due to exposure to direct sunlight.

* Hanging/choking. Those neat little cat collars which do not
provide breakaway or stretch releases have killed many a cat.

* Fighting among outdoor kitties not only spreads disease, it can
result in painful abscesses which require medical attention (an
untreated abscess can kill a cat). Unaltered tom cats are prime
candidates for such fighting, not to mention they will impregnate any
and all receptive females they come upon.

* Toxoplasmosis. A single celled organism that cats can ingest while
eating prey that has been exposed. Not only can it kill a cat, it is
contagious to people and can result in severe birth defects to human
babies whose mothers are exposed during pregnancy. Wearing rubber gloves
while handling litter pan duties and gardening is highly recommended for
pregnant women. Finding another home for your cherished pet is NOT
necessary.
http://www.runway.net/b/moonmaid/in-or-out.html

And lastly, there is "The Cat Fanciers' Association" which weasels
around and never gives numbers. They just say that a cat is safer
indoors than outdoors.
http://www.cfainc.org/articles/safer-indoors.html

Longevity can be greatly extended (to truly unnatural ages) by adding

chromium picolinate: recommended for cats with diabetes
http://www.vetinfo4cats.com/cdiabetmed.html
(I used to take it for the same reason but never saw any benefit from
it.)
to a diet so calorie deficient that the pet becomes
nearly inert, living year after year at the edge of starvation, their
whole system functioning at a minimum rate of merely alive.

It's dangerous to go outside. It's dangerous to have full liberty in the
house. The best thing for a cat or a dog would be to keep always either in
a small box or on a short leash. If quality of life counts for anything,
however, a more interesting diet & opportunities to hunt & exercise are
more important than having an inert animal in a box lasting a long time
thanks to the chromium picolinate.

It has been popularly reported that outdoor cats last 3 years, indoor cats
17 years. These are fake statistics and not based on any actual studies,
but they're popularly repeated by advocates of cat leash laws & by people
who either hate cats coming in their yard from next door or are paranoid
pet owners who want to justify their pet's awful life as a housebound
overweight animal.

The record-holding oldest cats have had access to the outdoors and often
to barns and are permitted hunt. It is rare to hear of a completely indoor
cat that lives to age 20, the majority of cats that age having had access
to the outdoors or even living most of the time outdoors.

You can tweek the stats any number of ways, statistics being as Twain said
"damned lies." If you look at how many cats get run over by cars, you
won't find any indoor cats killed that way. If you look at cats dead of
obesity-related diseases, won't find many outdoor cats on that list. If
you look at cats with all sorts of renal problems, the majority are indoor
cats (thought to be due to the fact that there are NO commercial catfood
preparations that are adequate for a long healthy life -- your choices are
rendering-plant waste in "100% meat" products or more typical blends with
corn, rice, and flour added -- what a cat needs is whole organism and
would frankly have a more balanced diet if all it ate was worms).

A more sustainable statistic would be that outdoor and outdoor-access cats
live eight healthful years on average (twenty at the outside0, and indoor
cats live eight or nine healthful years (fourteen to seventeen at the
outside). The outside ages of outdoor-access cats will more likely be
healthful than for the indoor cat, whose last "extra" years will be
afflicted with chronic illness and a great deal of veterinarian care.

"Averages" are funny things. Looking at the oldest cats exclusively, they
almost all had outdoor access. But averages can look a little less safe
for the outdoor cat because it is less likely to have preventative
veterinarian care (innoculation against the most common feline disease) or
swift emergency care than is the indoor cat, and it is veterinarians
rather than the indoor environment that's responsible for the extra if
miserable years.

Whatever the "average" might really be, or how it's measured, fact
remains, a 100% housebound cat does not necessarily live a longer life. It
is popular folklore that outdoor cats live short lives. The few studies
actually done show that even completely feral cats which never have
veterinary access live up to twenty years (as documented by the Cat Action
Trust in England). Unspayed feral cats outliving spayed indoor cats is the
opposite of popular belief, but there you go.

The shortened life of indoor cats is partially due to boredom resulting in
lethargy resulting in overweight and thereby susceptibility to all manner
of ailments, including diabetes, heart disease, renal failure, dental
disease, and cancer -- so that they make it past age nine, all the way to
age fourteen (on average), only with constant veterinary care & owner
willingness to let the cats carry on with chronic illness. They'd
otherwise have to be put down about age nine, the same time as natural
death occurs in a physically fit cat that had outdoor privileges.

One predicctive measure of how long a cat MIGHT live is its skill as a
hunter. Cats that delight in the hunt (and yes that usually means killing
birds, though for farm cats it'd be rodents) are living a higher quality
of life by their own standard, and so may continue to hunt into their
'teens. The year a cat stops hunting is the year its health begins to
decline.

Perhaps the ideal would be the life of a farm cat, having the best of both
worlds, complete liberty of outdoors or indoors, less threat from
automobile traffic, plenty of opportunities for the hunt.

Emotional states and longevity are a controversial area of study but it's
not hard to accept that a happy active cat has more HEALTHY years than a
bored inactive cat, even IF the latter were to live on & on & on with some
renal problem. Human emotional states as related to their cats are also
interesting. The University of Michigan Stroke Research Facility, looking
at over 4,000 cases, discovered a 40% increased rate of heart attack and
30% increased rate of death by cardiovascular disease in people who never
owned a cat. So get a cat, or die.

