On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:30:44 +0100, Janet Baraclough
wrote:

The message
from Ann contains these words:

I can cut down any tree I want on my property. As I should be able
to. You go ahead and live in your controlling environment, I promise
I won't move next door to you. And thankfully most of New England
feels as I do.

I suppose that depends whether you view yourself as the sole owner
the land you bought, or just the latest in a long line, the current
custodian who will one day hand it on to another by death or sale or
inheritance.

I am the current owner of my land. I decide what will happen while I
own it.

I have aerial photos of my land that go back 70 years. During the
interim it has been field, forest, and thanks to me, field again.
Which way should it be? That is decided by the owner.

What if the tree is many hundreds of years old, or a "champion" of its
species, or an extreme rarity, or a special landmark of the
neighbourhood? Does someone who pays a mortgage on the tree's patch of
soil for a few years, acquire an inalienable right to remove something
very rare or special?
The owner decides what is special. To each as he sees fit.

People are transient, so are their decisions. The forest is patient
and will do what forests do.

JMHO

John

"Vox Humana" wrote in message
. ..

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from Ann contains these words:

I can cut down any tree I want on my property. As I should be able
to. You go ahead and live in your controlling environment, I promise
I won't move next door to you. And thankfully most of New England
feels as I do.

I suppose that depends whether you view yourself as the sole owner
the land you bought, or just the latest in a long line, the current
custodian who will one day hand it on to another by death or sale or
inheritance.

What if the tree is many hundreds of years old, or a "champion" of its
species, or an extreme rarity, or a special landmark of the
neighbourhood? Does someone who pays a mortgage on the tree's patch of
soil for a few years, acquire an inalienable right to remove something
very rare or special?

Stop it. You're being too logical.



And there ARE weed trees......... 30 or 40 years ago someone planted a
living wind-break // snow fence on the property line between our current
property and our current neighbor. A row of alternating Poplar and White
Pine. The Poplar are now in their senesence and already this year we have
felled 4 ( for stove-wood) and a 5th has fallen on its own. The White Pines
need the space we provide by taking the ailing /dying Poplar.

Our neighbors and I agree that we LIKE the row of White Pines, we are
comfortable with and appreciate the "look" it gives to our contiguous
property. WE ALSO agree that the Poplars need to be felled before they
fall. They fall on OUR side of the line, WE slice and dice and WE keep the
stove wood for our efforts. The neighbors do not use firewood. Works FOR
US BOTH

I think there are 8 more Poplar that will be stove-wood in the next year or
2.

Another of our property lines abuts the Town Maintained Road. On this line
we have 3 massive Sugar Maple, some significant Red Pine, and 5 mature
clumps of White Birch.

Well, those White Birch are darn pretty trunks and folks always tell us
how lovely they are, but looking up into their canopy tells the tale that
those White Birch will be on the ground in a year or 3 also. As they
overhang the Town Road, the Town may decide to take them before they create
a hazard, and we would be out the heating fuel from the stove wood. OF
COURSE we will take them before the town road crew gets them. Town road
crew won't be getting OUR firewood. There is heating fuel in those trees!

The Sugar Maple and the Red Pine are Keepers, their size is testimony to
their age and their age is testimony to both husbandship of this property,
and to the age of our house ( circa 1814).

The blessing in our Small Woodlot Management is that there is replacement
and regeneration, naturally, over time. Already there are more White Birch,
Red Pine, Sugar Maple as well as Oak and White Pine in the understory
needing sun and open space to prosper and reach maturity.

Oaks?? Where did our little OAKs come from??? Oh Years ago, there were
2 HUGE Oak ( I never saw them standing, but can still find the remains of
stumps) and generations of squirrel did their best to help save their food
supply.

We do routinely harvest mature woodcrop here on a tiny 2 acre parcel.
Please note that we are harvesting only WEED TREES with a naturally short
lifespan, and MATURE/DYING/HAZARD trees, while creating space for the
natural renewal of resources.

WE may not see the harvest of the new crop in OUR lifetime, but the next
owners of this property will, by nature and nurture, recieve their benefits
in beauty and bounty.

