When Gore flies somewhere to deliver his message his trip will hopefully reduce
carbon emissions by a great deal compared with the emissions he contributed by
flying. Compare that to a business exec that is flying somewhere and the outcome is
making some widget that will use even more carbon emissions.

There are separate questions/facts to consider.
1. Has CO2 increased to unprecedented levels?
CO2 absorbs and holds IR extremely well. As CO2 levels increase, temperature
increases. As CO2 levels decrease, temperature decreases.
CO2 levels have never been higher in 650,000 years than they are now.

2. What is causing the increased CO2 levels?
Natural cycles, volcanoes etc, but no other natural cycle in 650K years has been this
high. What is different in this cycle is humans burning fossil fuels.

Consider the cycle of ozone depletion. The "hole" was huge and getting bigger every
year. Humans banned CFCs and the hole has stopped expanding and appears to be
closing.

Carefully examine the bias of people (spokespeople, scientists, etc) who deny the
human factor and there will be some link to carbon emissions for money.

Ingrid

On Sat, 3 Nov 2007 22:42:54 CST, Gill Passman wrote:
I said "ironic" when it came to Al Gore - and indeed it is that in this
world that we have created that in order to get a message across the
problem is further contributed to....

very good point. Our big contribution to cleaning up was moving from the burbs into
the city where DH can walk to work, I have a short, slow drive. It has not only cut
the transportation costs, but the mental health aspects of driving 5 minutes along an
interesting street. I wish I was younger and could ride a bike ...
Ingrid

On Sat, 3 Nov 2007 18:17:38 CST, ~ jan wrote:
Just some random thoughts: How can so many humans NOT affect the climate?

On Sun, 4 Nov 2007 10:22:21 CST, wrote:

very good point. Our big contribution to cleaning up was moving from the burbs into
the city where DH can walk to work, I have a short, slow drive. It has not only cut
the transportation costs, but the mental health aspects of driving 5 minutes along an
interesting street. I wish I was younger and could ride a bike ...
Ingrid

Giggle statement following... can't be just age Ingrid, I know you're not
79, but my Dad is, and he puts in 20 miles/day easy. :-)

Course commuting to work on a bike is a whole 'nother matter, especially if
one has to be there when it is still dark out, and/or many areas get
"quite" chilly this time of year. Than there is the question, do the roads
have good shoulders or bike trails?.... A 5 minute drive, up and down hills
is nothing, by bike could be grueling.

Not that it can't be done, my DH rode his bike 10 miles to work for years.
~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

Hi..

wrote:

very good point. Our big contribution to cleaning up was moving
from the burbs into the city where DH can walk to work, I have
a short, slow drive. It has not only cut the transportation costs,
but the mental health aspects of driving 5 minutes along an
interesting street.

Ingrid,
our main problem is _wasted_ energy but there are so many ways to conserve
it efficiently..

One example (freshwater):
We're 3 at the moment, our consumption of water is ~60 cube meters per year
including aquaria, summer ponds and garden watering (~55 litres (15g) per
person and day)..

I wish I was younger and could ride a bike ...

Hm.., the older I get the more mellow I feel - so why should I wish to be
younger..?

BTW: Did you see the latest pics of Bogota (drop of temperature, ice
catastrophe) on TV..? :-(
--
cu
Marco

Marco Schwarz wrote:
Hi..




Ingrid,
our main problem is _wasted_ energy but there are so many ways to conserve
it efficiently..

Not only wasted energy but also inefficient sources of energy that are
pollutants......there is a massive business park, the main football
stadium and out of town shops powered from just one wind turbine - and
that wind turbine also contributes to the national grid......clean,
environmentally friendly sources of power are the way to go IMO - yes,
conserve energy where possible but the solution is more than that -
clean energy generation like harnessing wind/sun/water is the way to go.
This does not impact the environment, other than I guess people might
say wind turbines/solar panels are unslightly...but I would counter this
by the sight of a coal powered power station bellowing smoke into the
air is far uglier - BTW I like wind turbines

Then of course we need to look at recycling our waste products - all the
stuff that goes to landfill contributes to build ups of methane gas and
of course there has to be a limit as to how much of our rubbish/trash we
can actually bury.....it really doesn't take too much effort to sort the
stuff - currently our council won't recycle food stuffs but I heard of a
gizmo that does just this (so even less going into landfill)....it is
called a green cone. The link is a UK one but you'll get the general idea:-

http://www.greencone.com/home.asp?lang=1

And of course, one of the biggest frustrations is the amount of
packaging used when we do buy stuff - OK cutting back might cause a
crisis in the packaging manufacturing industry but it sure would cut
down on waste and the energy used to produce the stuff that we just open
and throw away....