-paghat the ratgirl
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

(paghat) expounded:

Perhaps the ideal would be the life of a farm cat, having the best of both
worlds, complete liberty of outdoors or indoors, less threat from
automobile traffic, plenty of opportunities for the hunt.

Absolutely. My parents' cats had full run of the barn, outdoors, but
'lived' in the house. Many lived 15+ years, Callie the Alley Cat
lived to 18. Wild Harry, who was basically a friendly feral (he never
got used to the dog, was born in the barn, wouldn't come into the
house at all) died of fighting, he just couldn't give up fisticuffs.
Missy developed diabetes, lived for three years with my parents giving
her two shots a day until dad got too sick to deal with it anymore.
The vet took her and liked her so much she lived out her days in her
office, being well taken care of. There were so many more over the
years, Ying, Yang, Bibby, on and on and on. Must love cats if you
want to fit into our family!
--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
e-mail address is not checked
******************************

In article
,
Billy wrote:

Hope you don't mind me being on top;-)
. . .keeping cats indoors is also good for the health and life
expectancy of the cats, and less expensive for the cat owners. The
Humane Society of the United States was quoted in 1992 estimating the
average life expectancy of free roaming pets to be between 3 and 5
years, while indoor cats can commonly reach ages of 17 years or more.
http://www.scvas.org/index.php?page=text&id=keepcats

This is a bogus stat. Of course if it was about how quick the "humane"
society kills animals then sure, they kill all feral cats that come into
their custody without giving them any chance at all. They kill most of the
rest of the cats while they're at it -- because it's easier, not because
it's necessary.

Despite all the POSSIBILITIES of harm from going outside, fact is cats
with access to the outdoors USUALLY live long and much more fulfilling
lives. You can find baseless stats claiming outdoor cats live less than
eighteen months (not telling you this is for the feral cats in the worst
possible environments and wouldn't even hold true for feral cats in other
conditions).

The few times it's actually been studied such worst-case scenarios never
hold up. Longevity studies are also skewed because unspayed females that
never get pregnant during their lives are at heightened risk of ovarian
cancers, giving rise to the fraudulant statistic that spayed indoor cats
live longest. Fact is a cat that is periodically pregnant has a vastly
reduced cancer risk.

MOST outdoor cats live long healthy lives. Some certainly do get run over
or fall to illnesses nobody bothers to have treated. If one measured only
the quality of life, and pretended having nothing much to do no place to
go is good quality, you'd still have to STOP measuring when they reached
the point of diabetes or renal disease and live miserably thereafter on
borrowed time if they get the expensive care.

The Humane Society has passed their baseless stats from ear to ear for a
lot of years. Sometimes they say eighteen years for indoor cats,
sometoimes seventeen, sometimes fourteen. They always say three years but
sometimes say this is for any outdoor cat, though when they first started
spreading these bogus stats twenty years ago it was only for feral cats --
time rather than studies transmute these urban folklore assertions.

The Humane Society also alleges that two out of three veterinarians
recommend never letting a cat outdoors. That seems likely a bogus stat too
since the Society reveals no source for it, but if it were true, my
question is why, if you could quadruple a cat's lifespan as they preend,
would 33% of veterinarians think it was okay to go outside? Maybe they're
the 33% who bothered to check if the Humane Society is blowing smoke?

The Humane Society's primary task in America is killing and disposing of
animals. They have done ZERO research and report on ZERO research on
longevity and health issues of any cats at all. The hsus.org website has a
page about never letting cats outdoors which they take entirely from a
pamphlet distributed by the Center for Disease Control. If the Humane
Society had any factual data they wouldn't restrict themselves to copying
pamphlets trumped up by other agencies. Both the "alternative"

PETA and the HSUS kill upwards to 90% of the animals that come into their
custody WITHOUT REGARD FOR ADOPTABILITY. To do otherwise would require a
major shift in priorities away from politics and toward animal health and
welfare. PETA would rather be a disruptive group of nutters, and HSUS
would rather spend the money on their non-research propoganda machine for
neutering and not letting cats or dogs outside ever. The chances of
finding a lost pet are 3%. The direct cause of this horrible statistic is
the fact that leading organizations send them straight to slaughter (see
Nathan Wingrove's book REDEMPTION for incredible details).

These organizations don't care about the truth because they have instead
their agendas. It should be up to pet owners to assess their particular
situations and with REAL knowledge decide whether they're willing to risk
or attempt to mitigate death by captivity through obesity and renal
failure, or death by automobile of a much healthier animal that exercises
and hunts. It can be argued either way. But not when fraudulant stats
phony up the odds to make it look like their agenda provides the only
reasonable answer. PETA and HSUS have no desire to stop killing animals
because it is upon this alleged "necessity" they base their otherwise
varied agendas with momentums that do not permit actual educative process
but only propogandizing.

