On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 13:03:00 GMT, "Cybe R. Wizard"
Cybe_R_Wizard@WizardsTower wrote:

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 08:45:01 GMT
"Just Me \"Koi\"" wrote:

If you pull it off though, I will be the first in line to emulate you!

DANG, I must be getting old.
I read that as, "...immolate you."

Cybe R. Wizard

Well, I hope it wasn't a prophetic reading...especially since I'll be
experimenting with it for a bit.

Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 08:45:01 GMT, "Just Me \"Koi\""
wrote:

You are my kind of Dude, Dude!

Fire? Who is afraid of fire! Not you!

Actually I think it is a great idea, only that I am not masculine enough to
mess with gas or electricity!

For it to really look cool, the nozzle will have to be hidden, and the gas
flow will have to be substantial enough to flood the surface of the water
and then be ignite and sustain the burn! You said it best that you will
need to play with the gas nozzle, fire extinguisher, scotched Koi, first aid
kit, and one touch dial to the paramedics and the fire department.

If you pull it off though, I will be the first in line to emulate you!


I'm hoping to be able to have the nozzle under the water, the farther
down the better.

Right now I have no fish, so that's no problem yet, just want to
investigate before getting fish. (I plan to get tilapia & cheap
goldfish anyway.)

I have a couple of old metal #10 washtubs, I think they hold 50-60
gallons, I'll use one for my "test pond".

If I can find a way to test for toxins, I will. If not, I may get a
coupla cheap goldfiah to act as my "canaries".

OF course, even if I discover specific toxin levels in the water, then
I'd need to know what level are likely to harm fish.


Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

Mike Patterson wrote:

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 08:45:01 GMT, "Just Me \"Koi\""
wrote:

You are my kind of Dude, Dude!

Fire? Who is afraid of fire! Not you!

Actually I think it is a great idea, only that I am not masculine enough to
mess with gas or electricity!

For it to really look cool, the nozzle will have to be hidden, and the gas
flow will have to be substantial enough to flood the surface of the water
and then be ignite and sustain the burn! You said it best that you will
need to play with the gas nozzle, fire extinguisher, scotched Koi, first aid
kit, and one touch dial to the paramedics and the fire department.

If you pull it off though, I will be the first in line to emulate you!


I'm hoping to be able to have the nozzle under the water, the farther
down the better.

Check on the dissolvability of natural gas, and its components in water.
It has been a long time since chem class, I don't know. A lab with
bunsen burners would be really handy here, maybe you can get some HS
students interested in a little experiment. Or maybe ask in a chemistry
newsgroup.

You might also want to look at industrial supply sites, as burning off
excess gas is a common problem in oil production, and landfills.

Simply having the flame at pond level would be cool, think of the
eternal flame at Kennedy's grave site, except coming out of water, with
no visible means of support, just a flame coming out of the middle of
the pond.

I have a couple of old metal #10 washtubs, I think they hold 50-60
gallons, I'll use one for my "test pond".

A really good idea.

If I can find a way to test for toxins, I will. If not, I may get a
coupla cheap goldfiah to act as my "canaries".

The under USD$2 per dozen goldfish sold for feeding other fish, work
well as pond fish. They grow up very nicely.

Jim wrote:

How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.

Does natural gas contain sulfur? If so, I seem to recall something
about Sulfur Dioxide (poison) or Hydrogen Sulfide (rotten egg smell)
being a possible byproduct when mixed with water. I'm sure some of
our chemistry experts will chime in on this one, as I've forgotten
much more about chemistry than I remember.

One can get tanks of any kind of gas one wants. If there is a problem
with contamination, get a tank of pure gas. Anything in the ane family
(methane, butane, propane) will do.

The ever present propane exchange cylinders come to mind. One would
almost certainly have legal liability issues connecting a home made
gizmo to the natural gas supply, which this would avoid.

A lot of hassles would be eliminated, at least at first, with a tank
setup. Don't bother running a permanent gas line, until the cost of the
tanks justifies it, and it doesn't wear out its welcome the first
season.

