I'd like to think folks would consider consequences beyond legal.

Who knows, tho. Have someone do the survey and let us know.

Suzy O

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Rod & Betty Jo" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter"
I agree. It's the peoples' fault. But, we are a backward society, so the
people are not taken to the pound, held for a period of time, and then
killed. Someday, maybe.


Did I get this right?....The damn dog barks but it is the owners fault
and
not the fault of the actual dog doing the barking?.....and with a hopeful
spirit you someday hope that people with whom you presumably simply don't
approve of will get killed simply on your whim? So may we presume that
you
value trees and dogs more than you actually value humans? I guess people
pick their own values, too bad you picked yours.....Rod


Actually, I think killing the dog is the way to go, because of the misery
it
may cause the owner and its family. But, try and get people to agree with
THAT idea. Not easy. As far as "people I don't approve of", the word "you"
(meaning me) doesn't fit. ***NOBODY*** approves of humans of allow their
dogs to bark endlessly. Yes, that's an absolute statement, and is
inarguably
true, all the time, everywhere. Period.

Now, if you have some spare time, conduct a survey. I already know the
results, but you'll want to find out for yourself. Ask 100 people "If, for
one day, you could pick one unbelievably obnoxious neighbor, take a rifle
and shoot that person dead, and know that there would be no legal
consequences, would you do it?" I promise you that the results would shock
you. If you asked the question face to face, at least half would respond
"yes". If you conducted it anonymously, on paper, I think more like 80%
would say "yes".

How 'bout noisy activities like lawn mowing, using the electric hedge
trimmer, etc. when you know the inconsiderate a-holes are sleeping? Then
when they freak out, tell them that's exactly how you feel when their dog
goes on a bark-a-thon. Way more fun than killing the dog -- the idjit
neighbors would probably just get another that might bark even more.

Suzy O

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Bourne Identity" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:02:10 GMT, "Doug Kanter"

opined:


"Rod & Betty Jo" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter"
I agree. It's the peoples' fault. But, we are a backward society, so
the
people are not taken to the pound, held for a period of time, and then
killed. Someday, maybe.


Did I get this right?....The damn dog barks but it is the owners fault
and
not the fault of the actual dog doing the barking?.....and with a
hopeful
spirit you someday hope that people with whom you presumably simply
don't
approve of will get killed simply on your whim? So may we presume that
you
value trees and dogs more than you actually value humans? I guess
people
pick their own values, too bad you picked yours.....Rod


Actually, I think killing the dog is the way to go, because of the misery
it
may cause the owner and its family. But, try and get people to agree with
THAT idea. Not easy. As far as "people I don't approve of", the word
"you"
(meaning me) doesn't fit. ***NOBODY*** approves of humans of allow their
dogs to bark endlessly. Yes, that's an absolute statement, and is
inarguably
true, all the time, everywhere. Period.

Now, if you have some spare time, conduct a survey. I already know the
results, but you'll want to find out for yourself. Ask 100 people "If,
for
one day, you could pick one unbelievably obnoxious neighbor, take a rifle
and shoot that person dead, and know that there would be no legal
consequences, would you do it?" I promise you that the results would
shock
you. If you asked the question face to face, at least half would respond
"yes". If you conducted it anonymously, on paper, I think more like 80%
would say "yes".


For the record, my answer would be, unquestionably NO. I am gleefully
among the
20%.

How about a potato in the dog owner's exhaust pipe?

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Rod & Betty Jo" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

Well at least 80% of the people that know me wish
I'd take a dirt nap.

HTH


And I'm sure for reasonably just causeg....however most of us do not
have you for a neighbor so push comes to shove we'd not wish to kill
someone else on such trivial grounds....Rod


Inspect the header on the message you just responded to. You've been
trolled
by an impostor, young man.



How can you tell? I'm not playing, I really don't know.

Suzy O

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Vox Humana" wrote in message
...

"Rod & Betty Jo" wrote in message
...

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
Well done.

Since I was simply addressing a blanket and rather ignorant statement "
It
is never the animal's fault. Never. It is always the fault of the
people who leave animals out to bark incessantly" .......The statement
had
no qualifier for time, duration or circumstance.....one could surmise a
barking dog for 10 minutes as easily as 10 hours (both can be rather
irritating)....as it is dogs bark...its what they do...and just because
a
dog barks the owner does not inherently deserve the subsequently
proffered
penalties.