Here's a nice little interview with Wingrove as an introduction to realilty:
http://www.consumerfreedom.com/artic...fm/article/183

Cat Fanciers' Association's reasoning for keeping a cat indoors includes
the recommendation that you have only a cat that has NEVER BEEN outdoors
-- not even leash-trained or during supervised play, as once they know
what it's like out there they'll never be happy indoors. It has at least a
passing chance of not being unhappy about the situation if outside is just
an image through the window never explored. C.F.A. to promote this nutso
idea of NEVER NEVER NEVER set paw past the door must perforce refuse to
consider the negative health impact on cats and don't even warn about the
obesity and disease that results from trapping cats indoors, and the more
rapid decline of cats that cannot hunt. Their answer to all potential
problems is only "be sure to love your cat."

Some facts left out of agendized and phony stats: Cats trapped indoors are
more apt to be destructive, apt to overeat, apt to get carried away in
"stalking" behavior harming children or other pets, and unless trapped
with other cats become so dependent on owners that they're totally
stressed out when alone, resulting in over-grooming to the point of
inducing baldness, or not grooming at all and getting pretty rank. Stress
also causes cats to stop using literbox, bouts of excess timidity or
outbursts of aggression, hiding, and destroying objects with claws or
teeth or urine, and to heighten these bad behaviors when their are
visitors or changes in the environment as slight as rearranging the
furniture. And when they inevitably do get out by accident, they have no
survival skills and are much more apt to be run over, lost, or torn to
pieces by a dog.

Cats that have the liberty of a catdoor to the outer world are not as apt
to have any of these behavioral problems, remain healthier for longer
periods because well exercised and not overeating, have improved survival
skills, clear mice out of gardens while increasing the quality of their
diet (cats on 100% manufactured diets get all sorts of renal problems when
older, such as do not afflict hunters).

The negative side is well known because well-advertised by professional
animal killers posing as animal welfare agencies or groups. The REAL thing
to consider is this: How to mitigate dangers for cats that go outdoors; or
conversely, how to mitigate the health damage that appears to be
inescapable for indoor cats.

The latter would involve way better control over what cats eat and to
provide whole organisms from time to time (like fresh frozen mice
available in many pet stores). Unfortunately we're a fat culture and it
extends to our animals; we can't control what we ourselves eat and we
won't stop giving the pets leavings from the human's bacon trough. The
mitigation for outdoor cat safety turns out to be easier than for indoor
cats for most humans who are psychologically incapable of controling any
living thing's diet properly and would NEVER let their cat have a thawed
out and soon quite bloody mouse.

Mitagation for outdoor behavior is also difficult since we can't follow
them around, but neutering males does restrict their territory, whereas
unneutered they wander great distances and yowl to the annoyance of
neighbors and get in fights. Outdoor females should be spayed or they will
get pregnant. Spaying/neutering is another area that is more complex than
agendized organizations make it, but it does mitigate the risks involved
with outdoor access. Permitting outdoor access only by day is also
mitigates risk, as cats won't be frozen in car headlights or attacked by
nocturnal animals. Outdoor cats must also even more rigorously be properly
vaccinated. And they must be treated for fleas on a regular basis and
checked for possibility of wounds or worms. And they should have
under-the-skin ID microchip. Too damned bad dumbass animal-killer
organizations won't as quickly list mitigating factors -- not wanting to
admit house-bound cats require them, not wanting to admit outdoor cats can
ever be safe.

There are no absolutes in this. Everyone who says it MUST be this or that
is a chump. Personally if I could never let a cat outdoors for whatever
reason that would be for me an indication that I oughtn't have one. Anyone
who can't afford MASSIVELY EXPENSIVE veterinarian bills for the life-long
indoor cat's later years better start saving up now, or take THAT as
evidence they'd just better go without.

-paghat the ratgirl
--
visit my temperate gardening website:
http://www.paghat.com.html
visit my film reviews webiste:
http://www.weirdwildrealm.com

Billy wrote in

ct.net.au:

. . .keeping cats indoors is also good for the health and
life expectancy of the cats, and less expensive for the cat
owners. The Humane Society of the United States was quoted
in 1992 estimating the average life expectancy of free
roaming pets to be between 3 and 5 years, while indoor cats
can commonly reach ages of 17 years or more.

Bzzzzt! bullshit alert! HSUS is a PETA front! they are NOT the
American Humane Society & they certainly DO have an anti-pet
agenda.

Then there is . . .
Aside from the obvious dangers of car fan belts and tires,
toxic plants, dogs and cruel people, there are many hidden
dangers to cats allowed outdoors. Life-threatening dangers
include:

* Diseases for which we currently do not have vaccines
for (Feline
Aids),
or vaccines that are not reliably effective
(Feline Leukemia, Feline Infectious Peritonitis).

indoor cats can also contract these diseases.

* Heartworm. Yes, it is true that a cat can get
heartworm, through
mosquito bites. Shorthairs are at higher risk than
longhairs.

my barn cats are on heartworm preventative, same as my dogs.

* Antifreeze. Its sweet taste is irresistible to cats,
and a cat who
has walked through a small pool of antifreeze and cleans
its paws has ingested a fatal dose.

this is also a threat to dogs. a dog who picks up a rag you
wiped your hands on after changing the antifreeze has also
ingested a fatal dose.