Mike Patterson wrote:

'Cause I don't want no cutesy namby-pamby girly thing, I'm going for
-cool- not -cute-. :-)

Micro butane torches, like the pocket sized ones, and a styrofoam
collar? (harbor freight item 39440-3rah $5)

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 09:37:27 -0600, John Hines
wrote:

Mike Patterson wrote:

'Cause I don't want no cutesy namby-pamby girly thing, I'm going for
-cool- not -cute-. :-)

Micro butane torches, like the pocket sized ones, and a styrofoam
collar? (harbor freight item 39440-3rah $5)


That's a thought, I actually have one of those, but I was hoping to
get the "fire on the water with no visible means of support" look.

Just how water-insoluble is gasoline, I wonder? And how completely
would it burn off the surface of the water?

Somehow I don't think that one will work...

Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

Mike Patterson wrote:
Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage
problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed,
so now I'm thinking...

How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.

I wouldn't run it all the time, but it'd be a cool effect for parties.

Would there be any adverse repercussions to the fish?

Mike
Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

By bubbling the NG through the pond, some of it is going to diffuse into the
water. I doubt the fish would appreciate that any more than you would someone
leaving the gas on at the stove.

Mike Patterson wrote:

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 09:37:27 -0600, John Hines
wrote:

Mike Patterson wrote:

'Cause I don't want no cutesy namby-pamby girly thing, I'm going for
-cool- not -cute-. :-)

Micro butane torches, like the pocket sized ones, and a styrofoam
collar? (harbor freight item 39440-3rah $5)


That's a thought, I actually have one of those, but I was hoping to
get the "fire on the water with no visible means of support" look.

Put it in a partially submerged container, which floats such that it
holds the flame in the right position to the water? Paint it black and
it will disappear from sight.

Just how water-insoluble is gasoline, I wonder? And how completely
would it burn off the surface of the water?

Again, look for a cleaner oil. For example, pure (clear) kerosene. The
fewer the additives, the easier it is to figure out.

You should look into the water-carbide reaction which generates
acetylene when mixed. This was what used to power headlines and miners
hat lights back about 1900 or so. What is left is a mess, which one
wouldn't want in the pond, but if you could keep them separate, it is a
historical source of portable flammable gas.

Mike Patterson wrote:

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 09:37:27 -0600, John Hines
wrote:

Mike Patterson wrote:

'Cause I don't want no cutesy namby-pamby girly thing, I'm going for
-cool- not -cute-. :-)

Micro butane torches, like the pocket sized ones, and a styrofoam
collar? (harbor freight item 39440-3rah $5)


That's a thought, I actually have one of those, but I was hoping to
get the "fire on the water with no visible means of support" look.

Put it in a partially submerged container, which floats such that it
holds the flame in the right position to the water? Paint it black and
it will disappear from sight.

Just how water-insoluble is gasoline, I wonder? And how completely
would it burn off the surface of the water?

Again, look for a cleaner oil. For example, pure (clear) kerosene. The
fewer the additives, the easier it is to figure out.

You should look into the water-carbide reaction which generates
acetylene when mixed. This was what used to power headlines and miners
hat lights back about 1900 or so. What is left is a mess, which one
wouldn't want in the pond, but if you could keep them separate, it is a
historical source of portable flammable gas.

Mike Patterson wrote:

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 09:37:27 -0600, John Hines
wrote:

Mike Patterson wrote:

'Cause I don't want no cutesy namby-pamby girly thing, I'm going for
-cool- not -cute-. :-)

Micro butane torches, like the pocket sized ones, and a styrofoam
collar? (harbor freight item 39440-3rah $5)


That's a thought, I actually have one of those, but I was hoping to
get the "fire on the water with no visible means of support" look.

Put it in a partially submerged container, which floats such that it
holds the flame in the right position to the water? Paint it black and
it will disappear from sight.