Gill

Wind energy ~~~~~~
We have two sites in our area. One run by my husband's
company. They are so strong that they can be seen on
the doppler radar by weather persons 400 miles away.

Of course, where there is a will there is somebody
to oppose it.
There is a protest group all set up for the next project
http://www.tri-cityherald.com/tch/lo...-9342335c.html
The old 'not in my backyard' effect.

k :-)

Windmill farm in our area taken 11-4-07
http://tinyurl.com/2frzdu

k :-)

k wrote:
Wind energy ~~~~~~
We have two sites in our area. One run by my husband's
company. They are so strong that they can be seen on
the doppler radar by weather persons 400 miles away.

Of course, where there is a will there is somebody
to oppose it.
There is a protest group all set up for the next project
http://www.tri-cityherald.com/tch/lo...-9342335c.html
The old 'not in my backyard' effect.

k :-)


Hmmmm.....so a bunch of windmills are a threat but dealing with
radioactive, nuclear waste isn't? The "not in my backyard" arguement is
often heard over here as well but what happens when we run out of fossil
fuels or we burn so much that the planet heads for destruction - global
warming will wipe out way more indiginous species than the siting of a
few windmills ever would (by the way loved the pic of the wind
farm).....the burning of fossil fuels and indeed probably the use of
atomic power is almost certainly backed by big business interests with
political muscle and sadly money still talks louder than what is best
for the planet......just look at those countries who refuse to sign up
to any treatice on this......and the only reason is politics, loss of
votes and pressure from industries who will lose out with a greener
economy....

Gill

dealing with
radioactive, nuclear waste isn't?

Well...... actually DH will tell you it is not
a problem. As his company, which runs one of the
wind farms, also runs a nuclear power plant ;-)

k :-)

The REAL source of unlimited energy would be solar panels out in space. wouldnt take
up any space on earth, set them out to the side of earth so wont shade earth either.
beam the energy back to earth. OR, tap the "solar wind" which is particles as well
and EMS.
I dont know why we cant buy liquids in those little triangle packages like in Europe.
so convenient. we dont buy much canned stuff, but we still have too much plastic
trash. Ingrid

On Sun, 4 Nov 2007 15:17:34 CST, Gill Passman wrote:
Not only wasted energy but also inefficient sources of energy that are
pollutants......there is a massive business park, the main football
stadium and out of town shops powered from just one wind turbine - and
that wind turbine also contributes to the national grid......clean,
environmentally friendly sources of power are the way to go IMO

And of course, one of the biggest frustrations is the amount of
packaging used when we do buy stuff - OK cutting back might cause a
crisis in the packaging manufacturing industry but it sure would cut
down on waste and the energy used to produce the stuff that we just open
and throw away....

Gill

youth is wasted on the young. I like mentally where I am, but not physically.

I thought I heard something, but didnt pay attention, was writing an exam for my
students. got any good links for the ice storm? Ingrid

On Sun, 4 Nov 2007 12:19:23 CST, Marco Schwarz wrote:
Hm.., the older I get the more mellow I feel - so why should I wish to be
younger..?

BTW: Did you see the latest pics of Bogota (drop of temperature, ice
catastrophe) on TV..? :-(

I suffer from now being a wimp and overweight. I just cant do that kind of exercise
anymore. I seriously have tried and cant get more than 1/2 block. Ingrid

On Sun, 4 Nov 2007 11:17:58 CST, ~ jan wrote:
Course commuting to work on a bike is a whole 'nother matter, especially if
one has to be there when it is still dark out, and/or many areas get
"quite" chilly this time of year. Than there is the question, do the roads
have good shoulders or bike trails?.... A 5 minute drive, up and down hills
is nothing, by bike could be grueling.

Not that it can't be done, my DH rode his bike 10 miles to work for years.
~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

On Sun, 4 Nov 2007 18:06:11 CST, Gill Passman wrote:
2 countries, the US and Australia IIRC. Ingrid

..just look at those countries who refuse to sign up
to any treatice on this......and the only reason is politics, loss of
votes and pressure from industries who will lose out with a greener
economy....

Gill