* Skin cancer. Light colored kitties (especially white)
are at risk
for skin cancer of the ears due to exposure to direct
sunlight.

same with dogs. i don't see too many people advocating that
Fido never set foot outdoors.

* Hanging/choking. Those neat little cat collars which
do not
provide breakaway or stretch releases have killed many a
cat.

cats shouldn't wear collars, but if they need to (my deaf cat
has one that says he's deaf & has my phone number) only
breakaway collars should be used. and cats can hang themselves
easier indoors than outdoors.

* Fighting among outdoor kitties not only spreads
disease, it can
result in painful abscesses which require medical attention
(an untreated abscess can kill a cat). Unaltered tom cats
are prime candidates for such fighting, not to mention they
will impregnate any and all receptive females they come
upon.

any cat that is not a breeding cat should be neutered by 6
months. they make better pets *and* better mousers.

* Toxoplasmosis. A single celled organism that cats can
ingest while
eating prey that has been exposed. Not only can it kill a
cat, it is contagious to people and can result in severe
birth defects to human babies whose mothers are exposed
during pregnancy. Wearing rubber gloves while handling
litter pan duties and gardening is highly recommended for
pregnant women. Finding another home for your cherished pet
is NOT necessary.

pregnant women are more likely to contract toxoplasmosis from
handling raw meat than from Tabby.

And lastly, there is "The Cat Fanciers' Association" which
weasels around and never gives numbers. They just say that
a cat is safer indoors than outdoors.
http://www.cfainc.org/articles/safer-indoors.html

but the CFA also promotes building your cats outdoor play
areas (at least in the magazine). hmmm.
lee
--
Last night while sitting in my chair
I pinged a host that wasn't there
It wasn't there again today
The host resolved to NSA.

In article , Jangchub
wrote:

On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 10:10:56 -0700,
(paghat) wrote:

The record-holding oldest cats have had access to the outdoors and often
to barns and are permitted hunt. It is rare to hear of a completely indoor
cat that lives to age 20, the majority of cats that age having had access
to the outdoors or even living most of the time outdoors.


What happens to a cat if the moron next door puts out blue block
poison for rats and the sick rat gets caught alive and eaten by the
cat and the cat dies and the owner never knows what happened to the
cat and wonders forever? What then?

What happens if your house catches fire. What happens if your cat falls in
the toilet, the lid plops down, and though you manage to resuscitate it
with mouth to mouth, the fact that you save water by rarely flushing the
toilet means the cat got a terrible infection and died, and you had to
have your lips amputated. Hey, it's not scientifically impossible, so
start worryin!

Fact is the house burning down is a MUCH greater risk to the cat's
longevity than dying from poisons aimed at dehydrating animals that cannot
vomit, left out where kids or dogs or cats can get them. If you were
thinking rationally about it the poison threat is from eating carrion --
of any animal that has been poisoned.

Life is threatening. It doesn't get all that safer just because someone
seals their a cat up in a nice soft satin-lined coffin. If unlikely events
are your worry, why restrict them to what's outside? I had a ferret not
only open a cabinet I had no idea his little hands could open, but he
managed to spread soap all over the floor, then ran through it sliding and
having fun. Just luck he didn't open something poisonous. He was a house
ferret but eventually went to another owner who used him in the San Juans
as a rabbit hunter -- his quality of life rose by a lot with access to the
great outdoors at least now and then.

Why do you care so much about this? What's wrong, bad mood today?

I provided lots of notes on two sides of an issue with extra focus on the
side which people left off, but concluded that it was a case by case thing
and without ALL the facts a pet owner would inevitably make bad decisions.

The propoganda machine has to be overcome with big doses of reality and
only then can people can assess their situations and make rational choices
for themselves and their companion animals. If you believe only the
agendized slant & popular misinformation that only inside is safe, you
can't make an intelligent decision. And that looks cranky only to someone
who only wants to hear the "only inside is safe" arguments and gets
threatened or peevish when that turns out not to fit well with the entire
truth.

MOST people who never let their cats outside are killing them slowly and
will have them suffering of terrible diseases their last few years. That
doesn't necessarily mean they should let them outside now and then, but if
that's really not safe, then perhaps just shouldn't own a cat at all, if a
risk-free life is one's criteria.

In our neighborhood cats run free, though it's not legal. As my garden
attracts more birds than anyones, I'm visited by cats from a half-dozen
houses, and now and then a bird gets wasted but surprisingly few (no
super-hunters among these spoiled cats). Neighbor cats annoy me sometimes,
but so did the racoon that tore up my little pond, & I'm not going to lock
up all the racoons and the neighbors' cats for it. One cat's owner has a
hyperactive scottish terrier, so the cat has moved into our carport and is
there more than its home. It's a quiet suburban st reet of houses and I've
never seen a cat dead at the side of any street around here (and I walk
our dog three times a day so I'd see 'em). HAVE seen a few squirrels
flattened though. Maybe we should keep 'em in the house.