I think assigning "fault" to a dog for barking is at best pointless.
Under
the right circumstances a dog will bark. If your only point is to place
blame and not come to a resolution, then blaming a dog for baking would
meet
your goal. On the other hand, if you goal is to resolve the noise
problem,
then the only rational conclusion is to find fault with the owner for not
managing the problem. A barking dog will seldom, if ever, take steps to
make the neighborhood quite. The dog has other goals. Gun owner will
quickly point out that guns don't kill people, people kill people.
Blaming
a gun for making noise or killing people is exactly the same as blaming a
dog for barking. We could argue into eternity about whether guns kill
people and not change the fact that tens of thousands of people are
killed
by guns each year, just as you could blame a dog for barking and not make
things even a tiny bit quieter.



Please post the number for the telephone that rings closest to your bed.
We'll wake YOU up at odd hours for a week or two and see if it changes
your
tune. :-)



And the very best would be to have the dog owner's phone number and invite
them to listen to the barkfest with you! If you can't dothat, then you'll
have to roust them in person. Believe me, they'll dislike being disturbed
by the barking moe than you. After a couple of times, the problem is
usually history.

Suzy O

10 minutes is way too much barking. Dogs usually bark for a reason. If
it's something like another dog nearby or cat or noise, it's never 10
minutes. 10 minutes suggests a dog left out who has to bark that long to be
let back in. Not a sign of a good pet owner.

Suzy O

"Bourne Identity" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 03:36:04 -0700, "Rod & Betty Jo"
opined:



Since I was simply addressing a blanket and rather ignorant statement

" It is never the animal's fault. Never. It is always the fault of the
people who leave animals out to bark incessantly" .

......The statement had
no qualifier for time, duration or circumstance.....one could surmise a
barking dog for 10 minutes as easily as 10 hours (both can be rather
irritating)....as it is dogs bark...its what they do...and just because a
dog barks the owner does not inherently deserve the subsequently proffered
penalties. Now granted expecting any sort of reasoned discourse here may
have been a bit optimistic.....nonetheless I thought it worthy to at least
call attention to such sloppy thinking or even flawed values...besides I
was
bored.

Maybe you aren't that well read, or don't have comprehension of four
syllable
words, but what does the term "incessantly" mean? Is that a word you'd
use to
describe a ten minute barking session? OR, would the word "incessantly"
imply
constantly, continual, ongoing, perpetually, never ending, non-stop? One
word,
thesaurus.

You think we haven't tried? Duh. For cripes sakes, we've been here 10+
years, and organized and worked with the po-lice time and again. The
reality: if we were in the more fashionable neighborhood 3 or 4 blocks
away, we'd have cops crawling all over the place. But this mixed
neighborhood only sees property assessments increase by leaps & bounds.
Seems we're just not white or yuppie enough -- yet -- to be heard. BTW, I
love my neighbors, my home, and convenient location. I just wish we'd get
the same municipal services the rest of the city enjoys.

Suzy O

"Vox Humana" wrote in message
...

"Suzy O" wrote in message
...
No, meth labs, drug dealing, strolling prostitutes, and bums hitting the
streets when the liquor stores opens at 8::00 are a reality in many areas
where people also LOVE their homes. So then what?



Sounds like time for the neighbors to organize and drive out the crime.

I wish.

Suzy O

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
In some towns, you can actually speak to the town judge, outside of a
courtroom setting. Push him/her to take the law to its most extreme
conclusion, which MAY involve having the town remove the junk and place a
lien on the neighbor's home. Some judges will also issue injunctions to
force people to obey the law. That gives the cops the ability to take them
away in handcuffs.


"Suzy O" wrote in message
...
Couldn't agree more. We had just such a situation in our neighborhood.
Neighbor of junker got fed up with looking at the crud. Even tho it was
in
violation of city ordinances, the city only stopped the problem
temporarily -- over and over again. The junker's neighbor got a low ball
price for his home.

Anyone have any good solutions?

Suzy O

"Vox Humana" wrote in message
. ..

"Ann" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" expounded:

Would it bother you if your neighbor across the street parked an old
car
on
his lawn, left it there to rust for 5 years, and for whatever reason,
there
was absolutely no way you could block the view using plants, fence,
etc?

When I bought my house the next door neighbors basically had a
junkyard in their backyard. Dead washers, dryers, three rusting tin
sheds, a couple junk trucks, all kinds of tires, etc. Oh well. I
loved my house. They've moved on, new people live there now, they've
cleaned it up, life goes on. It's amazing what you can live with when
it really doesn't affect your basic life functions, like eating,
drinking, etc. Of course I'd rather not look at junk, but I'm not
paying their taxes or their mortgage. It's basically none of my
business.