Trees wear big shoes... They cast shadows to cool, they divert wind to
save your heat bill. They divert water by their roots, and divert snow by
their branches and girth.

Their height and breadth can squash property, but the wood from those
trees harvested at the right time can help heat your house and create
dancing firelight on your hearth.

Sue
Western Maine

Never underestimate a Tree, it has all matter of value as your friend, but
can be your certain enemy in an ill wind. Think of your trees as you think
of your neighbors, both in life and death.

Philip Lewis writes in article dated 16 Jun 2005 15:15:50 -0400:
All in all, I think It bothers my wife more than it does me... but
even I was upset over the the various 3-6 am extended ( 10 minutes)
barking sessions. (the neighbor works odd hours). Usually by morning
I have better things to do than track the neighbor down.

Why wait until morning? If the neighbor's dog barks at nighttime, call her
on the phone right away. If she's working, the voicemail will record the
time so you don't have to think about it. If she doesn't hear the barking
because she's watching TV or something, maybe she will put a stop to it.
If she's sleeping peacefully through all the commotion and you're not, wake
her.

I'm just that way. I had a roommate borrow a lighter after I went to sleep
one evening (without permission). In the morning I felt like a smoke, so I
woke him up.

"It's a shame you had to wake me up for *that*."

"Yeah, it is."

It didn't happen again.

-- spud_demon -at- thundermaker.net
The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.

It will take 30 years to replace the tree. Resolving barking dogs, unruly
kids, loud music and late night parties, unkept or ugly neighboring property
problems will all be resolved long before the tree can be replaced. The
problems you bring up are transitional, and believe me, as a renter for 20+
years, I've dealt with the gamut of miserable neighbors. However, a tree
lost is gone -- forever.

Suzy O

Hound Dog" wrote in message
...

"Toni" wrote in message
...
[whining mode] New neighbors next door- to the west.
Their first week in they've cut down a *beautiful* 30 year old Black
Olive
tree that shaded my entire front garden- full of shade plants.
Anthuriums,
calatheas, ferns, teeny little gems that I had cherished for years in
containers before putting them in the ground.
That garden is only one year old- and now I am having to reorganize the
whole darn thing. Plants are wilting faster than I can transplant them.

And I thought our town had an ordinance against this sort of thing
without
a
permit- guess that explains the city trucks I've seen stopping to take
photos of the stump three times now.
Would I be evil to hope they get fined?

And I know about Black Olive maintenance issues- I have one. But had they
bothered to live here a while before killing trees they'd have noticed
that
*we* always keep their walkways pressure cleaned- husband just can't seem
to
stop once he gets going.
Not feeling too good about my new neighbors right now. [/whining mode]


--
Toni
South Florida USA
Zone 10b
http://ww.cearbhaill.com

Guess you should have bought the property when you had the chance.

Whining over a damn tree!? Lady, you ain't seen nothing yet!

Barking dogs?
Noisy, unruly kids?
Boom Boxes?
Loud parties that go on for hours?
Unkempt lawn?
Oddly painted house?
And on and on and on...

Get the picture?

No doubt most property owners in the US have every right to cut down trees
or eliminate all vegetation and pave everything over. My question is, what
about stewardship for that which we own/control? I my mind, that is a
larger issue than a neighbor losing a shady area. For anyone who thinks
that cutting a tree down, especially in an urban area, is no big deal,
perhaps it would be worthwhile to look into why other folks think trees are
so valuable.

But, as I mentioned earlier, it will take another 30 years to replace that
tree. Beside the loss of shade, I definitely got the impression that the OP
was also upset because the neighbors cut the tree down in one week without
considering the short AND long term effect (in the OP's mind anyway).

Just my take on the subject............

Suzy O

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from Ann contains these words:

I can cut down any tree I want on my property. As I should be able
to. You go ahead and live in your controlling environment, I promise
I won't move next door to you. And thankfully most of New England
feels as I do.

I suppose that depends whether you view yourself as the sole owner
the land you bought, or just the latest in a long line, the current
custodian who will one day hand it on to another by death or sale or
inheritance.

What if the tree is many hundreds of years old, or a "champion" of its
species, or an extreme rarity, or a special landmark of the
neighbourhood? Does someone who pays a mortgage on the tree's patch of
soil for a few years, acquire an inalienable right to remove something
very rare or special?