-paggers
--
visit my temperate gardening website:
http://www.paghat.com.html
visit my film reviews webiste:
http://www.weirdwildrealm.com

In article ,
enigma wrote:

Billy wrote in

ct.net.au:

. . .keeping cats indoors is also good for the health and
life expectancy of the cats, and less expensive for the cat
owners. The Humane Society of the United States was quoted
in 1992 estimating the average life expectancy of free
roaming pets to be between 3 and 5 years, while indoor cats
can commonly reach ages of 17 years or more.

Bzzzzt! bullshit alert! HSUS is a PETA front! they are NOT the
American Humane Society & they certainly DO have an anti-pet
agenda.

Then there is . . .
Aside from the obvious dangers of car fan belts and tires,
toxic plants, dogs and cruel people, there are many hidden
dangers to cats allowed outdoors. Life-threatening dangers
include:

* Diseases for which we currently do not have vaccines
for (Feline
Aids),
or vaccines that are not reliably effective
(Feline Leukemia, Feline Infectious Peritonitis).

indoor cats can also contract these diseases.

* Heartworm. Yes, it is true that a cat can get
heartworm, through
mosquito bites. Shorthairs are at higher risk than
longhairs.

my barn cats are on heartworm preventative, same as my dogs.

* Antifreeze. Its sweet taste is irresistible to cats,
and a cat who
has walked through a small pool of antifreeze and cleans
its paws has ingested a fatal dose.

this is also a threat to dogs. a dog who picks up a rag you
wiped your hands on after changing the antifreeze has also
ingested a fatal dose.

* Skin cancer. Light colored kitties (especially white)
are at risk
for skin cancer of the ears due to exposure to direct
sunlight.

same with dogs. i don't see too many people advocating that
Fido never set foot outdoors.

* Hanging/choking. Those neat little cat collars which
do not
provide breakaway or stretch releases have killed many a
cat.

cats shouldn't wear collars, but if they need to (my deaf cat
has one that says he's deaf & has my phone number) only
breakaway collars should be used. and cats can hang themselves
easier indoors than outdoors.

* Fighting among outdoor kitties not only spreads
disease, it can
result in painful abscesses which require medical attention
(an untreated abscess can kill a cat). Unaltered tom cats
are prime candidates for such fighting, not to mention they
will impregnate any and all receptive females they come
upon.

any cat that is not a breeding cat should be neutered by 6
months. they make better pets *and* better mousers.

* Toxoplasmosis. A single celled organism that cats can
ingest while
eating prey that has been exposed. Not only can it kill a
cat, it is contagious to people and can result in severe
birth defects to human babies whose mothers are exposed
during pregnancy. Wearing rubber gloves while handling
litter pan duties and gardening is highly recommended for
pregnant women. Finding another home for your cherished pet
is NOT necessary.

pregnant women are more likely to contract toxoplasmosis from
handling raw meat than from Tabby.

And lastly, there is "The Cat Fanciers' Association" which
weasels around and never gives numbers. They just say that
a cat is safer indoors than outdoors.
http://www.cfainc.org/articles/safer-indoors.html

but the CFA also promotes building your cats outdoor play
areas (at least in the magazine). hmmm.
lee

All that and not one citation? You workin' on the cheap.
Whachew tryin' to say girl? Go on an say it. I can take it like a man,
But if you make me cry, I'll get you in trouble. I'll tell Charlie;-)
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

In article , Charlie wrote:

Our cat has the run of the place, indoors and out, as he chooses,
24/7. He is a highly skilled hunter. Up until five years ago, the
neighborhood was overrun with rabbits, and mice and the ocassional rat
from the storm sewer were annual autumn problems. The damned things
played hell with any plantings and the garden. Six years ago we
inherited Stan from younger son. Stan grew up in the country, on a
heavily traveled road and survived there long enough to become really
roadwise.

In the six years since he moved to town, he has nearly eliminated the
neighborhood rabbits and we haven't had any mice in the house since.
He is never sick, only goes to the vet once a year for shots, and I
prophylactically worm him every three months because of his hunting and
the tendency of mice and rabbits to carry various intestinal parasites.

His best night of hunting, was nine young rabbits he brought to us on
the patio over a four hour period. One night he brought two in the
house and let them loose in the bedroom and all hell broke loose when
the Dane caught wind of them in her space.

Yeah, he does get the occasional songbird and that really ****es me off
at him, but that is what cats do. His benefits, on rodent control and
the enjoyment he provides, outweigh that thing.

At any rate, that is the life a cat needs, and gets around here. If he
does become smooshed, that is ok too, as he is having a great life,
best of both worlds for him.

Charlie

Some people would use that as a story proving cats should be locked up.
They kill everything. That's one hummer of a hunter though; most cats
cannot even catch a half-grown rat which is already too big & smart for
most cats, which have to hunt eight-week-old rats or deermice and field
mice. The cat that can catch rabbits is a tough *******.

-paghat the ratgirl
--
visit my temperate gardening website:
http://www.paghat.com.html
visit my film reviews webiste:
http://www.weirdwildrealm.com

* Toxoplasmosis. A single celled organism that cats can
ingest while
eating prey that has been exposed. Not only can it kill a
cat, it is contagious to people and can result in severe
birth defects to human babies whose mothers are exposed
during pregnancy. Wearing rubber gloves while handling
litter pan duties and gardening is highly recommended for
pregnant women. Finding another home for your cherished pet
is NOT necessary.

pregnant women are more likely to contract toxoplasmosis from
handling raw meat than from Tabby.