How would you have felt if you needed to sell your house while the
neighbors
had a virtual junkyard? I don't mean WANT to sell, but NEED to sell.
What
if, due to the trashy neighbors, you found that there were few people
interested in looking let alone making an offer? The offers you do get
are
low-balls. That is a situation where it does become your business
because
the junk reduces your property value or makes your house impossible to
sell.

Trees never wreak havoc on sewers. The piping has to be compromised first
for tree roots to get in -- roots cannot break their way into sewers. More
likely the dude wants the space for a parking space and is using the
sewer/root argument to back up his claim, IMHO and just surmising.

Suzy O


"Ann" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" expounded:

What if the permit is free, but requires a 5 minute look at the tree and a
5
minute talk with the property owner, just to be sure they're not cutting
it
down for stupid reasons? Would that be OK with you?

I guess I just don't see the need (and money has nothing to do with
it). Then again, I wouldn't cut down a beautiful tree for no reason
at all. And I wouldn't cut one down that a neighbor loved (we're
pretty close around here, and many of us are gardeners, or they've
become one living near one ) ) I see lots being cleared around
here and will notice a beautiful oak, and feel bad that it's going to
be cut down to make way for some McMansion. Every once in awhile I'll
notice a tree being left, purposely, it gives me hope someone who
cares is moving onto that lot.

I think Presley has it right. If you live in a metropolitan area,
where trees are a bonus, a premium, then rules are needed II guess) -
there's a brawl going on right now in Boston over a guy who wants to
take down a Norway Maple that the neighbors all love - but it's
wreaking havoc with sewer lines, and he wants to redo his backyard and
gain a parking space. I can't find the reference right now, but he's
the former heahorticultural society or somesuch, he's hardly a slash
and burn guy, and he wants to plant two trees to replace what he's
removing. I think the outcome is in his favor, but it's escalated to
the point where the Boston Globe is covering it. Ok, he's affecting
the aesthetics of lots of people. But out here, we're not.

--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
e-mail address is not checked
******************************

Could we stop the personal attacks, please? It wastes all of our time to
wade through your personal posts hoping to get some gardening info. This is
rec.gardens afterall. Play nice.

Suzy O

"Vox Humana" wrote in message
...

"Ann" wrote in message
...
Bourne Identity expounded:

I thought you had me killfiled. You haven't a clue as to my psyche.
You
know
nothing about me, and less than you think about yourself. I never
claimed to be
a perfect neighbor, but I don't bother anyone and nobody bothers me.
Occasionally a cat will kill a fish, I get ****ed off and let it go.
There is
nothing I can do.

How would you know I'm tough to live near? Do you live near me? I love
the way
people like you live two thousand miles from me, yet, you know all my
inner
workings, how I am to live near, etc. Must be a witch.

I've never used a killfile, Victoria, so I don't know where you got
that idea. As for you being tough to live near, you sit in judgement
on too much to be an easy neighbor. Or so it seems on usenet.

I love the way people like you pretend to be so high and mighty, and
know all of my inner workings, too. I know myself as well las you know
yourself, oh great learned one. You haven't a clue how I live my
life, either.

I didn't think Buddhists were as judgemental as you are.

Let me guess, that was just another exercise in humor?

"Suzy O" wrote in message
...
Trees never wreak havoc on sewers. The piping has to be compromised first
for tree roots to get in -- roots cannot break their way into sewers.
More
likely the dude wants the space for a parking space and is using the
sewer/root argument to back up his claim, IMHO and just surmising.

Suzy O



In older houses (like mine) many sewers are plumbed with 2ft clay tiles, one
end has a bell shape and the male end fits in the bell.....tree roots can
readily penetrate this type of drain line.....luckily the neighbors Popular
tree decided to croak and no longer plugs my line annually although said
tree just dropped a rather large branch on another neighbors roof (Big
tree)......the sweet lady whom originally planted the trees (since deceased)
in 1966 had not idea such little twigs could get so big....Rod

Get to know a couple of the police supervisors - the ones who are the first
to get a major headache when something goes wrong with a "customer" (you &
your neighbors). Some of them can actually make things change. Ask two
things:

1) This doesn't need to be true: "Some of us were wondering what kind of
shotguns your cops carry. Are those appropriate for home protection, too, or
is there a different kind that would be better?" The sergeant will think "Oh
no....". Even if they believe in the right to bear arms, the last thing they
want is to scoop up a teenager with his aorta sticking out of his chest. You
may see more cop cars rolling through your neighborhood.