Just how water-insoluble is gasoline, I wonder? And how completely
would it burn off the surface of the water?

Again, look for a cleaner oil. For example, pure (clear) kerosene. The
fewer the additives, the easier it is to figure out.

You should look into the water-carbide reaction which generates
acetylene when mixed. This was what used to power headlines and miners
hat lights back about 1900 or so. What is left is a mess, which one
wouldn't want in the pond, but if you could keep them separate, it is a
historical source of portable flammable gas.

Mike Patterson wrote:

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 09:37:27 -0600, John Hines
wrote:

Mike Patterson wrote:

'Cause I don't want no cutesy namby-pamby girly thing, I'm going for
-cool- not -cute-. :-)

Micro butane torches, like the pocket sized ones, and a styrofoam
collar? (harbor freight item 39440-3rah $5)


That's a thought, I actually have one of those, but I was hoping to
get the "fire on the water with no visible means of support" look.

Put it in a partially submerged container, which floats such that it
holds the flame in the right position to the water? Paint it black and
it will disappear from sight.

Just how water-insoluble is gasoline, I wonder? And how completely
would it burn off the surface of the water?

Again, look for a cleaner oil. For example, pure (clear) kerosene. The
fewer the additives, the easier it is to figure out.

You should look into the water-carbide reaction which generates
acetylene when mixed. This was what used to power headlines and miners
hat lights back about 1900 or so. What is left is a mess, which one
wouldn't want in the pond, but if you could keep them separate, it is a
historical source of portable flammable gas.

What happens if the fire goes out -- after all, we are talking about
*water* -- wouldn't you then just have a gas leak?

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC

"Mike Patterson" wrote in
message ...
Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage
problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed,
so now I'm thinking...

How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.

I wouldn't run it all the time, but it'd be a cool effect for parties.

Would there be any adverse repercussions to the fish?

Mike
Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 22:14:35 GMT, "Anne Lurie"
wrote:

What happens if the fire goes out -- after all, we are talking about
*water* -- wouldn't you then just have a gas leak?

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC


Why yes, I would. :-)

However, I was planning to only have the flame running when I was
around to watch it anyway. Toooo much $$ otherwise.

Thanks for the input. The more problems folks think of, the more
prepared I can be.

snip
Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

John Hines wrote:

Mike Patterson wrote:


On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 09:37:27 -0600, John Hines
wrote:


Mike Patterson wrote:


'Cause I don't want no cutesy namby-pamby girly thing, I'm going for
-cool- not -cute-. :-)

Micro butane torches, like the pocket sized ones, and a styrofoam
collar? (harbor freight item 39440-3rah $5)


That's a thought, I actually have one of those, but I was hoping to
get the "fire on the water with no visible means of support" look.


Put it in a partially submerged container, which floats such that it
holds the flame in the right position to the water? Paint it black and
it will disappear from sight.

That is basically the design of the FEFD I spoke of earlier.

Just how water-insoluble is gasoline, I wonder? And how completely
would it burn off the surface of the water?

No matter what you use, it is still going to be petroleum based
and you know what happens to wild life when water and oil try to mix.


Again, look for a cleaner oil. For example, pure (clear) kerosene. The
fewer the additives, the easier it is to figure out.

even Coleman fuel will have harmful after effects.

You should look into the water-carbide reaction which generates
acetylene when mixed. This was what used to power headlines and miners
hat lights back about 1900 or so. What is left is a mess, which one
wouldn't want in the pond, but if you could keep them separate, it is a
historical source of portable flammable gas.

those miner lamps usually held about 2 oz. of carbide rock and 3-4 oz of
water
and lasted several hours. And they only produced a small brilliant
white flame.
It would probably take you about 100 lbs and 20 gals of water to generate
enough acetylene to burn about an hour.

Chagoi
http://ourkoipond.com

Mike Patterson wrote:

Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage
problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed,
so now I'm thinking...

How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.

How about a glass or plastic tube for in the water, comming up to the
surface? It should not be any more intrusive than the bubbles.