Pregnant women should not clean cat boxes due to toxoplasmosis risk. But
if the cat poops outside pregger-gal is safer.

-paghat the ratgirl
--
visit my temperate gardening website:
http://www.paghat.com.html
visit my film reviews webiste:
http://www.weirdwildrealm.com

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 10:10:56 -0700,
(paghat) wrote:

Billy expounded:

Unnatural perhaps, but house cats do live longer.

snip

The shortened life of indoor cats is partially due to boredom resulting in
lethargy resulting in overweight and thereby susceptibility to all manner
of ailments, including diabetes, heart disease, renal failure, dental
disease, and cancer -- so that they make it past age nine, all the way to
age fourteen (on average), only with constant veterinary care & owner
willingness to let the cats carry on with chronic illness. They'd
otherwise have to be put down about age nine, the same time as natural
death occurs in a physically fit cat that had outdoor privileges.

One predicctive measure of how long a cat MIGHT live is its skill as a
hunter. Cats that delight in the hunt (and yes that usually means killing
birds, though for farm cats it'd be rodents) are living a higher quality
of life by their own standard, and so may continue to hunt into their
'teens. The year a cat stops hunting is the year its health begins to
decline.

Yep. Our cat has the run of the place, indoors and out, as he chooses,
24/7. He is a highly skilled hunter. Up until five years ago, the
neighborhood was overrun with rabbits, and mice and the ocassional rat
from the storm sewer were annual autumn problems. The damned things
played hell with any plantings and the garden. Six years ago we
inherited Stan from younger son. Stan grew up in the country, on a
heavily traveled road and survived there long enough to become really
roadwise.

In the six years since he moved to town, he has nearly eliminated the
neighborhood rabbits and we haven't had any mice in the house since.
He is never sick, only goes to the vet once a year for shots, and I
prophylactically worm him every three months because of his hunting and
the tendency of mice and rabbits to carry various intestinal parasites.

His best night of hunting, was nine young rabbits he brought to us on
the patio over a four hour period. One night he brought two in the
house and let them loose in the bedroom and all hell broke loose when
the Dane caught wind of them in her space.

Any that escape him and become to large for him to get, become
pelletized if they are in our yard.

Yeah, he does get the occasional songbird and that really ****es me off
at him, but that is what cats do. His benefits, on rodent control and
the enjoyment he provides, outweigh that thing.

At any rate, that is the life a cat needs, and gets around here. If he
does become smooshed, that is ok too, as he is having a great life,
best of both worlds for him.

Charlie

So much for having you et lee straight, sheesh. Gettin' kinda lonely out
here. I've got to geet zee leetel gray cells working.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

Billy wrote in

ct.net.au:


All that and not one citation? You workin' on the cheap.

you want cites for free?!
on which? that HSUS is a PETA front? or the sunburn,
antifreeze & heartworm issues? or the toxoplasmosis?

Whachew tryin' to say girl? Go on an say it. I can take it
like a man, But if you make me cry, I'll get you in
trouble. I'll tell Charlie;-)

aaaah! not Charlie! i'll be good!
no, i think cats should be indoor outdoor creatures
(depending on where one lives, however), but i also think they
should be given more thought & care than they usually seem to
receive. in many places cats are still seen as a "disposable"
pet. there's lots of them, so why spend money on care? it's a
human mindset that i despise... but one that could be overcome
with education. after all, it wasn't so long ago that dogs
were disposable pets as well, & now people are asking for (&
apparently getting) hundreds of dollars for mutts (call it a
'designer breed')

i have a rooster with a broken leg. normally such a creature
would be soup, but i like this guy. he's got a pleasant
personality. so, he's not only not soup, he has a cast on his
leg & he's staying in my basement...
lee soft touch for critters
--
Last night while sitting in my chair
I pinged a host that wasn't there
It wasn't there again today
The host resolved to NSA.

In article ,
(paghat) wrote:

In article
,
Billy wrote:

Hope you don't mind me being on top;-)
. . .keeping cats indoors is also good for the health and life
expectancy of the cats, and less expensive for the cat owners. The
Humane Society of the United States was quoted in 1992 estimating the
average life expectancy of free roaming pets to be between 3 and 5
years, while indoor cats can commonly reach ages of 17 years or more.
http://www.scvas.org/index.php?page=text&id=keepcats

This is a bogus stat. Of course if it was about how quick the "humane"
society kills animals then sure, they kill all feral cats that come into
their custody without giving them any chance at all. They kill most of the
rest of the cats while they're at it -- because it's easier, not because
it's necessary.

Despite all the POSSIBILITIES of harm from going outside, fact is cats
with access to the outdoors USUALLY live long and much more fulfilling
lives. You can find baseless stats claiming outdoor cats live less than
eighteen months (not telling you this is for the feral cats in the worst
possible environments and wouldn't even hold true for feral cats in other
conditions).

The few times it's actually been studied such worst-case scenarios never
hold up. Longevity studies are also skewed because unspayed females that
never get pregnant during their lives are at heightened risk of ovarian
cancers, giving rise to the fraudulant statistic that spayed indoor cats
live longest. Fact is a cat that is periodically pregnant has a vastly
reduced cancer risk.