2) Ask if he/she can arrange for a cop or two to advise certain neighbors
whose outdoor lighting is stupid. We had a rash of burglaries here last
fall. The sergeant who teaches our school's DARE course happens to also be a
major chatterbox - she loves to talk to her employers (us). She was here one
night after a burglary. She commented that many of the outdoor lights
completely blind the cops, just as they blind pedestrians trying to enjoy
the stars at night. Asking your local whoever person about this may make
them realize that your neighborhood's getting motivated, and wants more
help.

3) Smile and say "Everybody loves a treasure hunt, right? Let's have one!
Let's see what happens if we catch the perpetrator before you do!" :-)

Just my opinion, but I think you need to keep the cops wondering about the
neighborhood's balance of sane, desperate, angry and helpless. They have
their own opinion of what the blend should be, but it's good to keep them
guessing.

By the way, many years ago, a cop mentioned something that would not stop
burglaries, but would drastically decrease the amount of things stolen: A
deadbolt on the basement door. Basement windows are a favorite way into a
house.


"Suzy O" wrote in message
...
You think we haven't tried? Duh. For cripes sakes, we've been here 10+
years, and organized and worked with the po-lice time and again. The
reality: if we were in the more fashionable neighborhood 3 or 4 blocks
away, we'd have cops crawling all over the place. But this mixed
neighborhood only sees property assessments increase by leaps & bounds.
Seems we're just not white or yuppie enough -- yet -- to be heard. BTW, I
love my neighbors, my home, and convenient location. I just wish we'd get
the same municipal services the rest of the city enjoys.

Suzy O

"Vox Humana" wrote in message
...

"Suzy O" wrote in message
...
No, meth labs, drug dealing, strolling prostitutes, and bums hitting the
streets when the liquor stores opens at 8::00 are a reality in many
areas
where people also LOVE their homes. So then what?



Sounds like time for the neighbors to organize and drive out the crime.

You wish what?

"Suzy O" wrote in message
...
I wish.

Suzy O

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
In some towns, you can actually speak to the town judge, outside of a
courtroom setting. Push him/her to take the law to its most extreme
conclusion, which MAY involve having the town remove the junk and place a
lien on the neighbor's home. Some judges will also issue injunctions to
force people to obey the law. That gives the cops the ability to take
them
away in handcuffs.


"Suzy O" wrote in message
...
Couldn't agree more. We had just such a situation in our neighborhood.
Neighbor of junker got fed up with looking at the crud. Even tho it was
in
violation of city ordinances, the city only stopped the problem
temporarily -- over and over again. The junker's neighbor got a low
ball
price for his home.

Anyone have any good solutions?

Suzy O

"Vox Humana" wrote in message
. ..

"Ann" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" expounded:

Would it bother you if your neighbor across the street parked an old
car
on
his lawn, left it there to rust for 5 years, and for whatever reason,
there
was absolutely no way you could block the view using plants, fence,
etc?

When I bought my house the next door neighbors basically had a
junkyard in their backyard. Dead washers, dryers, three rusting tin
sheds, a couple junk trucks, all kinds of tires, etc. Oh well. I
loved my house. They've moved on, new people live there now, they've
cleaned it up, life goes on. It's amazing what you can live with when
it really doesn't affect your basic life functions, like eating,
drinking, etc. Of course I'd rather not look at junk, but I'm not
paying their taxes or their mortgage. It's basically none of my
business.

How would you have felt if you needed to sell your house while the
neighbors
had a virtual junkyard? I don't mean WANT to sell, but NEED to sell.
What
if, due to the trashy neighbors, you found that there were few people
interested in looking let alone making an offer? The offers you do get
are
low-balls. That is a situation where it does become your business
because
the junk reduces your property value or makes your house impossible to
sell.

"Suzy O" wrote in message
...
Could we stop the personal attacks, please? It wastes all of our time to
wade through your personal posts hoping to get some gardening info. This
is
rec.gardens afterall. Play nice.


Since your message seems to be directed to me from the attributions, I would
appreciate it if you could point out the part where I made a personal attack
in the message text.


Suzy O

"Vox Humana" wrote in message
...

"Ann" wrote in message
...
Bourne Identity expounded:

I thought you had me killfiled. You haven't a clue as to my psyche.
You
know
nothing about me, and less than you think about yourself. I never
claimed to be
a perfect neighbor, but I don't bother anyone and nobody bothers me.
Occasionally a cat will kill a fish, I get ****ed off and let it go.
There is
nothing I can do.