Janet.

I suspect the original windbreak planter meant for the poplars to be removed
when the slower growing white pine filled out. The only recommended use for
poplars that I know of is to have something fill in an area FAST. Removing
the poplars, which are now very elderly trees, is probably just what the
original tree planter had in mind. Go for it!

Suzy O


"Sue in Western Maine" wrote in message
...

"Vox Humana" wrote in message
. ..

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from Ann contains these words:

I can cut down any tree I want on my property. As I should be able
to. You go ahead and live in your controlling environment, I promise
I won't move next door to you. And thankfully most of New England
feels as I do.

I suppose that depends whether you view yourself as the sole owner
the land you bought, or just the latest in a long line, the current
custodian who will one day hand it on to another by death or sale or
inheritance.

What if the tree is many hundreds of years old, or a "champion" of its
species, or an extreme rarity, or a special landmark of the
neighbourhood? Does someone who pays a mortgage on the tree's patch
of
soil for a few years, acquire an inalienable right to remove something
very rare or special?

Stop it. You're being too logical.



And there ARE weed trees......... 30 or 40 years ago someone planted a
living wind-break // snow fence on the property line between our
current
property and our current neighbor. A row of alternating Poplar and White
Pine. The Poplar are now in their senesence and already this year we have
felled 4 ( for stove-wood) and a 5th has fallen on its own. The White
Pines
need the space we provide by taking the ailing /dying Poplar.

Our neighbors and I agree that we LIKE the row of White Pines, we are
comfortable with and appreciate the "look" it gives to our contiguous
property. WE ALSO agree that the Poplars need to be felled before they
fall. They fall on OUR side of the line, WE slice and dice and WE keep
the
stove wood for our efforts. The neighbors do not use firewood. Works
FOR
US BOTH

I think there are 8 more Poplar that will be stove-wood in the next year
or
2.

Another of our property lines abuts the Town Maintained Road. On this
line
we have 3 massive Sugar Maple, some significant Red Pine, and 5
mature
clumps of White Birch.

Well, those White Birch are darn pretty trunks and folks always tell us
how lovely they are, but looking up into their canopy tells the tale
that
those White Birch will be on the ground in a year or 3 also. As they
overhang the Town Road, the Town may decide to take them before they
create
a hazard, and we would be out the heating fuel from the stove wood. OF
COURSE we will take them before the town road crew gets them. Town road
crew won't be getting OUR firewood. There is heating fuel in those trees!

The Sugar Maple and the Red Pine are Keepers, their size is testimony to
their age and their age is testimony to both husbandship of this
property,
and to the age of our house ( circa 1814).

The blessing in our Small Woodlot Management is that there is
replacement
and regeneration, naturally, over time. Already there are more White
Birch,
Red Pine, Sugar Maple as well as Oak and White Pine in the understory
needing sun and open space to prosper and reach maturity.

Oaks?? Where did our little OAKs come from??? Oh Years ago, there were
2 HUGE Oak ( I never saw them standing, but can still find the remains of
stumps) and generations of squirrel did their best to help save their
food
supply.

We do routinely harvest mature woodcrop here on a tiny 2 acre parcel.
Please note that we are harvesting only WEED TREES with a naturally short
lifespan, and MATURE/DYING/HAZARD trees, while creating space for the
natural renewal of resources.

WE may not see the harvest of the new crop in OUR lifetime, but the next
owners of this property will, by nature and nurture, recieve their
benefits
in beauty and bounty.

Trees wear big shoes... They cast shadows to cool, they divert wind to
save your heat bill. They divert water by their roots, and divert snow by
their branches and girth.

Their height and breadth can squash property, but the wood from those
trees harvested at the right time can help heat your house and create
dancing firelight on your hearth.

Sue
Western Maine

Never underestimate a Tree, it has all matter of value as your friend,
but
can be your certain enemy in an ill wind. Think of your trees as you
think
of your neighbors, both in life and death.

Couldn't agree more. We had just such a situation in our neighborhood.
Neighbor of junker got fed up with looking at the crud. Even tho it was in
violation of city ordinances, the city only stopped the problem
temporarily -- over and over again. The junker's neighbor got a low ball
price for his home.