MOST outdoor cats live long healthy lives. Some certainly do get run over
or fall to illnesses nobody bothers to have treated. If one measured only
the quality of life, and pretended having nothing much to do no place to
go is good quality, you'd still have to STOP measuring when they reached
the point of diabetes or renal disease and live miserably thereafter on
borrowed time if they get the expensive care.

The Humane Society has passed their baseless stats from ear to ear for a
lot of years. Sometimes they say eighteen years for indoor cats,
sometoimes seventeen, sometimes fourteen. They always say three years but
sometimes say this is for any outdoor cat, though when they first started
spreading these bogus stats twenty years ago it was only for feral cats --
time rather than studies transmute these urban folklore assertions.

The Humane Society also alleges that two out of three veterinarians
recommend never letting a cat outdoors. That seems likely a bogus stat too
since the Society reveals no source for it, but if it were true, my
question is why, if you could quadruple a cat's lifespan as they preend,
would 33% of veterinarians think it was okay to go outside? Maybe they're
the 33% who bothered to check if the Humane Society is blowing smoke?

The Humane Society's primary task in America is killing and disposing of
animals. They have done ZERO research and report on ZERO research on
longevity and health issues of any cats at all. The hsus.org website has a
page about never letting cats outdoors which they take entirely from a
pamphlet distributed by the Center for Disease Control. If the Humane
Society had any factual data they wouldn't restrict themselves to copying
pamphlets trumped up by other agencies. Both the "alternative"

PETA and the HSUS kill upwards to 90% of the animals that come into their
custody WITHOUT REGARD FOR ADOPTABILITY. To do otherwise would require a
major shift in priorities away from politics and toward animal health and
welfare. PETA would rather be a disruptive group of nutters, and HSUS
would rather spend the money on their non-research propoganda machine for
neutering and not letting cats or dogs outside ever. The chances of
finding a lost pet are 3%. The direct cause of this horrible statistic is
the fact that leading organizations send them straight to slaughter (see
Nathan Wingrove's book REDEMPTION for incredible details).

These organizations don't care about the truth because they have instead
their agendas. It should be up to pet owners to assess their particular
situations and with REAL knowledge decide whether they're willing to risk
or attempt to mitigate death by captivity through obesity and renal
failure, or death by automobile of a much healthier animal that exercises
and hunts. It can be argued either way. But not when fraudulant stats
phony up the odds to make it look like their agenda provides the only
reasonable answer. PETA and HSUS have no desire to stop killing animals
because it is upon this alleged "necessity" they base their otherwise
varied agendas with momentums that do not permit actual educative process
but only propogandizing.

Here's a nice little interview with Wingrove as an introduction to realilty:
http://www.consumerfreedom.com/artic...fm/article/183

Cat Fanciers' Association's reasoning for keeping a cat indoors includes
the recommendation that you have only a cat that has NEVER BEEN outdoors
-- not even leash-trained or during supervised play, as once they know
what it's like out there they'll never be happy indoors. It has at least a
passing chance of not being unhappy about the situation if outside is just
an image through the window never explored. C.F.A. to promote this nutso
idea of NEVER NEVER NEVER set paw past the door must perforce refuse to
consider the negative health impact on cats and don't even warn about the
obesity and disease that results from trapping cats indoors, and the more
rapid decline of cats that cannot hunt. Their answer to all potential
problems is only "be sure to love your cat."

Some facts left out of agendized and phony stats: Cats trapped indoors are
more apt to be destructive, apt to overeat, apt to get carried away in
"stalking" behavior harming children or other pets, and unless trapped
with other cats become so dependent on owners that they're totally
stressed out when alone, resulting in over-grooming to the point of
inducing baldness, or not grooming at all and getting pretty rank. Stress
also causes cats to stop using literbox, bouts of excess timidity or
outbursts of aggression, hiding, and destroying objects with claws or
teeth or urine, and to heighten these bad behaviors when their are
visitors or changes in the environment as slight as rearranging the
furniture. And when they inevitably do get out by accident, they have no
survival skills and are much more apt to be run over, lost, or torn to
pieces by a dog.

Cats that have the liberty of a catdoor to the outer world are not as apt
to have any of these behavioral problems, remain healthier for longer
periods because well exercised and not overeating, have improved survival
skills, clear mice out of gardens while increasing the quality of their
diet (cats on 100% manufactured diets get all sorts of renal problems when
older, such as do not afflict hunters).

The negative side is well known because well-advertised by professional
animal killers posing as animal welfare agencies or groups. The REAL thing
to consider is this: How to mitigate dangers for cats that go outdoors; or
conversely, how to mitigate the health damage that appears to be
inescapable for indoor cats.

The latter would involve way better control over what cats eat and to
provide whole organisms from time to time (like fresh frozen mice
available in many pet stores). Unfortunately we're a fat culture and it
extends to our animals; we can't control what we ourselves eat and we
won't stop giving the pets leavings from the human's bacon trough. The
mitigation for outdoor cat safety turns out to be easier than for indoor
cats for most humans who are psychologically incapable of controling any
living thing's diet properly and would NEVER let their cat have a thawed
out and soon quite bloody mouse.