How would you know I'm tough to live near? Do you live near me? I
love
the way
people like you live two thousand miles from me, yet, you know all my
inner
workings, how I am to live near, etc. Must be a witch.

I've never used a killfile, Victoria, so I don't know where you got
that idea. As for you being tough to live near, you sit in judgement
on too much to be an easy neighbor. Or so it seems on usenet.

I love the way people like you pretend to be so high and mighty, and
know all of my inner workings, too. I know myself as well las you know
yourself, oh great learned one. You haven't a clue how I live my
life, either.

I didn't think Buddhists were as judgemental as you are.

Let me guess, that was just another exercise in humor?

What you said regarding backyard junkyard operations ...... " issue
injunctions to force people to obey the law. That gives the cops the ability
to take them away in handcuffs."

Suzy O
"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
You wish what?

"Suzy O" wrote in message
...
I wish.

Suzy O

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
In some towns, you can actually speak to the town judge, outside of a
courtroom setting. Push him/her to take the law to its most extreme
conclusion, which MAY involve having the town remove the junk and place
a
lien on the neighbor's home. Some judges will also issue injunctions to
force people to obey the law. That gives the cops the ability to take
them
away in handcuffs.


"Suzy O" wrote in message
...
Couldn't agree more. We had just such a situation in our neighborhood.
Neighbor of junker got fed up with looking at the crud. Even tho it
was
in
violation of city ordinances, the city only stopped the problem
temporarily -- over and over again. The junker's neighbor got a low
ball
price for his home.

Anyone have any good solutions?

Suzy O

"Vox Humana" wrote in message
. ..

"Ann" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" expounded:

Would it bother you if your neighbor across the street parked an old
car
on
his lawn, left it there to rust for 5 years, and for whatever
reason,
there
was absolutely no way you could block the view using plants, fence,
etc?

When I bought my house the next door neighbors basically had a
junkyard in their backyard. Dead washers, dryers, three rusting tin
sheds, a couple junk trucks, all kinds of tires, etc. Oh well. I
loved my house. They've moved on, new people live there now, they've
cleaned it up, life goes on. It's amazing what you can live with
when
it really doesn't affect your basic life functions, like eating,
drinking, etc. Of course I'd rather not look at junk, but I'm not
paying their taxes or their mortgage. It's basically none of my
business.

How would you have felt if you needed to sell your house while the
neighbors
had a virtual junkyard? I don't mean WANT to sell, but NEED to sell.
What
if, due to the trashy neighbors, you found that there were few people
interested in looking let alone making an offer? The offers you do
get
are
low-balls. That is a situation where it does become your business
because
the junk reduces your property value or makes your house impossible to
sell.

Wasn't referring to you especially, as the post(s) I quoted seems to involve
3 people (see below). And okay, how 'bout this instead, whoever the hell is
bickering below, chill. Can't speak for anyone else, but I am not
interested in wading thru this crap. At least change the header, eh?

Suzy O

"Vox Humana" wrote in message
...

"Suzy O" wrote in message
...
Could we stop the personal attacks, please? It wastes all of our time to
wade through your personal posts hoping to get some gardening info. This
is
rec.gardens afterall. Play nice.


Since your message seems to be directed to me from the attributions, I
would
appreciate it if you could point out the part where I made a personal
attack
in the message text.


Suzy O

"Vox Humana" wrote in message
...

"Ann" wrote in message
...
Bourne Identity expounded:

I thought you had me killfiled. You haven't a clue as to my psyche.
You
know
nothing about me, and less than you think about yourself. I never
claimed to be
a perfect neighbor, but I don't bother anyone and nobody bothers me.
Occasionally a cat will kill a fish, I get ****ed off and let it go.
There is
nothing I can do.

How would you know I'm tough to live near? Do you live near me? I
love
the way
people like you live two thousand miles from me, yet, you know all my
inner
workings, how I am to live near, etc. Must be a witch.

I've never used a killfile, Victoria, so I don't know where you got
that idea. As for you being tough to live near, you sit in judgement
on too much to be an easy neighbor. Or so it seems on usenet.

I love the way people like you pretend to be so high and mighty, and
know all of my inner workings, too. I know myself as well las you know
yourself, oh great learned one. You haven't a clue how I live my
life, either.

I didn't think Buddhists were as judgemental as you are.

Let me guess, that was just another exercise in humor?