Anyone have any good solutions?

Suzy O

"Vox Humana" wrote in message
. ..

"Ann" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" expounded:

Would it bother you if your neighbor across the street parked an old car
on
his lawn, left it there to rust for 5 years, and for whatever reason,
there
was absolutely no way you could block the view using plants, fence, etc?

When I bought my house the next door neighbors basically had a
junkyard in their backyard. Dead washers, dryers, three rusting tin
sheds, a couple junk trucks, all kinds of tires, etc. Oh well. I
loved my house. They've moved on, new people live there now, they've
cleaned it up, life goes on. It's amazing what you can live with when
it really doesn't affect your basic life functions, like eating,
drinking, etc. Of course I'd rather not look at junk, but I'm not
paying their taxes or their mortgage. It's basically none of my
business.

How would you have felt if you needed to sell your house while the
neighbors
had a virtual junkyard? I don't mean WANT to sell, but NEED to sell.
What
if, due to the trashy neighbors, you found that there were few people
interested in looking let alone making an offer? The offers you do get
are
low-balls. That is a situation where it does become your business because
the junk reduces your property value or makes your house impossible to
sell.

No, meth labs, drug dealing, strolling prostitutes, and bums hitting the
streets when the liquor stores opens at 8::00 are a reality in many areas
where people also LOVE their homes. So then what?

Suzy O

"Ann" wrote in message
...
"Vox Humana" expounded:

As for moving next to you, it would be the last thing I would ever
consider.
I'm not worried about the homes of others. I just don't want
inconsiderate
slobs, people operating meth labs, or acid-rock band rehearsals in my
neighborhood. I would be perfectly content if these things occurred in
your
neighborhood because even slobs and drug deals have to live somewhere. I
suspect that you would be a hideous neighbor, bitching about everything
bothered you. I would laugh if a pig farm moved next to you. Remember,
you
don't pay the mortgage or taxes so the stench would be none of your
business. One man's stench is another's junk yard. Enjoy.

Meth labs. Inconsiderate slobs. Nice. You are another one who
resorts to insults when you're losing your argument. I hope you learn
to be more tolerant of those who have different views than you do.
But I'm pretty sure you're incapable of it.
--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
e-mail address is not checked
******************************

"Suzy O" wrote in message
...
It will take 30 years to replace the tree. Resolving barking dogs, unruly
kids, loud music and late night parties, unkept or ugly neighboring
property
problems will all be resolved long before the tree can be replaced. The
problems you bring up are transitional, and believe me, as a renter for
20+
years, I've dealt with the gamut of miserable neighbors. However, a tree
lost is gone -- forever.

Suzy O

A tree that will eventually grow to be 50' tall and 50' wide should never be
planted on a small residential lot.

Such a tree will not only effect the owner of the property the tree is on,
but the property of at least eight other neighbors.

To you perhaps the other problems I mentioned are small things that will
only last a short while, but that's not so.

Barking dogs may live for 20 years or more then might be replaced with other
untrained dogs by uncaring neighbors.

Loud, unruly kids could be around for a decade or so to be replaced by God
only knows how many more generations of grandkids.

A neighbor that is not keeping his property up now, may never do so.

That lone complaining neighbor may be angry about the tree being chopped
down, but I just wonder how many others that have been effected by the
tree's shadow for countless years are happy the tree will soon be burning in
someone's fireplace.

"Suzy O" expounded:

No, meth labs, drug dealing, strolling prostitutes, and bums hitting the
streets when the liquor stores opens at 8::00 are a reality in many areas
where people also LOVE their homes. So then what?

Ask Vox Humana, she's the one who brought that up.
--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
e-mail address is not checked
******************************

"Spud Demon" wrote in message
...
Philip Lewis writes in article
dated 16 Jun 2005 15:15:50 -0400:
All in all, I think It bothers my wife more than it does me... but
even I was upset over the the various 3-6 am extended ( 10 minutes)
barking sessions. (the neighbor works odd hours). Usually by morning
I have better things to do than track the neighbor down.