Mitagation for outdoor behavior is also difficult since we can't follow
them around, but neutering males does restrict their territory, whereas
unneutered they wander great distances and yowl to the annoyance of
neighbors and get in fights. Outdoor females should be spayed or they will
get pregnant. Spaying/neutering is another area that is more complex than
agendized organizations make it, but it does mitigate the risks involved
with outdoor access. Permitting outdoor access only by day is also
mitigates risk, as cats won't be frozen in car headlights or attacked by
nocturnal animals. Outdoor cats must also even more rigorously be properly
vaccinated. And they must be treated for fleas on a regular basis and
checked for possibility of wounds or worms. And they should have
under-the-skin ID microchip. Too damned bad dumbass animal-killer
organizations won't as quickly list mitigating factors -- not wanting to
admit house-bound cats require them, not wanting to admit outdoor cats can
ever be safe.

There are no absolutes in this. Everyone who says it MUST be this or that
is a chump. Personally if I could never let a cat outdoors for whatever
reason that would be for me an indication that I oughtn't have one. Anyone
who can't afford MASSIVELY EXPENSIVE veterinarian bills for the life-long
indoor cat's later years better start saving up now, or take THAT as
evidence they'd just better go without.

-paghat the ratgirl

Thanks for the citation. I collect them.
Think I'll go have a nice glass of chamomile tea to settle my nerves.
Oh, we have five cats, and they never tell me where they are going;-)
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 16:57:56 -0700, Billy wrote:

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 10:10:56 -0700,
(paghat) wrote:

Billy expounded:

Unnatural perhaps, but house cats do live longer.

snip

The shortened life of indoor cats is partially due to boredom resulting in
lethargy resulting in overweight and thereby susceptibility to all manner
of ailments, including diabetes, heart disease, renal failure, dental
disease, and cancer -- so that they make it past age nine, all the way to
age fourteen (on average), only with constant veterinary care & owner
willingness to let the cats carry on with chronic illness. They'd
otherwise have to be put down about age nine, the same time as natural
death occurs in a physically fit cat that had outdoor privileges.

One predicctive measure of how long a cat MIGHT live is its skill as a
hunter. Cats that delight in the hunt (and yes that usually means killing
birds, though for farm cats it'd be rodents) are living a higher quality
of life by their own standard, and so may continue to hunt into their
'teens. The year a cat stops hunting is the year its health begins to
decline.

Yep. Our cat has the run of the place, indoors and out, as he chooses,
24/7. He is a highly skilled hunter. Up until five years ago, the
neighborhood was overrun with rabbits, and mice and the ocassional rat
from the storm sewer were annual autumn problems. The damned things
played hell with any plantings and the garden. Six years ago we
inherited Stan from younger son. Stan grew up in the country, on a
heavily traveled road and survived there long enough to become really
roadwise.

In the six years since he moved to town, he has nearly eliminated the
neighborhood rabbits and we haven't had any mice in the house since.
He is never sick, only goes to the vet once a year for shots, and I
prophylactically worm him every three months because of his hunting and
the tendency of mice and rabbits to carry various intestinal parasites.

His best night of hunting, was nine young rabbits he brought to us on
the patio over a four hour period. One night he brought two in the
house and let them loose in the bedroom and all hell broke loose when
the Dane caught wind of them in her space.

Any that escape him and become to large for him to get, become
pelletized if they are in our yard.

Yeah, he does get the occasional songbird and that really ****es me off
at him, but that is what cats do. His benefits, on rodent control and
the enjoyment he provides, outweigh that thing.

At any rate, that is the life a cat needs, and gets around here. If he
does become smooshed, that is ok too, as he is having a great life,
best of both worlds for him.

Charlie

So much for having you et lee straight, sheesh. Gettin' kinda lonely out
here. I've got to geet zee leetel gray cells working.

Ahhhhh......this is once again becoming the rec.gardens I have grown to
love.

You ever seen catfights? Most often there is a whole bunch of
gawdawful caterwauling, a brief contact and then often one of the cats
runs like hell. You better get to runnin', OldTom! ;-)

Not on this issue, my old friend, shall you find me in agreement with
you, but perhaps you have a point, in that we cage up and restrict
those that we love and care for....for their own good of course.

Now, bein's that I am so fond of you (and I am sure that Lovey is as
well) perhaps we should keep you in the house in order that you may
live a long life and not get smooshed, or some worse fate befall ye in
the great outdoors......we'll just keep youse locked up for our own
personal feelings and fears? ;-)

Ok, but if'n you pick up the scissors, I'm out of here.

I might also point out that I NEVER advocated nothin'. I simply
reported that some people said a house cat had a longer life and I gave
citations to support the fact that it wasn't my idea but that of people
of supposed authority. Sheesh.

Oh, speaking of authorities. Ya know this 'smorning, while I was
rummaging about for some information on re-potting for Akumos, every
knuckle head expert recommended fertilizing seedlings. Aint't that
sumthin? Wow, what a bunch of . . . Charlie, why you gettin' that
strange look? Uh-huh. Maybe I should come back later, ciiiao.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/