Why wait until morning? If the neighbor's dog barks at nighttime, call
her
on the phone right away. If she's working, the voicemail will record the
time so you don't have to think about it. If she doesn't hear the barking
because she's watching TV or something, maybe she will put a stop to it.
If she's sleeping peacefully through all the commotion and you're not,
wake
her.

Even better: Get someone else to handle the problem for you. Call the cops,
and keep calling them every time the stupid dog barks in the middle of the
night. They HATE dealing with this kind of stuff, so they, in turn, will get
all over the animal control people, and if there are existing laws for
dealing with barking vermin, the barking will stop, or the dog will be
hauled off to the pound, where it will soon be put to death. That's the
right solution.

In some towns, you can actually speak to the town judge, outside of a
courtroom setting. Push him/her to take the law to its most extreme
conclusion, which MAY involve having the town remove the junk and place a
lien on the neighbor's home. Some judges will also issue injunctions to
force people to obey the law. That gives the cops the ability to take them
away in handcuffs.


"Suzy O" wrote in message
...
Couldn't agree more. We had just such a situation in our neighborhood.
Neighbor of junker got fed up with looking at the crud. Even tho it was
in
violation of city ordinances, the city only stopped the problem
temporarily -- over and over again. The junker's neighbor got a low ball
price for his home.

Anyone have any good solutions?

Suzy O

"Vox Humana" wrote in message
. ..

"Ann" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" expounded:

Would it bother you if your neighbor across the street parked an old
car
on
his lawn, left it there to rust for 5 years, and for whatever reason,
there
was absolutely no way you could block the view using plants, fence,
etc?

When I bought my house the next door neighbors basically had a
junkyard in their backyard. Dead washers, dryers, three rusting tin
sheds, a couple junk trucks, all kinds of tires, etc. Oh well. I
loved my house. They've moved on, new people live there now, they've
cleaned it up, life goes on. It's amazing what you can live with when
it really doesn't affect your basic life functions, like eating,
drinking, etc. Of course I'd rather not look at junk, but I'm not
paying their taxes or their mortgage. It's basically none of my
business.

How would you have felt if you needed to sell your house while the
neighbors
had a virtual junkyard? I don't mean WANT to sell, but NEED to sell.
What
if, due to the trashy neighbors, you found that there were few people
interested in looking let alone making an offer? The offers you do get
are
low-balls. That is a situation where it does become your business
because
the junk reduces your property value or makes your house impossible to
sell.

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from Ann contains these words:

I can cut down any tree I want on my property. As I should be able
to. You go ahead and live in your controlling environment, I promise
I won't move next door to you. And thankfully most of New England
feels as I do.

I suppose that depends whether you view yourself as the sole owner
the land you bought, or just the latest in a long line, the current
custodian who will one day hand it on to another by death or sale or
inheritance.

What if the tree is many hundreds of years old, or a "champion" of its
species, or an extreme rarity, or a special landmark of the
neighbourhood? Does someone who pays a mortgage on the tree's patch of
soil for a few years, acquire an inalienable right to remove something
very rare or special?

Janet.

Remember, Janet, that this is a country where some people interpret our
constitution to mean that you can do anything you damned well please, as
long as it's within the law. So, try telling someone with a fat SUV that
it's silly to own one if they don't actually need a truck-type vehicle for
towing or other similar purpose that's appropriate to such a vehicle.
Probably half the time, the response will be "Oh....it's OK...I can afford
the gasoline". They'll completely miss the point that it's obscene to waste
resources. The other typical response, if you mention air quality, is that
"those environmentalists have yet to prove blah blah blah....".

The trees have an uphill battle on their hands.

Anyone every read Ecotopia? Lord Fouls Bane by Donaldson another
worth a look. Both wonderful but a word of warning. Lord Foul is the
first of a series of eight. In the end only women ..... Nah....check
them out from your local library.

"Tell the lords in Riverstone there is no hope for the land."


Bill

--
Garden Shade Zone 5 in a Japanese Jungle manner.
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William Wagner wrote:
No rusting junk about here just many bored barking dogs.

I have my daughter take care of the neighbors dog
when he's unruly. Here's a pic...

http://www.c700.com/promo/kakatoe/adestra132.jpg
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